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The Game & Watch Match-Up Thread - CURRENTLY DISCUSSING OLIMAR

SpeedyJ

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Lol nvm.

Its just when I make an export, usually what I do is copy paste all of the quotes onto microsoft word and then start collecting bits of information to use in certain areas of the export. But this time I had a lot of the same thing like "don't bucket the lasers, crouch under them", so in the future, posters should have a look at other posts so that information is doubled up. :)
 

Splice

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Ah ok, thats true, i noticed that happened more with this thread actually :)
 

SpeedyJ

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Yeah, I'm on board for Olimar too. That's 2/3 right off that bat!

hehe hax much?

Anyway, so here's what we've got so far.


OLIMAR:

approach diagonally

dont bother hitting his sheild if you dont have double jump (using bair out of parachute so u get ur jump back is a decent mix-up, dont let him expect it often though)

Dtilt kills pikmin, is fast enough that its decent to kill thrown pikmin without him getting into your zone

SH Nair helps get closer to him without taking too much damage

Dont get grabbed if there is a white on you, try to kill it ASAP

Dthrow to Dtilt next to the edge is a good set up for a really easy gimp if you can read his reaction.

Bait his whistle as he falls. If you fastfall Nair as a reaction to his whistle, you should get him with the end of Nair to hit him back up. Uair also works, and in fact is a real legit kill because the first hit wont hit him away and the 2nd hit with the killer knockback will catch him, so he sets up his own death; oli dies pretty early upwards.

Usmash has pretty big range
, but if you are between Oli and the pikmin vertically you can poke him quite safely, especially if you still have your double jump.

Oli can run up and grab or usmash very fast, landing Fair on the ground or Dair is quite bad. In the air or rising its ok but to actually land these is more dangerous against Oli then it normally is. Be that little bit more careful.

Supposedly Oli likes Lylat, pretty sure he gets more purples, which are the big hassle for GaW. I suggest killing them with a strong move if you can, helps us to approach and removes the big scare, Uthrow with a purple. But anyway, I think Lylat benefits us more so I wouldnt fear it. Oli likes to get under platforms which makes it hard to approach diagonally or use the aerials as early as we would like, but bair reaches under Lylat platforms well and spaces to the tip quite nicely.

Oli can be juggled easier than people think, requires more reading than usual tho

If he looks like he's only JUST going to make to the edge maybe, you arent sure, fast fall Nair to pull him down and UpB to spike him. People think edgeguarding is the godsend vs a tether recovery. It is really good, but you shouldn't let it stop you from going for a legit gimp, in fact the mentality people get from this helps Oli to get gimped less, lol!


Uair and other things that can string can cause hassles, UpB away is ok if u have your jump. Oli can actually juggle GaW without a jump, its pretty serious.

STAGES:
Battlefield is good for Olimar, personally I hate it at least.
Delfino is a decent CP for us. I know Oli is ok here, but for GaW specifically its not a good choice for him.
Frigate is also good, but beware of more purples and prepare to camp hard during that transformation that has two ledges, because its hard to approach him if he's in the middle.


That brings me to my last point: Olimar is a character with powerful stage control. If you can keep him out of the middle of the stage or away from under a platform, he should be feeling quite vulnerable (and he is too). You can abuse this better with practice. Approaching him when he is on the ground is the hardest part of this MU, our approach is really the only place where we lose out. Our platform abuse and air game is better than his. Don't fear the MU, so overcomeable.

_______________________________
At the major I want to, there was an Olimar player who is much better than me as a player in quite a few ways. He kept amazing calm, made patient and very thought through decisions and made very good reads for the kills that i suspect he also used purposeful conditioning to get, or he just analysed people very hard lol.

He came 2nd, but I beat him in a MM. I know the Oli MU very well and was able to abuse a few things, although I was rusty on it. He learnt the GaW MU enough to have a chance against me in the bracket, and I kinda threw the first game <___< which was of course dumb, because even though I 2-stocked him on the CP he managed a clutch victory on his CP even when i was trying hard.

Anyway just from playing those games I've remembered this, if I went back to that bracket set recalling all this I probably would have gotten away with throwing the first game.

I don't know if my experience willl help you beat Fino though, JOEY... Fino is real goods.
Hopefully Smiley can start winning though :)
Good luck to both of you

ps. yes this post is mildly colour coded.
About Olimar:
Lylat gives us more purples and yellows and Delfino's main platform gives us the best purple pluck percentage for any legal stage in the game (yes, even better than Frigate). Shallow water on Delfino also gives us a ****-ton of blues (67.8% Blue, 16.9% Yellow, 8.5% white, 6.8% Purple), which I love because we do a lot of pivot grabbing against G&W and blue throws do bookoo damage and can actually kill.
This thread has more information on our pluck percentages.
I freaking hate Frigate and Brinstar, but that's heavily biased. Yoshi's might be a good neutral to take us to, but IDK. Seems like it might be harder to get up from the ledge against a Dtilt-spammy G&W there.

