The Falcon Match-Up Index

[Yung Mei]

uhh, whats the Snake Falcon matchup? i see 35-45, 40-60, i dont even know anymore

 

[lordhelmet]

uhh, whats the Snake Falcon matchup? i see 35-45, 40-60, i dont even know anymore

This is another iffy one where I've seen a lot of ratios for... if you ask me it's 35-65 Snake's favor.

 

[Darky-Sama]

35:65 IMO.

Snake can't demolish us like most characters, but he's still a wall of priority. He's difficult to punish too due to his range, so that shuts down Falcon's options by a large fraction. He's easier than a lot of match-ups though.

I'd give his overall threat a 8/10. lol

 

[Yung Mei]

what would be a good strategy against snake?


im kinda leaning toward "keep him in the air, and use **** tons of uAir"

 

[Darky-Sama]

If you can get him in the air, yeah. Abuse your Uair. He has a lot of knockback resistance due to his weight class, so smack him around with some spaced Uairs if you can. Like I recommend for just about every match-up for Falcon, abuse your grabs.

Dash -> Shield -> Grab is good, but it's difficult to use it against Snake since his tilts push you away so much. Just be really trigger happy with that shield button though and don't go in for anything stupid. If you don't think something will hit, then don't do it. You can't really take too many risks against Snake because he can turn a match around ridiculously quick if you're not careful. {or if you even get in the lead. lol}

 

[Yung Mei]

would jab/jab/grab/dThrow/nair be fine to use?

 

[Darky-Sama]

I use that on occasions, but Uair is much more reliable. You're less likely to be punished for it. For Falcon's Nair to hit, you'd have to be within the range of Snake's Nair. Which I wouldn't risk. Dthrow doesn't give much knockback, so he wouldn't need to DI much. Throwing a Nair in wouldn't be risky for him at all.

 

[Yung Mei]

I use that on occasions, but Uair is much more reliable. You're less likely to be punished for it. For Falcon's Nair to hit, you'd have to be within the range of Snake's Nair. Which I wouldn't risk. Dthrow doesn't give much knockback, so he wouldn't need to DI much. Throwing a Nair in wouldn't be risky for him at all.

ahh ok. i need to study my options more

 

[lordhelmet]

Does anyone know how much the first 3 hits of Snake's nair does? It's pretty easy to SDI and punishable with a bair, uair, or up-b

 

[Darky-Sama]

True, but it's better to just avoid it in this case. Especially when you have the option of safely Uairing him.

 

[-Mr. T-]

it doesnt do that much but if you dodge it you have him open for atleast 1 attack.

 

[Player-3]

....it does quite a bit

i'd say 20-30%

 

[teluoborg]

Entire Nair does something like 28%
So first 3 hits must at least do 15%

Otherwise Snake is the perfect matchup example where you shouldn't try anything funny. Just keep zoning with aerials until you see an opening, then land a Uair/Bair and repeat. Grabs work well when he uses his nades.

 

[lordhelmet]

Originally Posted by Vermanubis
50:50 - Even
55:45 - 60:40 - Slight to Moderate disadvantage
65:35 - 70:30 - Noticable disadvantage
75:25 - 80:20 - Severe disadvantage
85:15 - 90:10 - Nearly unwinnable
95:5 - 100:0 - Realistically unwinnable

Took from Ganon boards, I think it works better than what we have now, maybe merge the two. Considering that 7-3 isn't necessarily unwinnable. and IIRC DK vs D3 is 1-9

 

[teluoborg]

What's the difference between "moderate" and "noticable" ?

Personnally I'd prefer something like that :

5-5 : even or near even.
No character really has the upper hand.

4-6 : noticable disadvantage.
The opponent has some "hard to deal with" moves that give him the upper hand.

3-7 : severe disadvantage.
The opponent can fair with our entire gameplay by using one strategy.

2-8 : **** disadvantage.
The opponent can crush our entire gameplay by using one strategy.

1-9 and 0-10 are just here to look flashy on the chart and should never be used.

How does it sound ?

 

[lordhelmet]

It's too narrow and does't sound very professional. And "using one strategy" is rather subjective and doesn't define the match-up very well.

Verm's is just simple and straight to the point.

 

[teluoborg]

"Strait to the point", "professional",

Yeah fine let's go with an example.

Olimar/Falcon

Olimar just uses pivot grab, side B and Usmash and Falcon is screwed.

My list says it's 8-2 Olimar.
Verma's says it's ????
Is Falcon in a noticable disadvantage, in a severe disadvantage or in a nearly unwinnable situation ? What's the difference ?
Those words don't mean anything concrete.

