The Great AT Debate Thread

[teh_pwns_the]

Purpose

I've decided this is necessary, since we've started AT discussions in nearly every thread regardless of whether or not we are supposed to or if it even pertains to the subject at hand

This thread is for the discussion of AT's and their level of usefulness

Try to stick to one AT at a time and not just switch back and forth between them and get everyone confused

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The topics at hand

-Arrow Looping
easy to perform, hard to master
slower then shooting multiple straight arrows
can hit targets that standard arrows can not
usefulness of the tech is reduced a lot on stages with multiple platforms in the way
good to bait a dodge or shield

-Wing Dashing
can cancel out some of the weaker projectiles
can catch projectiles with it
can mess with spacing though the wind pushing and movement
punished by long range attacks
if failed, it can be troublesome
really messes with slippery characters like luigi
primarily a defensive maneuver
be careful with it around the ledge
fairly dependent on the match-up

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What we are looking for

-Useful facts about the AT
-Problems with the AT
-Situations in which the AT is good/bad


I'll probably be updating this thread when good points are brought up, but i'm not really unbiased so when somebody makes a good point you might want to bring it to my attention, since I might disagree, but that shouldnt hinder the debate

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Rules

Lets try to avoid any of the following

-Flaming
-Face Eating
-Asterisking

This is not to say that you can't debunk other ideas, just try to use facts rather then, "durr... your dumb i hate you"



So get in here all you angry folks who wont change your minds and argue your heart out

 

[Lezard]

If we are going debate about something like this, lets make it meaningfull which mean there should rules. I believ that everybody has a lot to learn from this thread, so rock on...Rogue were are you i say Wingdash, Wingdash, wingdas, wingdash lololol

 

[Byuusan]

Well maybe i'll start with arrow looping


-Useful facts about Arrow looping

-Great mindgames
-easy to do
-lots of variation to the AT

-Problems with Arrow looping

Takes alot of time - Can easily shoot 3 more arrows during this time
Easy to miss
Takes alot of practice to use despite the level of skills require to use it

-Situations in which the AT is good/bad

- Places where arrows/pit can't reach in time for extra damage, if it won't kill, but evne then it might not be in time anyway.

I personally only use arrow looping as a taunt, and 1/2 loops for reaching people who too high to reach (Im lazy and don';t shoot upwards.)

 

[rinoH]

wing dash sucks you can get punished so easily for using it almost never useful

 

[Recoil]

Arrow Looping is pretty much pointless except that its flashy and your opponent will have a hard time predicting it. In the time you loop it, you can shoot another arrow. I'm not saying never to use it, but comes in handy to know it.

Winddashing is meh for me, its a purely defensive spacing move. The benefits are (sorta) meh and the risk is pretty high if you mess up.

tldr; ats are tools to help you. not basics.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Arrow Looping

-Useful facts about the AT

-Using it at the right time with good precision can pick off ledgecampers like snipers can towards machine gunners.
-Decently good for mindgames.
-Easy to learn

-Problems with the AT

-Hard to be precise with it
-Time-consuming
-Needs constant practice, no matter of your skill level

-Situations in which the AT is good/bad

-Arrow Looping can be good against campers if u can time it right
-Arrow looping can be troublesome against speedy chars due to it's time comsumption, and smaller chars to make it harder to hit em.
-Arrow looping is useless on stages with too many obstacles that keep Pit from looping well, or at all, such as Shadow Moses, or Brinstar.



Wingdashing
-Useful facts about the AT

-Can cancel out some weak projectiles
-A means of mindgames
-Whenever you do break the opponent's shield.... if they were already near the stage, try pushing em off the stage for an instant KO. If further away from the stage, use it to push em near the ledge, but not off of it to give ur KO move (preferred B-air) a better chance of killing the opponent.

-Problems with the AT

-Punishable by long-ranged attacks
-Punishable if you dont do it correctly in terms of timing the D-air to perform it

-Situations in which the AT is good/bad

-When trying to get out of certain jabs, try doing this to not only push the opponent away, but hopefully get a counter attack going, and Lezard knows about this.
-There is about 1 or 2 frames that leave u in the "Pit's in his Up-B" state, but hopefully u wont get hit off the stage in that small amount of time, or u cant recover.
-It's preferred that you dont do this near the ledge for if you fall with the D-air, you aint coming back.

