The eternal debate: How will Brawl be controlled? CONTROLLER DISCUSSION HERE

[Black/Light]

. . . .My goodness, is WD THAT important to some people? If you base so much focus on one lil glitch in the game than I wouldn't think that your a true smash fan seeing as you should love the game (much like with a person) for what it really, truely is anthan look at and focus on the tiny things. . . .not the other way around.

Im going to use the Wiimote and Num Ch. I plan on getting the GC controls but I think I will like the Wiimote/Num more because it would actually feel more "this gen" too me that way.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

. . . .My goodness, is WD THAT important to some people? If you base so much focus on one lil glitch in the game than I wouldn't think that your a true smash fan seeing as you should love the game (much like with a person) for what it really, truely is anthan look at and focus on the tiny things. . . .not the other way around.

It's not a glitch, first off. Secondly I've been playing smash since it came out and I play over 10 hours a week, consistently. Im prettttty sure I'm a true smash fan.

 

[psicicle]

wavedash seems to be in brawl:http://wii.gamespy.com/articles/795/795073p1.html

in the meta knight part (0:50) he does some sort of quick dodge to get behind kirby, and follows it with an attack that seems too quick for a standard roll. He also appears not to have invincibility frames.

 

[TaurToph]

Oh god... yes it's a wavedash i'm 99% sure...

 

[Super Smash Master]

Why does it matter? Play the game like it was meant to be played. Not with stupid glitches.

 

[psicicle]

Why does it matter? Play the game like it was meant to be played. Not with stupid glitches.

I have an idea. Let's play the game how WE want to play. Not with stupid assumptions about how it was meant to be played.

 

[TaurToph]

Hey look that.

Pit's dash was too fast that i couldn't get more images of it.

 

[GreenMamba]

Hey, look at that, dodge rolls. Whoopde doo.

 

[nesstee]

It not a dodge roll and its not wavedash, notice how the characters only do it backwards.. Instead its probably a mechanic that sakurai put in to replace WD so as to wrestle control of HIS game back from the people who explioted his errors.

 

[fluffy]

This may be recent....
I think it's confirmed on smashbros.....that you can use the
>wii-remote (on side)
>wii-remote + nunchuk
>classic controller
>gamecube controller

to play the game.

 

[TaurToph]

No way it's a dodge rool, blinda.
Or it's a wavedash or it's (probably), like nesstee said, a mechanic put to replace it.

It seems fastest and easier than WD (and of course veeeery fastest than dodge).

 

[psicicle]

it seems similar in appearance to the mechanic in castlevania; you could press the L trigger to do a backwards dash (facing to the right)

distance-wise did it vary? If it does, then we may have a wavedash replacement. If it doesn't, then I'd say it is more like the dodge roll.

 

[AMPMClock]

http://www.amazon.com/Gamecube-Wave...3?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1181401986&sr=1-16

Done

 

[Fawriel]

Why wouldn't it be a roll? Those seem to me just like backward rolls like Mewtwo's, except faster.
And if you think they attack too quickly afterwards.. play against a level 9 computer.

 

[The_Famous_SK]

The A button on the wiimote-only will probably jump or shield or grab. I doubt it will be the actual attack button, I'd give that to either 1 or 2.

 

[Volrec]

That's not a bloody wavedash. There is no moving off the gronud during a wavedash, and it's only one frame(their jumping animation)

 

[Jesi]

wasn't there talk somewhere on the site about being able to jump backwards with items in hand or something? that would indicate that moving backwards probably has more functionality in this one, giving the character just in general more moveability ...which is what it looks like from those frames..just a quick "jump/dash" backwards... maybe not a wd tho...hmmmm

can't wait to find out! :D

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Why does it matter? Play the game like it was meant to be played. Not with stupid glitches.

Go get molested in several ways by a large bear. Please. You probably couldn't beat my friend's little sister.

By the way, shes 12 and she can consistently SHFFL wavedash, L cancel, JC grab, Float cancel ****... she can do almost all of the major techs in this game.

So there you have it, ''advanced'' techs, are neither ''pro'' nor difficult to do if a child can do them and compete with her 19 year old brother and his friends. It took her about a month of practice before she could DO the techs, and shes been working on the application ever since. Shes not a bad peach at all

''Stupid glitches''

****ing moron. Its not even a glitch to begin with.

 

[Vali]

Erm technically it is a bug/glitch, since it's an unintended byproduct of the coding. Wavedashing is technically abusing a piece of coding for other than it's intentional purpose which is proved since that WD wasn't discovered by the Smash team as far as I know. With the what looks like new and improved rolls which are very fast and seem to have very little lag, the inclusion of WDing may not be so necessary in Brawl but then again they might intentionally program it as part of the coding.

