Meta The Fighter Atelier: A Place for the Customs Meta

ぱみゅ

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#1
Welcome to the Customs Discussion Thread!​

Here we are to talk everything about Competitive play using Custom Moves in Smash 4.
Not about equipment though, that’s a whole different topic.


What is NOT allowed:
-Meta Customs Discussion (if Customs should be turned Off).
-Non-Constructive Criticism (on any topic).
-Meta Discussion on Smashboards Rules.
-Naming Moves or Combos.
(Do and you may be infracted)


What IS allowed:
-Discussion on characters’ performances with certain Movesets.
-Discussion on individual Custom Moves.
-Discussion on Customs-On Rulesets (Setting up, Set procedure, etc.).
-Recommended Movesets.
-Posting Youtube/Twitch channels, videos or streams featuring Customs.
-Ideas to push the Customs Meta forward.
-Ideas on how to improve this thread.

Videos:​

(in progress)

FAQ:
(in progress)


And also check other relevant threads like these:
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/
 

ぱみゅ

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#2
post reserved

Current Recommended sets:
(Last updated 26/02/2016)
Changelog:
03/20/2015:
Custom Moveset Project released
 
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erico9001

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#4
This will be a nice resource :). Nice to get away from the janksayers. I wonder how opinion of custom moves has withstood since EVO? I wonder if we should get another poll going for that.

If you're looking for a custom moves ladder to join or a place to set up friendlies, I recommend you join here:
https://discord.gg/0pqkuGnInuFrMfiV
After all, discussing custom moves is hard if you aren't playing with them ;)
 
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#5
Love the thread name; had to look up atelier but it's very fancy :)

I guess the first thing we should consider discussing is which characters benefit the most from customs and why. EVO showed promise for Palutena (as a completely different kind of character - rushdown instead of defensive) and Wii Fit Trainer I believe.

Charizard is also noteworthy to me because Dragon Rush solves his Pichu problems and he has plenty of other ko moves to compensate.
 

paperchao

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#6
Dr.Mario is another notable character that benefits from customs, fast pills alleviate his mobility problems, and Breezy sheet can be a useful option against short hop approaches due to the strong windbox
 
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erico9001

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#7
I would definitely say Shulk raises places on the tier list with custom moves. The primary reason are both of his custom monado arts, which are upgrades from the regular variant if used correctly. Hyper Arts very much reward more of a momentum based playstyle, while decisive arts make Shulk almost uncomboable and unkillable with the decisive shield + Advancing Air Slash customs. All Decisive arts are more powerful (halfway between regular and hyper, exactly) without any greater downsides, so each art is quite potent.

Advancing Air Slash in general is a nice move. It improves Shulk's offensive capabilities by granting him a special move which is much less punishable due to no reduction to air speed after use, greater reliability in the two hits actually linking together, and a lower height after the second slash which brings you closer to the ground/makes you land faster. You might expect that recovery is worsened, but that is only the case for while in monado jump. Recovery is the same, on average, for monado speed, and improved for all other arts, especially monado shield. However, you will not be able to edgeguard as deep. You do gain increased horizontal edgeguard capabilities. Oh, and a different knockback angle on the first hit does mean you can stage spike with it.

Dash Vision and Power Vision add to Shulk's potential as well. Our counter is constantly missing and generally sucking. Power Vision makes up for that, at least when countering physical moves. Its slowness makes it actually just a free punish when used against a projectile, however. Against projectiles, but not only projectiles, dash vision comes into play. It takes more skill to successfully activate dash vision due to a shorter window of time, but it out-ranges mega man's pellets and charges forward quite fast. It hits the opponent at a lower knockback angle and it will kill earlier than regular vision (but not power vision). It can also lead to follow-ups on occasion. Dash vision has the effect of balancing Shulk out when against projectile heavy characters, while power vision can be useful against opponents who are mostly without projectile zoning capabilities.

Last on the notable Shulk customs list is back slash charge. It has frame 1 invincibility, so it is possible to get out of some combos using it. However, a lot of end-lag means it might not be worth it. It depends on the MU. Also, Mighty Air Slash could possibly be used effectively, but its positives (higher damage, vertical killing, high height) are usually not worth the negatives (basically no horizontal movement, much reduced range, lack of horizontal kill potential)
 
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#8
Dr.Mario is another notable character that benefits from customs, fast pills alleviate his mobility problems, and Breezy sheet can be a useful option against short hop approaches due to the strong windbox
You completely forgot about soaring tornado, the edguarding move that kills at 50% and makes his recovery 10x better.
 

A10theHero

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#9
I'm glad we have a thread like this. :)

Out of the characters I play as, in my opinion, customs definitely improve Charizard's moveset the most. Though Flare Blitz is a strong move good for hard reads, it loses pretty badly to shields. Dragon Rush at least somewhat alleviates that problem at the expense of less damage and no recoil.
As a personal preference, I like Sinking Skull, Rising Cyclone, and Fire Fang a lot too. These moves give Charizard a more aggressive playstyle and that can be fun (though I still usually prefer Flamethrower more over Fire Fang against several characters). I also heard that Rising Cyclone could potentially combo out of Down Throw and kill early.

In my opinion, it'd be cool to have a meta where you can counterpick sets of custom moves against your opponent. That adds depth and difficulty to the game, which is pretty appealing to me.
 

Jaguar360

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#10
:4greninja:'s place in the meta doesn't change too much in customs, but he certainly has some worthwhile options. Both of his custom Shurikens confirm into kill moves, at the cost of losing the general utility of Water Shuriken in neutral. I'd say that after the startup reduction on Water Shuriken, all of Greninja's neutral Bs are equally viable. None of the side or up specials really help him, but the down B customs are kinda useful. Exploding Attack is the most consistent of these, being able to punish landings and hit opponents while offstage, while Substitute Ambush can help Substitute's problem of losing to shield.

:4zelda: doesn't get anything to make her better than anyone other than Jigglypuff, but she has cool stuff. Her Side B customs turn what is a pretty bad move into worthwhile options for edgeguarding and zoning. Din's Blaze is the best of these (and possibly her best custom), creating trap situations and being particularly dangerous at the ledge. All her Phantom moves are good, though not particularly amazing. Neutral B customs are niche, but sometimes worthwhile. Up B customs are pretty outclassed.

:4yoshi: has some pretty underrated customs I think. A lot of people dismissed most of Yoshi's custom moves iirc, but I find Egg Launch, Light Egg Roll and High Jump to be worth looking into. Egg Launch wasn't affected by the endlag nerf to Egg Lay from very early on (v. 1.02?) and the positioning of the launch is very good. It can also kill outright at higher percents. Light Egg Roll is way safer than the others since it bounces him away from his opponent if it gets blocked or something. It's also better offensively since it's so quick and he can just break out of the Egg after he gets a hit with it and continue putting on pressure. High Jump is something that I initially dismissed, but with it, Yoshi's recovery is easily one of the best in the game and he has the freedom to spend more time offstage and go deeper. He's also less vulnerable to footstools. Egg Throw is a huge part of Yoshi's gameplan though and should definitely be used in matchups where he gets a lot of mileage out of it.

All of :4charizard:'s customs are good I'd say except for Down B 2 and possibly Rising Cyclone (haven't unlocked yet). Fire Fang is underrated as heck. The final hit doing knockback is a really key advantage over Flamethrower and the damage is great. It lacks the range of it's counterparts, but it's still good. Dragon Rush is obviously amazing and probably Zard's best custom move, but Blast Burn shouldn't be counted out either as a general kill move and a shieldbreaking option. It's like a better F-smash except that it does recoil. Fly High is really good. Trades an OoS kill option for a great recovery and edgeguarding freedom. I think that putting Fly High on Zard is even better than putting High Jump on Yoshi since Fly isn't all that essential to Zard's gameplay imo and is better on paper than in practice. Rock Hurl is cool and all for the frame 1 super armor, but I personally prefer Rock Smash for the power and horizontal range.

