Meta The Fighter Atelier: A Place for the Customs Meta

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Ban customs WITH windboxes. Of course moves that already have windboxes wouldn't need to be banned; that would be ridiculous. But as custom specials with windboxes are optional and can be finnicky, banning those shouldn't be a problem nor a hindrance (Except for Dr. Mario using Soaring Tornado)
There's nothing criminal about windboxes themselves. Even if you thought Kong Cyclone was a bannable move (something most custom move enthusiasts would disagree with), you already proposed a solution - ban moves that are deemed by players to be problematic. By going with the guilt by association approach, Greninja loses both up B variants, Mario loses High Pressure FLUDD, Wario's Inhaling Chomp, Bowser's Turbulent bomb, and yes Doc and Luigi would have to lose Rising Cyclone/Soaring Tornado even though the question of whether any of those is bannable doesn't get raised.

Fast fire bird, explosive lasers, and void reflector are really good tools for falco that opens up a lot of stuff for him, he also has the option of using an invincible phantasm in edgeguard heavy mu's. I wouldn't call him a loser in the customs meta
Exactly, some have whispered the opinion that he gains the most from customs, though I'm personally in the Mii Brawler boat. Recovery, landing mixups, a chargeable special, and most importantly a means to close stocks with his good combo game. Pretty much all of his design flaws answered with customs.

Besides DLC characters, the only one that really gains nothing is Metaknight. Not a single viable custom except for High speed drill, but it's a dubious side grade to a move that never gets used in serious play.
 

ぱみゅ

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Ban customs WITH windboxes. Of course moves that already have windboxes wouldn't need to be banned; that would be ridiculous. But as custom specials with windboxes are optional and can be finnicky, banning those shouldn't be a problem nor a hindrance (Except for Dr. Mario using Soaring Tornado)
Maybe my point was missed in the middle of the sass, but Widnboxes aren't inherently bad, they do not deserve a staple ban.

:196:
 

Zario777

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Because of the jank that is caused with Kong Cyclone, I figured that people would come to the conclusion that windboxes are the problem. I would be fine with them banning moves one at a time. I would also be fine with just one custom special allowed at a time so that TOs would not have to waste time importing all of the "preferred" or "agreed upon" special combinations.
 

SJMistery

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There's nothing criminal about windboxes themselves. Even if you thought Kong Cyclone was a bannable move (something most custom move enthusiasts would disagree with), you already proposed a solution - ban moves that are deemed by players to be problematic. By going with the guilt by association approach, Greninja loses both up B variants,
I doubt Greninja would give two s*** about losing them. They are pretty useless compared to the stantard Up-B, and really, only Shifting Shuriken and Explosion have some value (and even those two have serious drawbacks that only make them usefull on certain matches...), so he is just half a step above from the DLC guys on disadvantage terms.

One question. Dark Fists is said to be amazing, but it gives less distance, and making Ganondorf's already terrible recovery shorter ranged does not sound very interesting. What is the main advantage of it then?
 
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Garo

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One question. Dark Fists is said to be amazing, but it gives less distance, and making Ganondorf's already terrible recovery shorter ranged does not sound very interesting. What is the main advantage of it then?
It has super armour on startup and it's a kill move. Not sure if this is true, but it also feels like it actually has a better horizontal recovery distance. Regardless, the shorter recovery distance doesn't matter much if you pair it with Wizard's Drop Kick, which I think is generally considered to be Ganondorf's best Down Special.
 

Zario777

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I think that DLC characters having an unfair balance of options would be something we should test to see if it affects the metagame much. Because if Mewtwo and Cloud and Bayo are still regular faces in top 16/top 8, then I don't think it would be much of a detriment to have their options "skewered" for the sake of lower tiers being better. Also I retract my statement on windboxes. I do think that Kong Cyclone's windboxes can jank people who attempt to edgeguard him, but there could be counterplay.
 

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I do not think I read your first point correctly, would you mind me asking you if you consider it is a good or a bad thing that the DLCs, despite not having access to alternate Specials, might still be present at the top of the Customs Meta?


Hint: I do not mind it, it means they are powerful enough to handle a more diverse cast.
:196:
 

SJMistery

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And, many of their specials are so good it's hard to come up with a worthy replacement. Bayo's Down B and Corrin's Side B in particular are irreplaceable.
 

Zario777

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I do not think I read your first point correctly, would you mind me asking you if you consider it is a good or a bad thing that the DLCs, despite not having access to alternate Specials, might still be present at the top of the Customs Meta?


