Meta The Fighter Atelier: A Place for the Customs Meta

[Orsone]

Amazing Ampharos I'm asking you since you have a lot of experience into the custom meta. Does anyone ever discussed the possibility of having just one custom set for every character?
Not for giving "legit buffs" or quality of life buffs only to some chars but for tuning down others too, just as someone else proposed. Now that we have a Smash 4 Back Room, I find it much more realistic to be done.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure that that would completely beat the purpose of Customization: being able to play a character with traits you prefer.

 

[Yangguizi]

I would love to see costumes used more widely. I think that they are a great asset and its a shame that the smash community at large has basically forsaken them. Or at least they have for the moment.

I have been putting some thought in to how to get customs to be more widely accepted.
Some characters at the bottom of the tier list have custom variants that are strictly better than the default version.
My proposal would be to allow those characters alternative load-outs using their better custom moves. This would allow characters like Ganondorf to preform better, having access to their best possible move-set. My recommendation would be to simply start by making a few obviously better load-outs legal, and allowing players to use those along side with the worse default version.

The plan would essentially be to buff the low tiers with customs, but in my opinion its best to do it in a controlled way. People that are playing a game competitively don't like to have unknown elements suddenly thrust into the game all at once.

If customs are presented as a way to buff underwhelming characters, people are less likely to shoot it down, or feel overwhelmed by an immense number of options.
Over time more variations of different characters could be made legal and we could really see the tiers come closer together.

My ultimate plan would be to eventually make it so that a single version of each character is allowed at tournaments, and top tier characters like sheik could even be nerfed effectively using customs. Just take her needles storm and replace it with paralyzing needles.

Overall my plan does not really make room for all custom moves, but I think that using the custom moves to achieve a more balanced metagame is a practical way to implement customs in competitive play.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Have to disagree with the single version of each character proposal, on the grounds that customs don't provide that sort of benefit. There aren't any straight upgrades to moves like people assume there are. I know I'm struggling to think of a character with one move that's better than default in every single way. And I do mean every way. Frame speed, damage, KO power, recovery application, range, active hit frames, etc. Every custom move asks you to give something up by design. And if it's not equal to or better than the default, then it's not an upgrade, it's just an alternative choice.

And even if moves like that did exist, making artificial buffs to characters not only goes against the logic of standardized ruleset and banning procedures, it's boring. When somebody breaks out their low tier hero, it's hype for everybody. It shows the player's dedication to the game and that character. How annoyed would you feel, as the low tier hero, to win a regional with a character that has a custom move, and then all the commentators and rando spectators are asking the same question: did you win because you were the best player, or because your character was artificially enhanced? There's a reason why in major sports leagues we don't allow scrawnier players juice up on steroids. Because making an exception for them is unfair and illogical in the context of the game.

 

[Dinoman96]

Have to disagree with the single version of each character proposal, on the grounds that customs don't provide that sort of benefit. There aren't any straight upgrades to moves like people assume there are. I know I'm struggling to think of a character with one move that's better than default in every single way. And I do mean every way. Frame speed, damage, KO power, recovery application, range, active hit frames, etc. Every custom move asks you to give something up by design. And if it's not equal to or better than the default, then it's not an upgrade, it's just an alternative choice.

And even if moves like that did exist, making artificial buffs to characters not only goes against the logic of standardized ruleset and banning procedures, it's boring. When somebody breaks out their low tier hero, it's hype for everybody. It shows the player's dedication to the game and that character. How annoyed would you feel, as the low tier hero, to win a regional with a character that has a custom move, and then all the commentators and rando spectators are asking the same question: did you win because you were the best player, or because your character was artificially enhanced? There's a reason why in major sports leagues we don't allow scrawnier players juice up on steroids. Because making an exception for them is unfair and illogical in the context of the game.

I'm pretty sure in Palutena's case, Lightweight completely outclasses Counter.

As for Super Speed, the only time I'd might want to have Reflect is when going against some of the projectile heavy characters like Villager, but outside of that I'd rather have SS.

 

[Yangguizi]

Just thinking of Ganondorf wizard dropkick is hands down better. If you would honestly rather have the default then you are just opting for a worse version of the character. Some moves are simply better for the character. There was certainly an effort to make the cutsoms balanced, and give them trade offs. However this hardly ever resulted in customs that are of the same utility as the original move. Sometimes they are overall worse sometimes overall better, and occasionally they are simply preferential variations.

