The Future of Sonic the Hedgehog

[Red Arremer]

Link to original post: [drupal=1190]The Future of Sonic the Hedgehog[/drupal]



Now, this is something which has been making me think a lot.

After reading this IGN article: Where did Sonic go wrong?, I was thinking about what was true on it this article, and what's definitely wrong.

When I read through this article, I felt this undertone that Nintendo always pwned Sega since the beginning... Which was pretty disturbing, somehow.

Yes, several arguments of this article are true, such as Sonic being created to make a mascot which was up par with Mario, and stuff like that. Now, there are a lot of things which are wrong or half-true, and simply are put there to bash Sega and Sonic even further than it already is... almost to please the vocal haters of the newer Sonic games. There are several problems Sega is facing, and I hope that this text will help the people who are hating on Sonic just because they think the new games are **** or following the bandwagon to realize that what Sega does is perfectly correct.

First of all, I want to finally break the line in between comparing Sega to Nintendo, and Sonic to Mario. True fact is, as already said, that Sonic was created to be Sega's answer to Nintendo's plumber. But they went different ways. All that will be talked to in this blog, so yea.

About the article:
IGN implies that Sonic 3 was already getting boring and stretching the Sonic-formula. Seriously, what is this supposed to mean? First the people were bashing the newest games, then the 3D games, then all games not on the Genesis/Mega Drive and now they even go back to bash Sonic 3? I personally loved Sonic 3 (and Sonic & Knuckles for that matter), and thought it was a great addition to the first 2 games.
IGN also states that Nintendo was experimenting with Super Mario Bros. 2 and 3, and Sonic didn't. Now, let's see what this is wrong. First, SMB2 and 3 were for the NES, the 8-Bit era, not the 16-Bit era, which spawned Sonic. Which Mario (main) games were in the 16-Bit era, which are memorable? Super Mario World. And... uhm... Super Mario Allstars? A remake collection of Super Mario Bros. 1, 2, 3 and the Lost Levels, to which I'll get in a bit. Okay, so we have one awesome platforming game for Mario in the same era as the classic Sonic games. Cool, I'd say. I think that Sonic's quality beat Mario's in the SNES/Genesis era, because there were actually 4 good games while Mario had only 1 and a remake.
Now that we have this outta the way, let's take a closer look at the games IGN states to be the real experiments. See, a lot of people know that the Super Mario Bros. 2 we have is actually another game with Mario characters put on it, Doki Doki Panic. Nintendo thought that the original Super Mario Bros. 2 - visually the same game as the original, just with harder stages and a few little differences - was too hard for Western gamers, so they never released it - only in the All Stars collection as "The Lost Levels".
Since Mario was a huge seller and Nintendo thought Doki Doki Panic wasn't really appealing to the market (this SO reminds me of Panel de Pon), they re-did it as Mario game - our Super Mario Bros. 2, or in Japan, Super Mario Bros. USA. SMB2 can therefore not be counted as actual experiment for Nintendo branching outta the formula. Then, Super Mario Bros. 3 definitely was different to the original, but... so was, in my opinion, Sonic 3 & Knuckles: You could play co-op with a friend controlling Tails or as Knuckles. Not to mention the general multiplayer option, and the fact that Sonic was graphically far above Mario, even Super Mario World. Sonic had many 3D-like effects, and the graphic style was a bit darker as well, making Mario's colorful style seem a bit more childish.

Now that I've kinda shown IGN being d*cks, I think I can go on with the actual arguments as to why Sonic didn't go really wrong.

So, what really bugs me is that vocal hater "fanbase". They don't know what they want, for God's sake. There are some who want changes to the formula, and some who want Sonic to go back to the classic 2D sidescrolling platformer. There are people who want the speed, and some who want the adventure-ish style. See, IGN themselves states that Sonic Unleashed sold over 2 million copies. I doubt that out of those 2 million all people have NOT enjoyed Sonic Unleashed. I didn't play it so I don't know how it fares, but I really can't believe they sell over 2 million units and noone likes that game. That's a stupid conclusion.

Then... Sonic Team is actually fed up with making Sonic games, resulting in, of course, games of less quality. They are pressed by Sega to create more and more games starring the blue blur. When a Mario game is made, extremely much of Nintendo's resources get poured into it, involving many developers working on it and as many as needed to make the game a worthy continuation of the series. But I doubt this is the case with games like Mario Party or similar games, which don't need as much developing effort as Super Mario Galaxy.

Why am I saying this? Because Nintendo is milking Mario too, just that they have far bigger resources than Sega and are actually able to experiment a lot - hence we got so many spin-offs and changes of formula, not only for Mario, but also for Kirby, Metroid, Pokemon, and many other big series. Sega does not have these resources. For them, only one game failing horribly in sales can break them.
After the flop of the Mega Drive Add-Ons and the Saturn, and the PlayStation killing off the Dreamcast, Sega is in dire need of sales. They still haven't recovered from that blow, they never were an especially successful company to begin with, except for the 16-Bit era.

Look, what other games has Sega made lately which have sold a lot? That's correct, none. Hardly anyone knows the extremely good Sega games such as Space Channel 5, Jet Set Radio, the classic Golden Axe series, Ecco... The list can go on, as there are many games Sega obviously did correct.
But... did they sell? No. They didn't. Although those games were great and several of my favourite game series of all time spawned from Sega, they only had Sonic. Drawing the line to Nintendo again, practically every of their series is well known, many of them even in the Top 10 Best Selling franchises, with Mario and Pokemon even leading the Top 3. The Legend of Zelda, TouchGenerations!, Metroid, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Smash Bros... Those are so many HUGE (in terms of popularity and sales) series that it's almost unbelievable. Almost every Nintendo series which has been released outside of Japan is doing very well. I hardly see any games which really have horrible sales.

Sega can't be compared with Nintendo anymore. They were comparable in the 16-Bit days, but now? Now Sega is a software developer who has only one name to get them money, and that is Sonic. You can't blame Sega for wanting to make sales. If they didn't make money, they'd go into insolvency and were gone. If they would sell Sonic to Nintendo as some people suggest, they'd have no more chance to survive...

As for the "fanbase", what they don't realize is what they really want. At least those angry fans (or anti-fans) which are complaining for the sake of complaining. There are so many people who say the new Sonic games suck and how Sonic goes downhill, but noone actually knows a reason why exactly. I mean, the games still sale. That's the main reason why they are made. Of course, you could argue that they made several mistakes and in most games the controls aren't that good, but...

