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Thinkaman

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BTW everyone, Duck Hunt is firmly top 10 with customs. If you do not think ZZS is the best custom move in the game, you are objectively wrong.

Fox and Mario are probably top 2 thanks to the kill confirms they gain. The rest of the usual top 15 doesn't change much, besides the possible addition of Marth and a much more threatening DK and Pikachu at lower-level play.

Palutena, Ganon, and WFT are WAAAY better but don't break into the upper pantheon.
 

Nu~

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BTW everyone, Duck Hunt is firmly top 10 with customs. If you do not think ZZS is the best custom move in the game, you are objectively wrong.

Fox and Mario are probably top 2 thanks to the kill confirms they gain. The rest of the usual top 15 doesn't change much, besides the possible addition of Marth and a much more threatening DK and Pikachu at lower-level play.

Palutena, Ganon, and WFT are WAAAY better but don't break into the upper pantheon.
I'm just curious, but where would Lucario fit into all this madness?

Both of his custom Aura Spheres are pretty crazy, his force Palm that rockets him forwards is a much needed tool in nuetral, and his paralyzing counter makes his down B useful for once.
 

Thinkaman

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Losing to Duck Hunt like all the other plebians.

But seriously, I don't understand Lucario's neutral dynamics well enough to understand how those tools would actually affect his modern matchups--he is one of the matchup sets I know the absolute least about.
 
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I want to do some more matches/upload vods before making a detailed writeup in the future, but Pacman jumps up surprisingly high in customs.

Meteor Trampoline at the ledge guarantee kills about half of the cast at 100%, and on fire hydrant kills before 80%.

Freaky Fruit is terrifying.
 
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Nu~

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I want to do some more matches/upload vods before making a detailed writeup in the future, but Pacman jumps up surprisingly high in customs.

Meteor Trampoline at the ledge guarantee kills about half of the cast at 100%, and on fire hydrant kills before 80%.

Freaky Fruit is terrifying.
Unfortunately the on fire hydrant kills us just as easily due to the nature of it. High gamble hydrant

Freaky fruit is kinda unreliable, but you can do some REALLY cool things with them. However, they still have the weakness of any pacman fruit: hitboxes beat them. It's worse though because they're generally weaker than the original fruits.
 
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Unfortunately the on fire hydrant kills us just as easily due to the nature of it. High gamble hydrant

Freaky fruit is kinda unreliable, but you can do some REALLY cool things with them. However, they still have the weakness of any pacman fruit: hitboxes beat them. It's worse though because they're generally weaker than the original fruits.
I know it's a tall order, but what if the Pac-Man was well-versed in all 3 fruit variants and swapped between them for each game? Do you think the relative unpredictability (in the "oh god the fruits are flying completely differently now" sense) would be worth the effort?

That question seems to be Pac-Man in a nutshell, actually. He can do so much crazy stuff.
 

Nu~

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I know it's a tall order, but what if the Pac-Man was well-versed in all 3 fruit variants and swapped between them for each game? Do you think the relative unpredictability (in the "oh god the fruits are flying completely differently now" sense) would be worth the effort?

That question seems to be Pac-Man in a nutshell, actually. He can do so much crazy stuff.
It probably would shake the opponent up pretty well (and would be murder on stamina of the opponent) so I'm inclined to say yes. Especially given how so few people have extensive pacman knowledge.

I would like it more however, if you could mix all three custom fruits together and choose which ones you want in your stack of eight.

There could be a certain matchup in which the freaky fruit galaxian is pivotal, but you don't want to give up bell in default.
 

Ninety

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BTW everyone, Duck Hunt is firmly top 10 with customs. If you do not think ZZS is the best custom move in the game, you are objectively wrong.

Fox and Mario are probably top 2 thanks to the kill confirms they gain. The rest of the usual top 15 doesn't change much, besides the possible addition of Marth and a much more threatening DK and Pikachu at lower-level play.

Palutena, Ganon, and WFT are WAAAY better but don't break into the upper pantheon.
Which are Fox and Mario's new kill confirms? Also, that's ZZS and not ZSS, right?
 

Thinkaman

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Fox has Twisting Fox, Mario has Shocking cape out of d-throw and various Scalding FLUDD gimmicks.

Both also have situational projectile "upgrades" that can help a bit in some matchups.