Your Dair is so bad (I've never seen it beat out our Uair), Dtilt sends us at a stupid angle and comes out way too fast, we can DI your Bair, umm... IDK what else.
I used to hate playing G&W, but he's a lot easier to space against offline.

...I came in here for a reason, but can't remember it now. Oh well.
You can totally approach Olimar with GaW :/ GaW keeps pressure on very well too

And whoever said GaWs Dair is especially bad in this MU, i second that if I didn't already say it. As long as the Olimar uses the right pikmin, Uair beats our Dair. I mean I'm pretty sure our Dair goes through white Uair. It's important to know what Pikmin Olimar has and if you see Olimar whistling or doing things to change pikming (like if he throws 2 pikmin and then stops throwing even though he's still at a distance and he has a purple) you should make assumptions on what he's doing and see if you can get inside the Olimar players head.

Also even though Delfino gets more blues, thats better for us then purples who kill better up and Delfinos blast zone and stage changes aid GaW when he needs to camp and some of the transformations make it easier for us to land kills (moreso than Olimar). I stand by the fact it's great lol.

I'm not 100% on how good our Bair is in this MU (in some MUs its totally useless in others its safer) but my spacing is really good and I always keep my second jump so if my Bair hits a sheild I can jump after it connects quite quickly and keep going for a hopeful sheild poke in which case I would use the bair later if I know it will poke.
With the exception of yellow, all colors share the same size and location for their Uair hitbubbles. I doubt that Dair beats white Uair.

And Delfino mainly gets more PURPLES. The extra blues are just a nice bonus on one part of the stage. You have my apologies if that was unclear.
 

Splice

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I'd also add that, Nair is great for getting rid of pikmin and we can deal with whites better than other chars. I think for a GaW Purple pikmin are the worst for us. I dont if ive already said that.

And I really think you can Bair a grounded olimar; if you keep your jump and buffer the jump out of Bair, he cant Usmash you OoS, especially if you space bair so only the turtles mouth hits. And if he SDIs it, you should be able to use it late enough that he cant SDI close enough to actually do anything because you only need to hit him with the last few hits to pop him up, so even if he SDIs that shouldnt be enough hits for him to SDI really well.

I completely disagree with Wilmenz's post, and to have what he said bolded like that overstates something that is not necessarily great advice, which could be misleading. I'd say closer to the truth would be don't get predictable with Bair on Olimar. Be safe and space with it as I discussed in an earlier post, but dont get predictable in any case because that's the only time you give him a guaranteed follow-up; if you are safe and smart, he shouldnt get any followups on reaction.
 

SpeedyJ

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Yes, sir!

Is there a thread with the percentage of Olimar pulling out a certain Pikmin on a given stage? I think that'd be pretty useful.
 

SpeedyJ

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Yeah Makke, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar and Delfino are already givens.:laugh:

But I agree with you and I'd like to expand on Battlefield as well. And to clarify, Smashvile is bad for us vs Olimar, yes?
 

Splice

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I dont know if id rather play Oli on Smashville or Battlefield to be honest :/

He is real hard to get out from under the platform on Battlefield, whereas the moving platform provides no safety for him but we can abuse it on Smashville. I wouldnt CP either personally, nor ban either. Because if you are going to ban something, FD is definitely worse than Smashville. I dont know if anythings worse than FD. Olimars seem to really like being able to go under a platform, and it does make approaching about more difficult, but they can also hurt as more if we have no platform for ourselves. I guess it's about the lesser of two evils, whichever really is worse would probably vary from GaW to GaW, and from Olimar to Olimar. If that makes sense.

CPs vs Olimar are really weird guys. Delfino depends on how well you can abuse the stage. It should generally be our favour though. Brinstar and Rainbow I'd assume are good too, just because we are GaW, doesnt matter who we play against, 3 cheers for Brinstar and RC anyway!

As far as pikmin pluck %s, you should collect data thats already assimilated on the Olimar boards and put it here. Some GaWs will likely hate some Pikmin more than others or something (although Im pretty sure Purple really is the worst for us, straight up)

side note, i wonder if UTD or Vinnie will have any knowledge to share from experience.
The Olimar players I have played in Australia definitely are quite legit, but they are not RichBrown, lol.
 

Wilmenz

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*sigh* so just because Splice disagrees with me my statement seems invalid? good job people. Try to Bair an Olimar who knows the MU in tournament or in a MM then tell me your experiences. Obviously if you full hop it you won't get any punishment but that means you can only full hop Bair an Olimar which makes it a tad predictable.
 