Just my random thoughts on characters atm.

EDIT: Actually, I haven't tried Sinking Skull/Down B 2 on Zard yet, so I'll hold off before saying that it's bad lol.
 
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paperchao

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#11
You completely forgot about soaring tornado, the edguarding move that kills at 50% and makes his recovery 10x better.
It's slightly overated, your opponent has plenty of time to react to the startup of it and can easily go through you with their up b before the hitbox comes out, but the recovery is definitely a huge boon for it.
 

adom4

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#12
Custom Ganon is so much better it's amazing.
Dark fists is one of the best customs in the game, it's a must on pretty much any custom Ganon set.
Dropkick is fantastic in about 60% of the MUs, it is a bit overrated though & regular wizkick def has its advantages in a surprisingly large amount of MUs.
Flame wave has a niche vs Rosa mostly because choke is horrible against her, flame chain is garbage and should never be used.
Wizard assault, Dark vault & Warlock thrust are unusably bad.
 
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#13
It's slightly overated, your opponent has plenty of time to react to the startup of it and can easily go through you with their up b before the hitbox comes out, but the recovery is definitely a huge boon for it.
The active hitbox does last forever on it. It can wait out a lot of recoveries. you can even get the 2 frame if you try.
But it is slightly overrated.
:4littlemac: gets some pretty good options. Grounding blow is a worse recovery option, but it buries, and is a pretty strong meteor. If you catch them with a dilt near the ledge, you can mash side b, meteor them to their doom, and grab the ledge. Stunning straight lunge is less powerful, but goes way farther, charges faster, has less endlag, and is a better recovery option than the other two. His custom up b's are meh. His down bs are preference.

:4myfriends: Gets furious eruption, an eruption that's even stronger, lasts longer, better for edgeguarding, and bigger. It's basically an upgrade. I know that on side b is really good, but I prefer the default. Same for up b, though I know aether drive is probably better.
Smash counter is really good, but it can miss. So yeah.
 

paperchao

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#14
I'd say Bowser gets a pretty good tool in the form of dash slash, the mobility options available with it are amazing. it can also help with horizontal recovery and can steer you to the ledge to escape a juggle. although regular klaw is still usable due to its nice kill power.
 
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Splooshi Splashy

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#15
I myself have done a LOT of write-ups for a LOT of match-ups for :4duckhunt: on the Customs side of them over the last half year, over at the DH Boards's MU Thread, including some of the more "inFamous" figures like Kuradoberi Jam (aka, :4wiifit:, and also featuring :4marth:/:4lucina:), the Brown Cyclone (aka, :4dk:, and also featuring :4bowser:), and the living embodiment of ChrisG's UMVC3 Morrigan/Doom/Vergil team that which is ChrisGer (aka :4villager:, and also featuring :4pacman:, :4ness:, :4megaman:, and :4peach:), all of whom I still actually adore! Check out the rest of my posts in that Thread for more characters examined through DH's lenses (like :4kirby:, :4gaw:, :4falco:, :4samus:, and :4lucario:).
I'll generally recommend 312x with DH for the majority of MUs, with perhaps a few exceptions (ex. Side 2 (Rising Clay) & Up 3 (Super Duck Jump) against :4littlemac:), due to Neutral 3, Zigzag Can, being capable of 20+% damage off of 1 solid anti-air confirm, and Up 2, Duck Jump Snag, being a frame 1 Wakeup DP that can make DH's recovery quicker & safer (though shorter in range withOUT walls for the wall-jump). The Gunman of choice is MU dependent, with speedsters withOUT projectiles (ex. :4feroy:) favoring Down 2, Quick Draw Aces, while folks who canNOT pierce Mega Gunmen (Down 3) with their arsenal reliably like :4dedede: will see that move deployed.

I've done a few Custom MU write-ups for :4bowserjr: as well, with my most recent being here VS :4sonic: (the links to Jr's MUs against :4dedede: & :4charizard: & especially :4duckhunt: (who I covered from his perspective as well at his own boards) are contained within that link as well). I usually rep 3x2x with Jr, for Neutral 3, Air Cannon, is the quickest starting & ending of the 3 Cannons that can push back the opponent during neutral & edgeguarding, and Up 2, Meteor Ejection, adds super armor to his Up B, making it safer for Jr (less recovery range, though) & riskier for the opponent, who can get meteor'd for his troubles if he gets too hungry for the edgeguard. Side B and Down B of Choice are MU dependent as well, with Side 2 even being stage dependent (it's like Zard's Dragon Rush in that walk-offs at Delfino, Castle Siege, and Umbra Clock Tower, allow it to potentially score shockingly early KOs), IMO. Like with DH, heavy projectilers might see Side 3, Grounding Dash, and speedsters might see Down 2, Impatient Mechakoopas, and not-so-fast folks might see Down 3, Big Mechakoopas.

Perhaps now my findings from months ago will finally get tempered input from someone other than myself at last, since in the majority of those posts I've made, it's usually been just me saying anything about the Customs side of those MUs at all.... >_<
 

| F. |

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#16
Even if :4dedede:'s customs are overall not very good, I am fond of Rising Dedede. It pretty much turns Super Dedede Jump into something similar to :4charizard:'s Fly, making the move very hard to challenge and it has the potential to kill off the side blastlines, though I haven't killed with it very often so it's situational at best. Only thing you have to watch out for is making sure you snap the ledge or you'll overshoot it and have a ton of landing lag once you hit the ground, leaving you open for a free punish.

Even if it spits opponents right back out, Taste Test is far better than Inhale in my opinion. Yes you lose the opportunity for Dededecides (but who even goes for that anyway in tournaments, especially when they can escape and you could most likely die after spitting somebody under the stage?) and turning around and spitting them offstage for potential edgeguard, but in exchange you get noticeably less startup and ending lag, more damage (12% compared to Inhale's 10%), and it being far less punishable on whiff. It actually gives Dedede a usable mixup in neutral and it's a good free damage racker. I'd take it over how bad Inhale is now currently.
 
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#17
Rosalina is often seen as a major offender when it comes to customs making top tiers better, so I'll talk about her a bit.

She has an overall good set of customs. Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit are the big-ticket items, but Floaty Star Bit, Launch Star Plus, and Guardian Luma are all serviceable in their own right if not necessarily optimal. (Trivia: Guardian Luma still pulls in items, so it's definitely worth using against someone like Peach whose projectile game is item-based, as well as anyone who lacks a projectile to begin with.)

Luma Warp leaves a huge blind spot where Rosalina cannot effectively exert pressure. The move itself sends Luma a little under half of FD, so anyone in the middle (plus or minus a character width) is safe from a Teleporting Luma Special(TM). Shooting Star Bit is a solid projectile, but it's also a projectile, which means it can be reflected into Luma's face. (Default Star Bits are not counted as projectiles.) Ness, Lucas, and G&W can absorb it, as well, so I would not want to take it to those particular matchups. I will grant it lets Rosalina hit people from a large distance away, but IMO it's inferior at close range.
 

Metal B

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#18
I said it once and i will say it again:
There should be one set customs move-set for all characters and the top-tier characters actually should get nerved moves-sets! Imagine Shiek with Paralyzing Needle, which would harm her neutral game and forces her to approach more, or Rosalina with Guardian Luma, which would help a lot of partial-heavy characters dealing with her.

Characters being too good is a similar balancing problem as fighters being low-tier. One move-set would also counter argument the issue of people not wanting to learn match-up based on all customs and setting up games.

Nerving based on the tier list:
I try to not alienate the characters too much from there normal play style and give them moves, which underline there already establish weaknesses even more. In my opinion some of the custome-moves are worse simply to give players a chance to balance the characters.

S-Tier
:4sheik: Paralyzing Needle: The move takes a lot of her options away in neutral and in advantage. First it is just one needle and therefor can be much easier defended. It has a long start-up and can't be charged, so it becomes less useful as an edgeguarding-tool. All in all a heavy nerf for her and it gives a lot of characters a better chance against her. In my opinion such a offensive character like Shiek really should not have so a great particle.
Gale: Edgeguarding Shiek was always very hard, so the befits of Gale aren't as big. But she losses another killing option, which helps underlining her weaknesses.

