The "Gambling" Debate.

[hungrybox]

Have at it, Gentlemen.

To what extent, if any, is Tournament Play a form of Gambling?

 

[hungrybox]

To expand upon my point, I was having a very in-depth argument with an older player, F-Zero, about whether or not Competetive Smash, by placing money on the line without a guarantee of winning it back, is a form of gambling.

His argument was quite thoughtful; though I don't remember all of it, it revolved around the point that, because of the many variables that come in tournament matches and the fact that there is no set way of knowing what your opponent will do, Smash is indeed a game of skill but one that also relies on a degree of chance.

My argument was based upon the simple knowledge that Smash is based fully on skill. I compared it to Poker, in which there are also pro's, but the game is based completely upon what cards appear on the table IF AND ONLY IF the player chooses to go all-in every single hand. In other words, winning a poker "match" if neither player folds is beyond your control; whoever is dealt the better card wins, which is why Poker is heavily considered Gambling. Smash, on the other hand, can be learned; it's variables, though heavy in quantity, can all be adapted to and learned with enough practice.

Hence, I believe that Smash is in no way a form of gambling. I really want to hear what others think, though.

 

[Tichinde925]

Saturday Night Fight 3 at the University of Rhode Island was canceled when an employee noticed a giant pile of bills on the table and believed it to be illegal gambling / pot.

More info here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2069130&postcount=627

 

[BuntyBant]

It isn't gambling if you money match someone but it is if to people are playing (x and y) and you bet someone else (z) that x player will beat y player then niether you nor z have any control over the match.

In short it isn't gambling if you have control of the outcome but it is if you don't

 

[#HBC | Mac]

should be in tournament discussion

 

[metalreflectslime]

It is not gambling since it is a test of skill.

 

[1048576]

This is going to get into semantics very quickly. It all depends in how loose your definition of gambling is. It's more like gambling than chess or going to work. It's less like gambling than betting on sports or poker.

I think there's a lot of random variation in that you can "win" by either being one step ahead of your opponents or several steps behind them, like RPS.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

If you bet on something that can't be demanded by anything that is called skill that iis commonly argeed on.

In gambling there is some skill to it like i've seen my dad figure out a slot machine so he landed the 3 in a row all the time.

however i'd toatlly say peach/G&W and some srages are random enough to be called gambling. turpins and side-B.

however in gambling you can't say what your mistakes were you can't say something like I shouldn't have hit (roy XD) because I busted like you had 12. There are more choices in smash when it starts unlike maybe blackjack/21 sure there are 2 options but I like to think about the liklyhood of what cards may or may not come up next and set myself up with a little system when it's safe to hit/not.

hoever in smash there are different hits and one choice will work unlike if you've got 15 and everyone esle has more. 7 or higher and you bust but to low like 3 or less then you're just adding more risk that doesn't help you.

I think it's options and lack of random(like turpins or something unpredictable) maes it fair to say smash isn't gambling because you are punished if you make mistakes which you will but you have to punish their mistakes without mistakes. and also figure out what they're going to do. There's a a lot of interacting with their mind like chess.

THere's a risk/reward but same for EVERYTHING and you can't call life gambling because you plan a lot of things and are put into a case and react you don't compare odds and walk away from a girl or something. like What's the chances she's got aids? well she's a hoe and that's a high risk/punishment that i'll suffer from forever. so no. No.

Also me and my dad argeed to gambling as risk/reward where you can't know the results. By smashes normal game play things beat each other so I don't think it's fair to call it gambleing

 

[Geist]

I have friends who play poker competitively, and they'll argue that it isn't gambling in the same sense that it is when the average Joe dumps 5k in a casino.
The term gamble to me insists that luck is the primary determinant in a win or loss, whereas in competitive smash specifically, many random factors are consiously taken out for that reason.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

brackets are usually controlled so i dont see how it can be gambling

 

[mers]

I don't think gambling requires that the game be based on luck. Winning and losing money at poker is based on skill, not luck. Being good at poker can be summed up as "making the most of your advantages and the least of your disadvantages."

Sounds a lot like smash.

 

[Doser]

People bet on boxing and that is still considered gambling.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

this threads relevant: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229262&

its about how smash tourneys are illegal in some states cuz they consider it illegal gambling.

 

[phish-it]

People bet on boxing and that is still considered gambling.

Thats because the person betting isn't actually in the ring and doesn't have control of the outcome. Like BuntBant said the same applies if you are betting on another persons skill and not your own it is considered gambling.