 

[Lezard]

Naa dude you became immature when you insulted my intelligences when i became tire of trying to decipher you metaphoric tone. I asked you to cut the fluff and speak specifically to the situation and you obviously couldnt do it. Than you state a soliloquy saying that a combination of my tainted experiences caused me to think incorrectly upon the current situation.

If your actually willing to cut the fluff we can make progress. I will state my argument and you state yours.

The current use of Pits ATs are incorrect and when used correctly majority of the time there are better options. The way you portray wingdashing in your compilation videos i feel would not have sufficent rewards. As apposed to say powershielding a move. Instead of wingdashing and attaching to get out of multihitters you can SDI out of either end and punish more effectively.

What is your counter argument?

Hey i have an idea, its a way we could accurately debate weather or not wingdash usefull or not, you want see? And i was planning on starting a thread for both of us and useing each other video as reference but teh_pwns_the beat me to it however, you still want to see my idea? i thing there is alot can be learn from it. I have learn alot by created the model

 

[Rogue Pit]

*Tire* idk what your exactly saying but go for it. I'm going to sleep...I'll yell at people tomorrow after work.

 

[yummynbeefy]

mmm alright imma give my input on bolth at's

arrow looping
-this is imo one of the most effective mindgames ever you can bait a spotdodge, get them to put their sheild up and punish with a grab, or just hit them and make them mad it also combos

but its very punishable so only do it when you think you can get those shots in

wingdashing
-this is really matchup dependent in matchups like the ike matchup it really doesnt have much effect
but if your talking about the ice climber matchup for instance you have many many more options with wingdashing

careful though i have been punished for this

 

[teh_pwns_the]

updated some of the information you guys brought up

haha as soon as i make a thread for it the debate stops, how aggravating haha

 

[Coffee™]

There is nothing really to debate lol. Arrow Looping is useless 90% of the time its used and Wingdashing is good but situational.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

There is nothing really to debate lol. Arrow Looping is useless 90% of the time its used and Wingdashing is good but situational.

hmm so do you think that it has just been used incorrectly then, since 10% of the time its useful?

 

[Coffee™]

hmm so do you think that it has just been used incorrectly then, since 10% of the time its useful?

I think the times that its actually useful are very minimal as imo it tends to only be useful when you're opponent is at specific distances and angles or is somewhere where no other move will reach like sometimes on Delfino or PS1.

Thats about the extent of its usefulness though. Its not a matter of using it correctly as its not hard to use it correctly. Just a matter of if its better to use it in the specific situation and most of the time its just not.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

I think the times that its actually useful are very minimal as imo it tends to only be useful when you're opponent is at specific distances and angles or is somewhere where no other move will reach like sometimes on Delfino or PS1.

Thats about the extent of its usefulness though. Its not a matter of using it correctly as its not hard to use it correctly. Just a matter of if its better to use it in the specific situation and most of the time its just not.

didnt we just have a debate about whether or not it was useful at specific times, and i listed specific angles and distances, and then you kept arguing about it. and doesnt that enlarged boldfaced part just say exactly what i was arguing?

 

[Coffee™]

didnt we just have a debate about whether or not it was useful at specific times, and i listed specific angles and distances, and then you kept arguing about it. and doesnt that enlarged boldfaced part just say exactly what i was arguing?

No. You listed ONE specific angle and ONE specific distance which were wrong to begin with.

 

[Byuusan]

the only time i cna think of arrow looping being useful, trying to get back on the ledge, that right.

If i shoot an arrow, miss, happens to go upwards, and i go off the ledge, i loop it if the char slow enough b/c if it hits, it stalls them long enough, and b/c i use x/y to jump and turn off tap jump, the obvious look at arrow looping doesn't appear.

that my only experance of arrow looping being useful

 

[shinyspoon42]

Arrow looping is kickass to show off with, but really useless in a real match. You can shoot them several times instead.