Look at it this way: Sega tries their best to include the speed even in 3D worlds. Of course, in 2D it's so much easier to generate that speed in a platformer, in 3D it's far harder. Of course, you could argue that they didn't need to introduce characters like Big or Silver, but I honestly see no problem with that. Sega does what many fans wanted: Expand the Sonic formula to other things, not mere speed. Now many fans want them to go back to the old speed stuff. Why, lookie here, we have Sonic and the Secret Rings! Why is never anyone mentioning this game? It is exactly what people cried for, and yet it is considered being just as "bad" as others, although it HAS the speed, and actually does it well.

Is it because of the storybook-plot? I don't care about the plot, seriously. It's a platformer. Also, Sonic always has been a platformer, he's a fast hedgehog, not a racing car. I don't see how speed only can make a platformer - if there was speed only, I'd rather have a racing game (like Sonic Riders, which, by the way, is one of my favourite Racer series). They tried a lot of things with Sonic, and are experimenting how to please all fans, but instead, everyone still rips them a new ******* because of how much they hate Sonic nowadays.

What I want to say is... The hating people don't know what they want. Sega does know what they want, though, and that is money. And Sonic brings them money. So they continue making Sonic games. Because they mean money. Understand WHY Sega does so. If you want Sega to make other games, buy them. They're not there to be stared in awe in the videogame store.

I hope I made sense... It's just many thoughts going through my head about this series I really enjoy. x_x

 

[Teran]

Money is all that matters to all game companies.

Besides, there is a big enough new generation of the Adventure fans for Sega not to need to make a classic style game. The thing is, what makes classic Sonics so amazing is nostalgia. I bought all the 3D ones on VC, and I loved all the memories it brought back when I went through the Green Hill Zone.

To be honest, if a new Sonic came out that was practically identical to the old ones, I'd probably say "Meh, nothing special." I think it would need to contain that "feeling", that Nintendo is so good at keeping when their games have made transitions.

I think you know what I mean by keeping the feeling in the transition.

e.g. Metroid > MP

2D Zelda > OoT

etc.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yeah, I agree with what you say, the problem is, though, that Sega doesn't have the same resources as Nintendo.

Look at Konami, they're kinda comparable to what Sega does. They made a transition for Castlevania from 2D to 3D (Lament of Innocence and the 2 N64 games), and those experiments kinda failed, so they stayed with the formula they had the most success with - the Castletroid style games based on Symphony of the Night, and only slowly come back to try new things out like they did with Order of Ecclesia and especially Judgment - which is counted as Spin-Off.

Though the Castlevania fanbase is not bashing Castlevania for getting bad or the formula being stale. Many even think that the 3D games were not that bad, and accept that they were there, too. The Sonic "fanbase" doesn't do this, they only bash that they games were so bad and so bad and blah. Still the games are bought. The Sonic bashers just don't know what they want. I guess the fact there's no general agreement on what Sonic should look like makes the games being so different with every release - the characters introduced in almost every game are one of those indicators because every character stands for some other aspect of gameplay.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

My only personal beef with Sonic is that he really lacks his own world and unique charm. He started out unique with Emerald Zone, Angel Island, etc. Then his games went to New York where he started using guns. WTF?

Truth be told, I never liked Sonic. For one thing, I hate how his eyes are connected above his nose.

 

[Teran]

I think the difficulty of the old Sonics is what I love the most.

I like the unforgiving nature of the retro games. Maybe if all games were made Nintendo hard again, everyone would be happy.

What makes a game good for me is the satisfaction of completeing its very tough challenges.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think the difficulty of the old Sonics is what I love the most.

I like the unforgiving nature of the retro games. Maybe if all games were made Nintendo hard again, everyone would be happy.

What makes a game good for me is the satisfaction of completeing its very tough challenges.

Play Order of Ecclesia. One of the hardest Castlevania games I played to date, only out-difficulted by Castlevania 3.

Also, I'd never say that the newer games are especially difficult - not only Sonic, but also Mario or Metroid. I had more trouble playing Super Mario World or Super Metroid than I have completing Mario Galaxy or Metroid Prime. Just as examples.

@Buzz:
Yea, well, I don't like the Zelda games too much and Link's design with that green sleeping cap he always wears. =P

But yes, I agree with what you said... the original world (Mobius in the comic, no idea if that was the same name Sega intended to give the games) was far more interesting. But meh.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Link is cool.

Sonic is not.

 

[Red Arremer]

Link is cool.

Sonic is not.

lolpinions ;P

I prefer Sonic over Link. My personal opinion. You like it vice versa. Yours. =P

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

My only personal beef with Sonic is that he really lacks his own world and unique charm. He started out unique with Emerald Zone, Angel Island, etc. Then his games went to New York where he started using guns. WTF?

Truth be told, I never liked Sonic. For one thing, I hate how his eyes are connected above his nose.

I agree 100% with what you said (yes including the part about his eyes )

That's one thing I like about Sonic Heroes. It actually tried to bring him back to a more fantasy-world as opposed to a realistic one.

 

[Jam Stunna]

In your paragraph comparing Sonic 1-3 to Super Mario World and SM All-Stars, you left out Super Mario World 2, which many people consider one of the greatest 2-D platformers ever.

My main complaint with the IGN article (and alot of so-called Sonic fans in general) is the constant emphasis on speed. Sonic 3 is one of my favorite games, and I don't remember going that fast. With the exception of some stage props like loops and springs, Sonic didn't even have the real estate to reash the "blazing speed" that people remember, despite the fact that it never existed in the first place.

A few weeks ago, a member of Sonic Team was reported as saying that the reason why Sonic games have been doing so badly lately is because it's impossible to program a stage that showcases Sonic's speed. Wrong. The reason why Sonic games have been doing badly is because they SUCK. Framerate issues, poor collision detection, crappy camera angles and baffling design choices have plagued Sonic since his transition to 3-D

Sonic is not a racing game, it's a platformer. All of my memories of Sonic are related to platforming, in fact I was just talking about those tricky cylinders in Carnival Night Zone in Sonic 3. We've been shown that amazing platforming is possible in the 3-D world (see: LittleBigPlanet). Maybe someone should show that game to Sonic Team.

