The Final Nail: Why Brawl Can't Be Blamed for Melee's Problems

[Jack Kieser]

You guys do realize that this is the same guy who attempts to start an 'items standard play' sector of tournaments, right? Trying to reason with him is fruitless.

Ok, first of all, The_Dark_Zero is obviously a troll and I want to request, as the TC, that everyone ignores him. If he continues baiting, report him. If you absolutely HAVE to fight with him, do it elsewhere, or I'll report you, as well. I'm not going to encourage feeding trolls in my threads.

Secondly, I want to respond to the quoted post before I go on to teh_spamerer's remarks (which I probably won't have time to do until at least 7 CST, unfortunately). I'll be talking to this person in PM's as well, but I want to take the time to formally berate him for attacking my character in such an underhanded and intellectually dishonest way. How dare you reduce months of working, testing, play time, etc., to me being closed-minded simply because that work had to do with items. Oh, how dreaded alternate playstyles can be. As far as I'm concerned, you have no idea of my stances, my views, or my convictions, and it is highly disrespectful for you to trumpet around my supposed 'closed-mindedness' without (obviously) having any prior knowledge of my posting history (protip: if you HAD known my posting history, you'd know that I actually hate playing with items on).

For as stubborn and misguided as some people have been in my last few threads, at least they have the respect to attack my points and not my character.

@swordgard: You obviously have no idea how ironic that statement is.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

I'm apologizing currently, as I said, I am sorry for doing this to your topic. I am not baiting, I am just apologizing.

 

[Vulcan55]

If these people really cared for Melee or for its continued competitive existence, they would play Melee. They would hold Melee tournaments. They would support their own game instead of calling on Brawl players to support it for them. Doing otherwise is childish and hypocritical.

This is just plain incorrect and insulting.
We DO care for Melee and it's competitive existance, we DO play Melee, and we DO hold tourneys.
Most of all, what we DON'T do is call on Brawlers to support Melee for us.
Where did you even get the idea that this happens?
Show me some sources for that, please.

How about some answers?

 

[Reaver197]

Thank you.

I have been saying this in nearly every Brawl/Melee debate thread, although most of the time it was ignored. I've always said that neither game is killing the other, in fact, I dare to quote myself: "Okay, maybe there's a decline in Melee tournaments. So... do something about it. And when I say "do something about it," I don't mean try to drive Brawl into the dust, because that will hurt all Smash... badly."

Really, the solution to this problem isn't trying to destroy Brawl.

No one is trying to "destroy Brawl", but rather, in a way, raise public awareness of the fact that, if you want to play as a serious competitor, that Melee is worthy of a try, if not the preeminent platform for serious competitive play.

No where in that agenda is "let's completely erase Brawl from ever existing in the world".

And, I have a...particularly critical view of Death Note (and most anime in general), but that's neither here nor there. Suffice to say, using anime references does not earn you smiley stickers in my book.

 

[KosukeKGA]

My sentiments exactly.

To those who have yet to play Melee and only Brawl competitively, at least try it with some friends.

 

[Melomaniacal]

You're an idiot for thinking that we are trying to destroy Brawl.
You are also an idiot for thinking Brawl had no affect on the Melee community's diminishment.

First off, there's no need for hostility (I consider you calling me an idiot to be hostile). That just leads to flaming, and more idiotic argument. Just relax.

Well, I have seen many posts/topics saying that they want to erase Brawl from the competitive scene. If you haven't seen these posts... lurk moar. But the constant flaming of Brawl players, and everlasting attempts of convincing them that Brawl is terrible and Melee is better... I think that's a sure sign that Brawl-haters want nothing more than Brawl to die out. I don't think you are ALL trying to destroy Brawl, but I do KNOW that a lot of you do. Maybe not you, but I've seen posts clearly saying that they want Brawl's competitive scene to end. I can try to find a quote if you REALLY want me to, but I really don't feel like looking for one

So, Brawl does have an effect on the Melee community, but what I'm saying is that it's not really the actual game's fault, it's how everyone handled it. Yes, if the game never was released, Melee would be in a better state, but who's fault is it that Melee's competitive scene is declining? Is it Brawlers?
Well, I think that's all explained perfectly in the OP. Better than I could put it.