And yeah, ZZS is Zig-Zag Shot, a move which is better than Luma.
 
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I know it's a tall order, but what if the Pac-Man was well-versed in all 3 fruit variants and swapped between them for each game?
Yes.

Default fruit is optimal but Freaky Fruit has some quirks that can decide a 2 stock game, namely the first three fruits + meteor key z drop shenanigans.
 

paperchao

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Can confirm, Zzs is a ridiculous move with an insane amount of options.
I'd also say rosalina is hurt by customs, a lot of characters gain new tools to get rid of luma and make the mu easier
 

ぱみゅ

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Once again, EVO proving that Customs are fine, logistically.

The year they ran Customs the event went fine, finished in time, and had a decent schedule.
This one it was not, the tournament was run poorly, players were exhausted, the setups were cramped, and, while they finished in time, the experience was WAY worse.

The point is that the problem is not customs per se, but how TOs handle their resources.
:196:
 

Nu~

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Once again, EVO proving that Customs are fine, logistically.

The year they ran Customs the event went fine, finished in time, and had a decent schedule.
This one it was not, the tournament was run poorly, players were exhausted, the setups were cramped, and, while they finished in time, the experience was WAY worse.

The point is that the problem is not customs per se, but how TOs handle their resources.
:196:
Do you think customs will ever be able to make it back into the broader scene?

I'd hate to see this much potential gone forever
 

Jaguar360

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Do you think customs will ever be able to make it back into the broader scene?

I'd hate to see this much potential gone forever
If we push for more side events at tourneys like Glitch probably. A customs side tourney would have been great to see at Super Smash Con. Maybe Genesis 4 or Big House 6 is an opportunity?
 

RIP|Merrick

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If we push for more side events at tourneys like Glitch probably. A customs side tourney would have been great to see at Super Smash Con. Maybe Genesis 4 or Big House 6 is an opportunity?
Sadly for Big House 6, Michigan at large strongly detests and loathes customs, the TOs there included on the east side, so it is incredibly unlikely they will even see a side event run there. Just make any one post in the Michigan Smash 4 group about Miis alone and you'll see what I mean.
 

san.

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It's pretty sad, but not surprising. Patches, Cloud, and Bayonetta arguably counter some of the more problematic customs, while the meta has been progressing a fair bit to counteract gimmicky play. It's not really viable for side events since many players hate their existence while many others (like myself) are largely neutral/don't care much about having them.
 
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It's pretty sad, but not surprising. Patches, Cloud, and Bayonetta arguably counter some of the more problematic customs, while the meta has been progressing a fair bit to counteract gimmicky play. It's not really viable for side events since many players hate their existence while many others (like myself) are largely neutral/don't care much about having them.
How do Cloud and Bayonetta counter problematic customs? (Serious question, I haven't given any thought to it until now.) And what about the other DLC characters, especially Mewtwo and Ryu?
 

san.

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How do Cloud and Bayonetta counter problematic customs? (Serious question, I haven't given any thought to it until now.) And what about the other DLC characters, especially Mewtwo and Ryu?
Cloud vs. most of the campy customs (Rosalina, Villager, Sonic). Bayonetta also does decently against them. Helps that Villager's exploding balloons were nerfed iirc.

Cloud:
Villager: Free limit charge if Villager doesn't approach. Doesn't care about exploding balloons
Rosa: Can kill luma effectively enough where the customs don't matter as much (it's mostly Rosalina herself and her edgeguarding that's the problem)
Sonic: Hammer Spindash can be dealt with when you see it coming. Cloud has the disjoint to keep him off.

DK's wind tornado leaves him in a pretty poor situation against most of the DLC crew as well after you shield it.

I didn't include Mewtwo since I don't know as much about him, and how effectively he can play an anti-camp game vs Rosalina, Villager, and Sonic.

Pika's isn't bad if you avoid the jab lock setup. Pika can get heavy punished if he screws up and a good portion of the cast can do that.

Other customs iirc merely situationally improve the character and aren't seen as gimmicky. Although, I think current patch Marth probably has the makings of an extremely strong character with customs, but that's my guess.
 
