The future of wave dashing/wave landing.

GHNeko

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You guys are nitpicking arguments. Point is that Wavedashing, along with other techniques, contributes to the high APM of Melee. A high APM can not only turn off players thinking of playing seriously but can cause hand issues in the long run for some.
This is true, but you have to add the caveat of "along with other techniques" which doesn't make much sense to me when we've been focusing on just wavedashing/wavelanding this whole thread. :wacko:

Secondly, the APM of Melee is inflated by the gravity/physics of the game. Everyone in melee falls faster and moves quicker than Brawl, 4, and Ultimate. Even if you ported all the mechanics of Melee 100% perfectly to Ultimate, Ultimate will still have a lower APM simply because the physics are slower.

Third, I'm not sure where you get that wavedashing is unintuitive. That's a subjective take if nothing else. It's pretty inuitive to me, and other people. :wacko:
 
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mimgrim

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Has it occurred to anyone that is pro-wavedashing that it is fundamentally an unintuitive mechanic?
I would argue the opposite. It makes sense that with directional airdodges that momentum would keep if airdodged at an angle.

As for feel of it being intuitive or input being intuitive, totally subjective and doesn't actually matter in the long run.
 

Skyblade12

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Actually, the advanced techniques that are huge and hard to do do scare off players, or at least the theory that they do was enough for Sakurai to remove them in Brawl. He has taken that into account.

So it's not really a fallacy for it to be taken into account. And yes, many players do find these techniques confusing and awkward. I've talked to them myself. It does actually happen. It might not be the majority, perhaps, but it shouldn't be ignored.
I'm pretty sure it is the majority.

If that’s the case, Melee should of dropped like a rock of socks when Brawl hit. Yet, it’s still going strong. Ultimate will show us if it can last past three consecutive games.

I disagree. However, I do think he’s trying to find a happy medium between current mechanics and Melee mechanics.
Tripping alone would have kept the competitive crowd stuck on Melee.

I think he's found a happy medium between them. In fact, I think he found that happy medium with Smash 4.

Mod edit: Other stuff removed as it's clearly just going to start a flame war.
 
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GHNeko

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I'm pretty sure it is the majority.
Can we not make very bold claims on what the "majority" holds as an opinion without a really good way to back it up?

It's a lot easier to hold a back and forth when posts dont consist of how "the majority" feels in attempts to give your post some "substance".

No one here really has the means to gauge the collective majority opinion of what said majority prefers or wants, so it's really flaky to go that route. :wacko:
 
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Red Ryu

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If we are talking about APM being an issue for people the big problem was what spacies, Fox and Falco, required to play optimally.

If there is an issue with Melee bringing the cap higher when they don’t need to it’s tech like L canceling and 0 frame buffer, these are things that make the game harder but really doesn’t add anything to the game other than just to make it harder to be harder to get into. 0 frame buffer is also a terrible idea in a game that plans for online play.

Wavedashing and wavelanding aren’t in the same boat. They do add to the game and honestly aren’t that hard to implement once get a hang of it. They would just need to make sure the characters were balanced around that option existing.

Wavedashing and wavelanding don’t exclude that much and is pretty simple to do so helping that come back would be a good thing. Most players at the invotational gave this as feedback to improve it just slightly so we may see more changes on this front.

The things that were turn offs to new players and such are for the most part gone.
 

DarkStar64

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What?

The things that are actively looking to make Ultimate anti-combo has already been discovered:

the stupid balloon knockback and lower hitstun than s4 according to Coney and Dabuz.

Maybe argue for changing those instead of labeling a legitimate platform movement (pretty important for, you know, a 2D platform fighter...) as "anti-combo".
Lower hitstun than Smash 4? Every other player has been saying that the hitstun has been increased including Zero and some of the Melee players like Armada and Mango
 
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DarkStar64

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I think we are all at this point a little ill informed on this new game unless you were at E3 personally and had some hands on time with the game. Apparently, even if you were at E3 there are conflicting reports like Red Ryu Red Ryu said, so we'll all just have to wait until December unfortunately to make solid opinions on this game but I'm personally hoping that they'll listen to the top players and fix knockback and increase hitstun further so we might have a more interesting competitive game than Smash 4 moving forward (also possibly fix wavelanding and implement wavedashing more fluidly to get back on topic)
 

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JV5Chris

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Being able to cancel out of a dash with any attack is a welcome addition, but just like the crouch cancel in Melee it’s not a substitute for the spacing options wavedashing provides.