:rosalina:Guardian Luma: Not only fits the move better her puppeteer concept, it helps a lot of characters with particles not getting completely shot-down. First of Rosalina has to actually face her opponent and the move becomes useless without Luma, so sending him out or losing him, becomes even more of a problem and therefore underlines here weaknesses.
High Star Jump: It similar to Shiek makes her recovery a little better, but the recovery becomes even more predicable and harder to aim.

:4zss: Lateral Kick: The move gives ZSS a much harder time to kill horizontal and therefor gives many characters a longer life-span.
Plasma Dash: Forces her to come closer to the opponent and gives them an better chance of countering her.

A-Tier:
:4fox:Flying Fox: Makes his recovery even worse, since it doesn't has an hit-box and no real benefits.

:4pikachu:Distant Thunder: It's hard to find a custom, which doesn't completely change his play-style, his iconic moves and actually weaken him. Distant Thunder is seen as an slight worst options then normal thunder, so this is something.

:4sonic:Surprise Attack: Simply a worst version of Homing Attack.
Springing Headbutt: No spring as edgeguarding-tool.

:4metaknight: Blade Coaster: Meta Knight will lose his early horizontal kill-combos, which will befit a lot of characters.

:4diddy:Back Flip: One less offensive move and no command-grab, but could still be very useful.
Jumbo Peanuts: Less spammable attack at the edge.

:4mario: Super Jump: A better recovery, but Mario will lose a Out-of-Shild option. some combos and a horizontal kill-move.
 
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Masonomace

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#20
Video playlist of custom moves featured to be added to the Videos spoiler.

Perhaps this thread could be an archive of frame data & additional data of custom specials. Maybe that's one way of improving this thread albeit will be a gradual & long process of collecting the necessary data. Anyway, I'll share my discussion of Shulk's custom specials even though erico9001 erico9001 provided a great amount of info about them.

:4shulk:
Decisive Monado arts are basically patient long-lasting arts that cannot be camped easily except for Decisive Shield. However, when a Shulk has the stock and or percentage lead & cycles to Decisive Shield, they can choose to say "Yeah I'll chill for 20 seconds. Approach me if you wanna try taking the lead 'cus if not, then we can just sit in stalemate".
Hyper Monado arts are very short-lived & have to be momentum-based while requiring more stage control & dominance in order for a Hyper art to be selected & activated. If you do not capitalize with more stage control than the opponent before you select the art, then you run the risk of getting camped & thus the Hyper art goes on a 15 second cooldown plus the 6 seconds of time wasted.

Back Slash Charge has a Super Armor window from frame 1-30, & the hitbox starts on 31 until landing with a few frames of sliding hitbox. The move has very petty knockback & damage so the key phase to take advantage of is the Startup. Otherwise, you risk the mistake of being punished since you literally take a full second of endlag after you land, making the move niche for limited uses in certain MUs. Although, the move can perform well in Doubles as a emergency combo breaking halt option for covering your teammate from danger.
Back Slash Leap is a move with limited horizontal range but more vertical presence. The move performs decently but excels more on stages that possess platforms because you can land perfectly on a platform above you to deal the Landing hitbox phase which deals 18% on the back while dealing a (+10) Shield Damage modifier too. Combine this with a Buster art, & you're sure to be dealing a ton of damage on shields if not breaking it.

Advancing Air Slash does not need more praise as Erico mentioned quite enough to convince players of the applications.
Mighty Air Slash on the other hand is a move that sacrifices a lot of positives & returns you with other positives that don't quite outweigh the negatives about it. Shulk players can go much deeper & expect to come back from their edgeguards as well as punishing close-combat skirmishes on shield with Mighty Air Slash out of shield to kill off the top since it has a great amount of Base Knockback. Combine this with a Smash art & you're destined to be killing very early especially on floaties and or lightweights that would normally get launched too high for regular Air Slash and Advancing Air Slash to reach due to Rage accumulated. Still, the horizontal distance you travel is the worst of the three Air Slash variants even when you mash MAS1 & MAS2 to get the maximum drifting distance. Plus, the reduced range means opponents can be much closer to the ledge to pressure you.

Erico already mentioned a good amount of information about Dash Vision & Power Vision so I won't need to go over them for now. But, Dash Vision does have more hitbox range because the move advances forward a large amount of distance along with its fast-frame counterattack, which is why the counter handles well against projectiles.
 
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#21
Video playlist of custom moves featured to be added to the Videos spoiler.

Perhaps this thread could be an archive of frame data & additional data of custom specials. Maybe that's one way of improving this thread albeit will be a gradual & long process of collecting the necessary data. Anyway, I'll share my discussion of Shulk's custom specials even though erico9001 erico9001 provided a great amount of info about them.

:4shulk:
Decisive Monado arts are basically patient long-lasting arts that cannot be camped easily except for Decisive Shield. However, when a Shulk has the stock and or percentage lead & cycles to Decisive Shield, they can choose to say "Yeah I'll chill for 20 seconds. Approach me if you wanna try taking the lead 'cus if not, then we can just sit in stalemate".
Hyper Monado arts are very short-lived & have to be momentum-based while requiring more stage control & dominance in order for a Hyper art to be selected & activated. If you do not capitalize with more stage control than the opponent before you select the art, then you run the risk of getting camped & thus the Hyper art goes on a 15 second cooldown plus the 6 seconds of time wasted.

Back Slash Charge has a Super Armor window from frame 1-30, & the hitbox starts on 31 until landing with a few frames of sliding hitbox. The move has very petty knockback & damage so the key phase to take advantage of is the Startup. Otherwise, you risk the mistake of being punished since you literally take a full second of endlag after you land, making the move niche for limited uses in certain MUs. Although, the move can perform well in Doubles as a emergency combo breaking halt option for covering your teammate from danger.
Back Slash Leap is a move with limited horizontal range but more vertical presence. The move performs decently but excels more on stages that possess platforms because you can land perfectly on a platform above you to deal the Landing hitbox phase which deals 18% on the back while dealing a (+10) Shield Damage modifier too. Combine this with a Buster art, & you're sure to be dealing a ton of damage on shields if not breaking it.

Advancing Air Slash does not need more praise as Erico mentioned quite enough to convince players of the applications.
Mighty Air Slash on the other hand is a move that sacrifices a lot of positives & returns you with other positives that don't quite outweigh the negatives about it. Shulk players can go much deeper & expect to come back from their edgeguards as well as punishing close-combat skirmishes on shield with Mighty Air Slash out of shield to kill off the top since it has a great amount of Base Knockback. Combine this with a Smash art & you're destined to be killing very early especially on floaties and or lightweights that would normally get launched too high for regular Air Slash and Advancing Air Slash to reach due to Rage accumulated. Still, the horizontal distance you travel is the worst of the three Air Slash variants even when you mash MAS1 & MAS2 to get the maximum drifting distance. Plus, the reduced range means opponents can be much closer to the ledge to pressure you.

Erico already mentioned a good amount of information about Dash Vision & Power Vision so I won't need to go over them for now. But, Dash Vision does have more hitbox range because the move advances forward a large amount of distance along with its fast-frame counterattack, which is why the counter handles well against projectiles.
Because of the angle that dash counter sends you at, isn't it still almost as good at killing as the default?
 

Masonomace

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#22
Because of the angle that dash counter sends you at, isn't it still almost as good at killing as the default?
The angle of the standard Dash Vision counter & Forwarded input has a 32° knockback angle. Since the angle is so low, it may seem that Dash Vision would kill just about as early as regular Vision. However, the move has slightly higher Base Knockback & Knockback Growth despite that Dash Vision deals less damage. The move also doesn't get a ton of reward off punishing strong moves since the damage multiplier for Dash Vision is 1.0x.
 