Wing dashing seems to have more potential, like wing dashing over diddy's nanners to pick 'em up, or just floating around shoving them with your pretty wings. Pretty much not useful in most situations though.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

No. You listed ONE specific angle and ONE specific distance which were wrong to begin with.

then do you care to give some of your specific angles and distances

those measurements were approximate, and of course itll be different for different chars, i thought you would have had the commone sense to know that

 

[Coffee™]

then do you care to give some of your specific angles and distances

those measurements were approximate, and of course itll be different for different chars, i thought you would have had the commone sense to know that

It had nothing to do with common sense. You presented an example and I told you it was wrong. And no I don't really care to give specifics for angles and distances because you're hardly ever going to meet up with those situations and even then it would probably be easier to just reset your spacing so you have better options.

On another note do you even place in tournies where you're from?

 

[teh_pwns_the]

It had nothing to do with common sense. You presented an example and I told you it was wrong. And no I don't really care to give specifics for angles and distances because you're hardly ever going to meet up with those situations and even then it would probably be easier to just reset your spacing so you have better options.

On another note do you even place in tournies where you're from?

haha german tourneys? really would be really ****ing odd, i dont speak perfect german, and the smash scene around here isnt the biggest. tourneys are no where

i play with a few kids from school everynow and then, and i come in 1st or 2nd normally. and then i play with a smash friend pretty frequently which i normally only barely come out on top, but hes pretty good.

uhm so to answer your question i dont attend tournies over here, but ill be back in the states for good in august, so we will see how i measure up when i get there


and it seems to me like you dont know these angles you are talking about and that you are jsut trollin

 

[Coffee™]

haha german tourneys? really would be really ****ing odd, i dont speak perfect german, and the smash scene around here isnt the biggest. tourneys are no where

i play with a few kids from school everynow and then, and i come in 1st or 2nd normally. and then i play with a smash friend pretty frequently which i normally only barely come out on top, but hes pretty good.

uhm so to answer your question i dont attend tournies over here, but ill be back in the states for good in august, so we will see how i measure up when i get there


and it seems to me like you dont know these angles you are talking about and that you are jsut trollin

Nah, I clearly never know what I'm talking about and you're also obviously the better player. Anyways what part of the states?

 

[KY_Des]

Arrow Looping - Mindgames
Wingdashing - Spacing

Discussion over =]

 

[teh_pwns_the]

Nah, I clearly never know what I'm talking about and you're also obviously the better player. Anyways what part of the states?

no its not that you never know what you are talking about, i actually agree with you on lots of things, its just that you tend to say negative stuff without backing it up and i don't like that

whoever the better player is is irrelevant, so i wouldnt worry too much about that, especially when you have never seen me play before

i'll be in fort collins colorado

 

[Rogue Pit]

I am just in a sarcastic mood, can't help it . I'll be serious in my summary

If we are going debate about something like this, lets make it meaningfull which mean there should rules. I believ that everybody has a lot to learn from this thread, so rock on...Rogue were are you i say Wingdash, Wingdash, wingdas, wingdash lololol

Wingdashing, constantly like you do in your videos is unnecessary. Granted it has it's uses, but it is portrayed incorrectly. If something is useful, it would have to create positive outcomes. When you wingdash it has neutral outcomes and sometimes negative ones. Which is why you suck xD.

Well maybe i'll start with arrow looping


-Useful facts about Arrow looping

-Great mindgames
-easy to do
-lots of variation to the AT

It's not a mindgame if it's seen coming a mile away, It may be easy to do, but if someone jumps... than you miss. Also variation of arrow looping just make things dumber.

-Situations in which the AT is good/bad

- Places where arrows/pit can't reach in time for extra damage, if it won't kill, but evne then it might not be in time anyway.

I personally only use arrow looping as a taunt, and 1/2 loops for reaching people who too high to reach (Im lazy and don';t shoot upwards.)

Straight arrows/curved fulfill those functions WAAAAY better than looping.

wing dash sucks you can get punished so easily for using it almost never useful

It should be used like wavedashing, but for only certain times. If you get punished, than you did it wrong. Although majority of the time Powershield would be the better option.