There is an easy solution here. Take the same philosophy behind the new short hop attack input (jump + attack) and apply it to the wavedash (jump + dodge).

Lowering that barrier of entry and introducing newer players to a technique that has shaped the Smash community for over a decade would fit perfectly with the goals of this game. By this point it’s soo engrained in the franchise history that it’s a little odd to call this the “Ultimate” Smash game without it.

I emplore the dev team to listen to the players at the invitational that all seem to echo the same sentiment. The tired debate over whether wavedashing was intentional or not is moot. Experiment and see for yourselves what’s fun. Quite confident you’ll find it will enhance and compliment the existing gameplay. Good luck.
 
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skstylez

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Wavedashing isn't hard.. MELEE is! seriously consistent short hops with fox is hard in itself. In PM wavedash was significantly easier, and will be made even easier with Ultimate's physics.

Furthermore, canceling dash is not new. In melee you could crouch from dash allowing use of any move. That didn't invalidate wavedash as said before. Wavedash is microspacing, jump cancels (shield/specials) and platform movement. M2k also confirmed that to act out of dash you need to wait for the dash animation. Which is the area wavedash excels.

Wavedashing is a great mechanic that seems to be misunderstood. It's not a glitch, it's not spammable, and it doesn't transform whatever it touches into "melee". And it's not hard. Seriously, if learning to hold diagonal, jump then press dodge scares you, i don't see your interest in competitive smash.
 

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It's fine to not like a technique. It's not fine to shove your opinion down people's throats and completely ignore counterarguments.
If you're that concerned about microspacing, there's this thing called walking that's been in all six games.
 
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JV5Chris

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If you're that concerned about microspacing, there's this thing called walking that's been in all six games.
I wonder how Castlevania fans would react if the devs removed the backdash and told players to just walk back and turn around instead.

Case in point, walking and wavedashing compliment eachother with the spacing game.
 
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Red Ryu

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Hmmm that would make a lot more sense. Again, this is coming straight from Coney and Dabuz's tweets after they played the game in E3.

Sources:

https://twitter.com/coneyzz/status/1006673740757778432

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/1006962079335579654
I think what they are referring to is in part some of the balance changes and the fact this game is now doing a 1.2 multiplier on damage and that balloon stuff people are experiencing. A lot of basic combos like Ike's throw combos and Mewtwo's stuff is still working like it did in Smash 4.

Some moves were also nerfed like Mario's Utilt so people said you get less off of it which I think in that case was a nerf and not a result of the damage increase.

I doubt that it was purposely decreased, since that seems to be the opposite of what they did with the patches in Smash 4. What we are seeing is engine changes along with balance changes. Not surprising given they reworked it from the ground up and added something make games speed up in singles.

I wonder how Castlevania fans would react if the devs removed the backdash and told players to just walk back and turn around instead.

Case in point, walking and wavedashing compliment eachother with the spacing game.
That's kind of apples and oranges with a non fighting game in there.

His point was more so it's not needed with micro spacing since walking in traditional fighters is how they work with it.

I would still prefer that if they did add it, they balance characters with it in mind being able to do that. There is a big difference between what Peach gets off a wavedash and what other characters get for mileage on it in Melee and PM.
 

Atem

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If they add full wavedash they should make so if cant be spamed, like rolls or airdodge, add more lag the more you use it.
So far it looks like it is exactly likely. Most professional smash players have said that wave dashing has been weakened and the nerf in rolls and air dodging will most likely make it less spamable.
 
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Gearkeeper-8a

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So far it looks like it is exactly likely. Most professional smash players have said that wave dashing has been weakened and the nerf in rolls and air dodging will most likely make it less spamable.
well i think that right now its has like 17-19 frames of landing lag, so maybe reduce it to like 11-14 and make so its add like 5 or 3 more frames the more you use it consecutively, like the stale-move mechanic.
 