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#23
The angle of the standard Dash Vision counter & Forwarded input has a 32° knockback angle. Since the angle is so low, it may seem that Dash Vision would kill just about as early as regular Vision. However, the move has slightly higher Base Knockback & Knockback Growth despite that Dash Vision deals less damage. The move also doesn't get a ton of reward off punishing strong moves since the damage multiplier for Dash Vision is 1.0x.
I know.
Also, the more horizontal a move is, the more affected it is from vectoring.
 

SwordM13X24

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#24
I myself have written off :4yoshi:'s 2222 set off as clearly inferior to his default set. Now that's just me lookin' at the moves on paper.

Lick could really be consider'd the odd move out in the set. Losin' a command grab for a surprisin' powerful lunge attack, but it loses to shields and again it's not a command grab. Not much else to say, but I guess Lick is at best a surprise attack. Even in practice, this move was probably the least useful move in the set. The other moves are a different story though.

Heavy Egg Roll on paper would be easy to counter in that ya would just have to grab Yoshi since he's goin' nowhere while in the egg. Before the shield stun changes, I especially though that Heavy Egg Roll had no good use. Now with the shield change, if Yoshi's huggin' a foe like a lovesick dinosaur in the egg, the shield pressure is insane. As yar foe is stuck in blockin' the egg, ya can very well slide to the other side of the shield. The other option is to beat out the armor which is around 15%, but good luck findin' a good Out of Shield that does 15% damage. The armor's also a semi-good option to land since non-telegraph'd 15% attacks aren't very common. Again, the overall slow nature of the move still makes me question the move's viability.

High Jump is great for air mix-ups since ya get 2 more jumps and what ever stalls ya want to use. However, it's makin' ya lose out the most important projectile that Yoshi has. That previous sentence alone should raise red flags everywhere about includin' High Jump in yar moveset, but the next move changes the story up drastically.

Star Bomb is great for as a substitute projectile and it's less laggy than the default (don't quote me). The short hop to Star Bomb throws the stars in a very wide range and knocks the foes' off the ground if they hit. Because of it's rather "spammable" nature, it can cover the low ground easy and quickly. Now ya only miss out the ability to snipe very high up airborne foes' with the Star Bomb, which the normal Egg Toss can reach and another kill option, but generally high Egg Throw snipes are not that effective/efficient to do so anyway. So when ya see the where High Jump and Star Bomb's strength and weaknesses are, ya can see that these two moves can patch up each other's lackin' area. Or ya could just stick with the default and be a bit more aggressive and cover more or less the same areas with a lil' less mobility.


Now after all that spiel I have said, I can say I'm ready to discredit myself entirely in sayin' that I'm not much of a Yoshi player and all my reasonin's are from the enrage'd unfortunate souls that has came across my custom Yoshi.

So take whacha want from my excerpt, I don't expect my findin's to be the next ground breakin' tactic like discoverin' what hit and run is but at the minimal it's somethin' to contemplate about Yoshi's Heavy Egg Roll, High Jump, and Star Bomb as useable customs or not.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,327
Location
Kansas City, MO
#25
I've put a ton of time into customs and feel pretty comfortable talking about them across the cast. My leadership was likely inadequate, but I did my best...

As per how they actually play which is the point here, here's about what I know. The following characters are the real list of characters who are severely hurt by banning customs in my opinion. Every other character is roughly similar in value with or without customs (they make a difference for everyone, but it's usually just a few places on a tier list whereas these guys jump whole tiers or more):

Ganondorf, Palutena, Duck Hunt, Marth/Lucina, Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner

Locked to 1111, I think Marth/Lucina and Shulk are still playable but on the low end (whereas with customs both are very solid characters) whereas everyone else on the list just loses all real viability. Ganondorf is just not a credible choice without Wizard's Dropkick; the most not only solves several neutral situations for him, but it gives him a real recovery which let's be honest he just doesn't have otherwise which is a character ruining weakness. Palutena doesn't make sense as a character without Super Speed; it's a character defining move. Duck Hunt absolutely needs Zig Zag Shot to be appropriately imposing; 1111 DH has the problem that he's the zoning character who sacrifices the most speed and power of any zoning character in exchange for his control (he's certainly a lot more sluggish and weaker than Villager or Rosalina) while not even having the most dominant space control. Even worse, he's pretty much hard countered by Rosalina and Villager who were competing for his job in the first place. Zig-Zag Shot is legitimately the best spatial control move in the game to the point that it makes the "I can't kill and have mediocre frame data" thing DH lives with a lot more tolerable and makes him an extremely hard to play but legitimately strong character; it feels like the whole character was designed around the idea that he has this and was intended to be the experts only smart zoner with it. Even better, Zig-Zag Shot can't be pocketed or Grav Pulled when switching directions, a quirk that I doubt is intended behavior but also a quirk that changes those match-ups from "impossible" to "reasonable" (especially the Rosa MU; defaults this is like 1-9 for DH at best). WFT likewise seems completely built around the idea that Jumbo Hoops is a thing she can do; her hitbox problems are just so crippling otherwise, and while I'll always believe in Mr. Numbers, I just can't believe in this character without this move. Mii Brawler and Mii Gunner just have horrible movesets with 1111 as is generally well known (Swordfighter lucks out with a 1111 set that is far from optimal but isn't nearly as bad).

Rosalina customs cause some consternation, but as a main of the character who has spent probably more hours playing custom Rosalina than anyone else at this point I think I should give the long form explanation of everything they do for her. They're helpful: 2311 really is just a better set than default, Floaty Star Bit and Guardian Luma have merit while Launch Star Plus is a player preference move that makes you harder to gimp in some ways and easier in others that I don't like but many smart Rosalinas do). The thing is that the help isn't really as across the board as you might think. Both Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit help Rosalina win the slow game, the game wherein your opponent isn't approaching you. In the fast game, they only offer the rare surprise hit (Luma Warp) or the very occasional bit of free damage/off-stage annoyance (Shooting Star Bit) which is nice of course but not really likely to win you any matches you wouldn't win otherwise. Most of the good characters (Sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, etc.) are pretty good at moving in and forcibly killing Luma and then trapping Rosalina in bad positions; these moves don't really help her avoid this outcome meaningfully (though I still think they're a slight positive here, do not support neutral-1 or side-1 in any circumstance). Likewise, against someone like Luigi she zones well already, they don't add much; it's not hard at all to avoid Shooting Star Bit (massive frame disadvantage on block and locks Luma's vertical position from the first frame of start-up, very easy to gain space safely on a Rosa trying to "zone" with it) and anyone who is good at the game should quickly learn the exact spacing of Luma Warp and just not let that be a problem when moving in; I don't think they really make any of her good MUs meaningfully better for her. Where they help an awful lot are against opponents who use the strategy of "I'm going to try to outcamp Rosalina", a strategy that is only really key for Olimar and Mega Man (secretly Olimar is a horrible Rosalina MU) but also is a viable tactic for characters like Sheik and Yoshi when the game is really a lot more logical and better for everyone if Sheik and Yoshi just use their fully effective offense against Rosalina and don't try to camp her...

The way customs hurt Rosalina is that a ton of characters get really great anti-Luma moves. Jumbo Hoops (WFT) is pretty much just unfair to Luma while all of the following other moves are notably extremely disadvantageous to our young friend: Speeding Bike (Wario), Quickfire Bow (Link), Penetrating Needles/Skimming Grenade (Sheik), Super Speed (Palutena), Dragon Rush (Charizard), Piercing Aura Sphere (Lucario). Non-Luma related, I've already talked about how Zig-Zag Shot lets DH deal with Grav Pull; Bowser Jr.'s custom Mechakoopas (either version) are ridiculously helpful for him in this MU as well. On balance, Rosalina probably is hurt more by other characters getting these options than she's helped by her own improved options. If I think completely selfishly, I only have two reasons to want customs at all. One is that 2311 Rosalina is frankly a lot more fun to play than 1111 Rosalina (you feel like a genius every time you catch someone with Luma Warp, too much fun) and two is that, while she gets worse overall from customs being legal, she gets help against Diddy and Olimar which are two MUs I really value every bit of help I can get. People who complain about custom Rosalina I'm convinced just don't really understand the character and what the moves mean to her.

