The future of wave dashing/wave landing.

Gearkeeper-8a

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in my opinion i am good with wavedash but if they implement completely they need to give it an animation, stale move balance, and option to lose to somenthing or make walking and neutral dodge better, i dont know maybe you cant parry an attack if you shield out of a wavedash or if you are hit during one you get more hitstun.
 
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I'm moving my wavedashing idea here cause apparently the mods didn't like it having its own thread. :ohwell:

Just getting this out there. Not sure anyone will see it, but it's stuck in my head, and unlike reddit, this place seems much better for discussions like these.

So I think a way to make Ultimate a great game is to give players options, however, I also want balanced mechanics and choices, and I think wavedashing is one of those things that can give it, even with the inclusion of the new run canceling mechanics. Now note that I'm not a competitive player, but I do like to put apart design in games, cause I want to become a game designer... obviously, and if I were designing Smash Ultimate, I personally would have a wavedash do something like this. Let me preface this by saying that even though I advocate for wavedashing, I'd be totally fine if they designed another, easier to understand mechanic or button combo that did the same sorts of things. The last thing I want is gratuitous mechanical difficulty, but I do want options for the player. So this is what I would do.

Wavedashing Changes:

  • Make a button "macro" of jump+dodge buttons that can do a low to the ground airdodge. This will automatically wavedash if you airdodge diagonally downward.
  • Have special wavedashing animations for all characters and a special visual effect.
  • Include a tutorial specifically for wavedashing (and a good tutorial in general honestly).
These three changes are centered around both casuals and spectators. The first makes the maneuver accessible and easy to understand for the average player, and the third allows for them to know how to use it via tutorials. The second gives wavedashing a distinct look, making it easier to follow to the untrained eye, and for commentators.

Wavedashing Changes (cont):
  • All characters have a specific "wavedash traction" value separate from their ground traction, meaning when they wavedash, they will all decelerate at a set rate and a set distance.
  • Wavedash lag is now closer to Melee's, around 10-11 frames, for all characters.
  • Wavedash now stales along with dodges.
    • Rolls overall should go the same distance as wavedashes minimum.
These three changes are balance related. The first and second remove any notion of some characters getting godlike wavedashes, while others get useless ones due to ground traction. This doesn't remove its purpose, just spreads the love for all characters.

The third both makes sure it isn't spammed and has a downside that is skill-independent, and that's resource management of a kind. To use wavedash means to potentially stale out your rolls, spotdodges, and airdodges, lowering your defensive capability for offensive capability that it provides. The footnote of the third change is a sort of balancing between rolls and wavedashes, so they go the same distance or higher than wavedash, giving yet another incentive to not just wavedash for everything.

Wavedashing Changes (cont):

  • When wavelanding on a platform, holding the dodge button will allow for a potential ledge drop, should the waveland slide toward the edge of a platform.
    • Not holding the dodge button will make the character stop at the edge as it does currently in Ultimate.
    • Doing attacks during the wavedash at all will disallow ledge dropping.
This last change involves an easy form of ledge cancelling, where you simply slide off with the waveland and it will do it. The wavedash is uniform, meaning this option is open for all characters, making it very cool to have. As an added bonus, you have the ability to choose whether to do it or not without attacking by not holding the dodge button, giving it some extra mindgame potential, as well as more control over it. The one penalty that needs to be said is that it cannot cancel attacks that are being done during the slide, for what should be obvious reasons.


Well these are my ideas for this mechanic. Again, if the Ultimate devs can find a way to have wavedashing's missing purposes that aren't covered by run cancelling be realized in some other way, I'd be fine. But if they can't, then this is how I would do wavedashing.
 

FrankTheStud

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To be honest I can see a form of "polished wavedashing" being implemented to the game and perhaps even given unique animations. For example, Mario (or anyone, really) could leap forward quickly with a unique "stride" or "charge" animation and flash once. He can also have another animation for retreating, with a quick leap backwards, with again one quick flash. Perhaps the flashes can be similar to the "parry" flash? These would grant no invincibility but can be cancelled and acted out of with another attack, essentially like wavedashing. It can have increased lagtime the more frequently they're used in succession, like rolling and air dodging, to force players into making them situational as opposed to the norm. Perhaps to start an initial engagement or secure a killing blow? Maybe use it to survive by quick-dashing backwards into a forward smash? Back-dash pivot upsmash, anyone? (Yes I know I'm lame)

I would also like to see a more polished waveland in a similar way, making it less clunky. (initially, at least) This kind of "quick-land" can also help heavies with wicked landing lag have some sort of shot at a decent landing.