I doubt a bear would know basic groping techniques either.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Erm technically it is a bug/glitch, since it's an unintended byproduct of the coding. Wavedashing is technically abusing a piece of coding for other than it's intentional purpose which is proved since that WD wasn't discovered by the Smash team as far as I know. With the what looks like new and improved rolls which are very fast and seem to have very little lag, the inclusion of WDing may not be so necessary in Brawl but then again they might intentionally program it as part of the coding.

I doubt a bear would know basic groping techniques either.

Yes, but they new about wavelanding, hence ''landfallspecial'' being labeled as such in debug mode.

They knew the effects of airdodging into the ground and left them in the game, they werent certain how game changing it was but they did and it was the best idea ever because melee without wavedashing would be like ice cream with no cone.

New and improved rolls!!111!111!!! aren't going to replace wavedashing.

#1 Wavedashing NEVER MADE YOU INVINCIBLE.
#2 Wavedashing allowed you to attack immediatly, at any point of the wavedash, ROLLS are a set distance, and they mostly suck ***.
#3 you could edgehog out of a wavedash, you wont be able to out of a roll.

among billions of other things. its gonna like ruin my entire .. week, month.. year? If theres no WDing in Brawl

there is ABSOLUTLY, NO REASON for them to take it out. The only people it would please would be people who are stupid ****ing scrub pieces of *** who probably couldnt do math at a 2nd grade level, complaining that the wavedash is ''cheap'' as if its some blessed auto win strategy.

You're not even friggin invincible while you WD, YOU'RE JUST MOVING LEFT TO RIGHT, ITS JUST MOVEMENT FOR CHRISTS SAKE.

ARGH! *kills every scrub on the planet with laser vision*

 

[Vali]

There's no need to get so angry you know, it's all love and cuddles on the internet. I've never seen any debug thing or proof that it was intended, if you'd love to show me a link and such that'd be fine. Also the question would be if the debug was on a PAL or NTSC version since I think they were aware of it by the PAL release (where changes were made) and there may very well have been some programming put in place.

Also evidence of your need to chill was that I never said that the alterations to the roll were ever going to attempt to replace what wavedashing was. I simply said that it's inclusion might not be as fundamental to Brawl, since it's obviously advanced techniques like wavedashing that speed up the gameplay and allow people to do things on a professional level.

Concerns with taking it out is that Brawl is predominantly a casual game, and they aren't building Brawl with the pro community specifically in mind. Sakurai has stated that Melee was too fast or something and that the speed would be moderated and he also said that Brawl would probably be slightly simpler than Melee. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Going on that information we may very well see some advanced techniques made easier to perform, or a glitch like wavedashing taken out.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

There's no need to get so angry you know, it's all love and cuddles on the internet. I've never seen any debug thing or proof that it was intended, if you'd love to show me a link and such that'd be fine. Also the question would be if the debug was on a PAL or NTSC version since I think they were aware of it by the PAL release (where changes were made) and there may very well have been some programming put in place.

Also evidence of your need to chill was that I never said that the alterations to the roll were ever going to attempt to replace what wavedashing was. I simply said that it's inclusion might not be as fundamental to Brawl, since it's obviously advanced techniques like wavedashing that speed up the gameplay and allow people to do things on a professional level.

Concerns with taking it out is that Brawl is predominantly a casual game, and they aren't building Brawl with the pro community specifically in mind. Sakurai has stated that Melee was too fast or something and that the speed would be moderated and he also said that Brawl would probably be slightly simpler than Melee. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Going on that information we may very well see some advanced techniques made easier to perform, or a glitch like wavedashing taken out.

Sorry for the anger in my reply. I swear it was not intended at you, but at scrubs in general.

Id really like to kill a scrub...

Anyhow, wavedashing isnt a glitch, you should stop thinking that.

And from the sounds of it, if Sakurai really said that Melee was too fast and complicated and that Brawl would be simpler and slower, well then I can only conclude that Brawl will suck.

Whatever, I'll always have melee, nubs can have brawl.