As per particular situations in which you would notably gain from deviating from the standard 2311, here are some I've found:

vs. Diddy: Guardian Luma actually absorbs item projectiles just like default Grav Pull so you don't lose the ability to deal with bananas for bringing it (and yes, despite the graphic the range is exactly identical; I tested this). What you gain is some mild protection from Diddy's usual 50-50 of "hold banana in hand and make you guess if he's about to Monkey Flip" since Guardian Luma can potentially cover both options. It's not earth shattering, but in this MU, Rosalina takes whatever positives she can find. Guardian Luma is also obviously correct to bring in MUs where there are no projectiles (like vs MK or Ganon), but in practice I find it's never really worth using. I've yet to really explore it, but theory fighter I think Guardian Luma might be her best answer to Speeding Bike for what is probably the only other MU in which it's a meaningful upgrade.

vs. Lucario: Piercing Aura Sphere is actually kinda a huge problem, and Lucario in general kills Luma super easily. As strange as it sounds, I found Power Luma Shot really helpful here; Lucario generally negates the other neutral specials, but the charged version having invincibility can actually force him to respect you more, can extend Luma's time in the game, and can potentially take an early stock which is so huge in this MU (it's easy for Rosalina to fail to kill Lucario and have to deal with way too much high aura, especially bad since your ability to kill Lucario begins to decline at high aura as Piercing Aura Spheres kills your Luma progressively earlier). Power Luma Shot is pretty much just garbage otherwise and usually is a massive downgrade over Luma Warp or even default, very weird MU here that makes it a reasonable choice.

Teams in general: Floaty Star Bit is really good here; Rosalina using Floaty Star Bit and Luma Warp can potentially control three spaces at once which, with an aggressive partner, can create awful situations for your opponents. I'm convinced that with a well coordinated team Rosalina should always use this move in any team format (from 2v2 up to 4v4). In singles I like the idea of Floaty Star Bit a lot, but in practice I find myself always drifting back to Shooting Star Bit; I hold onto hope that one day I'll find that magic MU in which Floaty Star Bit is actually generally better instead of "pretty good, very different, but just not quite worth it overall".

Lastly, without much explanations, here are the sets I'd actually recommend using for every character, totally based on my knowledge of the characters and my experience in the custom meta. I'll be leaving out moves that are mostly for cping purposes (like Guardian Luma, tons of cases like this exist across the cast) and focus on the sets you realistically want to use most of the time, only including slashes for cases where each side could reasonably be used in a lot of MUs to the point that it's often more about how the player wants to play the character instead of just being a niche pick or a specific counterpick. If you want to learn any character in the custom meta, I suggest focusing on these moves. I can talk about any in depth, but I didn't want to write a literal million word post so I'm leaving it at this:

Mario: 1313/2313 (almost everything is usable though...)

Luigi: 1311 (1312 for mortals who are bad at mashing, but don't play Luigi if that's you)

Peach: X311 (Toad doesn't matter, player preference)

Bowser: 1211

Yoshi: 3X11 (Egg Roll doesn't matter, player preference)

Rosalina: 2311/2321

Bowser Jr.: 1113/1313

Wario: 121X (Waft is an extremely big and very difficult choice, all three are very good)

DK: X233 (Punch is mostly preference, all three are good at specific things)

Diddy: 1111/1121

G&W: 3321

Little Mac: 2211

Link: 3211/3221 (Shocking Spin Attack is a lot better than you think... but does have major downsides too)

Zelda: Have no real experience to give an informed opinion to be honest; Thinkaman knows a lot about her so ask him if you care about Zelda

Sheik: 1211/2211

Ganondorf: 2122/2132 (Dark Vault is a lot better than you think... but Dark Fists is as awesome as you think so decisions)

Toon Link: 2131

Samus: 121X (Bombs aren't a huge deal, but good arguments exist for all three)

ZSS: 1111/1311

Pit: 3111

Palutena: 2312/2322/1312/1322

Marth: 3123

Ike: X221 (Eruption variant is a minor choice with compelling arguments for all three)

Robin: 1111 (customs aren't "bad", but they're all MU counterpick stuff)

Duck Hunt: 312X (Gunman is a very large choice based on MU to the point that you shouldn't think of a general purpose best)

Kirby: 3X31 (Hammer is a small decision with reasonable arguments to be made, follow your heart and don't have regrets)

King Dedede: 3122/3322

Meta Knight: 1111/1211

Fox: 2131

Falco: 1123/1133

Pikachu: 1311/2311

Charizard: 1313

Lucario: 3111/3112

Jigglypuff: 11X1 (All three up-Bs are near useless, choose whichever one amuses you the most)

Greninja: 1112

R.O.B.: 1X31/1X33 (All choices are mostly player preference, don't make a huge difference in how the character plays)

Ness: 1111 (down-2 isn't bad for select MUs, but the rest realistically are)

Captain Falcon: 211X/212X (Falcon Kick variant is almost pure player preference while up-B choice is about 50-50 player preference and MU)

Villager: 1322/1122

Olimar: 1X11 (Pikmin Toss choice is a huge choice highly based on player preference and MU mixed together)

Wii Fit Trainer: X321 (Sun Salutation variant is very important but almost pure player preference)

Shulk: 2122/2123

Dr. Mario: 1112/2112 (very little experience with custom Doc, don't take me super seriously on this one)

Dark Pit: 3111

Lucina: 3123

Pac-Man: 1112

Mega Man: 132X (Leaf Barrier vs Plant Barrier is pure player preference while Skull Barrier is a MU specific counterpick)

Sonic: 1211

Mii Brawler: 2X22 (side special is almost pure player preference; all three are kinda bad)

Mii Swordfighter: 2331/1331

Mii Gunner: 3122/3322

EDIT: Of all characters to forget, I forgot Sheik...
 
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Garo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
109
3DS FC
3308-4572-3157
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Garomasta
#27
There's been a lot of talk about how customs make a character better, but I'd like to hear if any of you have characters that become enjoyable to play only by using custom moves. I personally find :4sheik:, :4tlink: and :rosalina: not too interesting or enjoyable when played normally, but when using customs like Paralysing Needle, Jellyfish, Floaty Star Bit, Fire Arrow and Short-Fused Bomb, something just clicks and I actually have fun with them.

Some custom related questions:

Do you think that using non-damaging Up-B customs could be advantageous against Bayonetta? I've seen cases where she uses Witch Time to counter an Up-B's hitbox, slowing down and then meteoring the opponent. Marth and Lucina for example could avoid this by using Dolphin Jump, but is it worth it over something like Crescent Slash?

After the buffs to Leaf Shield, what exactly does Plant Barrier have over it? The damage difference at least is too minimal to be the deciding point.
 

adom4

Smash Lord
Joined
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1,028
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Israel
3DS FC
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adom15510
#28
Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos to be honest, dropkick is overrated.
In the match ups where it's good it's great but honestly in at least 40% of the match ups i'd use the regular one, once you learn to play against dropkick it's a lot less effective.
Dark fists is the real star here, the move alone makes Ganon's recovery decent even without drop kick because of the super armor, it gives him an OOS option, a pseudo counter & an absolutely stupid kill move that kill people in the 40% range with rage.
 