 

[lordhelmet]

Match-ups aren't concrete either. And using "side B, usmash, and pivot grab" is not a "single strategy"

And furthermore Falcon isn't "screwed" if Olimar only uses those things, in fact that would be easy and predictable to beat.

On top of that "noticable disadvantage, in a severe disadvantage or in a nearly unwinnable situation" are all levels of severity if you will. Good/Better/Best for example.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I have to agree with Helmet here. Although those are clearly Olimar's best moves, he does much better if he's using other attacks mixed in with it. I was playing someone yesterday and he was juggling me around with some of the most ridiculous combinations. Downthrow -> Upsmash -> Uair -> Uair -> Fair.

Olimar is ******** though, most of his combo potential relies on what Pikmin he has following him and in what order. So with that being said, yeah, it's important to watch out for those moves primarily. They don't screw Falcon over completely, but they're really stupid.

 

[teluoborg]

On top of that "noticable disadvantage, in a severe disadvantage or in a nearly unwinnable situation" are all levels of severity if you will. Good/Better/Best for example.

Yes, yes I know. What I don't know is which level of severity is the Oli matchup ? And how can you justify it ?

And why are you taking a one line example so seriously ? Olimar doesn't need mixups, so he beats us with one strategy.

Also it's not a final version, I just made the defs as I was typing so it needs some correction.

 

[Lionman]

Snake vs Falcon is 35:65, you cant win a professional Snake but you can take off all wannabetop easy

 

[Darky-Sama]

That applies for just about any match-up that doesn't have a single match-leveling move. Like Pikachu's chaingrab on Falcon, Olimar's grabs, up+B, smashes. If it doesn't shut the character down completely, then it usually just relies on who's more skilled.

I'm sure Falcon could beat Snake on a professional level, considering he doesn't completely shut us down. So I wouldn't say Falcon "can't win", it's just not gonna be that easy.

I do agree on the ratio though. lol

 

[lordhelmet]

Teluoborg yours just doesn't work because "the use of one strategy" is both extremely general and linear. It just doesn't make sense.

I took Verm's quote because it better suits characters with lots of bad match-ups than Praxis' does.

Took from Ganon boards, I think it works better than what we have now, maybe merge the two. Considering that 7-3 isn't necessarily unwinnable. and IIRC DK vs D3 is 1-9

EDIT:

Just re-read over the one we have. I think we just need to change "Anything past 30-70" to something a little more sugar-coated.

 

[teluoborg]

Well the actual one is still true, "anything past 30-70" is unwinnable.
Now Falcon isn't Ganon.
Ganon is so bad that he deserves a special chart so his boards can debate at which degree he gets ***** by each character.

I don't think Falcon has more than 4 or 5 matchup that go under the 30-70 line.

As I see it the vast majority of Falcon's matchups is 35-65 or 30-70, so we should focus on this instead of a range that only concerns MK, Oli, Falco and ICs.

 

[lordhelmet]

Index is looking hot, good **** Darky!

 

[Darky-Sama]

I would try to make it look better, but you all know I'm a lazy ****. lol. Maybe one of these days I'll get into drugs, shoot up some heroine, take some meds and get all hyper and want to organize everything.

 

[lordhelmet]

I would try to make it look better, but you all know I'm a lazy ****. lol. Maybe one of these days I'll get into drugs, shoot up some heroine, take some meds and get all hyper and want to organize everything.

O h...

 

[Ramzeh]

I would try to make it look better, but you all know I'm a lazy ****. lol. Maybe one of these days I'll get into drugs, shoot up some heroine, take some meds and get all hyper and want to organize everything.

growin up so quick

 

[Greward]

falcon counters pit

lion beats cp2

 

[lordhelmet]

falcon counters pit

lion beats cp2

Is that tourney today? What's CP2 ranked :O?

The MU is 40-60 Pit IMO.

 

[Greward]

cp2 is ranked first in spain and lion is ranked 17th
cp2 has never lost a tourney set before this
the tourney was one week ago

 

[lordhelmet]

Fml I got trolled by a Spanish guy

 

[Greward]

lion has never quitted or been ranked 3rd. his first rank where 23rd, even though he placed 3rd in a regional tourney

 

[Zeallyx]

Succesful troll is succesful

 

[lordhelmet]

What Ramz said

 

[Placebo Effect]

I would try to make it look better, but you all know I'm a lazy ****. lol. Maybe one of these days I'll get into drugs, shoot up some heroine, take some meds and get all hyper and want to organize everything.

 

[Ramzeh]

What Ramz said

 

[Darky-Sama]

On a serious note, lets stop spamming the Index Thread until it's needed again. lmao

 

[DarkRaptor]

This is amazing.
Good **** Darky!

 

[Z1GMA]

MK & IC both 25:75. Really?