Whether it's implemented or not (and I REALLY hope it is, as I believe giving characters "clutch positioning options" in the heat of the moment will add another layer of depth to competitive play), Smash Ultimate looks like it's gonna be an awesome experience. The whole game looks faster paced and like it will favor more aggressive/assertive play, which was my main gripe with Smash 4.
Having the fixed rage is good, too, and here's hoping for a bit nore hitstun and combo setups as well. (didnt see a lot at e3)
 
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Quillion

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Necro'lic Necro'lic : My response to you on that other thread still stands:

I definitely agree with the staling and the "unique distance" for each wavedash.

However, I don't think it should be a macro for an originally emergent feature, but its own actual input. It should be its own fully-developed mechanic with its own animation and terms.

Think about it: instead of having two buttons for shielding, let's say that by default L is used to wavedash and R is used to shield. Of course, these inputs can be customized to the content of each player.

The wavedash can still be variable length; depending on how the stick is angled into the ground, it would still move a certain distance corresponding to the position of the stick.

Oh, and for extra fun, each character would gain an Air Dash if they use the wavedash button in the air. I'd say every character should have only one Air Dash per jump (multi-jump characters would only have it on the first two jumps, ground then air). This way, Bayonetta's greatest advantage wouldn't be unique to her anymore!
----
As for my response to you from before the thread was closed:

While I do like the idea of having its own button, I honestly am in favor of the emergent properties here, if only for tying in the relationship between the other dodges as a resource management deal.
Even if the wavedash becomes its own button, there's no reason as to why they still can't be connected to the "dodge meter."

I don't really think that would be needed, since you could just allow the player to remove the slide immediately if they inputted a walk or dash, but not during an attack.
And why can't that simply coexist with a variable-length dedicated wavedash? There are times when standing still after a wavedash are advantageous.

What does air dash do exactly? Sorry, I stopped playing Smash 4 around the time between Corrin and Bayonetta were added.
Bayonetta is so far above the rest of the cast because of her Side-B. Having low-knockback combo moves all across the board is bad enough, but then she gets the ability to effectively "chase" a knocked-away opponent because she can use it to "dash" to that opponent to continue the combo.

But even though it's broken in the context of Smash currently, they shouldn't take it out. Heck, I'm actually in favor of giving a similar mechanic to the rest of the cast! It would add a universal depth that makes the characters more fun to play as.

To be honest I can see a form of "polished wavedashing" being implemented to the game and perhaps even given unique animations. For example, Mario (or anyone, really) could leap forward quickly with a unique "stride" or "charge" animation and flash once. He can also have another animation for retreating, with a quick leap backwards, with again one quick flash. Perhaps the flashes can be similar to the "parry" flash? These would grant no invincibility but can be cancelled and acted out of with another attack, essentially like wavedashing. It can have increased lagtime the more frequently they're used in succession, like rolling and air dodging, to force players into making them situational as opposed to the norm. Perhaps to start an initial engagement or secure a killing blow? Maybe use it to survive by quick-dashing backwards into a forward smash? Back-dash pivot upsmash, anyone? (Yes I know I'm lame)
Yep, that's exactly what I'm thinking.
 
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Teeb147

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Bummer, they closed down the thread I made. I get the point of centralizing stuff, but sometimes there could be unique branches too...

Anyway, I'll post the link here I guess, to add to this one:
https://smashboards.com/threads/a-simplified-wavedash-option-for-everyone.456395/

And this was the first post:
We need to be realistic about nintendo's intentions and concerns, and I've thought of some stuff to handle them. If we just want wavedash outright as it is in melee, we're being selfish and not considering their intentions and all they're trying to appeal with smash.

There's been an idea to make wavedash simplified, like with 1 button press (kind of like a backdash), but that also can have some concerns. I've tried to handle these too.
Here are the bigger reasons for general concerns (as far as I think):
1. Wavedash as it is, can be seen as hard to master and not very accessible to all players. (And may create big gaps between those who've mastered it and those who haven't.)
2. Aesthetically, seeing characters slide all over the place is not very pleasing, especially in terms of game flow and design. (And a simplified wavedash would increase this, as everyone might slide all over rather than run, etc.)