Joined
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Geek4Jesus
#29
Lastly, without much explanations, here are the sets I'd actually recommend using for every character, totally based on my knowledge of the characters and my experience in the custom meta. I'll be leaving out moves that are mostly for cping purposes (like Guardian Luma, tons of cases like this exist across the cast) and focus on the sets you realistically want to use most of the time, only including slashes for cases where each side could reasonably be used in a lot of MUs to the point that it's often more about how the player wants to play the character instead of just being a niche pick or a specific counterpick. If you want to learn any character in the custom meta, I suggest focusing on these moves. I can talk about any in depth, but I didn't want to write a literal million word post so I'm leaving it at this:

undefined
This looks to be a good baseline to get my friends into the customs, along with a couple of my personal favorites. I think with the whole moveset project, especially the evo sets, it was a bit too much for them to think about. This streamlines it a lot more.
 

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
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Location
U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
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EquinoXYZ
#30
I've put a ton of time into customs and feel pretty comfortable talking about them across the cast. My leadership was likely inadequate, but I did my best...

As per how they actually play which is the point here, here's about what I know. The following characters are the real list of characters who are severely hurt by banning customs in my opinion. Every other character is roughly similar in value with or without customs (they make a difference for everyone, but it's usually just a few places on a tier list whereas these guys jump whole tiers or more):

Ganondorf, Palutena, Duck Hunt, Marth/Lucina, Wii Fit Trainer, Shulk, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner

Locked to 1111, I think Marth/Lucina and Shulk are still playable but on the low end (whereas with customs both are very solid characters) whereas everyone else on the list just loses all real viability. Ganondorf is just not a credible choice without Wizard's Dropkick; the most not only solves several neutral situations for him, but it gives him a real recovery which let's be honest he just doesn't have otherwise which is a character ruining weakness. Palutena doesn't make sense as a character without Super Speed; it's a character defining move. Duck Hunt absolutely needs Zig Zag Shot to be appropriately imposing; 1111 DH has the problem that he's the zoning character who sacrifices the most speed and power of any zoning character in exchange for his control (he's certainly a lot more sluggish and weaker than Villager or Rosalina) while not even having the most dominant space control. Even worse, he's pretty much hard countered by Rosalina and Villager who were competing for his job in the first place. Zig-Zag Shot is legitimately the best spatial control move in the game to the point that it makes the "I can't kill and have mediocre frame data" thing DH lives with a lot more tolerable and makes him an extremely hard to play but legitimately strong character; it feels like the whole character was designed around the idea that he has this and was intended to be the experts only smart zoner with it. Even better, Zig-Zag Shot can't be pocketed or Grav Pulled when switching directions, a quirk that I doubt is intended behavior but also a quirk that changes those match-ups from "impossible" to "reasonable" (especially the Rosa MU; defaults this is like 1-9 for DH at best). WFT likewise seems completely built around the idea that Jumbo Hoops is a thing she can do; her hitbox problems are just so crippling otherwise, and while I'll always believe in Mr. Numbers, I just can't believe in this character without this move. Mii Brawler and Mii Gunner just have horrible movesets with 1111 as is generally well known (Swordfighter lucks out with a 1111 set that is far from optimal but isn't nearly as bad).

Rosalina customs cause some consternation, but as a main of the character who has spent probably more hours playing custom Rosalina than anyone else at this point I think I should give the long form explanation of everything they do for her. They're helpful: 2311 really is just a better set than default, Floaty Star Bit and Guardian Luma have merit while Launch Star Plus is a player preference move that makes you harder to gimp in some ways and easier in others that I don't like but many smart Rosalinas do). The thing is that the help isn't really as across the board as you might think. Both Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit help Rosalina win the slow game, the game wherein your opponent isn't approaching you. In the fast game, they only offer the rare surprise hit (Luma Warp) or the very occasional bit of free damage/off-stage annoyance (Shooting Star Bit) which is nice of course but not really likely to win you any matches you wouldn't win otherwise. Most of the good characters (Sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, etc.) are pretty good at moving in and forcibly killing Luma and then trapping Rosalina in bad positions; these moves don't really help her avoid this outcome meaningfully (though I still think they're a slight positive here, do not support neutral-1 or side-1 in any circumstance). Likewise, against someone like Luigi she zones well already, they don't add much; it's not hard at all to avoid Shooting Star Bit (massive frame disadvantage on block and locks Luma's vertical position from the first frame of start-up, very easy to gain space safely on a Rosa trying to "zone" with it) and anyone who is good at the game should quickly learn the exact spacing of Luma Warp and just not let that be a problem when moving in; I don't think they really make any of her good MUs meaningfully better for her. Where they help an awful lot are against opponents who use the strategy of "I'm going to try to outcamp Rosalina", a strategy that is only really key for Olimar and Mega Man (secretly Olimar is a horrible Rosalina MU) but also is a viable tactic for characters like Sheik and Yoshi when the game is really a lot more logical and better for everyone if Sheik and Yoshi just use their fully effective offense against Rosalina and don't try to camp her...

The way customs hurt Rosalina is that a ton of characters get really great anti-Luma moves. Jumbo Hoops (WFT) is pretty much just unfair to Luma while all of the following other moves are notably extremely disadvantageous to our young friend: Speeding Bike (Wario), Quickfire Bow (Link), Penetrating Needles/Skimming Grenade (Sheik), Super Speed (Palutena), Dragon Rush (Charizard), Piercing Aura Sphere (Lucario). Non-Luma related, I've already talked about how Zig-Zag Shot lets DH deal with Grav Pull; Bowser Jr.'s custom Mechakoopas (either version) are ridiculously helpful for him in this MU as well. On balance, Rosalina probably is hurt more by other characters getting these options than she's helped by her own improved options. If I think completely selfishly, I only have two reasons to want customs at all. One is that 2311 Rosalina is frankly a lot more fun to play than 1111 Rosalina (you feel like a genius every time you catch someone with Luma Warp, too much fun) and two is that, while she gets worse overall from customs being legal, she gets help against Diddy and Olimar which are two MUs I really value every bit of help I can get. People who complain about custom Rosalina I'm convinced just don't really understand the character and what the moves mean to her.

As per particular situations in which you would notably gain from deviating from the standard 2311, here are some I've found:

vs. Diddy: Guardian Luma actually absorbs item projectiles just like default Grav Pull so you don't lose the ability to deal with bananas for bringing it (and yes, despite the graphic the range is exactly identical; I tested this). What you gain is some mild protection from Diddy's usual 50-50 of "hold banana in hand and make you guess if he's about to Monkey Flip" since Guardian Luma can potentially cover both options. It's not earth shattering, but in this MU, Rosalina takes whatever positives she can find. Guardian Luma is also obviously correct to bring in MUs where there are no projectiles (like vs MK or Ganon), but in practice I find it's never really worth using. I've yet to really explore it, but theory fighter I think Guardian Luma might be her best answer to Speeding Bike for what is probably the only other MU in which it's a meaningful upgrade.

vs. Lucario: Piercing Aura Sphere is actually kinda a huge problem, and Lucario in general kills Luma super easily. As strange as it sounds, I found Power Luma Shot really helpful here; Lucario generally negates the other neutral specials, but the charged version having invincibility can actually force him to respect you more, can extend Luma's time in the game, and can potentially take an early stock which is so huge in this MU (it's easy for Rosalina to fail to kill Lucario and have to deal with way too much high aura, especially bad since your ability to kill Lucario begins to decline at high aura as Piercing Aura Spheres kills your Luma progressively earlier). Power Luma Shot is pretty much just garbage otherwise and usually is a massive downgrade over Luma Warp or even default, very weird MU here that makes it a reasonable choice.

Teams in general: Floaty Star Bit is really good here; Rosalina using Floaty Star Bit and Luma Warp can potentially control three spaces at once which, with an aggressive partner, can create awful situations for your opponents. I'm convinced that with a well coordinated team Rosalina should always use this move in any team format (from 2v2 up to 4v4). In singles I like the idea of Floaty Star Bit a lot, but in practice I find myself always drifting back to Shooting Star Bit; I hold onto hope that one day I'll find that magic MU in which Floaty Star Bit is actually generally better instead of "pretty good, very different, but just not quite worth it overall".