 

[PB&J]

money matches are straight gambling..if you dont see that i dont know what to tell people..tourny is confusing imo but i understand what nick(f-zero) is coming from

 

[CloneHat]

You're betting money that you'll win the tournament.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I bet my engry used that my legs will carry me over to the table to get some food. no sure chance I could get stabbed.

Gambing is more like where the result is unknown. If you're going to win you expect to at least place for non random reasons.

 

[1048576]

I'd gather that 90% of people putting money on the line only to lose it at the end of the day means the result is unknown.

 

[P.C. Jona]

i bet if someone called the cops to a venue for gambling

it would get shut down

but in court you could probably argue that its not

because like hbox said its skill based

like when you pay the dollar to shoot water in the hole against random people at theme parks

idk

 

[JPOBS]

You're betting money that you'll win the tournament.

This isnt necessarily true.

I could argue that you're paying money simply to PARTICIPATE in the tournament.
Its a common entrance fee. The prize just so happens to also be money.

if the prize for winning a tournament a trophy or a medal, would competitive smash suddenly NOT be considered gambling at all?

 

[DWiens421]

I have had three previous hobbies that could have fallen under this discussion... poker, tennis and boxing.

Poker is deemed to be illegal in most states, because it is considered a form of gambling. It is true that how a set of whole cards ends up at the end of a hand does involve some chance. At the same time, it is not incumbent on a poker player to commit their chips unless they want to, meaning they have every opportunity in the world to commit their chips when they have the advantage. I don't believe that poker should be a form of gambling.

Now, to play the devil's advocate, tennis is an individual event where professionals pay buy-ins to enter tournaments. While the top professionals don't have to (their sponsors pay their entry fees), the mid level professionals do have to. Just like any other form of competition, variable factors can influence the result of the contest. Perhaps the sun is in the eyes of one competitor on one side of the court, and clouds block it out when the other is on that side... Not likely, but this is merely to prove that chance is always a part of competition.

The third is boxing... is there any sport when one action can reverse all else up to that point in the competition? I have seen plenty of fights where one fighter dominates action the whole way through, and gets knocked out late. In boxing, it is not even seen as a problem that fighters bet massive amounts of their purse on themselves in the Vegas casinos (Winky Wright UD12 Felix Trinidad if you are curious), and there are no repercussions. If people can pay money, outside of the competition, to make large sums of money from that, based on the performance in the competition... I don't know why something like paying an entry fee to SSBM is a problem.

 

[1048576]

Now for some reason I have this mental image of some lawyer showing that clip of Armada's stitchface combo on Mango and getting melee tournies banned.

 

[FlipX]

money matches are straight gambling..if you dont see that i dont know what to tell people..tourny is confusing imo but i understand what nick(f-zero) is coming from

All right im taking the bait.

How are MM's automatically gambling while being in a group of people (tournaments) somehow makes it "confusing". If you can directly influence the outcome of the match/game/tournament, it isnt gambling imo. If anything, tournaments are more likely to be considered gambling because you have less influence. In MM's you should know what your getting into.

 

[CableCho57]

the way I see is

if you can FORCE yourself to LOSE, then it ISNT gambling
i.e in poker; you can keep folding and folding, slowly being blinded off and lose all your chips with no luck involved. Also call raises preflop and muck your cards immediatly postflop without checking

in smash just keep SDing over and over

games like roulette, slot and even sports betting always have a small percentage of winning no matter what and that is gambling

smash is not

 

[PB&J]

if i said " hey hbox , you suk..i can beat you now. im pretty sure he would say"money match me then" put your money where your mouth is..how is that not gambling? its betting on a match..no one knows the future outcome.. a bet=gambling or did that change in 2010

 

[t3h Icy]

I don't think it's gambling for Hungrybox and Armada. It's more like a really fast interest bank account.

 

[JPOBS]

if i said " hey hbox , you suk..i can beat you now. im pretty sure he would say"money match me then" put your money where your mouth is..how is that not gambling? its betting on a match..no one knows the future outcome.. a bet=gambling or did that change in 2010

wtf this is dumb

 

[Dark Sonic]

if i said " hey hbox , you suk..i can beat you now. im pretty sure he would say"money match me then" put your money where your mouth is..how is that not gambling? its betting on a match..no one knows the future outcome.. a bet=gambling or did that change in 2010

It's not a bet, it's a challenge. Unless you believe that every form of competition that involves any sort of prize is a bet (in which case, competing in the Olympic Games would also be gambling, as they are playing for prizes/honor).