Considering that dash (canceling) options are incredibly good and easy in Ultimate, the bigger purpose for wavedashing would be to quickly move out of shielding, rather than always jumping out of it, or dodge rolling. There is a reason to have it, as characters that have good aerial tools (such as Marth fair and Bayonetta b moves) have advantages compared to others, and could afford to shield a lot more and move out of the way while attacking because of their options.

Here's my idea to have a wavedash option while handling the concerns:
-Make wavedashing an option you can only do after shielding up, or while releasing shield.

To make it simplified and accessible to everyone, it could be as simple as pressing a direction (and possibly another button if it's while shielding) at the same time as you release shield, and the character will wavedash in that direction.
This will make it easy to use, so more accessible, and won't conflict with dodge rolling or parrying. If you do not press a direction while releasing shield you can still parry, while there's also the option to move out of the way with a back or front (wave)dash and quickly have options.
This way, people in general would use the flexibility of regular dashing for moving, and then while it would require some execution skills to wavedash, it would be simpler and not overbearing to the gameplay (including game flow and design) as you'd use it for it's main use, and would have to get shield up to use it.
And if it's seen as still too complex, then there's the option of something simpler (like just one button) but still only useable while shielding. The point is to make it so that everyone is happy with its place in the game. (as much as possible anyway)
:)

What do you think about this? Please share your own ideas around all this if you have any. Do you think there's anything else that could make it better?
Cheers.
 
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Atem

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Bummer, they closed down the thread I made. I get the point of centralizing stuff, but sometimes there could be unique branches too...

Anyway, I'll post the link here I guess, to add to this one:
https://smashboards.com/threads/a-simplified-wavedash-option-for-everyone.456395/

And this was the first post:
Sorry that I did that. Your article had a lot of good points. Again sorry. But I don’t agree with everything you said. As stated with accessibility you said it might create a gap between new and professional players but that happens in almost every game. If you have a new player with Cloud (or Bayo both examples work) vs a skilled Falco it is an easy win for the Falco. I also think one button is to easy of an option and undermines the tech skill needed for new techniques (like perfect pivoting in smash 4).
 

Skitrel

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By all means, post it being done then my friend.

I'll wait.
You were really rude and inflammatory here and it was honestly highly unnecessary, please tone down that behaviour as it doesn't add anything good to the forums and just makes it a really unnecessarily hostile place for no reason - not to mention the fact that you're wrong and wavedashing IS in Ultimate.

NAKAT and Aposl demonstrated at CEO that you have to do it with a shorthop input, not a fullhop input. In Melee you can do it with either input. Players at the invitational likely did not attempt the shorthop input and just did it the way they all do it in Melee without caring about the specificness of the input.

Some clips:

https://gyazo.com/bdb41b7e273e7b7cb5a84b9dde27c134

https://gyazo.com/d264bfe6de6452f912a4c5c519c529a0

https://gyazo.com/202e6021269f18201f95b734e01bc1b3

https://gyazo.com/b01a84027497ee55e23da86803ffe48f

https://gyazo.com/43f3342713a36c5e663925fa2888bf54
 
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Tollhouse

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In my opinion, wavedashing isn't bad and personally I don't care if it gets in the game. it's just that, it looks really silly and odd to see these characters move across the ground like there "hovering" or something. If the dev team does add it at least make it look nice and polished (like an animation when you preform it). Not out of place like before.
This is a good point that all players need to consider. I'd imagine from a game designer's perspective wave dashing is going to make Ultimate look well unpolished or just flawed. Wave-dashing is an exploit. If it was intended to be a part of melee, they would've showcased it. From what I read, Sakurai knew about it during melee's development but left it in because he didn't think it would make a difference to the players. For him, it ironically didn't turn out this way. This clearly shows Sakurai didn't know wave-dashing's potential. But it was still so well recieved in the end. This is why I am with the others who argue it would be better to implement a smoother looking mechanic that looks like it was intended to be in the game. It will never be just like melee wave-dashing but it can offer the similar benefits and just overall add more depth to the game.
 