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Explosive Balloon Trip was nerfed TWICE, the fuel system makes it harder for them to recover and the hitbox is noticeably smaller. The move isn't nearly as good as it was before (and even then it wasn't stellar, it just went unpunished way too often).
:196:
 

Kofu

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Explosive Balloon Trip was nerfed TWICE, the fuel system makes it harder for them to recover and the hitbox is noticeably smaller. The move isn't nearly as good as it was before (and even then it wasn't stellar, it just went unpunished way too often).
:196:
Villager really shouldn't have been ledge camping regardless; the hitbox size nerf was the bigger hit. It used to be a decent anti-air and could actually be used to kill. Well, it still can, it's just harder to hit with it. I heard that the manual detonation for it is actually a frame 1 action, though I haven't confirmed this.
 

Billwally

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Personally, I don't really think customs matter because it's not used competitive play
 
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Personally, I don't really think customs matter because it's not used competitive play
Isn't that circular logic? Customs aren't used in competitive play, therefore they don't matter vs. customs don't matter, therefore they're not used in competitive play. Neither is a truism by itself, you need supporting facts. This also ignores that for a not-insignificant chunk of time, they were used competitively up to and including EVO 2015.

For those of us who do enjoy customs and everything they bring to the table, dismissing them as irrelevant because they're not used on a wide scale is a bit of a slap to the face.
 
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Losing to Duck Hunt like all the other plebians.

But seriously, I don't understand Lucario's neutral dynamics well enough to understand how those tools would actually affect his modern matchups--he is one of the matchup sets I know the absolute least about.
Basically, Lucario moves from a character that requires to player to carefully monitor their damage and keep control of their momentum into a character that uses snaring aura sphere and punishes however the opponent reacts to it. Snaring aura sphere gives him the ability to shut down most rushdown characters, and Lucario turns into mostly a defensive character. Keep in mind, Snaring Aura Sphere still preserves the shield pressure and combos he gets from neutral b.

tl;dr lucario's neutral be makes him good at defense and improves matchups against rushdown
 

Garo

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To my understanding it's generally considered to be Charizard's best side special. It doesn't leave him open when hitting a shield since it just goes through them, which makes it safer both on stage and when recovering. It also doesn't deal any recoil damage and has a faster startup if I'm not mistaken. The killpower's not as good as Flare Blitz's or Blast Burn's, but since it drags the opponent along it can kill surprisingly early if you take a risk and try to hit an opponent offstage or near the ledge while facing the closer blast zone.
 
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To my understanding it's generally considered to be Charizard's best side special. It doesn't leave him open when hitting a shield since it just goes through them, which makes it safer both on stage and when recovering. It also doesn't deal any recoil damage and has a faster startup if I'm not mistaken. The killpower's not as good as Flare Blitz's or Blast Burn's, but since it drags the opponent along it can kill surprisingly early if you take a risk and try to hit an opponent offstage or near the ledge while facing the closer blast zone.
Sounds cool but since it goes through shields can't an opponent just give chase and hit you when the move ends? also love blast burn due to it's ridiculous kill power and shield breaking capabilities. Got a genuine death threat by beating a DK user who was using kong cyclone and was congratulated by another for beating his Ike with it when he typically beats me. Range is complete crap though.
 

Garo

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Sounds cool but since it goes through shields can't an opponent just give chase and hit you when the move ends?
I think so, especially if the opponent's character is fast, but because they have to chase after Charizard they don't have time to do an especially hard punish, like a charged Smash attack in case of a shielded Flare Blitz or Blast Burn where Charizard falls on his back. Not that you'd necessarily want to shield a Blast Burn, because as you said, it does quite a bit of shield damage.
 
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Dragon Rush doesn't have the damage based armor that the other two moves have, so I don't think it would hold up as a recovery option in competitive play. Mario's late Nair possesses enough range to trade favorably with dragon rush so really any aerial works. If you knock charizard far enough away, he has no other options than to dragon rush again, making a constant loop of him taking damage until he finally dies, regardless of whether the opponent trades for 1% damage or beats him outright.

I think default is the most sensible for recovery. Trading with this move can prove fatal, and there's extremely few aerials that deal 15% damage and have the range to beat it without a trade.

Blast Burn is kind of nonsensical. But because its explosion is dished out in multiple hits not connected to charizard's body, the move is about 20 frames safer on shield than default, but still pretty unsafe if there's no battlefield platform above you. Would be cool if the move has armor starting earlier during the windup, but then it would be a replacement for Rock Smash instead of Flare Blitz.
 