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While they're clearly taking feedback and trying to make the game more competitive, I sincerely doubt that wave dashing as we know it will make it into the final build. Stupid as it may sound, I honestly think it has more to do with the optics of wave dashing than anything else. Everybody I've talked to about this game outside of the core Smash Bros. crowd has had nothing to say about this if not that it looks extremely polished and that the animations and visual upgrades over Wii U really make the game stand out.

In my opinion, every fighter sliding around in a way they never would in their game of origin just doesn't seem like something this team would implement as an intentional, competitive mechanic. So unless they are able to integrate the function of a wave dash into a proper animation for every character, I feel like it's going to stay as intentionally pointless to do as it was in this build.
 
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JV5Chris

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That's kind of apples and oranges with a non fighting game in there.

His point was more so it's not needed with micro spacing since walking in traditional fighters is how they work with it.

I would still prefer that if they did add it, they balance characters with it in mind being able to do that. There is a big difference between what Peach gets off a wavedash and what other characters get for mileage on it in Melee and PM.
Castlevania may exist in a different genre, but the challenge of simultaneously managing spacing and facing direction parallels Smash. Generally speaking, traditional fighters don’t demand both of players. When you want to move a step back in Street Fighter you don’t then have to course correct your alignment.

This is why the backdash was such a pivotal moment for the Castlevania series. It takes a commonly executed movement sequence (move back, face forward) and streamlines it into a single fluid action. Quite the opposite of what walking feels like in Smash when used as a spacing tool. There is room for refinement there with the re-introduction of the wavedash.
 
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Atem

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While they're clearly taking feedback and trying to make the game more competitive, I sincerely doubt that wave dashing as we know it will make it into the final build. Stupid as it may sound, I honestly think it has more to do with the optics of wave dashing than anything else. Everybody I've talked to about this game outside of the core Smash Bros. crowd has had nothing to say about this if not that it looks extremely polished and that the animations and visual upgrades over Wii U really make the game stand out.

In my opinion, every fighter sliding around in a way they never would in their game of origin just doesn't seem like something this team would implement as an intentional, competitive mechanic. So unless they are able to integrate the function of a wave dash into a proper animation for every character, I feel like it's going to stay as intentionally pointless to do as it was in this build.
I personally think wave dashing makes the game more competitive because it adds more combos and escape options. No new animations would be needed for wave dashing since it is just the landing animation. Also wave dashing was not intended by the developers left it in for melee. I just don’t know why they would need animations.
 
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Keep it up, this is a tricky issue.
My 2 cents, wavedashing is both a turn off for some players, just like it's great for competitive options. That can be hard to balance.

Nintendo doesn't cater only to the competitive scene, in fact, it's been the opposite, and you have to take their intention into account, which includes others, like casuals and kids who want to have a good time, including online. It's not just about you or a group. If they can find a way to include wavedashing or similar to increase options, you know they'll do it so long as they're still true to their intentions, theyve been great with the new competitive changes obviously they're listening. Enjoy what the game has to offer, it's going to have a lot! And if we're lucky, they'll find a way to stay true to themselves as well as all the kinds of players, as much as they can.

Personally, I'd want an easier or 'equal' mechanic, because there's just something a 'little' offputting and hard about the original melee wavedash, even after trying to get it going for quite a while (note: by offputting i mean both visually as well as playing & playing against). But I do like it in another way too.
I think the game is already heading in a great direction, and I trust nintendo to do the best they can to please the most they can. <3
 
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Red Ryu

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Still a bad analogy. Walking back and forth in traditional fighters is seemeless as thet don't have to turn around.
The point is we do have a tool for microspacing which is something a lot of games have, which is walking. Wavedashing can let you do it, but walking and some dash movement we have can do the same.

So do we want people to airdodge into the ground again with less lag? Would the game be balanced around it or are we going to just shove it in and then let some character get some options off it whole others don’t get much.

That’s the question on this.

Castlevania may exist in a different genre, but the challenge of simultaneously managing spacing and facing direction parallels Smash. Generally speaking, traditional fighters don’t demand both of players. When you want to move a step back in Street Fighter you don’t then have to course correct your alignment.