Teeb147

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Sorry that I did that. Your article had a lot of good points. Again sorry. But I don’t agree with everything you said. As stated with accessibility you said it might create a gap between new and professional players but that happens in almost every game. If you have a new player with Cloud (or Bayo both examples work) vs a skilled Falco it is an easy win for the Falco. I also think one button is to easy of an option and undermines the tech skill needed for new techniques (like perfect pivoting in smash 4).
I'm going to make a point that's more about the general population. I wanna say the concerns I mentioned are more trying to understand what Nintendo might use as a reason for being concerned (about wavedashing). They try to appeal to all players, and that includes making it accessible to everyone. They want to appeal to everyone they can. And some people can become competitive too, but it can depend on their experience with the game.

Anyway, here's the point I want to bring up. IF a particular skill gives an overwhelming advantage, then it can make it hard on those who, for whatever reason, have trouble mastering it. Everyone has different strengths, and some people might have trouble with one area of the game (maybe they just don't have the dexterity for using wavedashing consistently), but make up for it in another. because they still have the motivation to play and get better, they might even be able to read very well. There's actually a good amount of people who have trouble developping wavedash and using it consistently, even after practicing a lot. The question is, is that fine and they just have to accept they'll have trouble winning because others are good with such a powerful tool? They might be great fighters in some ways, they get discouraged because wavedash is just such a powerful tool (it is in melee anyway), and the most important part for Ultimate is that it allows you to move out or in quick out of shield. That makes such a big difference in what the game is.

The harsh attitude is 'get good', but the reality is that an attitude like that can alienate some players. Smash is not a normal competitive game, it's for everyone and it's also a bridge to the competitive side. And they're definitely concerned to some degree that this bridge feels good to get on. So that's one reason I'm for a simpler wavedash. That said, I don't think it'ld be too big of a deal in Ultimate, there's enough other tools that you can make it with other stuff, but it still does matter, at least to some degree.

So, hopefully I got the point across. :)
 

ssjayy

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Unfortunately those wavedashes look like they come with lag on top of the fact that it also looks like jump squats have dead frames in them if you're performing an air dodge right out of short hop. Makes it look very unnatural.

Wavedash needs individual character ground friction and angle of control stick to make it anywhere close to Melee. Not saying it should replicate Melee's but adding those two values give you the most control of your character's wavedash for micro movements. I rather it be taken out as a whole if the demonstrations is what it looks like as a finished product.
 
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It could be the degree of tilt (left or right) for the micro-spacing, rather than having to use diagonals. That would make it easier. Just an option.
Also, yes there is lag. It's not that bad that you can't use it, but you won't be able to attack fast out of it.

Fox does a few (quasi) wavedashes in this video (look starting the 1 min mark), so you can see a bit what it looks like at this stage:

Thinking they'll tweek it for the final release. Hopefully it'll be useful :)
 
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Flowen231

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After reading this article I really doubt that wavedashing won't be coming back in the for that we're used to seeing it. https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...es-and-additions-choosing-taunts-much-more/2/

Granted this does apply a mite more towards L canceling, unlike wavedashing where you can make the case that sometimes it's better not to wavedash. But Sakurai is trying to make the game as intuitive and easy to pick up in the lower levels of the game as possible, and while those of us who played melee and PM for a long time may indeed find it intuitive, new players don't seem to. Even some of us (myself included) who are used to doing it don't want it back for one reason or another. I doubt they'd ever add it back the same way as before, but I still like the idea of an independent wavedash input like Quillion stated.
 

iankobe

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Nintendo/Sakurai can make the next Smash game however complicated/casual they want. Us, the consumers/buyers simply have no choice but to adapt to whatever product we will be receiving in December. Having said that, casual or competitive...we are all on the same boat/ starting point once the game is released. May it be L-cancelling, Wavedashing or chaingrabbing, etc. that pre-existed in previous Smash Generations, all we are asking for is a game that can be played both competitively and casually without any random elements that follows a similar formula like Melee/smash 4. Unlike Brawl.

Let's say Nintendo/Sakurai does include a "technical move" such as wavedashing. It is up to the gamer (casual or competitive) to utilize it. Look at perfect shielding for example. It's intended to be a more advanced input that takes lots of practice to master. Same goes with any other moves. It's all up to Nintendo if they want to make this game "technical" because Gamers are the ones who cater to the Game, not the other way around.

Just to reiterate, it really doesn't matter what Nintendo does with Smash Ultimate. The game will ultimately be played both casually and competitively no matter how Sakurai intended Smash to be. If you practice a skill or a hobby long enough, you'll always be better than those who play it "casually". Just like a sport.

