Pre-Release The future of wave dashing/wave landing.

[LilTurel]

Ah okay guys thanks for informing me made it sound like wave dashing will cripple you or some **** like that lmao.

 

[EMT~]

It seems that there's an impression in this thread that pivot skid cancels will serve as a replacement to wavedashing. I'm not sure how much I agree with that.

Wavedashing, at it's core, is a tool that allows for more fluid movement and precise microspacing when combined with the other mobility tools in the game. Skid canceling won't entirely replace these aspects. For example, wavedashing gives you the ability to change your direction at-will at any point during a run; skid cancels can only cause you to stop. Wavedashing allows for more precise movements, as skid cancels requires at least enough space for you to complete your initial dash and start your run. Additionally, for the same reason, skid canceling takes longer to execute. A wavedash can be executed in a number of frame equivalent to the jumpsquat of your character. whereas skid canceling requires a number of frames no less than the length of your character's dash animation. Skid cancels don't contribute to platform movement at all, either, whereas wavedashing constitutes a huge part of certain character's platform movement in Melee (Yoshi). Finally, it looks like you cancel the skid with an attack. In other words, it doesn't look like you can skid cancel into shield or into another dash, the way you can chain wavedashes together or wavedash into shield.

While I can see pivot canceling working all right for spacing before attacking like wavedashes can be, it's a much more clumsy method of doing so, in that it requires more time and space to pull off. And wavedashing gives you options that skid canceling doesn't.

And let's keep in mind, forward dash canceling isn't even confirmed yet.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It seems that there's an impression in this thread that pivot skid cancels will serve as a replacement to wavedashing. I'm not sure how much I agree with that.

Wavedashing, at it's core, is a tool that allows for more fluid movement and precise microspacing when combined with the other mobility tools in the game. Skid canceling won't entirely replace these aspects. For example, wavedashing gives you the ability to change your direction at-will at any point during a run; skid cancels can only cause you to stop. Wavedashing allows for more precise movements, as skid cancels requires at least enough space for you to complete your initial dash and start your run. Additionally, for the same reason, skid canceling takes longer to execute. A wavedash can be executed in a number of frame equivalent to the jumpsquat of your character. whereas skid canceling requires a number of frames no less than the length of your character's dash animation. Skid cancels don't contribute to platform movement at all, either, whereas wavedashing constitutes a huge part of certain character's platform movement in Melee (Yoshi). Finally, it looks like you cancel the skid with an attack. In other words, it doesn't look like you can skid cancel into shield or into another dash, the way you can chain wavedashes together or wavedash into shield.

While I can see pivot canceling working all right for spacing before attacking like wavedashes can be, it's a much more clumsy method of doing so, in that it requires more time and space to pull off. And wavedashing gives you options that skid canceling doesn't.

And let's keep in mind, forward dash canceling isn't even confirmed yet.

I agree with everything you just said, but forward dash canceling has been confirmed. Check the grand finals on the invitation. Zero was running forward and doing up tilts mid game.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Well if they’re too lazy then they can take their ***** home.

Cancelling your dash takes less time to master than wavedashing. Why would Sakurai want to add something more complicated when a much simpler solution is present?

 

[Atem]

Cancelling your dash takes less time to master than wavedashing. Why would Sakurai want to add something more complicated when a much simpler solution is present?

To give the new players another option. Like you said before wave dashing would scare off new player (which I believe is false). This would let the new player feel like they are getting better. This is the idea of smash in a nutshell. With the dash cancel being easy to master but wave dashing having the same properties but can give more (dropping to the ledge) for your extra technical skill.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, the advanced techniques that are huge and hard to do do scare off players, or at least the theory that they do was enough for Sakurai to remove them in Brawl. He has taken that into account.

So it's not really a fallacy for it to be taken into account. And yes, many players do find these techniques confusing and awkward. I've talked to them myself. It does actually happen. It might not be the majority, perhaps, but it shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

To give the new players another option. Like you said before wave dashing would scare off new player (which I believe is false). This would let the new player feel like they are getting better. This is the idea of smash in a nutshell. With the dash cancel being easy to master but wave dashing having the same properties but can give more (dropping to the ledge) for your extra technical skill.