But I do agree with IGN that the constant addition of new characters must stop.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

But I do agree with IGN that the constant addition of new characters must stop.

Eh, they can bring in new characters, they've been doing it since Sonic 2 with Tails. The problem I think is that they don't know when to stop bringing them back in every new game, so instead of a nice concise roster, we get 20 characters or so each game.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

lolpinions ;P

I prefer Sonic over Link. My personal opinion. You like it vice versa. Yours. =P

Let's fight. Right now.

I agree 100% with what you said (yes including the part about his eyes )

That's one thing I like about Sonic Heroes. It actually tried to bring him back to a more fantasy-world as opposed to a realistic one.

LOL! Yeah, but to be fair, I have problems with any game that takes place in a society resembling the real world. I don't know about anyone else, but I play games to escape reality. I like exploring fictitious lands and meeting unique characters. So, for Sonic to enter our world was bad mojo for me.

 

[Red Arremer]

In your paragraph comparing Sonic 1-3 to Super Mario World and SM All-Stars, you left out Super Mario World 2, which many people consider one of the greatest 2-D platformers ever.

I consider Yoshi's Island - which is by the way the official Japanese name - a Yoshi series game, not a Mario game (anymore).

Otherwise, I agree with your posting, but as I already mentioned, the tons of character additions are actually a good indicator of Sega trying to change the formula as Big, Silver and Blaze all are a different concept of gameplay as Sonic, Tails and Robotnik.

 

[Teran]

But I do agree with IGN that the constant addition of new characters must stop.

That is undoubtedly my biggest gripe with new Sonics. I just, can't, stand them.
Silver, Shadow the emo Sonic. I mean, if they want to add new characters, they should be somewhat inspired. A classic cast goes a long way.
Mario, Zelda, Metroid. Despite always tweaking the enemies and the forumla, the same cast is almost always intact. This keeps the old feeling of the game, and yet allows new and fresh ideas to develop.

 

[The Dinkoman]

When I read through this article, I felt this undertone that Nintendo always pwned Sega since the beginning... Which was pretty disturbing, somehow.

Nintendo had a great start. But I like the first Sonic games a lot. And I think that Nintendo and Sega are somewhat equal.

Yes, several arguments of this article are true, such as Sonic being created to make a mascot which was up par with Mario,

Yes and no. Yes they did want a mascot, but they also were trying to create a better game than mario's.

First of all, I want to finally break the line in between comparing Sega to Nintendo, and Sonic to Mario. True fact is, as already said, that Sonic was created to be Sega's answer to Nintendo's plumber. But they went different ways. All that will be talked to in this blog, so yea.

Yes.

About the article:
IGN implies that Sonic 3 was already getting boring and stretching the Sonic-formula. Seriously, what is this supposed to mean? First the people were bashing the newest games, then the 3D games, then all games not on the Genesis/Mega Drive and now they even go back to bash Sonic 3? I personally loved Sonic 3 (and Sonic & Knuckles for that matter), and thought it was a great addition to the first 2 games.

Sonic 3 I thought was better than Sonic 2 (IMO). Sega did try Sonic 3D blast, which was way worse than his other games before that. Sonic and Knuckles was great, I still play it.

IGN also states that Nintendo was experimenting with Super Mario Bros. 2 and 3, and Sonic didn't. Now, let's see what this is wrong. First, SMB2 and 3 were for the NES, the 8-Bit era, not the 16-Bit era, which spawned Sonic. Which Mario (main) games were in the 16-Bit era, which are memorable? Super Mario World. And... uhm... Super Mario Allstars? A remake collection of Super Mario Bros. 1, 2, 3 and the Lost Levels, to which I'll get in a bit.

Yes. I like the 16 bit better, but Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (one for Gameboy) I really enjoyed (it was 8 bit.)

Okay, so we have one awesome platforming game for Mario in the same era as the classic Sonic games. Cool, I'd say. I think that Sonic's quality beat Mario's in the SNES/Genesis era, because there were actually 4 good games while Mario had only 1 and a remake.

Win.

Now that we have this outta the way, let's take a closer look at the games IGN states to be the real experiments. See, a lot of people know that the Super Mario Bros. 2 we have is actually another game with Mario characters put on it, Doki Doki Panic. Nintendo thought that the original Super Mario Bros. 2 - visually the same game as the original, just with harder stages and a few little differences - was too hard for Western gamers, so they never released it - only in the All Stars collection as "The Lost Levels".
Since Mario was a huge seller and Nintendo thought Doki Doki Panic wasn't really appealing to the market (this SO reminds me of Panel de Pon), they re-did it as Mario game - our Super Mario Bros. 2, or in Japan, Super Mario Bros. USA. SMB2 can therefore not be counted as actual experiment for Nintendo branching outta the formula. Then, Super Mario Bros. 3 definitely was different to the original, but... so was, in my opinion, Sonic 3 & Knuckles: You could play co-op with a friend controlling Tails or as Knuckles. Not to mention the general multiplayer option, and the fact that Sonic was graphically far above Mario, even Super Mario World. Sonic had many 3D-like effects, and the graphic style was a bit darker as well, making Mario's colorful style seem a bit more childish.

*Plays Sonic 3 again, Plays Super Mario Bros. 3* *sighs* *Goes back to playing Sonic 3.*

Now that I've kinda shown IGN being d*cks, I think I can go on with the actual arguments as to why Sonic didn't go really wrong.

This is why I don't even pay attention to IGN I listen to my friends and they tell me their opinions.

So, what really bugs me is that vocal hater "fanbase". They don't know what they want, for God's sake. There are some who want changes to the formula, and some who want Sonic to go back to the classic 2D sidescrolling platformer. There are people who want the speed, and some who want the adventure-ish style. See, IGN themselves states that Sonic Unleashed sold over 2 million copies. I doubt that out of those 2 million all people have NOT enjoyed Sonic Unleashed. I didn't play it so I don't know how it fares, but I really can't believe they sell over 2 million units and noone likes that game. That's a stupid conclusion.

I played Sonic Unleashed, it was an easy game but I liked it.

Then... Sonic Team is actually fed up with making Sonic games, resulting in, of course, games of less quality. They are pressed by Sega to create more and more games starring the blue blur. When a Mario game is made, extremely much of Nintendo's resources get poured into it, involving many developers working on it and as many as needed to make the game a worthy continuation of the series. But I doubt this is the case with games like Mario Party or similar games, which don't need as much developing effort as Super Mario Galaxy.