Let's just be thankful that we have a pretty exciting game coming in December. That alone should be worth celebrating.
 

lordvaati

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Bill and Nate think that wavedashing per se might not exist, but something else.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...with_nintendos_bill_trinen_and_nate_bihldorff

With the penalties that they put on repeated dashing, do you think that wave dashing will basically not be a thing?

Bihldorff: That is interesting. I was reading some initial reactions from the players last May and it is funny after one day it is like they are trying to figure out what techniques are going to be possible. I think that it is going to take some time for this game to mature with the pro players.

It isn't going to feel exactly like any of the other games. So the side techniques, they have their own language at this point. With dashing, wave dashing, this sort of thing. I don't know what they're going to come up with. I think that it will be different, but it will be robust.

Trinen: The other thing to keep in mind is that wave dashing wasn't discovered until 9 months after the game launched. This game hasn't even launched. It isn't even at its point to start balancing yet. Even with the Wii U game, they were finding new tech, new combos and things like that, long after launch. There's a lot to uncover about the game, especially once they start to piece together all of these changes fit together.

Bihldorff: I couldn't believe how many good techniques I already saw in that tournament, with literally less than five or six hours of practice with the game, so I don't think it'll be called wave dashing, it'll be called something else, but there are so many movement tools available, that I can't wait to see what the pro community does with this thing. I think they're going to find a lot of awesome techniques.

Trinen: The one person that I want to call out from that tournament was the dude, Pac-Man cosplayer. Not only did he have good cosplay, but he actually was a pretty good Pac-Man player.
 

Thinkaman

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That's called a triangle jump, and the airdodge minimum jump time + landing lag both make it impractical. (As far as we can tell)

Triangle jumping could most simply be described as a roll alternative. It is a distinctly defensive maneuver.
 

SUDOZELDA

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Yea, you can. But I don't believe its not as useful after a while since in this game air dodging gets slower and more punishable the more you use it.
 
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Hisry

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It's obvious that you can wavedash in Ultimate, there's a lot of evidence for it.
But that footage looks a little blurry, like they could've rolled.
 
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One major issue for wave dashing in Ultimate is how a directional air dodge doesn't give you movement immediately. Not that I've seen. You just sort of float there a few frames before the air dodge takes you anywhere while a Melee air dodge allows for movement on the very first frame. I could be wrong though. I'm also not certain you can buffer the air dodge since there's a startling amount of confusion regarding the execution of this mechanic. Whatever the full story is. Here's Sheik performing a wave dash unintentionally.

Looking at that example, Sheik hit the ground again a whole ten frames after her jumpsquat begins. And fresh directional air dodge landing lag is 15 frames. So in total the movement took 25 frames compared to the 13-18 a perfectly executed air dodge would be in Melee depending on character. 25 is not that much faster than a backward roll and certainly provides much less distance. Changing air dodges to make you move immediately might result in them being more powerful than intended for general use. But I would just flip the floaty instance. Instead of being motionless on the first frames, make it like melee where you sort of float at the end of your air dodge. That way wave dashing works better but directional air dodges are still punishable when they've escaped your combo.

And if wave dashing did work proper it'd be kind of useful I guess. Microspacing isn't much of a concern thanks to dash cancels granting you most of the options wave dashing did, and faster jumpsquats/landing lag letting you stay on the move. And the absolute fastest a wave dash would be is 18 frames uniformly across the roster rather than favoring already fast characters. Reducing the landing lag of either type of air dodge doesn't sound appealing since it's already much lower than Smash 4's. But I am intrigued at the idea of wave dashing coming with the cost of making all your later dodges worse just to use this movement option. That would grant more depth to the mechanic that I assume people would mostly use as a OoS option.
 
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I feel like what would make wavedash work is that air dodge would register landing lag if the characters contacts the ground after a certain number of frames in the animation. If you were only air dodging in a direction for a few frames, then you don’t get landing lag and can slide, if you go over that set amount of frames, you get lag. Or maybe if you had to land after a certain altitude idk.

whatever I mean you can neutral air dodge and get no lag but I can’t dodge into the ground a slide without lag? what the hell, man.

Still, looks dope. I have hope.
 

adlp

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the fact that you cant waveland off of platforms really sucks. makes me less excited about the game
 
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