I think the reason why Melee rarely sees new players anymore, besides age, is because of the huge barrier between new players and veterans. New players who get into Smash 4 have a much easier time and don't have to adapt as much. Smash Ultimate is going for simple to execute commands and wavedashing is not simple to execute.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I think the reason why Melee rarely sees new players anymore, besides age, is because of the huge barrier between new players and veterans. New players who get into Smash 4 have a much easier time and don't have to adapt as much. Smash Ultimate is going for simple to execute commands and wavedashing is not simple to execute.

This is so grossly false. Please stop. Entrants for Melee surpassed entrants for Smash 4 this year at EVO.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

This is so grossly false. Please stop. Entrants for Melee surpassed entrants for Smash 4 this year at EVO.

Still more new players in Sm4sh than Melee

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I’m not a competitive player in anything but, to me, playing competitively means training hard, studying and analyzing opposing players, and finding every way to give you an edge. Competitive Smash players will always find a way to improve competitively and to progress the competitive game forward - wave dash or without. Players will fund a way to improve their Ultimate game regardless which dinosaur mechanic or brand spanking new mechanic is included. That being said, if you don’t have the time or patience to improve yourself in Smash - then you don’t deserve to play competitively and will get left in the dust. Doesn’t matter if you are a new or old player; learn the game and get good or stop playing. That’s just how the world works.

God, I said that C-word so many times....

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I’m not a competitive player in anything but, to me, playing competitively means training hard, studying and analyzing opposing players, and finding every way to give you an edge. Competitive Smash players will always find a way to improve competitively and to progress the competitive game forward - wave dash or without. That being said, if you don’t have the time or patience to improve yourself in Smash - then you don’t deserve to play competitively and will get left in the dust. Doesn’t matter if you are a new or old player; learn the game and get good or stop plying. That’s just how the world works.

God, I said that C-word so many times....

Of course, obviously, it doesn't mean the techniques should be hard to get into. They should be easier to work with, as Sakurai has been going for.

But yeah, you need to train to be competitive. It's important to still have the game being easier to get into/learn those techniques too, as it gets quite a few more players in the long run.

Though it's clear that it's not always a necessity, as Melee clearly is still getting more players. Everybody has their own way of getting into games. I don't mind whatsoever when it comes to things like L-Cancelling, etc., but many do, and that's fine. Despite having bad hands these days, it doesn't bother me. Probably a bad way for me to go about it, but eh.

 

[ferioku]

Now don't take this the wrong way there is nothing wrong with being excited about a game but I can see why dahuter isn't happy.

If enough people don't see anything wrong with the game or don't think it's lacking in any way Nintendo will not think anything is wrong with the game. There are a lot more people that are willing to accept anything for a new Smash Brothers. And as long as that's the case Nintendo is not going to see a problem. Which is why we keep seeing the game get worse and worse with tech being removed (especially character specific Tech) no wavedashing,no L canceling or an auto cancel on aerials that actually let you safely pressure, a decent amount of hit stun and knock back, etc. All these things are needed in the latest Smash Brothers game if we want to finally merge the melee community with the community that will accept anything for a smash game. Now please don't go replying to me saying that you don't need these things to make the game good because even if they were there all you have to do is not use them and just play the game the way you like to while still giving that extra Skil margin with all this stuff for the melee players. But again I repeat this will never happen as long as there are more people that will accept anything like Smash 4 for a good Smash Brothers game

Landing lag and Hit stun definitely has been improved, the only thing that needs improving right now is probably a tiny bit more hitstun and improve the knock back. Dahuter was down right insulting the game by claiming it is smash 4.5 switch edition, which clearly shows his lack of excitement and resentment towards the game.

Sure i'm fine with all these changes that are being added and possibly more, but we don't have the power to do it directly, the only people that can actually make a change is the developers, and that is why the pro's and multiple gamers are giving feedback. Be patient and hopeful - there isn't a point bashing a game when it hasn't even been completed.

I'm up for Wave dashing returning. In fact i'm up for various tech to be added.

Also for anyone saying that Wavedashing is a complicated, it really isn't at all!

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Of course, obviously, it doesn't mean the techniques should be hard to get into. They should be easier to work with, as Sakurai has been going for.

But yeah, you need to train to be competitive. It's important to still have the game being easier to get into/learn those techniques too, as it gets quite a few more players in the long run.

Though it's clear that it's not always a necessity, as Melee clearly is still getting more players. Everybody has their own way of getting into games. I don't mind whatsoever when it comes to things like L-Cancelling, etc., but many do, and that's fine. Despite having bad hands these days, it doesn't bother me. Probably a bad way for me to go about it, but eh.