Yes. And how can the Sonic Team be fed up with their own PRODUCT?

Some people just piss me off.

And as for the rest of your statement: *Plays all old Sonic games*

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes. And how can the Sonic Team be fed up with their own PRODUCT?

Some people just piss me off.

And as for the rest of your statement: *Plays all old Sonic games*

Thanks for doing me that favour of the color change. Anyway, Sonic Team themselves said they aren't really happy with producing one Sonic game after another:
http://www.pressthebuttons.com/2009/01/sonic-team-trap.html

 

[omegabros]

you bunch of dinosaurs get with the NEW times for once you make us veterans look bad.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

you bunch of dinosaurs get with the NEW times for once you make us veterans look bad.

And this added to the discussion because...?

 

[Mardyke]

A few weeks ago, a member of Sonic Team was reported as saying that the reason why Sonic games have been doing so badly lately is because it's impossible to program a stage that showcases Sonic's speed. Wrong. The reason why Sonic games have been doing badly is because they SUCK. Framerate issues, poor collision detection, crappy camera angles and baffling design choices have plagued Sonic since his transition to 3-D

THANK YOU.

As someone who only came in for the 3D era, I have to ask what the big deal about speed is.

I've my own opinion on Sonic Unleashed. The problem in my view isn't that Sonic isn't going fast enough, it's that the player needs greater control. If we must compare him to Mario, let's compare the movement. Mario is boundless. He can go almost anywhere in the level. There is not one problem in moving him in any given direction. Sonic in contrast is much too awkward to move in any direction other than forward; he can't go back, he can barely go up, and in Unleashed it's difficult to move him sideways. It is unfairly and illogically awkward to move him backwards whenever he needs to, giving excessive punishment to those who don't get everything perfect the first time.

Unleashed, despite being far from perfect, gave me hope for the franchise. The new director seems to have some idea of what to do (for its many critical design faults, Unleashed did have good game design, particularly in the multiple options during daytime levels) even if the community isn't at all helpful. Drifting, side-stepping and boosting are clever techniques to add to the formula. But what bothers me the most are points of what feel like bad game design where they just take control away from you and make the whole game a spectacle. Loop-de-loops and springs are done without any input from the player. Why don't they give you that freedom? Once is okay, but they do it too often in every level. It breaks the adrenaline rush of maintaining control.

I liked the presentation this time round excluding the horridly pointless Village mode.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

SEGA needs to make money. And making Sonic games makes them money. But Sonic games seem to be the biggest/almost only thing making them money. Which means they can't take the time to properly do things like Nintendo does with it's big characters because it needs money to that and it won't get any money unless it sells games. But their only games that sell are Sonic games. SEGA also doesn't have the money to blow like Nintendo does because it's smaller than Nintendo by a large margin.

Conclusion: Sonic suck because,
1 Sega has to pump out Sonic games quickly because it's what's keeping them going.

2 No one buys much anything else Sega produces and therefore Sega is only makeing money off of Sonic games and must quickly continue to make more so they can make money to keep themselves going.

3 This makes the game inferior simply because the time neccessary to make a quality product can not be taken due to money and time restraints.

So...buy more SEGA stuffz and stop whining so much. SA and SA2 were good games. So was SH. They had their problems but at the time such problems were acceptable. SA is from 1998 remember. Just after games like OoT and Mario 64. As far as how the game WORKS and LOOKS,how does it compare to those games?

People want speed but if the saw a game like Sonic 2 they would whine because of how slow it is.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is one of the greatest Sonic games ever. Period.

My strategy for Sega: Make money with old school 2-D Sonics for handhelds and take the time neccessarry to produce a great Sonic game for consoles. (3D 2D w/e)

Unleashed was good,but suffered from the same "rushed production" problems Sonic has had for consoles since Shadow's game. Especially in the Werehog department.

/end of rambling

 

[Tenki]

Sonic in contrast is much too awkward to move in any direction other than forward; he can't go back, he can barely go up, and in Unleashed it's difficult to move him sideways. It is unfairly and illogically awkward to move him backwards whenever he needs to, giving excessive punishment to those who don't get everything perfect the first time.

I'm not too sure about which version you played, but a while ago, I decided to look up the Wii and 360 versions, watching playthroughs of levels and stuff.

The 360/PS3 version of Unleashed actually had a better system of Sonic being able to backtrack and explore stages, especially since he had to look for things like those special coin things, whereas in the Wii/PS2 version, you earn them by blazing through the level's 3 checkpoints as fast as you can.

If you play the Wii version, as I have, you should be able to tell how blocky and awkward it is for Sonic to turn around, especially in the 2d stages. It was pretty much like a racing game, with sparse enemies here and there.

But if you play the 360 version in comparison, things like stopping and turning around are almost as seamless as it would have been in the Genesis version, and there's actual platforming to do there. Like, enemies, and hazards other than falling off the stage, lol.

I think the difficulty of the old Sonics games in general is what I love the most.

I like the unforgiving nature of the retro games. Maybe if all games were made Nintendo hard again, everyone would be happy.

What makes a game good for me is the satisfaction of completeing its very tough challenges.

Yep.

;d

Personally, what I liked about the Genesis Sonic games was having to explore the stages or look for checkpoints when I had enough rings so I could get the emeralds, and then go around and be amazingly overpowered as Super Sonic, then look for 50 more rings and turn into Super Sonic again. Specifically, Sonic 3 & Knuckles was probably the most fun.

And of course, they had debug mode. Oh my goodness, I spent so long in the mornings trying to get the up up down down up up up up in Sonic 3 alone, and try to not turn off the Genesis so I could play in debug mode later lol.

Sonic is not a racing game, it's a platformer. All of my memories of Sonic are related to platforming, in fact I was just talking about those tricky cylinders in Carnival Night Zone in Sonic 3.

Yeah. Though, the 'speed' in Sonic 2-3/Knuckles was pretty much just the camera moving around like crazy because of the loops, lol. And once in a while, those long ramps going downwards and making you move fast and launching you into the air.

Carnival Night Zone was a **** move on their part.

Seriously, where in the manual did they say that you could control those ****ing cylinders by standing on them and hitting up and down? I was trying to do some crazy desynch **** with Tails to get this one dead end open.