But yeah, please try to avoid insulting people, alright? There's no point in being rude.

 

[KosukeKGA]

It's the whole community's fault.

 

[Melomaniacal]

No one is trying to "destroy Brawl", but rather, in a way, raise public awareness of the fact that, if you want to play as a serious competitor, that Melee is worthy of a try, if not the preeminent platform for serious competitive play.

No where in that agenda is "let's completely erase Brawl from ever existing in the world".

And, I have a...particularly critical view of Death Note (and most anime in general), but that's neither here nor there. Suffice to say, using anime references does not earn you smiley stickers in my book.

Okay, I was exaggerating a little when I said anti-Brawl posters want to "drive Brawl into the dust." But, as my other response says, I HAVE seen people post saying that they want Brawl's competitive scene to end.

 

[Skler]

I don't so much want Brawl's competitive scene to end as I want people to realize Melee is a far better game to be competitive in. Once the cash well dries up all the pros will go back to Melee, we just need to wait for a bunch of noobs to get tired of being camped to death. Then all the other players will say "screw this game, let's go play Melee and have some fun." The sad thing is I know a bunch of Melee players who switched to Brawl only because they place better in Brawl, which is easily the worst reason to make the switch (especially because they don't win any money anyways, they just place above a pile of new players). I think I know one person who switched because he actually liked Brawl more, and he's awesome.

This rant was about how Brawl will eventually collapse on itself and how bad Melee players with no drive to improve switch to Brawl.

This is all a moot point, however, beacuse Mass Madness 11 will be all Melee and amazing.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Okay, I was exaggerating a little when I said anti-Brawl posters want to "drive Brawl into the dust." But, as my other response says, I HAVE seen people post saying that they want Brawl's competitive scene to end.

Even if they don't want it to end entirely, they certainly want to relegate it to the corner of the room as the 'gimped Smash' that no one in their right mind would want to play competitively because Melee is so much better. As far as these people are concerned, the two games CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be played equally in the same way many different versions of SF are. Melee should be THE ONLY competitive standard, and Brawl should ONLY be played as a past time or a time-waster.

 

[Pink Reaper]

ZOMG ITS SKLER!!!!!!!!!!

He's like, the best thing ever.

 

[illboyzeus]

well melee is competitively much better.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I don't so much want Brawl's competitive scene to end as I want people to realize Melee is a far better game to be competitive in. Once the cash well dries up all the pros will go back to Melee, we just need to wait for a bunch of noobs to get tired of being camped to death. Then all the other players will say "screw this game, let's go play Melee and have some fun." The sad thing is I know a bunch of Melee players who switched to Brawl only because they place better in Brawl, which is easily the worst reason to make the switch (especially because they don't win any money anyways, they just place above a pile of new players). I think I know one person who switched because he actually liked Brawl more, and he's awesome.

This rant was about how Brawl will eventually collapse on itself and how bad Melee players with no drive to improve switch to Brawl.

This is all a moot point, however, beacuse Mass Madness 11 will be all Melee and amazing.

Firstly, everyone knows that Melee is better suited for competitive play. I've said this many, many times, and I'll say it again: That does not mean that Brawl isn't competitive. Just less.

So let me get this clear... you don't want Brawl's competitive scene to end... but you DO want all of the competitive Brawl players to switch to Melee.
...eh?

 

[Grunt]

So let me get this clear... you don't want Brawl's competitive scene to end... but you DO want all of the competitive Brawl players to switch to Melee.
...eh?