Splice

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You can SH Bair if it's retreating. Nothing is one hundred percent safe Wilmenz but if it's not something that can be punished on reaction than you can still use it, as long as its not predictably. It's pretty hard for Oli to reach a SH Bair if the tip hits him and he sheilds it, and you move away as it ends and hopefully autocancel and buffer something out of it. You shouldn't always be getting Usmashed out of Bair.

I have been Usmashed out of a Bair. Heaps of times. I've then spaced the Bair in a way that I know was better, and the Olimar tried to punish this too and realised he couldnt. He has to be wary of our spacing.
I think he may have a pretty recognizable advantage if he is doing running powersheilds though, but again if he gets predictable you can punish that.

Obviously Bairing CAN be bad against Olimar in some situations. I just dont think it's helpful to stay stuff like "Dont ever Bair against grounded Olimar" when you can. Just explain more and it would be fine im sure, but that, stand alone, is not ultimately true.
 

SpeedyJ

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I've made a start on the export. Mind giving us some more incite Zac, seeing as you owned up some great Olimars at the tourny? =D

And fantastic Splice. How come you have so much experience on the match-up? :O
 

Splice

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2009 i teamed with Olimar all year
Throughout late 2009 til the end of 2010, I had two Olimars to practice against, one of which was arguably the person I played twice as much as anyone else

And I revised Olimar recently (just before people asked the questions about Olimar in the other thread, haha) when I played against the best Olimar player in Australia in friendlies and MMs for a long time at that major I went to. He came 2nd, so he's pretty good, and I did better against him then most people did, except the winner of the tournament and Falco and Wolf players, lol. That's why all the stuff I learned last year is fresh right now, and I learnt some new stuff too.

Still, Zac beat Denti. I... don't think I could beat Denti. Even If I know the Olimar matchup very well, Zac is on the next level, so it'd be really interesting to what he has to say. Or Vinnie too, he would probably know some Olimar stuff too.
 

UTDZac

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One of the keys to beating Olimar is to play more relaxed. Then when the time is right go full out aggressive and don't let Olimar touch the ground.

The matchup is really annoying since it feels like Olimar has the advantage the whole time.
 

Splice

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The matchup is really annoying since it feels like Olimar has the advantage the whole time.
This is so true.

UTD did you get many gimps on Denti? If so can you explain any?
What game was it, if it was Grand Finals it definitely should have been recorded :/
 

SpeedyJ

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What are some proposed ratios? I think you guys would provide a solid one since you guys are no only top-notch G&W players but good at the Olimar match-up.

Best we get this out of the way to avoid post match-up discussion like with Falco.
 

Splice

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i think it's in between 55:45 either way
a.k.a from 55:45 to 45:55
And I think most people will also think similair values, but we'll see. I would be surprised if anyone went further than 60:40 though.

I think it's pretty even, like 50-50 super even. Olimar is kind of a glass cannon, as are we, in some respects. We do have bucket breaking advantage for kills to the side though, but we are lighter towards upwards KOs, and Olimars Usmash ain't a weak Usmash, to be sure; just like our Smashes are also quite powerful. Onstage we have a better aerial game, he has a better ground game, so this makes each match heavily stage dependant imo. It's stage dependant anyway because pikmin colours can really matter. I love it when they don't get purples for ages. I feel so safe.

The only thing that might sway it in our favour is our planking, but I've rarely attempted this against Olimar and when I did it wasn't succesful. I'm pretty bad at planking (because it's totally a hard thing to do) but I'm not sure if Olimar can actually get around it if you are really smart, so i dont know if it matters.

50:50 from me nerrrrrr
 

SFA Smiley

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I dont think an olimar would risk that against us. He could provably just get near the ledge and try to out ledgegrab us with up b if you understand me. Like how if you tether above the ledge it will tether down toward the ledge. That'd be safer for him

:phone:
 

Denti

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I think it's probably 50:50 or maybe 55:45. I think about it like this, in a world about playstyles it's probably like 60:40 Olimar's Adv, but the thing is Olimar can get gimped (it only takes like 2 reads to gimp him, lmao) and if that happens at low percents GaW should make that the game. Also GaW gets some stupid counterpicks he should not lose to Olimar on, it's basically pick your poision, RC or Brinstar.
 

SpeedyJ

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Slightly off topic. In regards to the Olimar Stage Thread here is the report on the stages.

I'm quite puzzled about FD and SV.

Play on:
- Final Destination?
- Smashvile?
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- Battlefield
- Brinstar
- Rainbow Cruise
- Frigate Orpheon
- Delfino Plaza
Avoid:
- Yoshi’s Island
- Lylat Cruise
- Castle Siege

I'm not gonna even bring up Pictochat.
 

Splice

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Yeh im pretty sure Olimar would be hard to plank against, at the least.