Arrow Looping is pretty much pointless except that its flashy and your opponent will have a hard time predicting it. In the time you loop it, you can shoot another arrow. I'm not saying never to use it, but comes in handy to know it.

Winddashing is meh for me, its a purely defensive spacing move. The benefits are (sorta) meh and the risk is pretty high if you mess up.

tldr; ats are tools to help you. not basics.

I agree, also could you take my vid out your sig

Arrow Looping

-Useful facts about the AT

-Using it at the right time with good precision can pick off ledgecampers like snipers can towards machine gunners.
-Decently good for mindgames.
-Easy to learn

If they on the ledge too long, than you Stagespike or Spike them.... why would you arrow loop?

-Problems with the AT

-Hard to be precise with it
-Time-consuming
-Needs constant practice, no matter of your skill level

It's not worth the time it takes to get accuracy with.

-Situations in which the AT is good/bad

-Arrow Looping can be good against campers if u can time it right
-Arrow looping can be troublesome against speedy chars due to it's time comsumption, and smaller chars to make it harder to hit em.
-Arrow looping is useless on stages with too many obstacles that keep Pit from looping well, or at all, such as Shadow Moses, or Brinstar.

Why would arrow looping be good against campers?
Your second point is why it's pretty much useless.
Shadow Moses is a banned stage, and yea brinstar.

Wingdashing
-Useful facts about the AT

-Can cancel out some weak projectiles
-A means of mindgames
-Whenever you do break the opponent's shield.... if they were already near the stage, try pushing em off the stage for an instant KO. If further away from the stage, use it to push em near the ledge, but not off of it to give ur KO move (preferred B-air) a better chance of killing the opponent.

Powershield to Cancel projectiles....
Your third point is something I do but never showed anyone.... I wanted to save it for a livestream tourney match

Hey i have an idea, its a way we could accurately debate weather or not wingdash usefull or not, you want see? And i was planning on starting a thread for both of us and useing each other video as reference but teh_pwns_the beat me to it however, you still want to see my idea? i thing there is alot can be learn from it. I have learn alot by created the model

? <--- question mark...

mmm alright imma give my input on bolth at's

arrow looping
-this is imo one of the most effective mindgames ever you can bait a spotdodge, get them to put their sheild up and punish with a grab, or just hit them and make them mad it also combos

but its very punishable so only do it when you think you can get those shots in

Give me a legit situation where you can get a shot in when it is obviously the best thing you can do.

wingdashing
-this is really matchup dependent in matchups like the ike matchup it really doesnt have much effect
but if your talking about the ice climber matchup for instance you have many many more options with wingdashing

careful though i have been punished for this

You have been punished... that is reason why it isn't a very good option. But okay against characters like Luigi and ICs it would have positive outcomes. Also why not ike?

updated some of the information you guys brought up

haha as soon as i make a thread for it the debate stops, how aggravating haha

It's because everyone was waiting for me

the only time i cna think of arrow looping being useful, trying to get back on the ledge, that right.

If i shoot an arrow, miss, happens to go upwards, and i go off the ledge, i loop it if the char slow enough b/c if it hits, it stalls them long enough, and b/c i use x/y to jump and turn off tap jump, the obvious look at arrow looping doesn't appear.

that my only experance of arrow looping being useful

I see what your mean but on a higher level. When you DI you obviously DI toward the corner. At your angle above the stage, You should shoot arrows straight than angled downward. You get more arrows off, and you shouldn't have to worry about recovering since your so high up. But that's with RPDI xD.

Wing dashing seems to have more potential, like wing dashing over diddy's nanners to pick 'em up, or just floating around shoving them with your pretty wings. Pretty much not useful in most situations though.

I agree that picking up items like Gyro and Bananas is a useful turn-out for wingdashing instead of having to pause and pick one up.

haha german tourneys? really would be really ****ing odd, i dont speak perfect german, and the smash scene around here isnt the biggest. tourneys are no where

i play with a few kids from school everynow and then, and i come in 1st or 2nd normally. and then i play with a smash friend pretty frequently which i normally only barely come out on top, but hes pretty good.

uhm so to answer your question i dont attend tournies over here, but ill be back in the states for good in august, so we will see how i measure up when i get there


and it seems to me like you dont know these angles you are talking about and that you are jsut trollin

No johnz, host a tourney.