There are honest to god people, like Azen and Chillen, who have played competitive Melee and like Brawl better. there is no problem with them staying. it's the people who have never played melee we want. we want them to see the light that is competitive Melee and then make a decision.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Even if they don't want it to end entirely, they certainly want to relegate it to the corner of the room as the 'gimped Smash' that no one in their right mind would want to play competitively because Melee is so much better. As far as these people are concerned, the two games CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be played equally in the same way many different versions of SF are. Melee should be THE ONLY competitive standard, and Brawl should ONLY be played as a past time or a time-waster.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say, and I think that's wrong. When I see topics named "Convincing a tournament host to switch from brawl to melee," and hundreds of posts imploring people to switch to Melee as fast as they can... well, I don't like that. No one has to "switch" from anything, both games can be played, it's not a big deal. Neither game has to end for the other to work.

There are honest to god people, like Azen and Chillen, who have played competitive Melee and like Brawl better. there is no problem with them staying. it's the people who have never played melee we want. we want them to see the light that is competitive Melee and then make a decision.

And there's nothing wrong with that... but there is something wrong with people flaming Brawlers, telling them that they need to stop playing Brawl because it is inferior.

 

[swordgard]

Even if they don't want it to end entirely, they certainly want to relegate it to the corner of the room as the 'gimped Smash' that no one in their right mind would want to play competitively because Melee is so much better. As far as these people are concerned, the two games CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be played equally in the same way many different versions of SF are. Melee should be THE ONLY competitive standard, and Brawl should ONLY be played as a past time or a time-waster.

Actually i do know how ironic mine was, cause thats how ironic i wanted it to be. You are far from being close minded, but i guess irony doesnt sound like it as much on the internet lmao

 

[Jack Kieser]

Actually i do know how ironic mine was, cause thats how ironic i wanted it to be. You are far from being close minded, but i guess irony doesnt sound like it as much on the internet lmao

Yeah, I have that problem with sarcasm, too... <_<; I've learned to use [sarcasm] tags when I use dry humor for just that reason.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I've heard Azen likes Brawl better, but I've never actually seen him state it. *searches

 

[FalconPunch]

It's actually Azen mindgames. Watch him randomly go to a Melee tournament after the shift and **** everyone. I'm actually glad Brawl sucks and that I didn't buy a Wii for that boring *** game. If it actually improved on Melee then I'd be forced to buy it, but now I'm off to get a GC and Melee and controllers.

 

[DoH]

Secondly, I want to respond to the quoted post before I go on to teh_spamerer's remarks (which I probably won't have time to do until at least 7 CST, unfortunately). I'll be talking to this person in PM's as well, but I want to take the time to formally berate him for attacking my character in such an underhanded and intellectually dishonest way. How dare you reduce months of working, testing, play time, etc., to me being closed-minded simply because that work had to do with items. Oh, how dreaded alternate playstyles can be. As far as I'm concerned, you have no idea of my stances, my views, or my convictions, and it is highly disrespectful for you to trumpet around my supposed 'closed-mindedness' without (obviously) having any prior knowledge of my posting history (protip: if you HAD known my posting history, you'd know that I actually hate playing with items on).

For as stubborn and misguided as some people have been in my last few threads, at least they have the respect to attack my points and not my character.

You just further proved my point; you claim to hate items but at the same time try to introduce an alternative to the status quo that introduces them? Especially in the face of the fact that there's nothing inherently different about items in any iteration of smash, meaning that the same reason for banning them still exists (and is precedent since 64) in competitive play means that you're chasing windmills like Don Quixote. That kind of behavior is incredibly illogical, hence the attack on your sanity.

I'm actually almost ashamed that you're from Dallas. I know they say Texas is backwards, but stop proving them correct.

And my critique is neither underhanded nor intellectually dishonest; I'm not lying or using a nefarious tactic, rather using your own posts against you. Chill out.

 

[Reaver197]

Even if they don't want it to end entirely, they certainly want to relegate it to the corner of the room as the 'gimped Smash' that no one in their right mind would want to play competitively because Melee is so much better. As far as these people are concerned, the two games CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be played equally in the same way many different versions of SF are. Melee should be THE ONLY competitive standard, and Brawl should ONLY be played as a past time or a time-waster.