One day, I was playing a ROM of the game and I noticed I could stand on it and move it by pressing up and down, and the childhood me wanted to cry.

 

[Red Arremer]

Carnival Night Zone was a **** move on their part.

Seriously, where in the manual did they say that you could control those ****ing cylinders by standing on them and hitting up and down? I was trying to do some crazy desynch **** with Tails to get this one dead end open.

One day, I was playing a ROM of the game and I noticed I could stand on it and move it by pressing up and down, and the childhood me wanted to cry.

I have no idea why so many people can't figure out how to get through the barrels. I never had one. Sure, it took me like one or two minutes to figure it out. You can't move it by going left or right, you can't move it by jumping... So... I try down and then up. It works. Magic. o_o

 

[Kinzer]

"The level design started going downhill, with random ramps that'd launch Sonic into bottomless death pits or against spiked walls, ramps that looked like every other ramp you were supposed to take at full speed, ramps you wouldn't know were certain doom until after they'd killed you. These obnoxious design traits have carried over to even their modern 2D Sonic games, including the Sonic Rush games on DS."

No johns, the replay value was amazing, and if you couldn't expect the unexpected, that's your problem. It's also your fault if you knew a speedway was going to lead into a spik pit and you did not jump out of the way.

"Did SEGA overestimate the length of the welcome mat?"

Kind of... they should kill off some people, because they have as many characters as the bible has pages.

"Instead, Super Mario 64 came along and laid down the first real rule set for 3D gaming."

I never really was much of a puzzle-solver or a person to go do chores such as collecting stars, I much rather enjoyed the sheer Speed that came from the Sonic portion of his 3d games.

"But then you reach a city and slow to walking speed." Big the Cat does not run. The robot clanked along. Amy Rose and Knuckles weren't exactly speedsters, either. The game may have looked great save for a few camera issues, but it wasn't what some fans wanted.

It was still much more simple for me to go running around the city, since the walking world wasn't that big. Granted some characters Really need to get themselves killed off like Big, but I pretty much enjoyed the rest of Sonic Adventure. Even though the critics say that this wasn't what we wanted, it's still much better than some of the 3-D games (LOL Shadow the Hedgehog). Seriously it's just Sega making a bunch of miSteaks right afetr one-another, if they could get themselves back on track the company would be prospering. They tried to get this right with sonic Unleashed and they've probably had the best success in YEARS! Satisfying the die-hard fans they had in the 90s with the daytime levels and sure the Werehog wasn't the best addition to the game, but I guess they stepped it up (or not, I still loved the game).

"The extra dimension eventually added to Sonic games didn't inherently bother me, but all the other frills like bloated story arcs, bland exploration, and NPC interaction were real turnoffs," says Onyett. "If I wanted that kind of thing, I'd go play a role-playing game. I don't care what Sonic or his friends have to say, I just want to control Sonic as he runs really fast while collecting and killing."

So I suppose a fat plumber always having to rescue some silly woman who always gets herself kidnapped by some turtle thingy isn't being bloated either while having to explore a bigger world than that offered by Sonic Adventure? BTW I use Mario as an example since he seems to be a very potent competing rival for Sonic, I am not bashing any Mario fans or their love for his games, I know where they come from too. This was a very bad comparison to an RPG game, which aren't even really that bad when you look at the success of them. Sonic's main mission was still hunting down Eggman and putting his reign of terror to a stop, there's nothing wrong with a storyline which was pretty much unexistant in the Genesis games (even though they were pretty d*** good anyway). The next paragraph talks a little about Sonic Shuffle which I have little idea what they're talking about, but it was a pretty good game too if you had friends to play it with.

"Sonic's core adventures were starting to suffer and the brand was being diluted. There was a serious disconnect between the original idea of Sonic and what was happening to the character. It seemed like SEGA understood this to a degree when it created the Nintendo DS series of Sonic games, like Sonic Rush. But the console games? They kept on tripping over the same problems that were turning off the franchise's older fans. If vocal gamers did not like all of the extra characters in Sonic Adventure, why did SEGA blow out the cast of Sonic Heroes?"

Wrong. When you broke it down, it really was just defeating Eggman and taking out any of his creations, in the example of Sonic Adventure that was Chaos. Sonic Heroes was an okay game too, I just really hated doing the Team Chaotix side of the game, since it was the exact thing I was describbing that I did not enjoy, nor did I really know these characters were, and chances are I'll probably never see them again in any console game Sega release because it's true that the idea of adding more characters is just very bad. Still I had to admit the rest of the game kept pushing me forward to see the end and watch Sonic (and pals apparently) go Super to defeat the end boss. If you haven't beat it yet I don't want to ruin it for you.

"The rush of blasting through rollercoaster stage is still potent, but that concept is now seen too small in the era for $60 videogames."

Wrong yet again. Everybody, meaning the 90s fans and what little 8 year old kids that might be that age right now just opening themselves to Sonic like the simple idea of just speeding through a level. See where this is going?


This all just my response to the link, now as to respond to some people in the thread...:


Spadefox you're first paragraph is absolutely right, I really think that the only people who can't appreciate Sonic are just those who haven't tried to play any of his games and/or are just joining the bad bandwagon and bashing him or some of his good games without giving him/them a try. Of course tehre are always things liek personal preference, and Sonic just was more attuned for my personality, but that is inevitable.

You know I also don't see how anybody is really complaining about how the Mario games (at least to this era, and some could probably argue in te 80s/90s) have all these characters, like the Petty Piranha (sp?) and King Boo, so why is it that they get away with all these gangs for characters while Sonic shuold've just stayed with himself and Tails/Knuckles, eh? I guess It's perhaps that all the people who enjoy the Sonic games just rather keep it for one thing while the opposite can be said for the Mario fans who enjoy a little bit of diversity. Yes/No?

Sonic adventure had the perfect blend of platforming-world exploration, I don't know why they're trying so hard to please a portion of their fans when they could just make games like that and the newly-made Unleashed to at least try to keep a more bigger part of their fanbase happy (afetrall, not everybody can be happy with one thing right, so when thinking business why not just try to reap the most money you can by doing what would make more people happy/buy the games?) Althoguht I must admit if they went back to a 2-D thing, I wouldn't exactly be angry or happy about it, just "meh", but yet somehow it works for portable systems like the DS. i would probably be alright with it just because of the Nostalgia I would get from rememberign the times when I was probably like 6 years old and playing Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles.