While some people revel in having a low tier hero, there are also people out there who actually MAIN low tier characters. These people waited every balance patch with anticipation for their character to become less terrible. Balance patches are gone, so I say why not start a Community Balance Patch, using customs?

 

[adom4]

Just thinking of Ganondorf wizard dropkick is hands down better. If you would honestly rather have the default then you are just opting for a worse version of the character. Some moves are simply better for the character. There was certainly an effort to make the cutsoms balanced, and give them trade offs. However this hardly ever resulted in customs that are of the same utility as the original move. Sometimes they are overall worse sometimes overall better, and occasionally they are simply preferential variations.

While some people revel in having a low tier hero, there are also people out there who actually MAIN low tier characters. These people waited every balance patch with anticipation for their character to become less terrible. Balance patches are gone, so I say why not start a Community Balance Patch, using customs?

As a Ganon main who played custom Ganon a lot back when customs were still relevant i still think dropkick is overrated.
It's mostly better than the regular one but it doesn't outclass it.
* Ganon doesn't always need the extra recovery, a lot of times dark fists is enough.
* Dropkick starts up around 4 frames later than the regular kick
* it's much harder to edge cancel
* it doesn't hit short characters as reliably
* You miss out on a good kill option with air wizkick

The extra startup is the biggest thing that makes me use regular wizkick over it when i want, the move is easier to react to & once you learn to play against it it becomes a lot less effective.
Don't get me wrong it's a good move, but people make it like custom Ganon NEEDS the move in every match up when it's just not true.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

While some people revel in having a low tier hero, there are also people out there who actually MAIN low tier characters. These people waited every balance patch with anticipation for their character to become less terrible. Balance patches are gone, so I say why not start a Community Balance Patch, using customs?

If any of these players are serious about winning and have no faith in their character, then it's time to switch. They held out for the golden egg buff and didn't get it, nobody's forcing them to stick around. Character choice isn't something you're born into, it's a choice. And people that actually main these other characters play them because they feel there is something to prove in their guy's potential. Or they just don't want to take the game too seriously. Both are more valid then willingly handicapping yourself for a competition.

The idea that customs can serve as a community balance patch is vastly overrating their potential. One of the biggest reasons people weren't on board last year was because they were afraid they were too powerful and overshadowed the default options, and here you are trying to prove them right. The reality is, only a handful of characters really can stand to improve here. Everybody else gets nothing.

And we've hardly begun to talk about how the whole point of customs is playing your way. One of the great appeals of the old format of customs tournaments was you could always play your default character if you had neither the time nor interest in learning their customs. Forcing these sets onto each character alienates those other players as well. All the Toon Links forced to use Fire Bow, Lucarios forced to use a different aura sphere, Bowsers forced to use Dash Slash, and 40 more debatable choices. All because a handful of players on one site that you never met decided those were better moves.

 

[paperchao]

So can we discuss custom mario? He's a powerful and versatile threat, with access to great customs like scalding fludd, fast fire ball, shocking cape and so on, and has the potential to threaten shieks number 1 spot, custom Mario also has much better matchups due to his versatility. And actually has a kill confirm from grab on some characters(d-throw shocking cape).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So can we discuss custom mario? He's a powerful and versatile threat, with access to great customs like scalding fludd, fast fire ball, shocking cape and so on, and has the potential to threaten shieks number 1 spot, custom Mario also has much better matchups due to his versatility. And actually has a kill confirm from grab on some characters(d-throw shocking cape).

I've heard a lot of people sing the praises of Scalding FLUDD but I'm not seeing it personally. Perhaps it's because I simply don't use Mario that much, so it's possible I'm missing something.

 

[paperchao]

I've heard a lot of people sing the praises of Scalding FLUDD but I'm not seeing it personally. Perhaps it's because I simply don't use Mario that much, so it's possible I'm missing something.

It's a disjointed attack that can challenge certain approaches while comboing into his grab at earlier percents, it also helps that it needs less charge than default.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It's a disjointed attack that can challenge certain approaches while comboing into his grab at earlier percents, it also helps that it needs less charge than default.