Nah, I clearly never know what I'm talking about and you're also obviously the better player.?

*sigh* it's true. Don't lose to Random Ness players xD.

Arrow Looping - Mindgames
Wingdashing - Spacing

Discussion over =]

YOUR WRONG! WRONG! EVERYTHING IS WRONG!!!! WRONG!!! Wingdashing is for the ladies



Alright so I realized that lately I've been bias with post just in an immature attempt to prove other wrong and say I was right.

So here's it the whole truth and what not.......I like eggs.

ALSO!
Arrow looping is a time consumer.
Scenarios

Both on the ground
When your opponent is on the ground, and your on the ground and you arrow loop, you can be punished, you need to follow a distinct pattern of movements to maintain the arrow, If you release, than you proving that it is not very useless. If you don't and you have to keep that movement, than you can either Shield or Spot dodge in place, each being not a good option. If you jump you can get Uaired.

Opponent in the air
If the person is in the air and your trying to hit them, than you can shoot curved arrows at them. Majority of the time curved arrows will be able to reach the spot. IF A CURVED ARROW CAN'T than they are very close to you and you should be able to bait an airdodge.

If your both in the air, than the same thing occurs above.

If your in the air... than you should be worrying about getting from above the character since pit is at an extreme disadvantage.

Wingdashing.... Wingdashing........Wingdashing.....
It isn't useless. It has it's perks, but its used too much and ineffectively. Picking up items, pushing people away when they get too close, stopping aerial approachs, that's cool. Still I say it again, people use it wrong.

Stopping projectiles? No just powershield.
For Mindgames? WHAT MINDGAMES?!
For getting out of multihitting attacks like Lezard does? NO smash DI, you get out faster and you can punish the opponent.
Pushing people off the ledge? Sometimes... I can't knock it, that's badass. but still the way it's portayed makes it look useless. Just be smart, use it intelligently and know when not to use it. Brush up on fundamentals and you'll be a better player. Mashashi is a beast, he doesn't need wingdashing and he's the only melee veteran to use pit. So learn from him.

**** I'm sexy
Alright I'm going out be back later.

 

[yummynbeefy]

tru i dont really use wingdashing much at all only when i see a good oportunity its more of a mixup for me

 

[teh_pwns_the]

and the award for longest message ever.... EVER goes toooo

*zelda you acquired a new item sound* Rogue

yea i should host a tourney, but like ive said before, only about 4 real deal smashers in my school, theres alot of people who say they are good but arent
(this one girl said she could beat me, so i bet a buck on it, i was at a friends and had already had ten beers and some jager, still took the challenge, i also had to play with only a wiimote, no nunchuck (wiimote and chuck is my normal setup) and i still 4 stocked her ( i know im wierd and play 4 stock, i actually prefer three but my smash buddy insists on 4 haha)

anyways the point of this little anecdote, is that it is difficult to judge who is the real deal without having seen them play, and since almsot everyone over here thinks they are the real deal the tourney would end up being me and the three other people who are good ****** our way through the pools, and then duking it out haha

oh god there was this other kid who was saying he was really good with pit, his friends backed him up on that.... the only thing you need to know about how that match went was that one of his comments was, "wow how did you make your arrow change direction" *facepalm*

but yea i really do want to go to a tourney

 

[Snopy]

If you want to go to a tourney, why don't you? There are Brawl Tourneys in Germany. The German Smash scene is pretty huge and not that bad (Well, if you compare it with other european countries), even tough it's most time just online.

Ehhh, but I guess I'm off-topic. Anyway, in a serious Match, I rarely use any ATs like Arrow Looping or WingDashing, as it's often too risky. However, I actually think very simpel/easy Techniques like Arrow Stalling/Dancing or Wing Stalling are more useful. Basics > all.

 

[SuSa]

I loop when the situation arrives:

1) I miss a shot
2) They charged me
3) I start to loop + run away
4) I carefully move and aim the arrow at the same time
5) Arrow baits reaction to dodge
6) I punish reaction (attack if sidestepped/rolled/airdodged, grab if shielded)
7) I continue to loop said arrow if it missed - or shoot another.