 

[Vali]

Ah it's no problem, I've come to see that you have to deal with a lot of Wavedash hate. Really though until I see some conclusive proof that it was actually known and possibly intended from the first retail release Melee, I'll continue to call it a glitch =].

I find people's views about the future quite interesting. I mean was SSB64 really bad because it didn't have wavedashing, shorthopping etc.? No, it was perfectly fine and great fun to play. Hypothetically speaking, what if wavedashing had never existed? Would Melee have sucked to play? Of course not, there would have nothing to discover and a completely different set of advanced tactics and strategies would have arisen and Melee still would've been the best thing since sliced bread.

So if Brawl doesn't have wavedashing, tactics and strategies will adapt and instead of it "sucking" it'll be just another way to play. Infact if the speed is moderated and some advance techniques removed/altered or replaced then entirely new strategies for Brawl will come about and the game will feel far from being Melee 2.0. It'll still be a fantastic game, it just won't play exactly the same as Melee and I think saying Brawl will plain and simple suck just because it's slower is pretty extreme, it'll just be different.

Would you really sacrifice a potentially huge, awesome roster filled with new characters, more modes/stages, better graphics/sound and online play just because you would want Brawl to retain the exact physics engine? It's the same comparison to solely playing SSB64 and shunning Melee just because it was different, but even that's less extreme.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I find people's views about the future quite interesting. I mean was SSB64 really bad because it didn't have wavedashing, shorthopping etc.?

There was shorthopping in ssb64. There's also DI, Cancelling, Fast falling, Ledge DI, and a bunch of other advanced techs not visibile at first glance. But ya short hopping was always there, just a heads up

Hypothetically speaking, what if wavedashing had never existed? Would Melee have sucked to play? Of course not, there would have nothing to discover and a completely different set of advanced tactics and strategies would have arisen and Melee still would've been the best thing since sliced bread.

Honnestly without it Id never have joined the tournament scene and the game would suck for me. The game would still be huge and have a great community but I nor my friends would be a part of it without the Wavedash.

So if Brawl doesn't have wavedashing, tactics and strategies will adapt and instead of it "sucking" it'll be just another way to play. Infact if the speed is moderated and some advance techniques removed/altered or replaced then entirely new strategies for Brawl will come about and the game will feel far from being Melee 2.0. It'll still be a fantastic game, it just won't play exactly the same as Melee and I think saying Brawl will plain and simple suck just because it's slower is pretty extreme, it'll just be different.

Like ive said before I admire your and other peoples optomism. But I don't feel the same way at all.. I dont want my favorite game watered down, I mean it got faster and more complicated from ssb64 to SSBM, so why not keep that trend going rather than watering the game down so noobs can enjoy themselves? boo to that.

Would you really sacrifice a potentially huge, awesome roster filled with new characters, more modes/stages, better graphics/sound and online play just because you would want Brawl to retain the exact physics engine?

wouldnt want it to not exist as so many people will love it. But I will -not- play it if they remove existing techniques.. Something they DIDNT do from ssb64 to melee.

 

[Vali]

There was shorthopping in ssb64. There's also DI, Cancelling, Fast falling, Ledge DI, and a bunch of other advanced techs not visibile at first glance. But ya short hopping was always there, just a heads up

Ah, my ignorance shines through ^^. Knew there was DI/Fast falling etc., but it's not like I've played SSB64 in over 6 years or so .

Honestly without it Id never have joined the tournament scene and the game would suck for me. The game would still be huge and have a great community but I nor my friends would be a part of it without the Wavedash.

So wavedashing was the only reason you started playing at the advanced level? To be honest I think you're looking at it from the way most people look at hindsight/parallel realities which is in respect to what we currently know. If there was still a bunch of advanced techniques, strategies and the like that didn't have anything to do with wavedashing, people wouldn't have known anything different. The game would've been slower yes and some combos wouldn't exist, but no-one would know anything different. I can see where your devotion to wavedashing comes from though if it really meant that much to you.

Like ive said before I admire your and other peoples optmism. But I don't feel the same way at all.. I dont want my favorite game watered down, I mean it got faster and more complicated from ssb64 to SSBM, so why not keep that trend going rather than watering the game down so noobs can enjoy themselves? boo to that.