I'll admit that definitively proving Melee as the more competitive game may, and most likely will, inspire such feelings and views. I can't deny it and I'll admit that I do view Brawl as the "lesser" of the two (as is probably evident from my posts).

However, I cannot say, and will never say, that people should not play Brawl. I don't know quite what you mean when you say that the "two games CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be played equally", but I assume you mean in terms of the number of people that will be playing it and participating in a tournament for it, and that Melee supporters will not want attendance to be equal to or greater than their own tournaments (I don't know of any other way in which to interpret this, but I hope that is what you meant).

Now, I'm not in a position to speak for anyone other than myself, but I am certainly not hoping to forcibly make Brawl have smaller attendances, and I'm not at all expecting it to either. I'm fairly sure that Brawl will draw a larger crowd (in general) due to it's higher level of accessibility and appeal. I also hope that the two smash games will come to emulate what has happened with SF 2 and 3. I'm fairly sure that SF3 players probably consider their game to be the better competitive one, but that certainly hasn't stopped SF2 from being played at a successful level. So, no, I don't want nor expect Melee to be the only competitively played Smash game, and that Brawl is only a "time waster".

I mean, Melee takes a considerable amount of time and practice to be able to at the very least achieve the necessary technical skills to play at a competitive level. I don't expect that everyone is wanting to or able to spend the copious amount of time it can take to just be able to technically play the game. Or, maybe, there's a character in Brawl you REALLY like playing as that's not in Melee. Or, despite understanding and trying out both games, you still prefer Brawl for whatever other reasons. That I can respect and understand. I can't say the same if someone never tries nor understands how one game or the other really, truly works.

But, anyway, I think some people are taking the ramifications of choosing which game as the more competitive one too far. Proving that Melee is the more competitive game will not result, at least I earnestly hope not, in the total exclusion of Brawl from the competitive scene. If anything, it's only to be sure that Melee doesn't get lost under the current swarm of attention that Brawl is receiving.

Edit: Boy, you did that whole ISP project without ever really wanting to or intending to play it yourself? That's some pretty good dedication there.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You just further proved my point; you claim to hate items but at the same time try to introduce an alternative to the status quo that introduces them? Especially in the face of the fact that there's nothing inherently different about items in any iteration of smash, meaning that the same reason for banning them still exists (and is precedent since 64) in competitive play means that you're chasing windmills like Don Quixote. That kind of behavior is incredibly illogical, hence the attack on your sanity.

I'm actually almost ashamed that you're from Dallas. I know they say Texas is backwards, but stop proving them correct.

And my critique is neither underhanded nor intellectually dishonest; I'm not lying or using a nefarious tactic, rather using your own posts against you. Chill out.

You have no idea why I made the 'ISP' project, do you? It's for the same reason that I made this thread. People who played competitive Melee (AND people who didn't) who complained incessantly about there not being item tournaments did nothing themselves to try to create them. Yuna, MookieRah, and I got into a VERY heated debate over whether the mere existence of item tournaments was detrimental (my argument was that variety is usually a good thing, and that it couldn't hurt to have alternate ways to play the game), and by the end of it, they pushed me to prove my thesis. So I did. I went out and, having NO DESIRE TO PLAY IT MYSELF, put months of hard work into a project to create an accepted item standard for Brawl. Since then, there have been ZERO item debate threads, whereas before the project the item debate (the same one that made the word 'tourneyf*g' a household name) spawned just as many threads as the MvB debate does now. I don't have to want to play with items to know that having a varied tournament community with many different styles of play CAN'T POSSIBLY HURT.

That was my motivation then, and this is my motivation now. Stop trying to slander me, because it isn't working and you're only making yourself look stupid by being TRAGICALLY uninformed. Your 'using [of] my own posts against me' hasn't disproved or refuted a single one of my OP's points; it's only tried to undermine my arguments by making ME seem illogical. That is logical fallacy at its finest, and I pray you never get admitted to the debate hall.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'm like Azen in my views, I just plain like Brawl more, nothing wrong with that. At the same time, I love Melee, and I don't want either of them to die.