Honestly, it doesn't impress me. It only guarantees a grab at point blank of its short range. Any farther and the opponent can jab or dodge roll, and a good chunk of the cast is floaty enough to be able to double jump before landing even at 0% thus guaranteeing nothing. As a projectile it's clearly applicable for covering landings, tech options, and some short hop heights, but remember this a move with 20+ frames of startup, they could react with shield or a double jump + air dodge if they would just pay attention. I'm more impressed by standard FLUDD for its edgeguarding application. Definitely one of the most criminally underused moves in his arsenal, and charges just a quarter of a second slower than scalding. Plus, all FLUDDS can be cancelled into shield and Mario's OoS game is really fierce. I don't think you'll have trouble getting to a full charge with any of the three options.

 

[xVenu5]

Can I get in on the discord?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dash Slash would be 1311. Dash Slam isn't viable. Have to agree entirely with Dash Slash though. It turns him into a totally different character and directly alleviates specific difficulties with recovery, approach, and baiting. But Flying Slam is hard to give up. A frame 8 command grab that kills at reasonable (80-100%) percents with the help of good stage picks and is lagless from the air. Easily a top contender for our best move.

Dash Slam was the one I picked on purpose; the move is godly. Rushing forward with a command grab is fundamentally extremely powerful, and Bowser alone can do that. Bowser's main game is poking with stuff like jab/ftilt/dtilt, and people want to shield and look for holes. You can be way over there and Dash Slam them, and that makes them either want to jump (Bowser is great at anti-air) or hit more buttons that Bowser is great at punishing. Any move that forces your opponent to stray from their primary gameplan to beat you (in the case of Bowser that plan is usually blocking a lot) is the type of move I'm highly inclined to go for, and just on a basic level, combining movement and grabbing is just so great in smash. It's less power, but since you'll land it more than twice as often as you could land default (and then factor in all the extra damage it will get you as your opponent has to play differently because you could do it even when you don't actually do it), it will do more work.

I do think Dash Slash is a solid move for dealing with extremely defensive characters (due to the armor letting Bowser through projectiles), but in general, it loses to shield instead of beating shield which to me makes it a weaker choice. I know the tech with sliding around as you land, and if you intend to take the pro-active role in a MU, that would make sense as it helps Bowser move around. If your Bowser is more like "move slowly and make them sweat", burst movement out of landing is not something you'll be getting a lot of use out of.

None of this is even to say that default Flying Slam is a bad move (it isn't at all), but I think Dash Slam is a total game changer while Dash Slash does some unique good work that nothing else Bowser has can do. My personal recommendation for custom Bowser is to be familiar with Dash Slash for MU counterpicks, focus on Dash Slam as your primary move, and drop Flying Slam. I also think Fire Roar is decent and worth knowing; it's probably worse overall, but it has its niches and is something I think Bowsers in general benefit from being familiar with.

I've been very fond of 1312 customs for Luigi, especially post-patch. With nothing to gain from the standard Green Missile other than god awful horizontal recovery, Green Missile is a phenomenal step up in terms of raw recovery alone. Much more distance, and helps offset Luigi's biggest flaw of being gimped easily offstage with his pathetic standard recovery. It's still a commitment, but the extra boost in distance really does wonders. With the nerf to his down throw setup and, in extension, standard tornado's kill power into it, I feel Mach Cyclone is a natural step up from his standard kit, although I understand, too, why some would stick with 1311 for conversions from forward air or whatever into cyclone for instance. Such an unsafe move in neutral though that I'd happily ditch the hit boxes of the standard tornado for every bit of recovery I can get offstage.

Also for anyone who may play with any set with Iceball, is it really as bad as I believe it to be? I find that move so incredibly underwhelming in every regard compared to Fireball. Though I'd be interested if there were setups or kill conversions out of Iceball, but I'm just not seeing it.

Default is better than Mach Cyclone because both are effectively equivalent recoveries if you mash at perfect speed (default can come from pixels away from the bottom blast zone to reach the ledge). We have a local Luigi player who can outmash a turbo controller, and he makes it clear that default is just not a recovery disadvantage if you can do what he can do (he also makes it clear Luigi has a great recovery if you can mash super fast). If you can't, I'd agree Mach Cyclone is better, but I think being good enough at mashing so Luigi's down-B is always enough recovery distance is kinda essential to playing the character (especially since the move additionally has many offensive applications while Mach Cyclone is a lot more niche). Yeah, it's pretty dumb, and it's not the best designed thing.

I agree on side-B; side-1 has no non-recovery use whatsoever (honestly it's rarely useful even for recovery), and side-3 is just a better recovery. Like the only downside to side-3 is that a misfire is so huge that it can overshoot the entire stage, but when this is your problem, your problem isn't so bad...