For some people (and I get the feeling it’s people who lean towards competitive playing) feel that learning hard-to-execute mechanics and moves and mastering them is the when you transition from a casual/semi-competitive player to an actual competitive player. They like the hard and grueling road less traveled to eventual success.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For some people (and I get the feeling it’s people who lean towards competitive playing) feel that learning hard-to-execute mechanics and moves and mastering them is the when you transition from a casual/semi-competitive player to an actual competitive player. They like the hard and grueling road less traveled to eventual success.

Too true.

I mean, I play casual-competitive myself, but I also don't overly practice either because I want to have fun as well. But to each their own.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Too true.

I mean, I play casual-competitive myself, but I also don't overly practice either because I want to have fun as well. But to each their own.

Same here. Or because I don’t have the time but that’s entirely on my end - not the games or community’s fault.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

For some people (and I get the feeling it’s people who lean towards competitive playing) feel that learning hard-to-execute mechanics and moves and mastering them is the when you transition from a casual/semi-competitive player to an actual competitive player. They like the hard and grueling road less traveled to eventual success.

I am grateful that these people exist, Melee wouldn't exist without them. However, I think (and it seems Sakurai does too) that easy to execute mechanics is what's gonna keep Smash Ult going in the long run.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I am grateful that these people exist, Melee wouldn't exist without them. However, I think (and it seems Sakurai does too) that easy to execute mechanics is what's gonna keep Smash Ult going in the long run.

If that’s the case, Melee should of dropped like a rock of socks when Brawl hit. Yet, it’s still going strong. Ultimate will show us if it can last past three consecutive games.

I disagree. However, I do think he’s trying to find a happy medium between current mechanics and Melee mechanics.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

...easy to execute mechanics is what's gonna keep Smash Ult going in the long run.

Wrong. What is going to keep SmashU going in the long run is how far it can be pushed as a game. If you peak early in terms of what you can do, people will lose interest. And they do: Look at the tournament attendance for any of the other games. If it were in terms of how easy to pick up the game is, 64 would still be king. You can't DACUS, wavedash, wall tech, dash cancel, or footstool in 64.

And look at another 64 game: Super Mario 64. To this day, people still speed run that game, and it has nothing to do with how easy it is to pick up. In fact, it is the opposite: the more difficult something is to do and the more possibilities that thing opens up, the more attractors that thing will reel in. Hence, competition.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

If that’s the case, Melee should of dropped like a rock of socks when Brawl hit. Yet, it’s still going strong. Ultimate will show us if it can last past three consecutive games.

This is the only Smash game that's built to be competitive. Melee is only around because of the people who worked hard at it. Melee has an immortal lifespan because of its players. Even P:M couldn't move Melee players away.

I disagree. However, I do think he’s trying to find a happy medium between current mechanics and Melee mechanics.

I believe dash cancelling is already that medium.

Wrong. What is going to keep SmashU going in the long run is how far it can be pushed as a game. If you peak early in terms of what you can do, people will lose interest. And they do: Look at the tournament attendance for any of the other games. If it were in terms of how easy to pick up the game is, 64 would still be king. You can't DACUS, wavedash, wall tech, dash cancel, or footstool in 64.

And look at another 64 game: Super Mario 64. To this day, people still speed run that game, and it has nothing to do with how easy it is to pick up. In fact, it is the opposite: the more difficult something is to do and the more possibilities that thing opens up, the more attractors that thing will reel in. Hence, competition.

He is trying to make advanced techs easy to accomplish. Wavedashing isn't easy to accomplish for most people. Making something similar to wavedashing easy is what he is already setting out to do.

 

[mimgrim]

And just how are you basing wavedash being hard for most people? I could just as easily claim the opposite.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wavedashing would actually be extremely easy with customizable controls and buffering. The input itself is simple enough, really just a SH airdodge.

Waveshining would be piss-easy too. Most of the difficulty of melee tech comes from the almost-but-not-perfect controller, the lack of buffer, and lack of customizeable controls. Not the actual inputs themselves.

And I don't think anyone wanting the landing lag of wavedashing reduced understands that it would make the game even more anti-combo than brawl with those anti-combo options. Essentially giving every character a ness/lucas/mewtwo airdodge.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

And just how are you basing wavedash being hard for most people? I could just as easily claim the opposite.

It isn't as simple as "holding the stick left or right and letting go and then doing an input."

 

[Atem]

It isn't as simple as "holding the stick left or right and letting go and then doing an input."