Especially since Ganon was like, not considered one of the worst ****ing charaacters in Melee, and didn't feel like a tank when being controlled.

 

[Bomber7]

Guys, I think the conclusion has already been settled. I could be wrong but so far this thread for the past few pages has been beating a dead horse, just like Yuna's thread that should have been closed ages ago.

 

[MarKO X]

Just a quick question... i've been to 2 melee tourneys pre-Brawl, so it's not like I haven't seen what Melee has to offer first hand. I just happen to like Brawl more, and I figured out why... the "broken" defensive options fit me perfectly. (if you ever see me play mid-level (not hi, but not low, strictly somewhere in between) alpha3 or CvS2, you see that my guard bar is always lower than average!) Am I in the wrong here?

Cool, i used parenthesis inside parenthesis. How often do you see that? cherish this post.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

Man every time I see one of these threads I think maybe this time it won't be so bad and then...blam!
Someone pulls out there flamethrower or puts on there your opinion is wrong hat and goes to town. Good job community for being asinine, I don't blame you all especially they ones who aren't to blame. Sadly, some of you act like you've achieved the mental growth of a two-year old completely obsessed with themselves. Good job you win the internets now with cookies...whoops I ate them, you fail.

@Jack
Every time I read your posts I go thank you somebody is trying. I just want you to keep up what your doing half the time when I want to defend your posts you've already gone and done it before I could even hope too. I applaud your determination and persistence hopefully this will be the last debate on the subject.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Thanks, man. It's always good to hear when someone is getting something good out of a post/thread I make. ^_^

 

[DRaGZ]

Meh.

I'd rather just play Brawl than argue about why I'm playing it instead of something else.

Ya'll should do the same (either Brawl or Melee or CvS or MvC or Shodown or 3S or Power Stone or whatever).

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'd rather just play Brawl than argue about why I'm playing it instead of something else.

^This

10whogivesa****

 

[kr3wman]

Meh.

I'd rather just play Brawl than argue about why I'm playing it instead of something else.

Ya'll should do the same (either Brawl or Melee or CvS or MvC or Shodown or 3S or Power Stone or whatever).

You forgot GGXX T_T

 

[swordgard]

Meh.

I'd rather just play Brawl than argue about why I'm playing it instead of something else.

Ya'll should do the same (either Brawl or Melee or CvS or MvC or Shodown or 3S or Power Stone or whatever).

Powerstone, ah *drools*

Anyways, i for one think brawl hurt the competitive community, but it shouldnt be excluded from it. Like i said to one of my friend, i wish2/6 of tourneys were brawl, 1/6 of em n64, 3/6 melee.

That in my opinion would be perfect ratio

 

[Pink Reaper]

I Blame Brawl for all of Smash 64's problems.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

I Blame Brawl for all of Smash 64's problems.

Thank you for I have not lol'd in far too long a time. I bequeath on you cookies, enjoy.

 

[Stryk9]

I think brawl merely gives new players a shiny nice-graphiced chance to get a peice of smash fame, without having to learn any of the extremely difficult AT'S from melee. Its like a much more forgiving rehash with better everything, except gameplay. I personally can't enjoy myself playing Brawl with a much more intense, fun, and challenging melee sitting right there on the floor. That is just my opinion.

 

[Yuna]

You know why the Melee scene is dying? Because so many of you are begrudgingly playing Brawl. You don't see this? What if EVERY one of these players, the ones you cite as playing Brawl because Melee is 'dying', switched back to Melee at once? Once you see the answer to that question, you'll know why what I'm saying is the truth.

Try reading people's posts in their entirety once in a while.

Most of us who are begrudgingly playing Brawl are still playing Melee. The problem is that so many made the switch. Whenever a Melee tournament is held, people still go to them. But attendance is low because most people have made the switch.

It's not because of those who are now bedgrudgingly playing Brawl. It's because of those who made a clean switch because they want to play only Brawl. And again, SCIII, scene died.