This is why the backdash was such a pivotal moment for the Castlevania series. It takes a commonly executed movement sequence (move back, face forward) and streamlines it into a single fluid action. Quite the opposite of what walking feels like in Smash when used as a spacing tool. There is room for refinement there with the re-introduction of the wavedash.
And that’s fine for Castlevania but would we need it fir microspacing? Would it be that essential or does the game have the tools to do it as is? Especially since almost any action can be done from a dash and walking, would it be essential for this? It’s a valid question and for me I think can add value to the game but there are things to consider with it that we shouldn’t gloss over.
 

mimgrim

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The point is we do have a tool for microspacing which is something a lot of games have, which is walking. Wavedashing can let you do it, but walking and some dash movement we have can do the same.
walking is a bad micro spacing tool in Smash is my point because it takes too long to turn around, only Ryu would be able to use walking as a good micro spacing tool right now. Don't get me wrong walking has its place, but it isn't for micro spacing in Smash.

Dashing is not micro spacing cause you can't control the length of a dash. Dash dancing gives the seemless back and forth that traditional fighters have with walking but because you can't full control the length like you can with walking its more of a macro spacing tool.

Now if every character was like Ryu in 1 on 1 fights with walking it would be a different thing but that isn't the case.
 

GHNeko

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I love how a smartass comment about walking completely shifted the tone of the thread lmfao

especially when walking, wavedashing, and dash dancing are all used regularly based on the situation in the moment, so walking isn't something that should even be brought up because it's been a thing and still is a thing.
 
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In my opinion, wavedashing isn't bad and personally I don't care if it gets in the game. it's just that, it looks really silly and odd to see these characters move across the ground like there "hovering" or something. If the dev team does add it at least make it look nice and polished (like an animation when you preform it). Not out of place like before.
 

JV5Chris

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And that’s fine for Castlevania but would we need it fir microspacing? Would it be that essential or does the game have the tools to do it as is? Especially since almost any action can be done from a dash and walking, would it be essential for this? It’s a valid question and for me I think can add value to the game but there are things to consider with it that we shouldn’t gloss over.
Quite simply, washdashing, if made a simple input (jump + dodge), would be a refinement of the controls and gameplay, giving players an easier input for a common desired outcome. What makes walking, something already a bit cumbersome in Smash given the required micro adjustments of an analog input, soo perfect that it shouldn’t be suplimented with a streamlined movement option? Castlevania, even with its d-pad control, benefited from the backdash action. Why can’t Smash? Especially when there is already evidence of it working well with the established gameplay.
 
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Red Ryu

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walking is a bad micro spacing tool in Smash is my point because it takes too long to turn around, only Ryu would be able to use walking as a good micro spacing tool right now. Don't get me wrong walking has its place, but it isn't for micro spacing in Smash.

Dashing is not micro spacing cause you can't control the length of a dash. Dash dancing gives the seemless back and forth that traditional fighters have with walking but because you can't full control the length like you can with walking its more of a macro spacing tool.

Now if every character was like Ryu in 1 on 1 fights with walking it would be a different thing but that isn't the case.
I love how a smartass comment about walking completely shifted the tone of the thread lmfao

especially when walking, wavedashing, and dash dancing are all used regularly based on the situation in the moment, so walking isn't something that should even be brought up because it's been a thing and still is a thing.
This isn't wrong and in a melee or pm setting I agree but sometimes I do wonder if those options overlap. Given the new movement options out of a dash it would add a lot more but would i tred caution as in those past games, what was the balancing factor for how far characters could move? I don't think slapping it in would be a good idea, you need to think about balance and then movesets when making these changes. Does it add more to the game? Sure it can and if you asked me personally I would also be for it. This issue is I do not think the caution or the resistance with adding it is a bad thing either. There is some gear there when adding it and what it offers and even if it is needed.
 