First and foremost Nintendo is a company that's aiming to deliver a thoroughly enjoyable experience for everyone. The hardcore crowd get a game with fantastic levels of depth and the casuals get an easy to pick up and play frantic brawler. I have every confidence in Sakurai that he will deliver the goods in Brawl, and while the adjustment from Melee to Brawl will be a bit odd for some people more than others, I honestly believe it'll be better than Melee in every way.

wouldnt want it to not exist as so many people will love it. But I will -not- play it if they remove existing techniques.. Something they DIDNT do from ssb64 to melee.

Again it comes down to if WDing was intentional or not. If they purposely programmed a fundamental (to pros) technique in the game and then removed it for Brawl that'd be wrong. However if WDing was just a mistake, they're fully justified in removing it since it would just be a glitch in the game. The huge part of the Smash Bros. community that is casual don't benefit from being creamed online by people abusing a glitch in the programming.

However IF it was programmed intentionally for Brawl, simplified probably so that it's more accessible and there was some mention of it in an advanced tutorial then I can see it returning. That way it wouldn't be treated like a bug (it's something you have to go look up and learn about, not something that can be discovered in the same way SHFFLing can) and it's a win-win situation. While I know you probably won't like the prospect of it being made easier to do, it's the only way I can see it returning in a simplified Smash Bros. since it'd still be difficult enough to require practice to do, would still be able to be taken to a further level with mindgames and correct usage but on the other hand it wouldn't alienate 75%+ of the people that play Smash.

 

[Fawriel]

Did someone already bring up the point of how Nintendo learned of a glitch in a Mario Kart game called "Snaking" and then proceeded to make it an official technique in the next game or something like that?
Maybe wavedashing will not only be in Brawl, but will have the added effect of not making some matches very painful on the ears. I'm looking at you, Luigi. "Ya-ya-hoo-ya-ya-ya-hoo..."

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

First and foremost Nintendo is a company that's aiming to deliver a thoroughly enjoyable experience for everyone

That sucks. I hate nintendo for that. Capcom makes games with the intentio of causing the people playing them to throw things at the wall because of the difficulty.

And I love every minute of a capcom game.

Best example :

Breath of Fire 5 for ps2 (an RPG)

You need a special token to save. Theyre extremly rare, you cant buy them, theres maybe... 12 or so in the game, and the game took me.. 60 hours to beat.

You can make a ''temporary save'' so yuo can turn the game off, but as soon as you load the save file, it gets erased, and theres some system they put in specifically so you couldnt copy your temp saves onto another memory card.. I tried to do it.

So if you died, you started back at your last ''permanent save'' and given the rarity of save tokens, that usually implied you lost 12 hours of progress or more.

See, thats good gaming. No newb would get past the first 2 hours of breath of fire 5. Brawl should be like that. But less extreme, but it should have an insane ammount of techniques, increased speed, more characters, new combo systems

ANYTHING to make the game MORE complex, more difficult, more exciting, more of a challeng.

Not easier to pick up for pathetic noobs. If you cant play video games then pick up sewing like a little girl, im tired of this lets appeal to everyone attitude.

Back in the day on NES you were LUCKY if you could beat a game, now its like ''Oh lets not make games too hard, people wont like that''

Bull ****ing crap. Difficult games are what gamers thrive on, people who think smash should be watered down to include a larger audience are just trying to please everyone, whilst forgetting that games are for gamers, not for old people.

**** the Wii and its new philosophy. Props to Capcom for making the best games.

 

[Mr.GAW]

First, that thing Metaknight did was NOT A WAVEDASH. You are on the ground when you wavedash, not in the air.

Also, I would like to brag that I was right about all three control schemes being able to be used. Thank you.

 

[Vali]

First, that thing Metaknight did was NOT A WAVEDASH. You are on the ground when you wavedash, not in the air.

Also, I would like to brag that I was right about all three control schemes being able to be used. Thank you.

I don't think anyone seriously saw all 4 being used coming though. While you're on the subject of bragging, Sakurai said that if he was promoting one type of control scheme it'd be GC so I was right about that.

Games being sadistically hard for the sake of it aren't fun. Games should be challenging but being able to save only ever 5-12 hours is pointless. Breath of Fire 5 is it's name? 'Cause I could only find BoF:DQ on Ps2 (searching for reviews ;p) and if that's the case the gamespot review said it should only take you 20 hours, 10 if you know exactly what you're doing . Ever played FFIII on DS? While it's FF, and it's still pretty fun, compared to the refined gameplay of later FF's (VI->IX) it feels pretty dated.