Still doesn’t answer why wave dashing is hard. With enough practice it could become second nature. That happens (mostly) with perfect pivoting and wave dashing.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Still doesn’t answer why wave dashing is hard. With enough practice it could become second nature.

Once again, dash cancelling is simpler than wavedashing. DC does not put as much strain on your hands over time as wavedashing does.

 

[DarkStar64]

Wavedashing/landing isn't very difficult, but I also feel like it isn't essential for this game to be good competitively. I would be happy if it found its way back into Smash after being absent for so long, but I don't feel like it is crucial for competitive success. However, I would agree that it can be taxing on your wrists and hands after a long period of time I know because I have carpal tunnel for that very reason.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

If I were Sakurai, in good conscience and knowing full well what happens to someone if they wavedash too often, would not include wavedashing back. He has already suffered enough arm injuries and noone would wish what he was on their worst enemy. By not including wavedashing, he would only let down a small portion of the Smash fanbase albeit the most vocal.

 

[mimgrim]

If I were Sakurai, in good conscience and knowing full well what happens to someone if they wavedash too often, would not include wavedashing back. He has already suffered enough arm injuries and noone would wish what he was on their worst enemy. By not including wavedashing, he would only let down a small portion of the Smash fanbase albeit the most vocal.

I'm sorry but you like spewing misinformation don't you?

Wavedash alone doesn't cause hand problems, its the general high apm of melee, of which there is way more then wavedashing.

It would be rather unlikely that just wavedashing a ton by itself would cause hand problems due to it requiring no wirst movement and being fairly leniet timing wise.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I'm sorry but you like spewing misinformation don't you?

Wavedash alone doesn't cause hand problems, its the general high apm of melee, of which there is way more then wavedashing.

It would be rather unlikely that just wavedashing a ton by itself would cause hand problems due to it requiring no wirst movement and being fairly leniet timing wise.

If high APM causes hand problems
and wavedashing is one of the many actions that happen
then wavedashing CAN cause hand problems, even if it isn't the source of them.

 

[Atem]

If high APM causes hand problems
and wavedashing is one of the many actions that happen
then wavedashing CAN cause hand problems, even if it isn't the source of them.

Just take the loss dude. Only a small percentage of melee players have hand problems. Also by your logic typing the enter key on a keyboard CAN give you hand problems. (Edit: sorry if that was rude, I am sorry)

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Just take the loss dude.

I am not counting this towards a loss. It's like moss I am talking to. I can't get a point across, I think you underestimate what is loss. Loss check this answer by putting every captial letter in each sentence in a 2x2 cross.

Only a small percentage of melee players have hand problems.

Much like the small percentage of Melee players who Sakurai would let down by not including it.

Also by your logic typing the enter key on a keyboard CAN give you hand problems.

RSI

 

[mimgrim]

If high APM causes hand problems
and wavedashing is one of the many actions that happen
then wavedashing CAN cause hand problems, even if it isn't the source of them.

So since just playing the game can potientially cause hand problems I guess Sakurai shouldn't make the game.

 

[GHNeko]

I am not counting this towards a loss. It's like moss I am talking to. I can't get a point across, I think you underestimate what is loss. Loss check this answer by putting every captial letter in each sentence in a 2x2 cross.


Much like the small percentage of Melee players who Sakurai would let down by not including it.


RSI

Hand injuries from melee only occur if you dont take care of your hand.

The damage one person can do to their hands from high APM play (which is several times more than just the APM from wavedashing alone) is severely mitigated by taking breaks and stretching and other hand care techniques.

You're very much exaggerating how bad a toll Melee takes on your hand lol.

That being said, you can introduce wavedashing while also making it less stressful for the hands. I mean we have customizable controls, more ergonomic controllers, and buffering which reduces the stress and increases leniency for inputting multiple inputs in rapid succession. This also makes WDing easier, but it goes without saying.

Your argument against wavedashing has been on the executional front when those aspects can be mitigated in many ways, where most people who argue for wavedashing dont talk about its execution but its merits to the depth of the game, which are emulated by dash canceling but are not completely replicated.


That being said, I dont care too strongly about wavedashing returning, but wavelanding I absolutely want back in it's complete and fully glory.

 

[DunnoBro]

Just take the loss dude. Only a small percentage of melee players have hand problems. Also by your logic typing the enter key on a keyboard CAN give you hand problems. (Edit: sorry if that was rude, I am sorry)

Err, what constitutes 'hand problems'? Because while yes, generally only a small percentage of professional players who play through the pain(because they need to) actually develop longstanding conditions, it is a fact fact that Melee irrefutably is harder on the hands and less enjoyable casually over long periods of time because of it. To the point it affects character selection.