Sega still has a lot of potential, I just think there is something wrong going with them that they don't want to get it right, but if they did they sure as Hell would be more recognised for it than Nintendo would for making their games... maybe, but I know I would.

If Nintendo boguht Sonic, that would be the ultimate death of him, and it's very true that I am not aware of any series made by Sonicteam or Sega other than maybe Phantasy Star Online. Nintendo would just make Sonic into the very thing his fans hate, and that's why if Sega could just focus on him they would do just d*** fine without anything else. Nintendo is fien for doing their thing, but I'd rather have somebody else do that which requires a different set of tools if you will to make something successful.

I actually like Sonic and the Secret Rings, I must admit, it was just really diificult for me to work with probably due to the messed up controls of the Wii. Still I must admit everything else about the game was pretty cool, and if I could sometiem in the future get to the end when I'm not so frustrated about completing some of the missions. This is the same story with Unleashed for me, but then I probably just need to start not being so lazy and use the Gamecube controller.

Seriously if people could just realise what Their problem is with themselves and with Sonic, so long as they're reasonable let them complain, but if they're just hating for the sake of it they need to go find something better to do, because Sega I know is really trying, and they're getting there, it's only a matter of time.

This was a very enjoyable read, thank you very much Spade.


Teran knows how it goes down as well, and if he's anything like me he too wouldn't really bother with Brawl if Sonic wasn't in this... let me say, "mediocre" game... made by nintendo LOLCakes. Speaking of Brawl and Nintendo that reminds me how they would kill off Sonic, look how his fanbase is working to get him far in Brawl and yet he still remains one of the more worse characters. I know this is a bad comparison but it's still funny how ironic this is.


BTW Spadefox yes you're thinking of Mobius, or at least that's what his homeplanet is referred to a in the Genesis games and in the comics. I'm not sure where exactly Sonic is in the later media, but if I had to take a guess it would probably be somewhere in New York.

Buzz, wather sarcastic or not, is alright for believing in his opinion, while I still have mine that SteakSonic > everything else. Sonic being in this world would totally rock though, lol my reality is not exactly a good one... but it's still okay, indeed.


Sorry about the troll in your blog, though I would rather not try to break his lack-of logic so I can stay on-topic.


SS8677 is right, Sonic is the only thing keeping the company alive. They're at a serious disadvantage to Nintendo because nobody complains about how they make their games, but then that could be because they haven't been getting it right, which might still be the fault of the company and the fans/"anti-fans." maybe if peopel weren't so strict and could just look at Sonic for what he is and instead enjoy what they did get right, they wouldn't be in deep-s*** right now. Regardless they have my full support for everything (for crying out loud, I have yet to return Shadow the Hedgehog and I bouhht it when it was a new release just so I could see the hype... but oh well, good for them!).

I lol at Tenki an his horrible childhood memories of Carnival Night Zone, I just probably a spasmatic child in that age and somehow I figured out in the instant that I had to go up/down. However his opinion on the Wii Unleashed is his own, I still thought that the daytime levels were the bomb. I cannot nitpick a thing they went wrong with it other than having to adjust here and there.

 

[Sonic Phantom]

haha, yeah, if you complain about the lack of speed in a Sonic game; try Sonic and the Secret Rings. That game gets so fast by the time you level up enough, you cannot tell what is going by you only from memory can one remember. You are going to need really great reflexes with that speed.

 

[finalark]

\ Why, lookie here, we have Sonic and the Secret Rings! Why is never anyone mentioning this game? It is exactly what people cried for, and yet it is considered being just as "bad" as others, although it HAS the speed, and actually does it well.

The thing that bugs me the most when it comes to the general gamer community and Sonic is that the very moment that they see a Sonic game they instantly start bashing it. Most of them don't even play the game and they bash it. I'm glad that you mentioned Secret Rings because that was a decent game. It had the speed that the fans wanted, went back to good old platforming and it was fun to play. If you look at the reviews it got good scores, and should really be played before being judged. And for the sake of throwing this in, I don't see why Sonic Unleashed is being condemned as a wretched spawn of evil. I played the game, and yeah there were a few things that I wish weren't in there but the day time levels weren't that bad. Over all the game could use some major improvement but I can't say that I hated it.

 

[Jimnymebob]

As you put, the fans don't know what direction they want Sonic games to go in, and now with the new breed of gamers who were brought up with the 2D "fast" games believe that Sonic games are all about speed, which they never were. The worst thing with 3D Sonic games are grind rails.

That's one thing I like about Sonic Heroes. It actually tried to bring him back to a more fantasy-world as opposed to a realistic one.

Sonic Heroes was really good, and unappreciated, but the game suffered a dramatic fall in quality from the rail canyon sections.

My main complaint with the IGN article (and alot of so-called Sonic fans in general) is the constant emphasis on speed. Sonic 3 is one of my favorite games, and I don't remember going that fast.

As I just said, Sonic was never about reaching incredible speeds, it was a platformer that allowed you to take loads of different routes to get to the end of each act.

 

[Tenki]

TL;DR:

They need more exploration, free movement, and most importantly, Debug Mode.

 

[Beren Zaiga]

I have read through most if not all the posts here (I love reading, sue me). I agree with alot of your points Spade. Especially since I also enjoyed Sonic and the Secret Rings, and I still own Unleashed (I have yet to beat the final boss). What Sonic I think needs, is a break. Look, they make him run around at least onces every year to stop some evil scheme of some villain, even if that villain isn't Ivo Robotnik (Called "Eggman" by alot of the fanbase, I prefer Ivo Robotnik).

Though Sonic and the Black Knight looks promising. I have seen the screens and models, the graphics -despite the Wii's limitations- look as though they can be on par with the Xbox 360, Unleashed almost accomplished that, even without the Hedgehog Engine on the Wii version of Unleashed, and Secret Rings' graphics with Sonic, despite the floppiness in his spines, were just as good. Sooner or later, I believe Sonic will make a near full comeback and I vehemently hope for such a day to come. The potential is there, they just need to take the time needed and pin a nail on its head.