I don't know how I feel about Battlefield and FD.
GaW in general hates FD, but I guess the lack of platforms should make it easier for some people to approach Olimar, doesn't do anything for me though.
Olimar on Battlefield is quite hard to deal with, He can be quite safe and even though it's generally considered good for GaW, Olimar can use this stage quite well too.
I don't ban it or strike it though, it's not bad, but I definitely think a GaW can easily find a better CP.

Pokemon Stadium 1 is neither here nor there.

I reckon Smashville is awesome though. I think I've already said this but the moving platform means Olimar can't really abuse it to stay in a safe position whereas we can still use it to stay safe on and to retreat.
 

Alphicans

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I hate FD, and love BF vs olimar.

I think the m/u is even. We **** him on our CPs, and he has a couple CPs that make it really hard for us too.
 

PantyRaider08

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Avoid halberd at all costs. I'd rather play Olimar on FD. I played a lot of matches yesterday, and I'm starting to think the MU is more even. You can't afford too many mistakes. Up smash and pivot grabbing are a pain. Dont lose focus or you will see yourself losing quickly. Make solid D throw reads, juggle him with nair and try not to get up smashed. Also watch out for nairs on his part. They get him out of jams.

:phone:
 

A2ZOMG

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Vs Olimar is simple. Don't do anything reckless until you're in his face. D-tilt and N-air to deflect pikmin. Jab and grab when you're close. Throw him any direction, just make sure you follow up well, since a good juggle, gimp, or D-throw F-smash can basically win you the match. Gimping him with D-tilt is awesome.
 

Alphicans

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The olimars for some reason don't think dtilt is good for gimping... At least that's how it was in the BBR m/u discussion. I tried to tell them other wise, but then major theorycraft started and I didn't feel like fighting that.
 

SpeedyJ

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The olimars for some reason don't think dtilt is good for gimping... At least that's how it was in the BBR m/u discussion. I tried to tell them other wise, but then major theorycraft started and I didn't feel like fighting that.
So should it still be included in the export?
 

Alphicans

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Well dtilt doesn't send olimar at a dumb angle like IC's dtilt, but the move has stupid range, and will gimp him if you catch him out of his jump. I see olimars do stupid stuff just right above the ledge, or right below it, and our dtilt covers that entire area. If we knock them offstage with it, we get a pretty good opportunity to follow up with strong/weak hit fair depending on wear they do/what % they're at.

It's not an excellent gimp tool, but it's not like it won't ever happen. Overall though, dtilt is our best move in this match-up, because unless olimar is perfectly spaced all the time, this move will trump everything they have on us.
 

PantyRaider08

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Posted friendlies of me and Olimar in the video thread. Hope this helps some of yall. Ignore the bad di at times. I haven't played too much in the last months. :(
 

SpeedyJ

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Posted friendlies of me and Olimar in the video thread. Hope this helps some of yall. Ignore the bad di at times. I haven't played too much in the last months. :(
Lol don't worry, always appreciated. At least we have some videos now. :)

Sorry for the laziness, the export well get done.. ..eventually..
 

Sky Pirate

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Is there a thread with the percentage of Olimar pulling out a certain Pikmin on a given stage? I think that'd be pretty useful.
Pluck Percentages
One of my posts in the social had a link to it.

I'd like to add some stuff after a marathon I had with a G&W.
  • Wilmenz is right about Bairing grounded Oli to a certain degree. If you cover your retreat with UpB, we can also jump OoS and ride your UpB's windbox up for a Fair or Uair (depending on the spacing, I haven't played with this one a lot yet).
    Also, if we encounter a poorly-spaced Bair in the air, we can easily DI up and toward you for a free Fair.
  • Fair and Dsmash can put us in a really bad position at like... 60+. Something low like that.
  • A G&W bent on Uairing and Nairing when we get in the air is actually kind of annoying to land against.
  • Uair's good for sorting when G&W is above us.
  • Airdodge CAN be useful for getting in, but don't get predictable or you'll start eating charged smashes.
  • I would stay away from Halberd.
  • NO JOHNS, PR. I'm as rusty as you are. =P

There was a bit more that I wanted to add, but the list is on my other computer and I'm only posting what I could remember.
 

A2ZOMG

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The olimars for some reason don't think dtilt is good for gimping... At least that's how it was in the BBR m/u discussion. I tried to tell them other wise, but then major theorycraft started and I didn't feel like fighting that.
Really? I've gimped Olimars in consecutive matches with this move. He has to respond differently to D-tilt edgeguards as opposed to chasing him offstage with aerials. This especially counters him for trying to jump onstage, which is more common than you may think, especially if they are conditioned to jump and airdodge to avoid an edgeguard.

Also, it's a solid counter to his planking.
 

SpeedyJ

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This is probably going to be our longest export ever. Obviously I don't use all the input but I have six pages worth of quotes on Word. :laugh:
 
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