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The Debate Hall Social Thread

Dre89

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How can pure logic be used to deduce deity when observation cannot?
This statement assumes that observation is necessary for truth, well at least observation of materiality.

The only way pure logic can deduce the existence of a deity is if it can conclude that a deity was necessary for the actuation of the universe.

The 'observation' is looking at the universe.

For example you can conclude through observation that all natural entities are complex and contingent. This leads alot of people to believe that the original being must be a higher being ie. that which is not natural and not contingent.

That's just one brief example.
 

RDK

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This statement assumes that observation is necessary for truth, well at least observation of materiality.

The only way pure logic can deduce the existence of a deity is if it can conclude that a deity was necessary for the actuation of the universe.

The 'observation' is looking at the universe.

For example you can conclude through observation that all natural entities are complex and contingent. This leads alot of people to believe that the original being must be a higher being ie. that which is not natural and not contingent.

That's just one brief example.
But not all natural entities are complex or contingent.

If all entities are complex then what does complex mean? What is simple? How is this determined?

This is where your argumentation fails. You start out by concluding that a deity was necessary for the actuation of the universe. A deity is no more necessary for the universe than it is for a snowflake or a tornado. Your premises are already proven in your mind before you go about "seeking truth". That's the exact opposite of what a scientist does and it's why nobody likes philosophers.
 

Dre89

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RDK I answered your question in the other thread, and stop assuming I don't have reasons for things when you haven't even read my earlier posts. Rvkevin quantum fields would have some of fo or structure. Assuming they're not just nothingness, they probay exist through the mediums of time and space correct? That would make them contingent. Anything that has a specific form is complex. What makes one being more complex than another is that it's form necessitates more prior truths, but all beings which necessitate prior truths are comlex.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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RDK I answered your question in the other thread, and stop assuming I don't have reasons for things when you haven't even read my earlier posts. Rvkevin quantum fields would have some of fo or structure. Assuming they're not just nothingness, they probay exist through the mediums of time and space correct? That would make them contingent. Anything that has a specific form is complex. What makes one being more complex than another is that it's form necessitates more prior truths, but all beings which necessitate prior truths are comlex.
So that means all zero dimensional points are complex? They have a "specific" form, I suppose.

Or what about sub-atomic particles, like quarks? Singularities?
 

Dre89

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Yes Bob anything that isn't responsible for all being is a complexity, because anything that isn't this ultimate being will always have a specific form. Any being will always have other beings (let's call them/it X in this case) it was not responsible for, either because it was actuated into existence after X, or because it's specific form does not allow for the actuation of X.

Essentially, the only thing that wouldn't be complex is a 'nothingness' because nothingness necessitates no prior truths, and has made no commitment to any specific form.

Now you may ask how I arrive at the existence of God, when I'ev just said the original being must be nothingness. Well we know being exists in the world, and because we know that a being cannot cause its own existence, being must have existed eternally.

Now the reason why I say the original being must be an intellect is because a perefect intellect which encomapsses all being is the only trait that can distinguish this being from non-existence (remember we know there must have always been existence) whilst retaining simplicty without commiting to any complexity.

Saying God is an intellect doesn't imply dualism at all. Any immaterial being would have to be an intellect, because any other trait would render it subjectt o physical laws, making it material, not immaterial.

To say that any theory which supposes that imamterialy precedes materiality is dualism is to say that any God theory in history is daulist, which is absurd.

By the way, I just want to let you guys know to not expect any responses from me and longer because I will no longer be posting here. I'm moving on to a philosophy-specific debate forum on another site where the majority is more learned in philosophy than any of us here, and I don't get scrutinised for every post I make (I was amazed that someone actually complimented the first post I ever made there, that's always a surprise after being here so long). It makes sense to move on because I'll get a better learning experience there than I do here (I don't mean that in a negative way).

So yeah just explaining why I won't be posting here anymore. Have fun debating.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Good luck and have fun at that philosophy site Dre. Nice debating you while it lasted. =)
Yeah, he disagreed with me on everything. It was a lot of fun. Granted his arguments were a little hard to read and understand, but it gave me something to think of, and I learnt plenty.

Kinda glad we let him in.