Sonic Heroes wasn't so bad, but the Chaotix (They HAVE appeared before by the way, in "Knuckles Chaotix", Wiki it) Levels did make the gameplay squander a bit, but they also reintroduced previously largely unknown characters. Espio, Charmy, and Vector are three of may favorite Sonic Characters next to Rouge, Robotnik and Amy, whom all stalemate for second place (The first placers of course, being Metal Sonic, Sonic, and Shadow). I just enjoy the games in general, I don't think there has ever been a time I have ever been truly bored by a Sonic game, even Shadow the Hedgehog catches a small bit of praise from me, even if most do not consider the games events to be canonical. I also vastly enjoyed the Director's Cut version of Sonic Adventure for GC.

As I said before, the potential is still there, they just need to nail it and Sonic will have his comeback. In the mean time, I would suggest they try making another game besides focusing on Sonic, and let the blue blur have a breather, he needs it.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Kinzer, I read the whole thing and it's totally true.
<3 u no homo

I didn't really like Secret Rings too much. It was semi good. But the big fault in it is more the lack of control because of Nintendo's gimmickiy not fully functional wii mote than Sega. Wii Unleashed definatly is better with the GC controller imo.

The Chaotix appear in Knuckles Chaotix just as BZ said,they also used to be pretty important characters in The Archie's Sonic comic. I didn't mind them in SH as I already knew who they were.

Did anyone notice when Sega gave Sonic the lame 4kids cast that his games started to suck? lol

Sonic>melee>brawl

*runs for cover*

 

[Red Arremer]

(Called "Eggman" by alot of the fanbase, I prefer Ivo Robotnik).

Just to correct you on that bit... Robotnik was "Eggman" since the very first game in Japan. Sega of America renamed Eggman to Robotnik because they thought Eggman wasn't as threatening (kinda like Capcom of America did with the name swap Vega->M.Bison->Balrog in Street Fighter II), and with I think Sonic Adventures Sega decided to fuse both names, making Ivo Robotnik his actual name while Eggman would be his nickname.
Notice also how "Ivo" mirrored becomes "Ovi", which is Latin and means egg.

I liked Shadow and Sonic Heroes, by the way. I also like several of the new additions to the cast such as Shadow, Rouge, Omega, Silver or Blaze who bring new aspects/powers into the game, but I highly dislike Big the Cat, Marine and Cream. Those are pretty worthless, imo.
I think, though, I am one of the very few people who want Nack the Weasel/Fang the Sniper back... remember that guy? Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic the Fighters. Darn. He would be so bad*ss.

It's just a shame that Sega creates new characters for every new game although they'd be fine with re-using old ones which have appeared but never made it again. I'm also a bit annoyed by those "Villains of the Day", those big guys at the end of the games who have almost to nothing to do with Robotnik in the first place. =/

 

[Tornadith]

Link to original post: [drupal=1190]The Future of Sonic the Hedgehog[/drupal]
So, what really bugs me is that vocal hater "fanbase". They don't know what they want, for God's sake. There are some who want changes to the formula, and some who want Sonic to go back to the classic 2D sidescrolling platformer. There are people who want the speed, and some who want the adventure-ish style.

You, my friend, won the internet.

I think that's the main point of this entire discussion. Which way should sonic go?

It's one of the main problems that Sonic games have been having is: What direction is Sonic taking?

Ideas about this are very scrambled, and I think each Sonic game tries out something new, which is not the greatest strategy in order to please people. I think they are poking around and trying to find what gets a good reaction.

In my opinion, Sonic Adventure 1 + 2 are one of the best sonic games EVER made. I love the simplicity of the controls and movement, yet how you have to be good in order to use the controls wisely.

I bought Sonic Unleashed (for the Wii, since 360 and PS3 versions suck) and I really love it. I don't mind the Were-hog levels all that much, but they're fine. They actually have kinda grown on me since I bought the game.

But the Daytime levels...woo. Those the most fun levels I have played in a LOOONG time. Rarely do you find something in a game that is just fun. Most games have complex storylines and character devolpment and strategy in fighting and pressure and most people think that makes a good game.

Gamespot gave Metal Gear Solid 4 a 10/10.
In Gamespot's written reviews, they have a little sidebar that states the "good" aspects about the game and the "bad" aspects about the game.

Since it was "perfect" it didn't have any bad things, obviously but some of the "good" things it had were these:

"Great Sound Effects"
"Great Story"
"Just Right" (Difficulty)
"Sucks You In"
"Superior Animation"
"Technically Proficient Graphics"

Those were 6 out of the 10 they showed were these aspects.

Now...do any of those aspects just sound like pure fun?

Not really.

I don't think having better graphics or story lines make a game pure fun!
Now, I'm not saying MGS4 is a bad game. It's an amazing game! But all I'm doing is just giving a comparison. Sonic Unleashed is not like MGS4 at all.

In Gamespot's written review of Sonic Unleashed, the only "good" aspects that matched up in these games were "Just Right" and "Technically Proficient Graphics", and the "bad" thing they gave Sonic Unleashed was that it was "Too Shallow".

Now, I really don't care if Sonic Unleashed was shallow. It was pure fun when I played it. Racing through levels and dodging spikes being thrown and quick stepping between alley-ways as a robot chased you...it was really fun! It got my heart racing and I even smiled while I played it.

When's the last time you had an experience like that in a video game?

 

[MBreeto]

In my opinion, Sonic Adventure 1 + 2 are one of the best sonic games EVER made. I love the simplicity of the controls and movement, yet how you have to be good in order to use the controls wisely.

These games are the exact reason why sonic games turned out the way they did (excluding ds). They wanted to try something new, and while I will admit Sonic Adventure 1 was fun, it was the end of the sonic from genesis. If you were to ask me what one thing killed sonic, my answer would be Shadow. I don't have to explain myself because I don't think I should have to. Look at sonic today. He's a ****ing werewolf. What the hell? And Shadow has guns and drives motorcycle. Seriously? This is nothing like the classics and I don't think sonic can recover.

 

[Red Arremer]

I don't think having better graphics or story lines make a game pure fun!

[...]

Now, I really don't care if Sonic Unleashed was shallow. It was pure fun when I played it.

I was going to create a blog about exactly those two statements sometime, as well. About how people only judge games by looks and hardware, not by fun. Maybe I'll do it after getting some sleep.
But yes, see, you're one of those examples I meant: You are one of 2 million customers, and one of those who are pleased with Unleashed.
IGN implied that everyone hates the new Sonic games. I don't I enjoyed almost every of them, even Shadow the Hedgehog - and if it only was about Sega trying to appeal more mature audience with guns and cussing and bikes like GTA - it featured my favourite Sonic character AND him being bad*ss... not more I could wish for. lol.