mimgrim

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This isn't wrong and in a melee or pm setting I agree but sometimes I do wonder if those options overlap. Given the new movement options out of a dash it would add a lot more but would i tred caution as in those past games, what was the balancing factor for how far characters could move? I don't think slapping it in would be a good idea, you need to think about balance and then movesets when making these changes. Does it add more to the game? Sure it can and if you asked me personally I would also be for it. This issue is I do not think the caution or the resistance with adding it is a bad thing either. There is some gear there when adding it and what it offers and even if it is needed.
The "balancing" factor was traction, characters with less traction had longer wavedashes and vice versa. In its history of being implemented, so melee and pm, it has been the big factor, or even close to it and hardly even a factor bar someone like Luigi who has a really long wavedash yet remains far from being top tier in either game, for a character to be "busted" its other factors. Wavedashing has never made a character busted in its history and has actually managed to give certain characters a fighting chance as opposed without it. Evidence so far suggests it does not hurt the game in the slightest but rather only adds to it.

Trying to speak from objective point as possible cause personally, while I would like to have it in Ultimate but I don't need it, there are other things I would rather see implemented first, such as, waveland off platforms and keeping momentum outta jump and making dd even closer to melee. Wavedash would just be icing on the cake for me.
 

Flowen231

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I don't really want wavedashing back for 3 very simple reasons.

1) I really like the punish dynamic they went for in the demo. In smash 4 if you air dodge into the ground you have landing lag, which was a great because it encouraged composed play rather than panic options, and it would give keen players fair time to react and punish with something big. Directional air dodging in smashu gives you more lag than regular air dodging which builds upon that dynamic where if you read your opponent you can get a bigger punish, but if they fool you they end up further away from your pressure.

2) I don't like how it would circumvent some character weaknesses. Luigi is a prime example of this, if he grabs you in smash 4 he's gonna mess you up, bad. The counterbalance to this was his bad dash and mediocre approach options. Adding a functional wavedash would just remove that weakness and I'll admit this one is a bit more just my preference, but I don't like invalidating character weaknesses through an all encompassing mechanic. L landing kinda did that too and I was kind of in the minority who thought it shouldn't be a thing and characters should be that fast by default. I always did prefer low landing lag and a more aggressive meta but I digress.

3) It's not really necessary. Other than the fact that it would ruin 2 dynamics that I personally like, it's plain and simply not needed. Melee did fine with it, smash 4 did fine without it, brawl would not really have been better with it, and I see no reason to bring it back when we're still good as is.

I mean, if it came back I'd be cool with it, but if I had that choice I'd say no 10/10 times.
 
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mimgrim

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I don't really want wavedashing back for 3 very simple reasons.

1) I really like the punish dynamic they went for in the demo. In smash 4 if you air dodge into the ground you have landing lag, which was a great because it encouraged composed play rather than panic options, and it would give keen players fair time to react and punish with something big. Directional air dodging in smashu gives you more lag than regular air dodging which builds upon that dynamic where if you read your opponent you can get a bigger punish, but if they fool you they end up further away from your pressure.
I mean I would be ok with wavedashing having more lag then it does in Melee or Project M and adding to the dodge counter ultimate has. It would definitely add a more nuanced form to using it that way. Like it doesn't have ti be exactly how it functions in Melee for me to enjoy it. But more movement options is always nice for me cause I find movement to be on of the most fun aspects to Smash.

2) I don't like how it would circumvent some character weaknesses. Luigi is a prime example of this, if he grabs you in smash 4 he's gonna mess you up, bad. The counterbalance to this was his bad dash and mediocre approach options. Adding a functional wavedash would just remove that weakness and I'll admit this one is a bit more just my preference, but I don't like invalidating character weaknesses through an all encompassing mechanic.
I've gone over this already but in its history of being implemented wavedashing does not suddenly make a bad character amazing by itself, and certainly doesn't invalidate a weakness.

Coming from a Project M example because I'm far less knowledgeable on Melee with Luigi, he's similar to Smash 4 Luigi in terms of gameplan. If he gets close enough he's gonna combo you and mess you up quite a bit and while he does have wavedashing his approach options are still pretty bad, especially cause of his horrid aerial mobility, he still sucks at approaching. Instead he uses wavedash as a mean of tricking you and staying unpredictable, which only adds to his strength of "slipperyness" but not to such a degree that he is suddenly borked, just gives him more of an equal footing. In 4 he did ok without due to the nature of the game, but if the game gets faster like ultimate is looking like its going to be it could potentially hurt him more without something like that.
 