Also Rouge, when you are in the air (granted you are high enough) you can use a "knot" looped arrow to go below you as you fall as extra protection. (Assuming you are high enough and have an extra jump) It's just another way of getting down for me.

No skill is "to hard" to be bothered to learn.

 

[Lezard]

? <--- question mark...

This is a model will be use to determind weather or not wingdash improve pit's game, furthur more this ananlyse can be dont by anyone
And remember this is between me and Rogue Pit but anyone can take part
Note: Watche Video first to get a better understand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I556Q2j2d78

On WingDash side
this is the basic
Wingdash(-) Its went a wingdash is completely meaningless its a state ware you get hit out of it

WingDash(N) its went wingdash is use wethout gaining or losing any advantange

Wingdash(+) is went wingdash is use to gaint advantge (of does it)


Now this is where it get complicated

Wingdash(+)>WIngdash(-) this is were wingdash is use incorrect
Wingdash(+)>wingdash(N) this is were wingdash is use semi incorrect

Wingdash(n)>wingdash(-) incorrect wingdashing
Wingdash(n)>Wingdash(+) succesful wingdash

Wingdash(-)>wingDash(n) correct or semi correct wingdash
Wingdash(-)>wingDash(+) an Ideal wingdash

On the None wingdash Side
Prefably movement(-) this is where you do a move in place of a wingdash and get punish. example, Snake try smash

attack and you try smash attact after and you end up getting, where wingdash would have push him and sent him out of

range, for is smash attack to would not connect

Prefable Movement(N) this is where to move you attemp doesnt give or take no vantage point

Prefable Movement(+) this is a absolute move that event if you opponent try to attack you, they still get hit

instead of doing a wingdash which will bring the battle to a Neatrual position

The complex part

Prefable movement(+)>Prefable movement(-) this where you try to do a move "within the frames of a wingdash movement"

and get punish a common example you try a smash attack your Op. shield and grab you

Prefable movement(+)>Prefable movement(N) this where you try an attact "within the total frames of the wingdash" and

your Op. either block your attack and do nothing or your attack miss etc.


Prefable movement(N)>Prefable movement(-)"within the total frames of the wingdash" a neutrual state like at begining

of a match and you try to roll or do something and you get hit. Or standing facing each other you try a dash attack

and get hit, you get the drift

Prefable Movement(N)Prefable movement(+) "within the total frames of the wingdash" for example you are facing each

other your Op. try to Sh Fair, Nair etc. and do a Utilt or you just move back and grab etc.


Prefable movement(-)Prefable movement(N) "within the total frames of a wingdash" your oppenent hit ones and try a follow up, you try attack after and you both end uup getting it
Prefable movement(-)Prefable movement(+) within the total frames of a wingdash"[/color][/color] this cant be counter attack by

your Op.




Now video reference, you going randomly select one of my Video and then you are going counter it with a move or a

series of moves but the catche is any movement you deside to use cant excceed the frames of my "Wingdashing" it has

to be within the frames. And if its a Wing(-)>Wing(+)or a ideal wingdash Whichever counter you choose as to do take

advantage of the match

The secound rule is time, time is important, if you are going do something that take twis the amount of time, then

that will be invalid, meaning that this couldn't be a adeqayte counter since it give the Op. more time to react

Basiclly i want people to watche my videos and prove to me that most of my wingdashing is useless, for example 1:23

to 1:25 is a Wingdash(+)>WIngdash(-) or W(+)>W(-) and replace it with a move thats "within the frames of my

wingdash" which is equall to a P(n)>P(+)

And we will do the same for Rogue Pit on the None wingdash side by useing his matches as reference

And frame data will be used for factual information
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222361

 

[teh_pwns_the]

If you want to go to a tourney, why don't you? There are Brawl Tourneys in Germany. The German Smash scene is pretty huge and not that bad (Well, if you compare it with other european countries), even tough it's most time just online.

