Data The Ganon Chaingrabbing Guide

[XZalla]

this is a good guide!

 

[hilaxial]

sweet guide. i went and tried it...man, so ****ing hard cause ganon's grab range is mad short, gotta look for the DI immediately, but i'm working on it. problem though - link can simply jump up and away after like 30 percent or so, is this because i'm not doing the grab quickly enough?

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, you have to grab sooner if that's the case. Higher up in damage you want to grab as early as you can while still getting the grab to connect. You should be grabbing the very bottom of their sprite not the middle.

 

[NightmareOnAnyStreet]

awesome thx for posting

 

[O D I N]

Magus, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Capt. Falcon be chain'd too?

The other day I was playing against my friend's Falcon, and u-throw'd him a few times in a chain grab.

He wasn't DI-ing very well, but it was still doable.

Thoughts? N00b punches thrown at my direction?

 

[Magus420]

It works if they DI any way but fully away. If and when they do DI away you won't be able to do anything directly out of it at all though.

The same applies to every other character really. Falcon can legitimately follow up his u-throw when they DI away on a lot of characters because he's fast enough (dash, jump startup, jump distance, air speed) to catch up to them in time by the time the stun ends. I'm unaware of anyone that can't either jump/attack/dodge/tech well before you can follow up Ganon's u-throw when DI'ed away, and DI'ed otherwise generally only really works on mid/semi-fast/fast fallers.

U-throw is still pretty good against fastfallers if there's not enough room to DI away and tech away though, since they either DI into a guaranteed follow up, away into a tech/flop that can be punished regardless of what they do near the edge of the stage, or are sometimes forced to land on a platform that you can follow them up on.

 

[Omega Ownage]

hahaha thats awesome do u mind if i put one of those in my Sigs

 

[C 3]

This is amazing, thanks a lot for this.

 

[7734]

Very informative thread. Ganon pwns all!

 

[Kman25]

I didn't See Captain Falcon on that list, He cant be chain grabbed?

 

[ZoSo]

Hey, this thread is still amazing.

 

[UnChienAndalousa]

This thread rules. Magus, you're my hero.

I want that purple stuff.

 

[Devilution]

I didn't See Captain Falcon on that list, He cant be chain grabbed?

Yeah I've chaingrabbed falcon before...not that much...but I've done it.

also Magus... I LOVE YOU!!!! ~<3~!!!!

 

[Magus420]

You can regrab Falcon if they happen to DI a d/u-throw the wrong way, but that isn't a chaingrab. You'll never be able to regrab him with behind DI on a d-throw, and never be able to regrab away DI on an u-throw.

 

[Devilution]

Ahhh that explains it.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Just a quickie before I go. Up+Throw = chaingrab with Fox and Falco? I've done it a little but then I would go back to the D+Throw b/c I fear they can get out too easily.

 

[Magus420]

If they DI the u-throw away you won't be able to follow up with anything and can only techchase them. Same with every other character and the ones that fall slower and don't have to tech can act before you can reach them and hit them since Ganon runs and jumps so slow compared to CF who can follow up his very similar u-throw fast enough to combo off of.

When facing a platform you can u-throw to either have them land on it if they DI away and hit them out of their getup or be able to follow up the u-throw when they DI any other way.

 

[h1roshi]

wow, good ish on all the detailed stuff. this is pretty well done. pretty useful...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Bailey]

Well Magus the last 2 days of me answering Ganon questions and then this thread looks like I got Ganon back. MM at the next tournament we are at. GANON DITTOS

 

[Magus420]

If I have the extra money on me to put up for one sure. Could use the practice since I don't ditto very often really. We could just play them for fun too. Doesn't have to be a MM.

 

[Bailey]

Yea that is true. I will probably **** up during a MM anyway. Also wow at the fact I always used Down on the Joystick to try and WD on the stage from ledge. I totally forgot about C-Stick Back. So once I said hey let's try using the C-Stick Back for it I can do it now.

Long Story Short:

I = Scrub

 

[Dragmire]

i didn't see is marth chain grabbable same with mario I seem to have trouble with those two

 

[Magus420]

The big colorful list of the characters and the percents is right at the top. It's difficult to miss =P

 

[icethatclimbs]

omfg i love this guide this has helped me soooooo much

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

i know this is a very old bump but:
can't bowser up-b out of the cg earlier? or does the stun last long enough? (despite how long the throw animiation lasts on bowser)

 

[Magus420]

If he could escape it'd be with a jump, and not an up-b. Up-b doesn't have invincibility in the air. The jump-out percent should be accurate as far as escaping at the end of the range if that's what you mean.

For escaping at the beginning or the range, IIRC you don't need to jc grab to regrab behind for awhile which allows it to work at the lowest percents (otherwise he'd hit the ground before you could grab, since the Ganon vs Ganon needs to be frame perfect on the jc grab behind in this range and the throw has 1 less frame advantage on Bowser).

If Bowser does have a chance to get a jump off at the point Ganon needs to do the jc grab behind, I doubt it'd get him out of range anyway since I can't imagine the opening being much more than 1 frame and he'd be too deep into his grab range to get out of the way in that time unless he's far away enough horizontally to get out to the side by jumping away.