Being uncertain of the outcome, does not immediately make it gambling. Competitions wouldn't EXIST unless multiple people believed they could win. What determines whether or not something is gambling is how much the individuals participating have control over the outcome.

In a sense, money matches are EVEN LESS a form of gambling than actual tournaments. You cannot get a "hard bracket" or a "death pool" in a money match. Stage striking further reduces the influence of chance, so all that's left is a few irremovable in game variables (stitch faces, 9s, ect), while everything else is under one of the players' control.

 

[Quic]

if i said " hey hbox , you suk..i can beat you now. im pretty sure he would say"money match me then" put your money where your mouth is..how is that not gambling? its betting on a match..no one knows the future outcome.. a bet=gambling or did that change in 2010

So..because you don't know the outcome it's gambling? all sports are gambling?(Participating, not betting on it, that of course is gambling)

 

[PB&J]

mm=gambling because it only for the money

tourny= some people just like to win and dont care about the money at all..its very hard to explain right now

ill post something more in depth when im not being lazy

 

[0Room]

I believe that to a point, there is some chance involved. You never know what your opponent will do and while you have to react to it, something might happen to mess that up.

For instance, you miss that waveshine and then get chaingrabbed to death.
So theoretically, if you could perform every input and action perfectly, no it's completely based on skill.
However, due to human nature, there is some chance involved.

 

[P.C. Jona]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229262

check out that thread too about gambling and stuff

first post is intresting

 

[tarheeljks]

It is not gambling since it is a test of skill.

the two are not exclusive imo, of course this is purely semantics as it is based on one's definition of gambling. my issue w/your definition is that many games that are considered "gambling" have significant amounts of skill involved despite also having elements of "true" randomness. you think poker lacks an element of skill? play phil ivey heads up for a few thousand hands (which is not that many).

gambling is taking on risk, so i don't see how entering a tournament is not gambling-- you risk money that you are not guaranteed to recover. having control over outcomes mitigates said risk, but it does not eliminate it. there are certainly varying degrees of risk though and to that extent there are different degrees of "gambling"


edit: essentially i believe that separating games into chance vs. skill is a false dichotomy; there is a spectrum

 

[DtJ Jungle]

should be in tournament discussion

Yeah

this.


moving it there now.

 

[FlipX]

mm=gambling because it only for the money

tourny= some people just like to win and dont care about the money at all..its very hard to explain right now

ill post something more in depth when im not being lazy

By that logic you could argue MM are for pride more than money givin that most MM's are for no more than 10 dollars. I care way more about winning than I do about the money if im playing someone I want to beat extremly bad. If I were asked if id rather have 10 more dollars or lose 10 dollars and take the W itd be close depending on who im playing.

BUT, I dont think that fully determines whether or not its gambling. If you don't know how good your opponent is when you MM them then that could be grounds for gambling (aka everyone MM'ing SWD at Pound 5). Technically speaking, betting that the sun would come up tomorrow is gambling because you dont have control over it. Although it would be a good gamble =P. Someone betting on M2K to beat me in a MM is still gambling despite it being an insanely good investment. However, MM'ing someone who you have a good concept of their skill level is not gambling because you understand all of the parts AND you can directly influence the outcome without many/any mitigating factors.

The argument may be a little rough because I do not think pro poker players are gambling when they sit down at a cash game (tournaments are a wavy line). And this doesnt exactly stay true with poker but I think it still makes sense for smash.

TLDR: If you can control the outcome personally than it isn't gambling just because money is on the line.

 

[JPOBS]

I believe that to a point, there is some chance involved. You never know what your opponent will do and while you have to react to it, something might happen to mess that up.

For instance, you miss that waveshine and then get chaingrabbed to death.
So theoretically, if you could perform every input and action perfectly, no it's completely based on skill.
However, due to human nature, there is some chance involved.

human error is not the same thing as chance, even if there is a "chance" you might mess up.

"chance" in probability of making a mistake entirely within oyur control, isnt the same thing as "chance" like the roll of a dice.

 

[Zodiac]

tournaments are in no way gambling, neither are money matches.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Tournaments are gambling because you're putting down money up front. Skill vs. luck doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[ZoSo]

Are we talking about gambling from a philosophical standpoint or from a legal standpoint?

 

[Doraki]

In a smash tournament the amount of money you can "bid" is fairly limited.
(money matches aside)

Unlike all other forms of gambling I can think of.


It's like a lottery but with skill instead of luck.