Ehhh, but I guess I'm off-topic. Anyway, in a serious Match, I rarely use any ATs like Arrow Looping or WingDashing, as it's often too risky. However, I actually think very simpel/easy Techniques like Arrow Stalling/Dancing or Wing Stalling are more useful. Basics > all.

i just dont know enough german people, and my internet is to ****ty for any lagless play online, like how many german smashers are there in the vicinity of kaiserslautern? thats why i was thinking jsut doing it with the americans in teh area since my english is much better then my german, and i dont wanna have to spend the whole day translating at a dual language tourney

i do have some money matches going down with two people, ten dollars for each set of three haha, oh silly scrubs about to lose their cash


anyways i should really get around to updating this thread, haha im a lazy *** though

 

[Rogue Pit]

I'll get around to doing that lezard. Whenever I get the time.

 

[Lezard]

I'll get around to doing that lezard. Whenever I get the time.

Ok Rogue

 

[Arzengel]

BTW, I suggest since we are discussing AT's one at a time. To editi n the title whats the current AT discussed. Just me.

 

[Suyon]

We're still going about ATs when one year has passed. The only good ATs here are Wing Refresh and Wingdash.
Arrow Looping is not great. The only time I've seen Arrow looping amazing and startling to me when I played someone was Hayang. Charging one arrow while looping another arrow. Yeah, Admiral Pit has nice arrow moves but look I don't have good arrow accuracy and precision and I don't plan on learning it when I can just curve 3 arrows at one person during the duration of one arrow looping. If you have good accuracy *applauds*

Wingdashing-Yes it has lots of potential. However one should NEVER use it in a match when they can't master using it. What I mean is landing it correctly. No forward B, no bad landing (landing on knee or back or whatever), and no jumpingtoo high. Yeah you can also grab items such as nana, gyro, and grenades even though I don't know why you would do that. Also it is possible to negate projectiles except bombs and grenades but that is so hard to do...if you can do it *applauds*. I also heard someone using Wingdashing against IC's? Why would you use that against an IC. Do you want to get grabbed if you mess up or spaced wrong?

Wing Refresh-Yeah it's good. It can save you jumps when you are chasing off stage. Even if you get hit while using WoI you still get your jumps and you get ANOTHER WoI but it'll be short.

Angelic Step/Craq Walk- No I do not mean when one is spotdodging. Easiest to use but people can see that coming. Use Craq Walking after using any move, landing from a jump or aerial with no landing lag, and just jogging not walking or running ( I dunno what you call it here).

Also you can use your WoI in the air like how Sagemoon does. While in the air use WoI then use an aerial. Don't use it all the time or you're opponent will read your move and punish or worst part is you get hit while using WoI and get knocked towards off stage. Yeah you're basically dead. Another way is use WoI on the ground and use an aerial immediately.

Yeah I did take info from Rogue's post and I don't care...nyarg. But seriously, do you see Masashi using any of these ATs? No, you do not. Does he know how to use these ATs? Absolutely, I've seen him arrow loop like once only and wingdash once as well when he killed his opponents. But he probably doesn't know how to use these correctly. Does it matter? No, he doesn't even use them and he is NUMBER 2 IN JAPAN. He even played melee and was a great player in melee. He knows how to wavedash and such so he should know the effects of Wingdashing as well. But he still doesn't use any ATs. Would Masashi do well in the USA? No, he'd get *****...hell we may be even overestimating him but I dunno but he's still a great player.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Okay I decided, i really didnt care. Peoples mind will change, might not. Solo Tiempo Puede Contar.

 

[Tikun]

Can we start posting in other laguages? x) I'd be so much more usefull in here =T **** culture walls.
First of all:
I actually read all of Suyon's post, and agreed with most of it. But i must deny some of your oppinions, son. Such as while you're talking about Masashi. Different people look foward different things. I my oppinion, Pit has one of the best Combo/Air movement in brawl. And AT's help a lot making your gameplay look fancy or even mindblowing against apprentice players. (That's why so many start by playing with the little angel xP )

Masashi was one of a hell mind game. For ME that's the main cause that he's so overrated. He saw the pits potencial of a spammer and good spacing/reflecting/gimping/KOing that he doesn't need the AT's for getting a good position on the japanese top players.