Iceballs are really interesting; they still can lead to grabs when blocked like defaults, and when you freeze, you can catch the thaw with a cyclone pretty realistically (or whatever other silly Luigi combo you prefer; the character can do a lot in this situation really). I actually think they're generally better set-up moves while being generally worse at helping Luigi navigate neutral; it's a trade-off and an interesting one. Our local Luigi doesn't really like them so I haven't seen them fully fleshed out, but I do think they have some merit.

Amazing Ampharos I'm asking you since you have a lot of experience into the custom meta. Does anyone ever discussed the possibility of having just one custom set for every character?
Not for giving "legit buffs" or quality of life buffs only to some chars but for tuning down others too, just as someone else proposed. Now that we have a Smash 4 Back Room, I find it much more realistic to be done.

I doubt there's the political will for such a thing even if it were a good idea. It's unclear what we gain from allowing precisely one custom set.

So can we discuss custom mario? He's a powerful and versatile threat, with access to great customs like scalding fludd, fast fire ball, shocking cape and so on, and has the potential to threaten shieks number 1 spot, custom Mario also has much better matchups due to his versatility. And actually has a kill confirm from grab on some characters(d-throw shocking cape).

I've never been able to make the dthrow to Shocking Cape combo work against players with strong DI, and every local I've seen try it has had the same result. Are we absolutely sure it works against human players who are using DI to its full potential? Thinkaman swore to me in the past that it does, but if he didn't, I would be convinced based on local play that it doesn't work at all.

I do like custom Mario in general; almost all of his customs are useful (the only ones I think are generally bad are neutral-3 and up-2), and he can do some pretty cool stuff. Scalding FLUDD vs High Pressure FLUDD caused a lot of local controversy; I like Scalding (it's basically like Charizard's Flamethrower for those who don't "get" the move), but High Pressure can create some really bad situations for the opponent that the locals who were more serious about Mario tended to value. I don't think he really threatens to be #1 in the custom metagame at all (his limbs aren't a bit less stubby...), but he's definitely a solid character.

 

[Yangguizi]

If any of these players are serious about winning and have no faith in their character, then it's time to switch. They held out for the golden egg buff and didn't get it, nobody's forcing them to stick around. Character choice isn't something you're born into, it's a choice. And people that actually main these other characters play them because they feel there is something to prove in their guy's potential. Or they just don't want to take the game too seriously. Both are more valid then willingly handicapping yourself for a competition.

The idea that customs can serve as a community balance patch is vastly overrating their potential. One of the biggest reasons people weren't on board last year was because they were afraid they were too powerful and overshadowed the default options, and here you are trying to prove them right. The reality is, only a handful of characters really can stand to improve here. Everybody else gets nothing.

And we've hardly begun to talk about how the whole point of customs is playing your way. One of the great appeals of the old format of customs tournaments was you could always play your default character if you had neither the time nor interest in learning their customs. Forcing these sets onto each character alienates those other players as well. All the Toon Links forced to use Fire Bow, Lucarios forced to use a different aura sphere, Bowsers forced to use Dash Slash, and 40 more debatable choices. All because a handful of players on one site that you never met decided those were better moves.

I don't understand what the point of your first paragraph is. It seems to me that having more tournament viable character is beneficial to the game as a whole. There is no reason to limit the number of viable characters to the ones that came out of the box that way.

It seems that the first and second sentence of your second paragraph are in direct conflict with one another. You say I overrate the potential of customs and then seem to be concerned with them being overpowered. However your final point is very much my own, some characters can improve with customs, specifically bad ones. Why not improve them?

I think that you misunderstand my intention here. I am not implying that we change every move in the game out for a whatever custom outclasses it. I am simply saying that for characters like Ganon, and a few other bottom tier characters, which suffer from straight up poor design choices, that we bolster them where we are able to. I would personally have no problem with allowing people to use the default, and then also allowing them to use the legal customized version, I just don't want to open the gate to having a ton of different versions available, as was done in 2015. While that method was exciting, it also raises a lot of problems, and its easy to avoid those problems by simply limiting every character to one iteration.