Garo

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Good point on the armour, I had completely forgotten about that. When talking about recovering, I mainly had in mind what I've seen when playing myself: an opponent using Flare Blitz just above the stage (probably hoping to interrupt an edge guarding attempt), where it can easily be shielded when standing on the edge and then punished.
 

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I'm more in favor of Blast Burn personally. RageZard on top of applying decent shield pressure in whatever ways necessary means your upcoming BB is going to make them drop shield out of fear from not wanting their shield broke. But even if you didn't want to be damaged, choosing to hold your bubble shield means that the multi-hits on shield destroys the HP to the max. Heck, even the opponents who never remember to hold shield against this move end up dropping it & being delivered a cheesy star KO. . .this is expected only for the early-phase of realizing that you rarely play against the character let alone this particular Side-Special move. That is for when you have inexperience dealing with the move which is later coming down to the TL;DR of:

"Do I hold shield & risk a shield break? Or should I take the hit(s) & likely die / take huge damage?"
 
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I'm more in favor of Blast Burn personally. RageZard on top of applying decent shield pressure in whatever ways necessary means your upcoming BB is going to make them drop shield out of fear from not wanting their shield broke. But even if you didn't want to be damaged, choosing to hold your bubble shield means that the multi-hits on shield destroys the HP to the max. Heck, even the opponents who never remember to hold shield against this move end up dropping it & being delivered a cheesy star KO. . .this is expected only for the early-phase of realizing that you rarely play against the character let alone this particular Side-Special move. That is for when you have inexperience dealing with the move which is later coming down to the TL;DR of:

"Do I hold shield & risk a shield break? Or should I take the hit(s) & likely die / take huge damage?"
I was wondering why I effortlessly beat the classic 9.0 challenge without losing a life with this special but not with dragon rush. 1. The other CPUs underestimate the blast radius (it's REALLY big) 2. Like you said the opponent ends up in a 'heads I win, tails you lose' situation especially as zard's damage gets higher, a broken shield meaning you lose a stock due to being wide open? Or just sacrifice the stock anyway? Neither are attractive propositions ESPECIALLY if zard has 50% or 100% damage rage.
 
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Zario777

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I would hope it matters. Customs never got the waters tested like stage-legality does. I mean, all they had to do was ban windboxes and (if they really wanted to be conservative with the allowed customs) only allow one special to be changed at a time. This would have removed the jank of Windy Kong (among possible others), and not only would 1 special at a time allow for all legal variations to be saved at once (2/3111, 12/311, 112/31, 1112/3), it would rid of unfair pairings like Extreme Balloon Trip + Trip Seed, Lightweight + Superspeed, etc etc.
 

Bobalicious

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I still thing the main problem with customs is that some characters get even more separated from the cast. Let's use Jigglypuff as an example, she's already clearly the worst character in the entire game and with customs she gets even worse due to her lack of usable customs. Low-tiers like Zelda, Roy, and Falco don't benefit much. I know for fact that Zelda has one beneficial custom, but it's only very slightly better than her default and isn't that important. That's why I find customs even more unbalanced.
 

Zario777

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I feel like that's not the fault of customs though. Jigglypuff (and the like) being worse due to others getting better means that the amount they'll be seen in competitive play goes from hardly to....hardly. Also, Jigglypuff can combo her Up Throw/Pound Blitz into Leaping Rest given the DI read/lack of DI. The hitbox lingers a lot longer and can catch air dodges.

Admittedly, customs doesn't help out everybody, but that doesn't mean that those that it DOES help should have to miss out on their chance of being viable. And if there are some customs that are unanimously broken, the community could -- like they do with stages -- just ban the custom move, instead of customs as a whole.

I personally think my simple rules of 1 custom at a time and no windboxes would alleviate most of the unfair customs, but since I have no vocal power in the competitive scene, they tend to fall on deaf ears.
 

Zario777

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Ban customs WITH windboxes. Of course moves that already have windboxes wouldn't need to be banned; that would be ridiculous. But as custom specials with windboxes are optional and can be finnicky, banning those shouldn't be a problem nor a hindrance (Except for Dr. Mario using Soaring Tornado)
 

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Fast fire bird, explosive lasers, and void reflector are really good tools for falco that opens up a lot of stuff for him, he also has the option of using an invincible phantasm in edgeguard heavy mu's. I wouldn't call him a loser in the customs meta
 
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