Lastly, without much explanations, here are the sets I'd actually recommend using for every character, totally based on my knowledge of the characters and my experience in the custom meta. I'll be leaving out moves that are mostly for cping purposes (like Guardian Luma, tons of cases like this exist across the cast) and focus on the sets you realistically want to use most of the time, only including slashes for cases where each side could reasonably be used in a lot of MUs to the point that it's often more about how the player wants to play the character instead of just being a niche pick or a specific counterpick. If you want to learn any character in the custom meta, I suggest focusing on these moves. I can talk about any in depth, but I didn't want to write a literal million word post so I'm leaving it at this:

Mario: 1313/2313 (almost everything is usable though...)

Luigi: 1311 (1312 for mortals who are bad at mashing, but don't play Luigi if that's you)

Peach: X311 (Toad doesn't matter, player preference)

Bowser: 1211

Yoshi: 3X11 (Egg Roll doesn't matter, player preference)

Rosalina: 2311/2321

Bowser Jr.: 1113/1313

Wario: 121X (Waft is an extremely big and very difficult choice, all three are very good)

DK: X233 (Punch is mostly preference, all three are good at specific things)

Diddy: 1111/1121

G&W: 3321

Little Mac: 2211

Link: 3211/3221 (Shocking Spin Attack is a lot better than you think... but does have major downsides too)

Zelda: Have no real experience to give an informed opinion to be honest; Thinkaman knows a lot about her so ask him if you care about Zelda

Ganondorf: 2122/2132 (Dark Vault is a lot better than you think... but Dark Fists is as awesome as you think so decisions)

Toon Link: 2131

Samus: 121X (Bombs aren't a huge deal, but good arguments exist for all three)

ZSS: 1111/1311

Pit: 3111

Palutena: 2312/2322/1312/1322

Marth: 3123

Ike: X221 (Eruption variant is a minor choice with compelling arguments for all three)

Robin: 1111 (customs aren't "bad", but they're all MU counterpick stuff)

Duck Hunt: 312X (Gunman is a very large choice based on MU to the point that you shouldn't think of a general purpose best)

Kirby: 3X31 (Hammer is a small decision with reasonable arguments to be made, follow your heart and don't have regrets)

King Dedede: 3122/3322

Meta Knight: 1111/1211

Fox: 2131

Falco: 1123/1133

Pikachu: 1311/2311

Charizard: 1313

Lucario: 3111/3112

Jigglypuff: 11X1 (All three up-Bs are near useless, choose whichever one amuses you the most)

Greninja: 1112

R.O.B.: 1X31/1X33 (All choices are mostly player preference, don't make a huge difference in how the character plays)

Ness: 1111 (down-2 isn't bad for select MUs, but the rest realistically are)

Captain Falcon: 211X/212X (Falcon Kick variant is almost pure player preference while up-B choice is about 50-50 player preference and MU)

Villager: 1322/1122

Olimar: 1X11 (Pikmin Toss choice is a huge choice highly based on player preference and MU mixed together)

Wii Fit Trainer: X321 (Sun Salutation variant is very important but almost pure player preference)

Shulk: 2122/2123

Dr. Mario: 1112/2112 (very little experience with custom Doc, don't take me super seriously on this one)

Dark Pit: 3111

Lucina: 3123

Pac-Man: 1112

Mega Man: 132X (Leaf Barrier vs Plant Barrier is pure player preference while Skull Barrier is a MU specific counterpick)

Sonic: 1211

Mii Brawler: 2X22 (side special is almost pure player preference; all three are kinda bad)

Mii Swordfighter: 2331/1331

Mii Gunner: 3122/3322
I'm curious about your thoughts on Pit/Dark Pit and Lucario's optimal customs.

Amplifying orbitars are incredible in disadvantage. While normal orbitars shield any hit on the way down, the end lag makes it rather unreliable. You can be punished as soon as you touch the ground. Amplifying Orbitars on the other hand shield any attack and instantly break. This means you can shield the attack and retaliate as soon as it breaks while the opponent is still in endlag.
The orbitars come back insanely fast as well.


As for Lucario, I'm surprised that you didn't consider Snaring Aura Sphere, or either of his Side B customs. Snaring Aura sphere is amazing for making your opponent's approach much harder. It gives you quite the amount of stage control and follow up potential. Long Distance Force Palm is hell for slower opponents while Advancing Force Palm is a burst option to help lucario's approach.
 
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GUIGUI

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
394
#31
Looking at the rule of this thread, I am not sure my question here is allowed (if it isn't, sorry), but out of curiosity, for this years, what is the biggest tournament coming having Custom turned on?
 

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,179
Location
Pori, Finland
#32
Looking at the rule of this thread, I am not sure my question here is allowed (if it isn't, sorry), but out of curiosity, for this years, what is the biggest tournament coming having Custom turned on?
Well at least Union X ("Finnish Major") has customs turned on.
 

Red Stache

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#33
:4mario: Super Jump: A better recovery, but Mario will lose a Out-of-Shild option. some combos and a horizontal kill-move.
While Mario does lose quite a bit of things, using that special move... he does gain an even better edge-guarding game.

With his cape, FLUDD, and all his aerial attacks (like his back air), he can take people offstage even farther then before.
Mario can even go after people that are deeper offstage to gimp them even harder, because he can use Super Jump to recover farther, even though he will lose the options you mentioned.
 
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GUIGUI

Smash Journeyman
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#34
I don't know if this is pertinent to post it in the video section of the OP, but here are some Custom moveset video combo (I had posted them already in the previous thread):

(might be a bit outdated since the recent patches).
 
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#35
:4sheik: Paralyzing Needle: The move takes a lot of her options away in neutral and in advantage. First it is just one needle and therefor can be much easier defended. It has a long start-up and can't be charged, so it becomes less useful as an edgeguarding-tool. All in all a heavy nerf for her and it gives a lot of characters a better chance against her. In my opinion such a offensive character like Shiek really should not have so a great particle.
Gale: Edgeguarding Shiek was always very hard, so the befits of Gale aren't as big. But she losses another killing option, which helps underlining her weaknesses.
The gale thing is true.
But Paralyzing needles is not, unfortunately.
They still have pretty much the same frame data, and she can still combo from them, but she shoots 3.
Only 3, but they also do insane shield pressure, which makes camping even more deadly.
 

paperchao

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#36
The gale thing is true.
But Paralyzing needles is not, unfortunately.
They still have pretty much the same frame data, and she can still combo from them, but she shoots 3.
Only 3, but they also do insane shield pressure, which makes camping even more deadly.
Isn't it the penetrating needles that do big shield damage? Paralyzing needles paralyze and do have bigger startup I believe. Anyways nothing should be banned yet as customs still need to be tested more to see how the meta takes shape
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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#38
There's been a lot of talk about how customs make a character better, but I'd like to hear if any of you have characters that become enjoyable to play only by using custom moves. I personally find :4sheik:, :4tlink: and :rosalina: not too interesting or enjoyable when played normally, but when using customs like Paralysing Needle, Jellyfish, Floaty Star Bit, Fire Arrow and Short-Fused Bomb, something just clicks and I actually have fun with them.

Some custom related questions:

Do you think that using non-damaging Up-B customs could be advantageous against Bayonetta? I've seen cases where she uses Witch Time to counter an Up-B's hitbox, slowing down and then meteoring the opponent. Marth and Lucina for example could avoid this by using Dolphin Jump, but is it worth it over something like Crescent Slash?

After the buffs to Leaf Shield, what exactly does Plant Barrier have over it? The damage difference at least is too minimal to be the deciding point.
I wouldn't recommend that against Bayonetta in general. If she has time and space to Witch Time your recovery, you should be dead anyway, and most up specials are very useful in a lot of non-recovery contexts (often they're your best OoS option, something you very well might need against Bayonetta). Specifically for Wario or Charizard who lose very little by going to the recovery up-B, it could be logical.