I would also argue that instating a legal version of a character that includes custom moves, is no more alienating then forcing someone to use a less then optimal version of their character, especially if that character is not very good.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Dash Slam

You're looking at the move at a base level. Mobile command grabs like Flame Choke and Monkey Flip are great, so you'd assume any other is good for the same reasons. But every successful grab has a chance of getting Bowser killed, all it takes is for the opponent to understand how much control they have. Bowser takes a lot of damage before death, and his playstyle incorporates rage in order to get kills as early as 60%. This conflicts with keeping damage % even in order to use Dash Slam liberally. We can't do it, every character in the game can combo us, it's killing that they have trouble with - a problem solved by running headfirst into Bowser's Dash Slam. But taking Bowser over the edge is only half the problem. In a customs settings and with the right stage, there are potentially over 30 characters in this game that can return to the ledge after the move releases them at the bottom boundary. And as far as we know, Dash Slam never kills the opponent like Flying Slam will sometimes do. They are always released and can attempt recovery. Even if they can't make it back, if both players were on last stock when it happens they already win.

You might think "why not use the move strictly for recovery and movement?", well factor in the reduced KO power and damage of Dash Slam and you'll see there's no remaining use for the move that Dash Slash doesn't also cover. Yes, Slam grabs people through their shields, but Slash from the air is safe on shield - safer than any of Sheik's aerials in terms of frame data, so you never give up a thing. Thus, Slam is not viable. Also, Slash doesn't have armor, please test things before stating them as fact. The best answer when facing Bowser with Dash Slash is not to block or dodge, but attack. Especially if you have moves with any sort of disjoint, he's fine with making trades for more rage. Approaching with Dash Slash takes over half of second, so attacking him on reaction is never out of the question. That's why you need to keep Flying Slam. I said Dash Slash makes Bowser a whole new character, not necessarily a better one.

I've never been able to make the dthrow to Shocking Cape combo work against players with strong DI, and every local I've seen try it has had the same result. Are we absolutely sure it works against human players who are using DI to its full potential? Thinkaman swore to me in the past that it does, but if he didn't, I would be convinced based on local play that it doesn't work at all.

Well, Dthrow is weight based. You could get it to register on the combo counter on characters as heavy as or lighter than Mario at kill %s. But for those kill %s, the throw places them in tumble. And the combo counter does not account for hitstun cancelling via air dodge at that point. There may be a generous sweetspot % range where it works specifically on sheik, Fox, Greninja, Roy, and ZSS thanks to high gravity, high fall speed, and low weight, but I doubt it's guaranteed on anybody that is heavier or floatier. And naturally, DI and staying away from the ledge should help as well.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yes, you have to think about who has control when you use side-B with Bowser in general and where you can potentially land... It's something you still realistically can land an awful lot and as a general rule won't die when using if you are prudent. This is experience talking; I've used this a lot against competent players. Yeah there are situations they can react to it sure; if you are playing in a way where they can sit there, watch for Dash Slam, and react with that being the game for them, you aren't playing well. If you are playing well and are making them think about a lot more than just Dash Slam and making them want to block your other stuff, you are opening doors for Dash Slam. If they don't really stand in front of you and block much, you will never use Dash Slam, but Dash Slam has done its job by preventing them from doing the thing you wanted them to do least. You're talking about landing situations and such with Dash Slash, and honestly it's confusing to me what strategic situations you're considering. You intentionally want to be jumping at your grounded opponent with Bowser like... ever? I look at jumping at my opponent with Bowser as something I want to do approximately as much as I want to jump at my opponent with Little Mac. If they force me to I will I guess, but I know it's an awful value proposition that is most likely going to make me lose for several reasons (Bowser's aerials are ridiculously unsafe, Bowser's aerials have very slow start-up making him often lose air to air, Bowser has a slower than average airdodge making his usually good defense into unusually bad defense, Bowser has horrid aerial movement, Bowser is extremely easy to juggle combo, jumping makes it more likely you end up off-stage after getting hit which means you're more likely to risk getting gimped as Bowser). I'm walking at people slowly using jabs and tilts, claiming stage control one step at a time, shielding their attempts to fight back, and using Whirling Fortress OoS along with my huge grab range to try to slowly suffocate them of options. That's my core game with Bowser, and to me it seems to highlight Bowser's main strengths compared to the other heavies. Side-B in all cases for me is a move that is "helpful but not core" since my normal grab is already great; I can look to side-B not to define my game but merely to compliment it. For that reason I ask "what beats my core game, and what move most helps me deal with that". Dash Slam is my answer to that because it increases the range over which I can potentially bully them and thus really helps me avoid the problem of them just playing it super slowly and carefully until I eventually can't help but do something unsafe because I'm Bowser and my options are not exactly flush in safety; just because it doesn't do as much damage and knockback as default doesn't mean that the damage and knockback it does isn't plenty sufficient to be really helpful...