All that said, Wavedashing really isn't what hurts hands though. The Actions are spread out over three different fingers. (1 on control stick, 1 on shoulder button, and 1 more for a jump( + c-stick if taking an option is used)

The harder inputs are generally ones which include specials, due to the distance between the X/Y and B button. Putting a lot of APM on the right hand alone for actions like Waveshining, Short Hop Laser, or just spaced specials in general. To the point many players adopt a 'claw' grip to compensate.

 

[Big-Cat]

You guys are nitpicking arguments. Point is that Wavedashing, along with other techniques, contributes to the high APM of Melee. A high APM can not only turn off players thinking of playing seriously but can cause hand issues in the long run for some.

 

[R3D3MON]

And I don't think anyone wanting the landing lag of wavedashing reduced understands that it would make the game even more anti-combo than brawl with those anti-combo options. Essentially giving every character a ness/lucas/mewtwo airdodge.

What?

The things that are actively looking to make Ultimate anti-combo has already been discovered:

the stupid balloon knockback and lower hitstun than s4 according to Coney and Dabuz.

Maybe argue for changing those instead of labeling a legitimate platform movement (pretty important for, you know, a 2D platform fighter...) as "anti-combo".

 

[DunnoBro]

What?

The things that are actively looking to make Ultimate anti-combo has already been discovered:

the stupid balloon knockback and lower hitstun than s4 according to Coney and Dabuz.

Maybe argue for changing those instead of labeling a legitimate platform movement (pretty important for, you know, a 2D platform fighter...) as "anti-combo".

Naw, lagless airdodges are an objectively stupid idea from brawl. Maybe hitstun/knockback should be tweaked, but that's an entirely separate issue. The defensive effects of lagless airdodges (which they'd have to be to enable lagless wavedashing) would be FAR greater than the effect of the movements it's allowed. Hitstun/knockback can be tweaked without effecting other huge aspects of the game negatively.

 

[R3D3MON]

Naw, lagless airdodges are an objectively stupid idea from brawl. Maybe hitstun/knockback should be tweaked, but that's an entirely separate issue. The defensive effects of lagless airdodges (which they'd have to be to enable lagless wavedashing) would be FAR greater than the effect of the movements it's allowed. Hitstun/knockback can be tweaked without effecting other huge aspects of the game negatively.

The other thing with this "waveland" in SSBU is that it stops you from sliding past platforms, which is just bad. Lag or not, Nintendo should at least fix that.

Also, I'm not sure if someone else said this in this thread, but wavedash IS impossible in SSBU (as of right now) because you cannot initiate an airdodge immediately after you jump. and this is regardless of the airdodge lag. What Zero and some others have labeled is basically a triangle jump, aka an incomplete/incorrect wavedash input that happens in Melee when you don't airdodge fast enough after your jump squat frames.

 

[DunnoBro]

The other thing with this "waveland" in SSBU is that it stops you from sliding past platforms, which is just bad. Lag or not, Nintendo should at least fix that.

I honestly have no idea how good or bad that could be. Depends on how disadvantaged they want someone on a platform to be. But I do like the potential mindgames of waveland to trump (or feigning one)

 

[Big-Cat]

You’re assuming wavelanding is even deliberate.

Has it occurred to anyone that is pro-wavedashing that it is fundamentally an unintuitive mechanic?

 

[R3D3MON]

You’re assuming wavelanding is even deliberate.

Has it occurred to anyone that is pro-wavedashing that it is fundamentally an unintuitive mechanic?

Uhh is it? Seems pretty intuitive to me...and regardless of whether it was intentional or not, that really shouldn't even be an argument.

Some of the best things in fighting games have arisen from unintentional changes and effects, such as the current combo system in street fighter (which was explicitely an exploit in the SF2 input reading system). I don't expect Nintendo to be as open-minded or embracive as Capcom, but just give players some kind of wavedash alternative that can fully or almost fully replicate its effects and utility. This can literally be anything, like the initial dash cancel with pivot in 64.

The run cancelling mechanics are a good start, but Nintendo should take it further.

EDIT: Also, wavedashing isn't completely lagless in Melee and PM as it incurs at least 10 frames of landing lag (more if you are not tight in execution).