I can't see myself playing like him, it pisses me off and i would compare myself with a MK-****** that has no abilities (I'm NOT saying tha masashi has no skills). Personaly, i prefer the ... fancyness xD

Sorry for the english >P

 

[Suyon]

So you would prefer fancy. Many people that go straight for pit and for ATs just fail badly. They don't know the basics for Pit and will just get punished badly. You also said that you would be like a MK player because you don't use any ATs. And lol fancy battle just made me think of Pokemon..beauty contest or whatever....just wow lol.

Another reason why Masashi does not use ATs is probably because he would get punished badly for it for just a simple mistake. Wing Dashing has more risks than Wave dashing.

 

[droughboi]

I understand both suyon & tikuns points here. the thing is, id rather be fancy too. I love using my AT's. what's the point of having them if you wont use them? Fancy doesnt meen stupid. Just be smart about how YOU as a player can use them. If you can't do a specific AT then hell.... dont use it. but if you can do one with your eyes closed and apply it to the right situation without screwing up your match then go for it.

i didnt read all the posts o.o so uhm.... yea.

 

[shinyspoon42]

I have changed my opinions since I last posted here.


Arrow looping- If everyone starts to perfect shield and air dodge your arrows, then arrow looping can help. No, I don't mean looping your arrow again. When you arrow loop, as you direct the arrow, start charging another. Then just after the first arrow you looped goes past, release the second to chase the first. Direct it at your opponent, and start dashing towards them. If they shield, they have to leave their shield up to get both, and you can come in to punish. If they spotdodge, the second one will hit them. If they roll away, they will get hit by the second arrow, maybe even the first. If the roll towards, you can hit them. If they jump, bend the arrows to hit them as they leave the ground. If they airdodge, the second arrow hits.

Arrow looping if used correctly is an excellent setup. However, unless your opponent is dodging/blocking all your arrows, its never worth it. Its a flashy technique that is applicable only if your opponent is playing a perfect defensive game. However, the looping/double arrows is great for mindgames, and showing off.

Wingdashing- The most common wingdashing applications are its worst. People like to use it as an alternate to their shield, or to move around with it pointlessly. Wingdashing out of an attack is worse then DIing, Wingdashing into an attack is worse then just walking up and hitting them. Wingdashing is, however good for the diddy matchup, because if he leaves a nanner on the ground you can quickly wingdash over it and pick it up. Its good for spacing, when you use the wind to get them to whiff an attack and then you punish. Its also good for moving an incapitated character next to the ledge so you can kill them, useful in teams when you have a teammate who can knock down your oppoent such as diddy with his bananas, or wario with his farts. It has quite a few uses in teams, actually. Wingdashing over your teammates nanners then nailing your opponent with them works well. Wingdashing to move your opponent nearer to your teammate while catching the nanner they slipped on also works well. Wingdashing the opponent into your teammates attack is hilarious. Wingdashing to keep the opponent near your teammate by using wind to cancel the knockback off a throw, allowing for infinites. Wingdashing can be used to explode snakes mines, or to push his grenades back towards him. Wingdashing to simply be flashy is also common, but really stupid.

Wingdashing is a fancy technique that looks cool and can work in place of other things like shielding, but the alternative is generally safer. It has very few actually good applications, and the best is just to help in the diddy matchup. The wind push can be used, and it can help to avoid attacks, but a shield works in most situations. However, for techniques that look cool, wingdashing can't be beat, and when worked into an aggressive pits game it is impressive and looks dangerous. If mastered, this is a cool and fancy alternative to many options, can work in your favor and is a handy mindgame as well. Rarely worth it for most pits however, and not in competitive play.

 

[Tikun]

You also said that you would be like a MK player because you don't use any ATs. And lol fancy battle just made me think of Pokemon..beauty contest or whatever....just wow lol.

ROFL, acctualy i remember that episode.
But that wasn`t my point and also not what i said about MK players.

I said that if i played as masashi, i would FEEL like one MK player. Just facing the game as a chance of winning, that's not the point for me Measuring abilities is really funny and healthy as well.
And AT's make the equilibrium trun on for my side =]