I'm really rubbed the wrong way by the personal attack in the middle of that. If Dash Slash isn't armored, it might as well be with the priority on the slash that consistently beats a lot of projectiles often in winning trade-like ways. Looking at the code, it appears to have some sort of strange defensive boxes on frame 8 (that may not be frame 8 because of frame speed multipliers) that I probably mistook for armor (between those and a real mountain of unknown function calls, Dash Slash is a really weird move; it's not a surprise it interacts so strangely with pretty much everything, and I honestly really doubt anyone anywhere has actually accurately documented precisely how all of its properties work). If I've misstated mechanical details, please do correct me (I'm a big believer in accurate mechanics being spread, and clearly you've done a lot of detailed testing on Bowser), but "please test things before stating them as fact" assumes bad faith and is generally really rude. I'm speaking from my own experience at all times. My experience isn't perfect sure, and I obviously don't know all things. Obviously we don't agree on the tactical merits of Bowser's various side-Bs; that's fine. I'd actually say part of the beauty of custom moves is that they leave room for such disagreement that very well may come down to our core ideas about how, strategically, to play Bowser. I'm willing to give you the minimum trust and respect that you are speaking honestly from your own gameplay experiences, and I'm more than open to a continuation of this discussion as we can no doubt flesh out plenty of interesting ideas. Just please give me the minimum of trust and respect; I'm not just speaking out of my rear end...

To save trouble, here's the bizarre beast that is grounded Dash Slash:

Spoiler

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AsynchronousTimer(15.000000)#frame 15
unk_95794508(0x3fe66666, 0x0)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(22.000000)#frame 22
FrameSpeedMultiplier(2.000000)
AsynchronousTimer(34.000000)#frame 34
FrameSpeedMultiplier(1.000000)
End()

 

[xVenu5]

i value your candor.

 

[19_]

You guys watching glitch?
https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp2

 

[Garo]

You guys watching glitch?
https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp2

Yup. DC trying his best to get people oppose customs even more. Seriously, is there any good reason that Villager's stalling tactic isn't just straight up banned already?

 

[Jaguar360]

Yeah, the customs shaming is real from the commentators and chat alike. I hope that we can still have customs side events after this, because things aren't looking good.

 

[paperchao]

So looking at people struggling against trip sapling at glitch, shall we discuss custom villagers counterplay when planking? The lack of invincibility on regrab is super vulnerable...

 

[Garo]

Kirby's Meteor Stone could be effective for that, maybe?

 

[19_]

Yeah, the customs shaming is real from the commentators and chat alike. I hope that we can still have customs side events after this, because things aren't looking good.

They seem to be having fun. I have hopes for more side events.

 

[epicnights]

I'm really impressed by Void, the extra hitlag from those electric needles are making needles to bouncing fish hit so consistently, it's really impressive.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm really impressed by Void, the extra hitlag from those electric needles are making needles to bouncing fish hit so consistently, it's really impressive.

I haven't been watching, is he using Penetrating Needles or Paralyzing Needle?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It was Penetrating Needles. They do confirm into more stuff in the air, but they're not as powerful in Neutral as Needle Storm... but then again Sheik (and particularly VoiD) is very good at the neutral anyway so she doesn't really rely on Needles to do the dirty work.
He also used Pisces until he realized it was bad.

Glitch overall was very interesting, for one it showed how strong Zigzag Can is, it also shown that the Villager strat is beatable. We got to see a lot of Customs play, and we can draw a lot of discussion, specially once the Videos get posted on Youtube.

The worst part of Glitch's Customs, however, was how annoying the commentators were.

 

[xVenu5]

Yea that commentater shaming is a bit immature. Commentate the match or don't. The extra negative stuff isn't tolerated in vanilla commentary and shouldn't be in customs either.

Chat is uncontrollable on both sides so meh I guess. Lol

Kirby's Meteor Stone could be effective for that, maybe?

MikeKirby did that to capt awsum in bracket before. Lol - went thru both balloons and spiked the regrab. Was hilarious. Awsum complained cuz MK didn't tell him what that custom did and said he felt 'scummed out'. XD

 

[GUIGUI]

Has the patch altered any of the customs?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Has the patch altered any of the customs?

Only what's mentioned in the official patch notes.