Hint: I do not mind it, it means they are powerful enough to handle a more diverse cast.
:196:
I do NOT mind that the DLCs do not have access to custom specials. I can't see how a Mewtwo for example would do better or worse against a Mega Man who can reflect for example because Mewtwo has a reflector as well. In a reflecting match, Mewtwo would win (for one random scenario in which a person counterplays a Mewtwo by changing his specials). I feel as if neither Ryu, Mewtwo, Corrin, Bayo, nor Cloud would see any major disadvantages due to the inability to change their specials. This is not to say that all of their match ups would stay the same, just that against top tiers that they win against, they wouldn't see much change.

Especially if you consider the x111, 1x11, 11x1, 111x option I mentioned, characters (Like RosaLuma using Luma Warp AND Star Shot) would not see DRASTIC change to their playstyles, just enough to help them overcome some disadvantages that they currently suffer from.
 

SJMistery

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Especially considering that they would most likely have received a crappy super-slow version of their specials and a faster but too restrictive version, like on most other caracthers.
 

Blitz Rawket

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Sorry to chime in such a heated discussion with little posting credential, but, has there been any talks of what each character's optimal moveset is or is likely to be? I think it'd play a big part of digging deeper into what customs add to the game.
 

Jaguar360

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Sorry to chime in such a heated discussion with little posting credential, but, has there been any talks of what each character's optimal moveset is or is likely to be? I think it'd play a big part of digging deeper into what customs add to the game.
With 58 characters in the game and a lot of character's sets being preference-based that's pretty hard to do unfortunately. The custom moveset project linked in the OP has the 10(?) generally agreed best sets for each character though. It's been a while since I've experimented with customs unfortunately, but I'll give my brief thoughts for characters I play.

Greninja :4greninja: (1111/2111/3111) - Greninja's shuriken startup lag had been buffed since doing the original custom moveset project and heavy shuriken usage and camping has developed to become an important part of some Greninja matchups, so default is likely still the optimal set. However, the kill confirms that the other 2 shurikens provide are incredibly useful in matchups where either traditional Shuriken usage isn't as crucial or vs characters that are traditionally difficult to kill. Stagnant Shuriken's ledge pressure can also help for characters whose ledge options don't deal with that well. Down B 2 (the explosion) can be argued over Substitute, but both are rather niche moves. Substitute can help in certain matchups for edgeguarding or alleviating projectile pressure. Both Side Bs and Up Bs are outclassed by defaults.

Charizard :4charizard: (1311/1331/1313/1333) - Dragon Rush is Charizard's best custom, granting him a great burst option, recovery, and edgeguarding tool. The other side Bs have their merits with their super armor and raw power respectively, but Dragon Rush is probably the option that grants Charizard the most viability. Flamethrower has become a near necessity in some Zard MUs like Cloud and Diddy for its edgeguarding and ledge pressure and ability to destroy certain projectiles and items, so I don't think the other neutral Bs have enough to offer over it for the most part. Fly High allowing Charizard to go deeper for edgeguards and survive longer is pretty big, though Fly's super armor helps a ton both offensively and defensively. I honestly forget the merits of Rock Hurl over Rock Smash, but I remember it being pretty good, so I added sets with it for now.

Zelda :4zelda: (131x/121x) - The Din's Fire customs make the biggest difference with Zelda probably. Din's Blaze's ability to set up traps at the ledge and especially offstage is so good, so I think it's the best. Din 2's relatively low startup on the other hand gives it some merit. All the Phantoms are about equally good imo and have their own merits, so the last slot is left as random.

Sheik:4sheik:(2211/1211) - While Paralyzing Needles and the Bouncing Fish customs are quite good (Pisces is a favorite of mine), the other two needles, Grenade 2, and regular Bouncing Fish provide the most optimal options. The speed of Needle Storm and Piercing Needles are needles, with the former having the advantage of damage and the latter shield pressure. Bouncing Fish is incredibly versatile, granting and excellent edgeguarding tool, confirms into it for killing from a variety of moves, and excellent recovery. Grenade 2 is useful simply for its confirm into U-smash and other kill moves at higher percents, I believe it outclasses the others solely for this reason.
 
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L9999

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This thread has been dead as hell but I just want to comment how far :4duckhunt:developed with the regular can. Looking back ZigZag Shot is total garbage, I can't believe we thought it was essential.
 
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Thinkaman

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This thread has been dead as hell but I just want to comment how far :4duckhunt:developed with the regular can. Looking back ZigZag Shot is total garbage, I can't believe we thought it was essential.
Uh, Zig-Zag Shot is crazy good, and can do almost anything normal Can can do better. It's especially brutal on tall, lightweight characters like Mewtwo and Bayo, whom you can get all the hits on easily while killing vertically at relatively low %s.

It's a contender for best move in the game tbqh, and would have a non-zero number of people calling for its ban if it were in mainstream use.
 

L9999

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So, for a gimmicky ladder that is hard to set up and can be DId out of you give up detonation on command, frame 1 kamikaze escapes, free ledge pressure, and explosion in midair before the final shot?
 
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