 

[Mr.GAW]

Vali, there's a difference between promoting and suggesting, y'know.

Once again, nobody said the GC controller wouldn't be the best, I just said that the Wii Remote/ Nunchuck and CC were more likely to be used then the GC controller, but that doesn't matter now.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I don't think anyone seriously saw all 4 being used coming though. While you're on the subject of bragging, Sakurai said that if he was promoting one type of control scheme it'd be GC so I was right about that.

Games being sadistically hard for the sake of it aren't fun. Games should be challenging but being able to save only ever 5-12 hours is pointless. Breath of Fire 5 is it's name? 'Cause I could only find BoF:DQ on Ps2 (searching for reviews ;p) and if that's the case the gamespot review said it should only take you 20 hours, 10 if you know exactly what you're doing . Ever played FFIII on DS? While it's FF, and it's still pretty fun, compared to the refined gameplay of later FF's (VI->IX) it feels pretty dated.

ya breath of fire 5 is Dragon Quarter, its the 5th in the series.. the first 2 were on SNES and I love them both SOOO much, almost as much as Final fantasy 3 and Chrono Trigger.

It took me like 60 hours because I did the sidequest thing too, and I had to restart my game when I was at the end because my characters were ridiculously low level and I didnt do the level up trick..

Itll take 15 hours about if you read gamefaqs and find out how to do the level trick. If you dont do the level trick, youll NEVER beat the game.

Another aspect of that game that rules because its so capcom :

You can turn into a dragon (after a specific point about 20% into the game)

The dragon is REALLY powerful, can beat any boss in the game in a few hits, BUT every attack plus the transformation increases your dragon % guage.

Your dragon % guage also goes up 0.1% every few steps.

If your dragon guage reaches 100% at any point in the game, its game over. And there is NO way to lower the %

so you have to pick your transformations WISELY... so capcom.

Games being sadistically hard for the sake of it aren't fun.

They so are, they're the best games.

 

[psicicle]

Okay, just because it was not on the ground does not mean it is not a wavedash. I'm sure that if it remains in Brawl, it will have its own animation. This thing we saw could still have all the properties of a wavedash. We won't call it anything different just because it is off the ground. Ultimately, if the properties remain the same, I'm sure nobody will call it something other than a wavedash.

#507- What smash bros does is amazing- it makes it so that you can enjoy it at a low and a high level. There is no need to exclude the noobs in this game, in fact they make this game possible with their money. If brawl appeals to both noobs and gamers, then I'm fine, I'll have more people to ****.

 

[Mr.GAW]

psicicle, a wavedash is the sliding you do across the ground after airdodging INTO THE GROUND. If is not on the ground, it will not be called a wavedash, because it won't be acheived by airdodging into the ground. Simple as that.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

psicicle, a wavedash is the sliding you do across the ground after airdodging INTO THE GROUND. If is not on the ground, it will not be called a wavedash, because it won't be acheived by airdodging into the ground. Simple as that.

Quoted for Truth.

 

[psicicle]

It could be achieved through a mechanism different from the one in melee. Specifically, if the same button combination is pressed, it goes through a "wavedash" animation designed specifically for that button combination. Or maybe simply pressing the button for airdodging into the ground to achieve that animation.

 

[Conker1]

I agree 100% with what Vali said on the last page.

 

[Conker1]

Editing broken...

Especially the part about Wavedashing being a glitch. It just looks like one.

 

[Mr.GAW]

It could be achieved through a mechanism different from the one in melee. Specifically, if the same button combination is pressed, it goes through a "wavedash" animation designed specifically for that button combination.

But, why the hell would they do that when they could just let the game engine do it naturally? The timing would have to be set perfectly for each individual character, otherwise you wouldn't be able to just jump and airdodge. How would you shorten or lengthen your wavedashes? Elaborate please.

Or maybe simply pressing the button for airdodging into the ground to achieve that animation.

?Que?

Are you saying they would just have a button for wavedashing? Cause that would be wrong in so many ways I don't care to explain.

 

[TheBlackrose]

what i dont get is if there is a motion activated smash how will u charge them?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

what i dont get is if there is a motion activated smash how will u charge them?

I dont think any of the control methods will involve motion sensing, but thats just a hunch I have.

I think people would get hurt if smash was played by motion sensing... its dangerous.