If you were to ask me what one thing killed sonic, my answer would be Shadow.

Do you mean Shadow the game or Shadow the character?
Cause if you mean the character, I'd like to point out that you might see him as a personification of what Sonic has become, but I doubt that the way would've changed by much if Shadow wouldn't have been included to the cast.

 

[Kinzer]

I dunno, the Werewolf is pretty okay, and if I had to put it this way, it gives me nostalgia from when I was a wee lil' lad, watching Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog. See the relation? It was just random stuff, and it worked for both the anime and the game.

They messed up Shadow though, for "the Ultimate Lifeform" having to use transportation and weapons to assist him is no good, and he should've died off after SA2. At least Sonic deserves to stay alive because he was the one who started the freaking series afterall.

 

[MBreeto]

Do you mean Shadow the game or Shadow the character?
Cause if you mean the character, I'd like to point out that you might see him as a personification of what Sonic has become, but I doubt that the way would've changed by much if Shadow wouldn't have been included to the cast.

The character. And you're right, Shadow is the new Sonic and it's sad. To be honest, I don't think Sonic had a chance of having a successful future. If you want to see the typical fanboy of Sonic these days, go to Newgrounds and watch any of the "Sonic Shorts" movies. It's so sad to see what the game has become and it's not fair to the people who have stuck with Sonic since the beginning or were in touch enough with the series to recognize what made it what it was. But hey, what can you do?

 

[Red Arremer]

As said, I won't blame any character for being responsible for Sonic's "downfall". I personally see no downfall. He never was down. His games still sell. And come on, don't say you don't see squealing fans over everything that's popular with kids these - may it be Sonic, Pokemon, Naruto or anything else similarily to it.

I personally think Shadow is a great addition to the cast. I never saw him as new Sonic, never saw him as Sonic clone, never saw him comparable to Sonic in any way except for both are hedgehogs and both are fast.
I mean, Big, Cream, Marine... gtfo. But Shadow (and same with Rouge and Omega too) kinda gives the original a bit cheesy and careless atmosphere Sonic had a bit more of a darker and more mature one... Especially, of course, the game Shadow, but also the character, and his companions.
Sonic would've gone the way he is even if Shadow weren't created, even if he would have died off in SA2, even if he wouldn't have spawned that game.

I think you see Shadow as a "spawn of the devil", speaking a bit exaggeratingly, as he marks what you see as your loss of interest in the Sonic games. A lot of people do this, and those are almost always the haters. Many people actually think Shadow is cool or awesome, and think not too different from me. For me, I love Shadow to pieces, even though it would have been even cooler if he really stayed dead in SA2 and came back at least a few years later, not in right the next game. x_x

 

[MarKO X]

*sigh*

Well, as a Sonic fan, I know wut I want.

More Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. That game... was beautiful. If they wanna go 3D, follow that example.

But in general, i just want a good quality Sonic game. Daytime levels in Unleashed were pretty **** neat, but the Werehog sucked imo. Remove the Werehog, and half ur story is gone, but who cares? You woulda had a splendid Sonic game.

Portable Sonic gaming is really good though. Sonic Advance series was win, Sonic Rush series is win, Sonic Rivals series is win. You see wut they do thar? They keep it really simple, and while they don't make groundbreaking Sonic games, they make solid Sonic games that are enjoyable. I think that if they followed the formula used in their portable games (keep **** simple) and make like 50 - 60 levels of that, it'd be a great game.

TL;DR:

They need more exploration, free movement, and most importantly, Debug Mode.

This wins.

 

[linkvoid13]

Carnival Night Zone was a **** move on their part.

Seriously, where in the manual did they say that you could control those ****ing cylinders by standing on them and hitting up and down? I was trying to do some crazy desynch **** with Tails to get this one dead end open.

One day, I was playing a ROM of the game and I noticed I could stand on it and move it by pressing up and down, and the childhood me wanted to cry.[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. tight after that one part, the path behind you is closed off, and the only path to go on is down past that one cylinder. I actually got through it by tails desyncing. But it was deadly hard.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

My only personal beef with Sonic is that he really lacks his own world and unique charm. He started out unique with Emerald Zone, Angel Island, etc. Then his games went to New York where he started using guns. WTF?

Truth be told, I never liked Sonic. For one thing, I hate how his eyes are connected above his nose.

Which is why Sega is trying out their ideas with Sonic Unleashed and Sonic and the Black Knight. They havent reached -that point- yet.

Sonic 2006 was an absolute mess. I watched an LP of it, and everything that wasnt suppose to go wrong did. Physics problems, the controls to loving LOAD times. It was absolutely horrible.

And before anyone goes off an says; "This is what i'd do to make the franchise better" Let me say this;

There's a lot of money and time that goes into making a game. If you dont know how to program an AI, make 3D models, then you probably dont know what exactly the real problem with the franchise is.

So let me rephrase it; How do you go from a 2D platformer to a 3D virtual world? And how can you put Sonic into a 3D virtual world, and have it make sense. Nintendo found the answer for themselves. Sonic is all about Speed, not action adventure necessarily. Think about what he stands for vs what Mario stands for. There's a differance.

 

[MBreeto]

As said, I won't blame any character for being responsible for Sonic's "downfall". I personally see no downfall. He never was down. His games still sell. And come on, don't say you don't see squealing fans over everything that's popular with kids these - may it be Sonic, Pokemon, Naruto or anything else similarily to it.

lol, it's hard to say that you don't like shadow without sounding like an arrogant *******, but I'll try anyways XD. While Sonic was getting a little stale before Adventure 1, there really weren't a lot of characters to go around and introduce, so I think that's why Shadow made his appearance to mark the new age of Sonic. Anyways, I want to know why they couldn't have just used Knuckles and give him a better job than just finding treasure xD. I would have been much happier if he took the place of Shadow considering he has that kind of selfishness about him too. However, like I said, the game was getting stale, so without new characters, the game was doomed. So thats how we got Shadow (and also Big and Amy and the rest of the ******* ). Shadow was just them testing the waters for a new pitch and it worked. Vuala!