Why did these players switch to Brawl begrudgingly to begin with? Money? Glory? Boredom? It doesn't even matter.

Because the Melee scene is dying? With no Melee-scene left to participate in, many switched to Brawl. Because they still want to play Smash. And why does it matter, just as you said?

What matters is that these players abandoned the Melee scene for Brawl, whatever their reasoning is, and they were not FORCED to do so.

Read my last post, read this post. No, we were forced to do so.

The majority of tourneygoers are either "n00bs", "mediocres" or "intermediates". The majority of these do not care about Smash on a such a deep level they'd analyze Brawl to such a degree as to come up with all of its shortcomings. Most of these immediately made the switch because Brawl is newer and shinier and have never looked back since.

Because of this, the Melee scene tanked. In Europe, it's still kinda alive. But in the U.S. and (I think) Japan, it's slowly dying. Because the majority of tourneygoers jumped ship. Those who were left were left with two choices:
* Leave Smash altogether
* Make the switch

Some left the scene altogether. Some are now begrudgingly playing Brawl (but still play Melee whenever the opportunity arises).

If you still can't wrap your head around this, then I give up.

Brawl, nor Brawlers, would not have the influence it does now if not for the MASSIVE jump start the Melee community gave it by switching from Melee to Brawl. There is a very simple way to fix all of Melee's problems: by playing Melee.

Funny how you keep making us BS things about what Melee players do or have done when you were barely ever a part of the Melee scene. We are playing Melee.

Uneducated and ignorant opinion.

It'd please me immensely if you stopped making up and assuming tons of stuff about what the Melee scened is doing or has done in the past when you've admitted to never really playing Melee Competitively on a deeper level to begin with.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Just a quick question... i've been to 2 melee tourneys pre-Brawl, so it's not like I haven't seen what Melee has to offer first hand. I just happen to like Brawl more, and I figured out why... the "broken" defensive options fit me perfectly. (if you ever see me play mid-level (not hi, but not low, strictly somewhere in between) alpha3 or CvS2, you see that my guard bar is always lower than average!) Am I in the wrong here?

Cool, i used parenthesis inside parenthesis. How often do you see that? cherish this post.

I agree with you, brawl definately caters to a certain type of player, but not all the players... thats my problem with it.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Even if they don't want it to end entirely, they certainly want to relegate it to the corner of the room as the 'gimped Smash' that no one in their right mind would want to play competitively because Melee is so much better. As far as these people are concerned, the two games CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be played equally in the same way many different versions of SF are. Melee should be THE ONLY competitive standard, and Brawl should ONLY be played as a past time or a time-waster.

Is there something wrong with this view? I Don't think there is. It is based off of years of experience... and building up the competitive scene only for sakurai to give us this....brawl... form of smash.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Anyways, i for one think brawl hurt the competitive community, but it shouldnt be excluded from it. Like i said to one of my friend, i wish2/6 of tourneys were brawl, 1/6 of em n64, 3/6 melee.

That in my opinion would be perfect ratio

Why not just give each game 1/3 "screen time"? I mean, there are 12 months in a year, so we could give each game 4 big tournies a year, and we could still have as many little tournies as we want in between.

Everybody's favorite game gets attention, everybody's happy.

 

[illboyzeus]

melee players are partly to blame, I have no problem with them going to brawl tournies. But if you go to one in place of melee, and then complain about the scene, you're an idiot. Also if someone holds an ambitous melee tournament, players will surely come. The midwest is a testament to this.

and melee is better than brawl for competition, this is backed by an insane amount of reasons. What reasons does brawl have over melee. That's why it sickens me when melee players completely turn their back on the game in favor of brawl.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

melee players are partly to blame, I have no problem with them going to brawl tournies. But if you go to one in place of melee, and then complain about the scene, you're an idiot. Also if someone holds an ambitous melee tournament, players will surely come. The midwest is a testament to this.

Glad to see that there's still hope for Melee. Even though I don't play competitivley(sp?), I wouldn't want Melee to go away in lieu of Brawl.