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As a newcomer to the smash competitive scene in general, I can tell that one of the aspects of this game series that makes it so replayable is that there's always something new to learn. Whether you're a smash 4 player who emphasizes the importance of learning matchups and getting experience or if you're a melee player grinding for tech skill, the depth of the game is what has allowed the series and specific titles to thrive for so long. Looking at melee, the game is such a simple concept at heart, but what allowed for it to have a second life was the discovery of new and intuitive things you can do in the game that created a whole new level of competition: wave dashing, L canceling, wave landing, etc. Smash 4 was relatively straightforward, and that scene's player pool thinned out over time, with little chance of it seeing a resurgence in the future. I think it has something to do with lack of techniques that separate the pros from the casual enthusiasts.

My point is: wave dashing in general seems like an intuitive concept that revolutionized melee and added further depth to the game. If Smash Ultimate were to add it into the engine, it may or may not be useful; as many have said before, you can basically do anything out of dash, so it seems useless for the time being. It wouldn't bother me if it weren't included, but the game has to have some other elements to give the game more depth; some crazy mechanic that players can exploit in order to change the game completely by adding new rules and layers into the neutral game. Let players get creative, you know?
 

Quillion

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I'd like to repost something that I posted earlier in this thread:

Honestly, if they were going to implement a wavedash-like mechanic, they would've made it a "dash button" instead. I honestly would've preferred that over a purely emergent dash exploit.
While I can see the physical appeal of technicality in Smash, that's best left to other fighting games. Technicality in Smash should be limited to combos and nothing more.
 
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If I were Sakurai, in good conscience and knowing full well what happens to someone if they wavedash too often, would not include wavedashing back. He has already suffered enough arm injuries and noone would wish what he was on their worst enemy. By not including wavedashing, he would only let down a small portion of the Smash fanbase albeit the most vocal.
Wtf

Don’t act like this man is doing us a favor he’s making bank from this game.

The point of contengency for his injuries sailed after you agreed to make a game with over 60 characters, items, stages, so on and so forth.

He may as well go the whole nine yards and program some **** you still getting my 65+ dollars for the game plus any royalties from game cube controllers, adapters and smash bros related periphenelia sold from Nintendo.

Please miss me with that sorry for Sakurai stuff. I’m greatful for him making the game but it’s not like he is doing this for free.

The point is we do have a tool for microspacing which is something a lot of games have, which is walking. Wavedashing can let you do it, but walking and some dash movement we have can do the same.

So do we want people to airdodge into the ground again with less lag? Would the game be balanced around it or are we going to just shove it in and then let some character get some options off it whole others don’t get much.

That’s the question on this.
It’s the same thing for perfect pivoting, some characters had better ones than others due to their unique dash animations and individual physics

There already tools in measure to allow the game to recognize when dodging is abused too much. I’m theory you could give a character lag from sliding with an air dodge when they airborne for a certain period of time, like, a short hop. This would of course imply that to successfully wave dash with minimal lag you would have to do so with great precision, otherwise you’ll achieve the minimal altitude to gain lag. This way, it would give incentive for players not to just air dodge away, but use their air dodge to Lang smoothly and space away from an attack, which can still be read and punished, of course.

This is just an idea, but ideally, the game should at least allow wavelanding off the edge and if possible with minimal lag. Being able to follow up off of platforms and tech chase is something all characters can benefit from.
 

The21stSmasher

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Tbh, while wave-dashing WAS fun back in PM and Melee days, but mainly the PM days, I don't care for it, especially this time around. I didn't need it in my gameplay then and I don't need it now. Although, I don't blame the others that want wave-dashing to return, because directional air-dodges are back.