Plant Barrier hits a somewhat larger area and doesn't lose petals as it hits. Leaf Shield has better frame data. The differences are mostly small so in most situations one would work the other will too, but they each work just a bit better in their specific niches than the other (Plant Barrier for covering ledges, Leaf Shield for neutral situations). I don't think any MM will ever be able to reasonably claim to have won/lost a game for picking one over the other so it's preference. Personally I prefer Plant Barrier, but I don't think it's materially superior.

Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos to be honest, dropkick is overrated.
In the match ups where it's good it's great but honestly in at least 40% of the match ups i'd use the regular one, once you learn to play against dropkick it's a lot less effective.
Dark fists is the real star here, the move alone makes Ganon's recovery decent even without drop kick because of the super armor, it gives him an OOS option, a pseudo counter & an absolutely stupid kill move that kill people in the 40% range with rage.
I've played with custom Ganon a lot; he's almost a non-serious secondary for me. The thing is that Dark Fists, while almost a strict improvement over default up-B (seriously, default up-B is just hilariously bad; both Dark Fists and Dark Vault are way, way better), doesn't fix the main problem with Ganondorf's recovery which is that it goes just barely anywhere. Ganondorf dies all the time in defaults not because he got gimped but just because he got hit so far he literally couldn't recover far enough so he falls and dies while his opponent taunts on stage or whatever; I think of the default Ganons I've played, something like half of the stocks I've taken have been this way which often leaves me wondering why Ganon deserves such a fate. Being able to make sure that never happens is worth more than any down special could ever be worth on-stage. Even better, since Dropkick actually adds distance, it gives Ganondorf recovery mix-up. With default, even when he can recover he pretty much must recover in the exact same way which is again begging for a gimp; Dark Fists can help power through some stuff, but if your opponent is savvy to it, they'll know how to gimp a Dark Fists with absolutely set in stone timing and spacing. If he mashes out a dropkick right after exiting hitstun, it usually puts him much closer to the stage so he can vary his timing and spacing which makes him way harder to gimp. In near recovery situations, it even lets you situationally recover high which, while not a good go-to option, does make your chance of making it back way better if your opponent has to respect that you could do that instead of your opponent not even having to think about it since default Ganondorf is physically unable to ever recover high. Sometimes you can even gamble on dropkick to get out of juggles because of the horizontal movement; it's not generally safe and not something you'll do often, but there are just way more situations it can be a thing than default allows to occur. My experience is that the average Ganondorf stock, with dropkick, lasts 20-30% longer than it would with default; sometimes it's less, but sometimes it's a lot more. This means that you have almost half an extra stock every 2 stock game for bringing dropkick; that's the kind of thing that totally changes a character's worth.

Offensively, Dropkick is often unsafe but with certain spacings can be safe. Default is basically going to be punished 100% of the time if it doesn't hit. Both are very much "sometimes" moves, but I find you can get away with using Dropkick in a typical MU about twice as often as you'd get away with default if your opponent is comfortable with both (and obviously like 10x as much if your opponent has no clue what to do about Dropkick, but that isn't a fair assumption). Against Yoshi in particular I think default warrants consideration since eggs are really mean to Dropkick while default really does a ton of work against egg spam, but even then I'd be hesitant to sacrifice a better general purpose on-stage move and my most important recovery tool that almost literally doubles how far I can recover from for a tool that might MU specific help me beat a projectile. I do understand why Ganons who are the kind of people stubborn enough to play Ganon even with customs banned might have grown attached to default Wizard's Foot and its burst movement, but I think the value proposition of Dropkick viewed independently is just absurdly high to the point that it's very, very hard to give up.

At kill ranges, people can often DI out of the second hit of Dark Fists; it's not as nuts as it seems at first (or even seems after a while if your opponent has bad DI... which so many to this day sadly do). It's still a great option (as opposed to the other two which have virtually zero offensive potential), but I find it's rarely actually the tool that takes the stock with the main thing it brings to the table being some kind of way to force characters like Bayonetta or Sheik to actually think when going crazy offense on him (doesn't stop them at all, just forces them to think and respect one thing instead of respect zero things like they usually would). It's a great move, but I do stand behind my assertion that Wizard's Dropkick is the move that fundamentally changes Ganondorf's game.

I'm curious about your thoughts on Pit/Dark Pit and Lucario's optimal customs.

Amplifying orbitars are incredible in disadvantage. While normal orbitars shield any hit on the way down, the end lag makes it rather unreliable. You can be punished as soon as you touch the ground. Amplifying Orbitars on the other hand shield any attack and instantly break. This means you can shield the attack and retaliate as soon as it breaks while the opponent is still in endlag.
The orbitars come back insanely fast as well.


As for Lucario, I'm surprised that you didn't consider Snaring Aura Sphere, or either of his Side B customs. Snaring Aura sphere is amazing for making your opponent's approach much harder. It gives you quite the amount of stage control and follow up potential. Long Distance Force Palm is hell for slower opponents while Advancing Force Palm is a burst option to help lucario's approach.
Pit/Dark Pit Orbitars are a move I probably should have X'd since my experience is that the move is pretty limited in utility for all versions with the defaults just being the most consistent and reliable in a projectile heavy showdown, and frankly I have less experience with this character than with most others (he's not popular at all in my region and was probably the character I didn't specifically mention that I felt the most sketchy listing out). You make an interesting argument for Amplifying Orbitars, and I'll have to explore that. If you're essentially correct about them letting you out of disadvantage (have any frame data on how fast to start blocking and how quickly you recover from a break?), they would indeed be a very rational first option.

Lucario is funny. Snaring Aura Sphere is a good move (phenomenal move in doubles) and is likely just as good if not better than default; Lucarios who insisted upon default over Snaring always drove me nuts. Piercing Aura Sphere is so good that I find it doesn't really matter. Piercing Aura Sphere is just so fast and disruptive, and as the aura gets up, it hits very hard relative to the volume with which it can be thrown; practically, spamming Piercing is more stage control than dropping one Snaring. Snaring is a lot more fun than Piercing, but Piercing just brings Lucario wins in a way nothing else really does for him (Piercing Aura Sphere alone is so good I think Lucario is relatively one of the bigger beneficiaries of customs even if he doesn't even consider using any others).

As per Force Palm variants, default is just such a central kill move to Lucario that I find it hard to justify the variants. Advancing Force Palm is a ton of fun and has incredible synergy with Snaring Aura Sphere, but if you're using Piercing anyway (which you should) it's harder to set up and doesn't kill nearly as early. Long Distance Force Palm, likewise, is indeed obnoxious for slower opponents but not as obnoxious as using that time to throw more Piercing Aura Spheres and keeping your side-B on default so you can kill your slow, heavy opponent "way too early".
 
Joined
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#39
Dash Slash would be 1311. Dash Slam isn't viable. Have to agree entirely with Dash Slash though. It turns him into a totally different character and directly alleviates specific difficulties with recovery, approach, and baiting. But Flying Slam is hard to give up. A frame 8 command grab that kills at reasonable (80-100%) percents with the help of good stage picks and is lagless from the air. Easily a top contender for our best move.
 

RIP|Merrick

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#40
I've been very fond of 1312 customs for Luigi, especially post-patch. With nothing to gain from the standard Green Missile other than god awful horizontal recovery, Green Missile is a phenomenal step up in terms of raw recovery alone. Much more distance, and helps offset Luigi's biggest flaw of being gimped easily offstage with his pathetic standard recovery. It's still a commitment, but the extra boost in distance really does wonders. With the nerf to his down throw setup and, in extension, standard tornado's kill power into it, I feel Mach Cyclone is a natural step up from his standard kit, although I understand, too, why some would stick with 1311 for conversions from forward air or whatever into cyclone for instance. Such an unsafe move in neutral though that I'd happily ditch the hit boxes of the standard tornado for every bit of recovery I can get offstage.

Also for anyone who may play with any set with Iceball, is it really as bad as I believe it to be? I find that move so incredibly underwhelming in every regard compared to Fireball. Though I'd be interested if there were setups or kill conversions out of Iceball, but I'm just not seeing it.
 
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