If I remember to I'll look for a possible opening at the jc grab threshold next time I have AR booted up. I did Doc's recently in a lot of detail, and he had some of these holes in the ranges at low percents on the 2 highest weight lag groups right around that point. Doc's d-throw also has 2 more frames of lag on Bowser compared to Ganon's though.

 

[Magus420]

Checked it. Even at 0% Ganon can connect with a JC grab behind before Bowser gets out of stun. Ganon gets enough extra advantage on his d-throw compared to Doc's for weight to not matter as far as stun goes. Ganon's is +10 at 0% on Bowser (enough time to get a JC grab behind out before stun ends), while Doc's is +8 at 0% (not enough time, and remains sketchy where JC grabs are required since the extra frames of dash distance needed to reach him increases at a similar rate to the increased stun with added damage).

 

[MoblinMan]

In soviet melee, ganon chain-grab YOU!


I'm sorry. That was bad. :/

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo magus, and others, idk if ya'll know, but it takes two frames to turn around

there's a frame where you look like you turn around, but you really haven't turned yet. if you try to jc grab on this frame, you'll see yourself turn, and then turn back around and grab.

its a rather annoying frame.

 

[Magus420]

If you see yourself beginning to turn then turn back to the original direction when you jump that's the laggy turnaround, and you did not move the stick fast enough. You have to mash it pretty hard to make sure you get it, especially if you have a controller that is sensitive to any amount of tilt and/or has a fair amount of resistance. You need to go from neutral to about halfway within 1/60 second.

The change direction state during a turn can happen on frame 1 if the stick is past the dash threshold at the same time you enter the turn action (dashing behind or pivot jumping on frame 2), but if the stick is positioned anything less than that on frame 1 the opportunity to turn around in the turn action closes until the 9th frame (dashing behind or pivot jumping on the 9th). The fast turnaround into dash is 1 frame slower than dashing forward (1 frame in turn action), and the laggy one is 8 slower (8 frames in turn action).


Instant Change Direction on Turn to JC Grab

(Dash begins on frame 2)


Delayed Change Direction on Turn to JC Grab

(He doesn't begin dashing until frame 9)


Instant Change Direction on Turn to Pivot Jump B-Air

(He's considered turned around after frame 1 so jumping after then will have him be facing backwards)


Delayed Change Direction on Turn to Failed Pivot Jump

(Notice how if you jump before frame 9 on the delayed change direction you're still considered facing forward. The animation just looks like you're facing backwards but technically you are not since the change direction didn't go through, and won't be able to again until frame 9)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh wow, i don't have my cube, but those gifs make a lot of sense.

so i've got to hit it hard enough to dash on frame 2, force the turn on frame 1? i don't think i've ever been doing that...and i've still been able to cg sheik most of the time LOL.

i started doing that kind of jump when i was trying to see if auto cancelled uair -> pivot bair could work. however, that last gif kept happening; i kept getting the fair lol.

my controller has quite notable resistance, so i guess i've just gotta start using it more and more. for the purpose of beating pp/other NC falcos, i really wanna get better at the falco cg.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Wow amazing post Magus never dissapoints.

 

[-ACE-]

Every Magus post is like a melee thanksgiving lol.

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, for spacies and at low/mid damage on heavier characters like Ganon and Link you need to get that instant turn to be able to get them in time with the JC grab when they DI behind you.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, when i was practicing it earlier, i was definitely questioning whether the cg existed. now i know i just need to focus harder and move it.

Thanks a ton, magus.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

double post, but nobody would see this if i edited:

is it possible to get a standing grab if you do the fast turnaround? since the dash starts on frame two, wouldn't you have to do a JC grab? and if so, do you end up losing the frame where you start the jump (even though you gained 7 frames by doing the faster turn)?

 

[Magus420]

You can actually do a turn around standing grab without doing the fast turn. You can just tilt back -> grab. Same with turn to jab, tilts, and smashes. You can do those behind you immediately either way. However they programmed the turn action has it be picky about certain things like jumping and dashing. You can't neutral-b no matter what out of turn for whatever reason also. Crouch and standing up from crouch is also weird like that.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh, i get that, but i figure when it comes to regrabbing spacies, you're going to want the fast turn regardless, right?

so will you have to fast turn jc grab, or can you just fast turn grab?

edit: or are you saying that the frames will let you start your grab after frame two instead of waiting for frame 8? cause i definitely feel like i've seen myself turn, and turn back around to grab...

 

[Magus420]

Well, around 60%+ you want to JC grab behind, and below that just turn grab. There's a pretty good overlap in range of where the instant JC grab behind and the turn grab cover, so after that range you can just go for the JC grab regardless if you see them going noticeably behind you.

Edit: If you turn grab don't JC grab. Jumping will turn you back around if you didn't get the fast turn because it's dumb about jumping during turn but not about just grabbing directly out of the turn.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so as long as they DI behind at low percent, the slowness of the slow turn isn't really of consequence, because they'll still get grabbed.

so all things considered, a jc grab, frame wise, is faster than a slow turn grab, but due to sliding, they cover different areas, so the turn -> grab is of use in order to cover that low% di behind.