Wave-landing is looking quite handy in Smash Ultimate, especially for the characters that don't got no good landing options. And that's fine by me. :)
 

Flowen231

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I mean I would be ok with wavedashing having more lag then it does in Melee or Project M and adding to the dodge counter ultimate has. It would definitely add a more nuanced form to using it that way. Like it doesn't have ti be exactly how it functions in Melee for me to enjoy it. But more movement options is always nice for me cause I find movement to be on of the most fun aspects to Smash.



I've gone over this already but in its history of being implemented wavedashing does not suddenly make a bad character amazing by itself, and certainly doesn't invalidate a weakness.

Coming from a Project M example because I'm far less knowledgeable on Melee with Luigi, he's similar to Smash 4 Luigi in terms of gameplan. If he gets close enough he's gonna combo you and mess you up quite a bit and while he does have wavedashing his approach options are still pretty bad, especially cause of his horrid aerial mobility, he still sucks at approaching. Instead he uses wavedash as a mean of tricking you and staying unpredictable, which only adds to his strength of "slipperyness" but not to such a degree that he is suddenly borked, just gives him more of an equal footing. In 4 he did ok without due to the nature of the game, but if the game gets faster like ultimate is looking like its going to be it could potentially hurt him more without something like that.
I like movement too, but not when they downplay other dynamics that I like more. None of the other universal movement options really hinder that first dynamic but wavedashing would. Lets use that happy medium example you mentioned where wavedashing is less laggy but not as lagless as melee and pm. What would be the point of neutral air dodge? Making it less laggy would eliminate the dynamic all together so you'd have to keep it as is and in that state it's going to be objectively less useful as a defensive tool than the directional variant. And by making directional air dodging less laggy in general you create a stronger disadvantage state since you have less lag on top of greater dodge distance.

Quick note btw, that bit above refers to the punishing dynamic, I'm bringing it up because wavedashing by it's own nature would require less landing lag on grounded air dodging, and even if it's used as a means of movement it would also affect other aspects of the game such as the disadvantage state I mentioned above.

I'm not suggesting that wavedashing makes luigi overpowered. I used him as an example because he's a good example of a character with a weakness that would be toned down unfairly by wavedashing. The whole "slipperyness" thing isn't really being honest. Both in melee and PM luigi uses wavedashing not just as enhanced movement, but also to approach. I never claimed that luigi would become broken with it ( I think you brought it up actually, but I didn't read the whole topic, just dumping my 50 cents lol ), I just stated a simple fact; If luigi could wavedash it would majorly downplay one of his biggest weaknesses as he is an amazing close range fighter who is limited by his terrible movement. And I do not agree with a mechanic that selectively amends weaknesses at the cost of other aspects of the game that any character can benefit from.

While we're on that subject though. I'm gonna borrow some of my experience with tekken on this one. In tekken you can perform a crouch dash by entering the input (forward, neutral, down, down forward). It's a stance that loads of characters in the game have that both boosts their mobility, and allows them to close distances and cancel it into many moves on top of being able to control how far you dash based on how long you hold the last input for. If wavedashing was it's own thing like that then I could really get behind it rather than having it jack up other mechanics.
 
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I think some people who are advocating for wavedashing even with the inclusion of run canceling, namely the people who say the more difficult something is, the better the game lasts, are missing the main reason people like wavedashing, and it isn't the generally weird and unintuitive button input, but the OPTIONS it gives the player.

This is what we need to focus on. It doesn't have to be wavedashing specifically, but giving more options for the player to do things against the opponent is only a good thing. Honestly, I think the best course of action with the inclusion of run cancelling is still to bring back something like wavedashing, but in a heavily limited manner, and not just in terms of the new dodge staling mechanic, but also a hard range on it, similar to Rivals of Aether, where the wavedash suddenly caused the character to stop after a hard distance.

I don't think it should be that clunky, but instead have it so all characters have a specific wavedash "traction" value irrespective of their general ground traction, that way every character does the same wavedash, but it actually slows down and all that. In addition, make it have a button macro just like the new shorthop attack button combo with jump+dodge.

This makes it easier and more intuitive for the average player to grasp, more balanced between characters due to the uniformity of the distance, and balances with itself and other movement options via the new dodge staling mechanic making it have resource management as its main downside (do I roll/spotdodge for defensive purposes, or wavedash for offense?)
 
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