 

[Ninety]

Would you say that Wizard's Foot now has merit over Wizard's Dropkick given that the damage buff now allows WF to go through several more projectiles?

 

[Rakurai]

It's always had merit simply due to how much more power it packs compared to Dropkick, IMO.

On a random side note, I love Luigi's Floating Missile custom. The damage and distance you lose compared to the standard are pretty inconsequential when it reaches max charge in less then half the time (Note: It's fully charged as soon as Luigi stops quivering, not when he stops pulsing with energy), and the fact that you don't actually start falling until Luigi loses his momentum offsets the latter flaw when it's used for recovery purposes. It honestly seems fast enough to be a viable move to throw out as a mid-range punish or edgeguard.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I had an idea of, instead of making "Recommended sets" in the Second Post of the thread, making it explanations/recommendations on characters' customs.

For example:

Spoiler

Down Special 3: Iai Counter
Considered an straight upgrade from Regular Counter, the countering window begins earlier, is faster, and sends opponents behind her. Highly recommended.



Side Special 3: Fire Wall
Covers one of Robins main weaknesses: being unable to land. Creating a hitbox almost directly below her and creating a safe spot to land, it is a good tool to use when she's pressured. It can be very useful for matchups where the opponent is fast enough and capitalizes on juggling her.

Some of the previous posts are already good enough to start working on this.
Thoughts?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I had an idea of, instead of making "Recommended sets" in the Second Post of the thread, making it explanations/recommendations on characters' customs.

For example:

Spoiler

Down Special 3: Iai Counter
Considered an straight upgrade from Regular Counter, the countering window begins earlier, is faster, and sends opponents behind her. Highly recommended.



Side Special 3: Fire Wall
Covers one of Robins main weaknesses: being unable to land. Creating a hitbox almost directly below her and creating a safe spot to land, it is a good tool to use when she's pressured. It can be very useful for matchups where the opponent is fast enough and capitalizes on juggling her.

Some of the previous posts are already good enough to start working on this.
Thoughts?

Going for full sets may be a bit much in some cases (mostly undeveloped characters; I'm sure some have more or less consensus on what's good; also patches and meta evolution are both things) but explanations on a per-move basis like you have there sounds perfect IMO.

Although since you have it as an example, a bit of weirdness about Fire Wall: It only detonates on contact with the ground. It'll go right through players in the air. (Unless my aim is REALLY screwed up - I haven't actually used Fire Wall in a while.)

 

[xVenu5]

I would def test that. That imo would make the move complete Garbo. Lol

 

[Ninety]

I can confirm that it does go through opponents in the air, only exploding as it hits the ground. However, it's very fast and the pillar of flame is huge, much larger than regular Arcfire's, so it does its job well.

As long as I was testing customs, I reaffirmed my opinion: Arcfire+ and Thunder+ are fun, but rather impractical, and Speed Thunder sucks.

 

[xVenu5]

Interesting

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can confirm that it does go through opponents in the air, only exploding as it hits the ground. However, it's very fast and the pillar of flame is huge, much larger than regular Arcfire's, so it does its job well.

As long as I was testing customs, I reaffirmed my opinion: Arcfire+ and Thunder+ are fun, but rather impractical, and Speed Thunder sucks.

I would argue Speed Thunder has its place against fast rushdown characters that would make it hard for Robin to safely charge regular Thunder. Speed Thoron being a single-hit beam instead of multihit may or may not be useful but it's another interesting property.

Thunder+ is hilarious in FFA for all that's not actually relevant in this context. Got a hepta-kill with Thoron+ once in 8P Smash.

Arcfire+ is rather pointless, I'll agree. Its range is pretty good but that's it.

 

[Ninety]

Speed Thunder seems good for quick pokes, considering the fast charge and travel time, so it may well help Robin's neutral. But the problem is that Speed Arcthunder moves and activates so fast that followups are impossible -- and none of the Speed variants have any lowered durability cost over default. So it does have its benefits, but the price is way disproportionate (Speed Thoron is also meh). Arcfire+ has a similar problem in that the benefit it offers is far offset by what's lost: it's decently fast, has good range and knockback, but you'll get far more off of Arcfire combos (and it doesn't kill until like 150 anyway).

I like Thunder+ if only because Elthunder+ charges quick and does 15%, and Thoron+ kills midweights at 85% at the middle of the stage.

 

[paperchao]

So who do we think are the top of the customs meta right now? What characters do notably better here than their default counterparts?