Anyway, Goodbye and have fun at that philosophy site.
 

rvkevin

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Do you mind sharing that forum? I would be interested in seeing if your argument is successful there or if it runs into the same objections.
 

Dre89

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www.philosophyforums.com

My username is exactly the same.

I've posted in two threads in the Philosophy of Religion boards- The Holy Trinity one (which is where I got the compliment) and the God's existence one.

At the Ethics boards I also posted in the Light and Dark Thread.

With regards to 'objections', of course I get them there, everyone does, but I don't come under the same scrutiny there as I do here, and they tend to undertsand my arguments better because pretty much everyone there is learned in philosophy than I am.
 

RDK

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The best way to learn is to argue with people who have different opinions than you.
 

Dre89

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They do have different opinions to me, there is just less of a communication barrier and they don't insult me for my opinion.

I'm still finding it ridiculously hard to leave this place, as corny as it sounds, I feel somewhat attached to the community here.
 

Dre89

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I'm finding it much harder to leave than I thought. But at the same time I'd feel like a douche if I didn't follow through with my word and leave.

The confusing thing is for me is whether I am actually liked hear or not. I understand people enjoy debating me because I am the main source of opposition but I'm unsure as to whether my debating style is actually respected or not.

As strange as it sounds, I've actually grown accustom to all the scrutiny I get, it feels weird now not to cop it when I post.

Everytime I try leave this place I can't seem to bring myself to do it. What do you guys think, do I sound like a douche if I don't leave after saying I would?
 

thegreatkazoo

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Everytime I try leave this place I can't seem to bring myself to do it. What do you guys think, do I sound like a douche if I don't leave after saying I would?
Leave.

You've said around three times that you would leave because we're all out to get you or something.

Man up and follow through on your word.

And have fun on that other site.
 

blazedaces

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I'm finding it much harder to leave than I thought. But at the same time I'd feel like a douche if I didn't follow through with my word and leave.

The confusing thing is for me is whether I am actually liked hear or not. I understand people enjoy debating me because I am the main source of opposition but I'm unsure as to whether my debating style is actually respected or not.

As strange as it sounds, I've actually grown accustom to all the scrutiny I get, it feels weird now not to cop it when I post.

Everytime I try leave this place I can't seem to bring myself to do it. What do you guys think, do I sound like a douche if I don't leave after saying I would?
Leave.

You've said around three times that you would leave because we're all out to get you or something.

Man up and follow through on your word.

And have fun on that other site.
I disagree. Stay! Who cares what you said?

-blazed
 

Sieguest

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I'm finding it much harder to leave than I thought. But at the same time I'd feel like a douche if I didn't follow through with my word and leave.
lmao, habits. And nah, don't feel like a douche. We'll respect your choice, no matter what it is.

The confusing thing is for me is whether I am actually liked hear or not. I understand people enjoy debating me because I am the main source of opposition but I'm unsure as to whether my debating style is actually respected or not.
You're liked, and people enjoy debating you, you bring activity to the boards. Your debating style just tends to confuse people a lot. It may just be because we're not as learned in philosophy as you are, but I feel it falls a bit on both sides. We should adapt more to you, as you should adapt more to us. It'd make debates smoother. And as I've said times before, arguing philosophy against other things outside of it is kind of hard. For the existence of objective truths. Philosophy holds natural law as an undeniable truth am I right. But when faced with the opposition that the definition of natural that it provides is merely just a connotative definition of the word. Then it conflicts, on the linguistic side, the fact that the "natural" that is put forward in natural law, is a connotative definition is true, but in the philosophy realm, that assertion is false, because the definition of natural in the realm of philosophy is in fact what is entailed by natural law. And since neither sides wants to admit that they're wrong, because in their respective rights, they are correct. Scrutiny of the oppositions ideas comes up. It just so happens that we're more inclined to do so than you, in most cases.

dang it, I ended up putting a lot more there than I intended.


As strange as it sounds, I've actually grown accustom to all the scrutiny I get, it feels weird now not to cop it when I post.
This is when you know it's getting bad. lol
Everytime I try leave this place I can't seem to bring myself to do it. What do you guys think, do I sound like a douche if I don't leave after saying I would?[/QUOTE]
You should stay in my opinion. Provides for a lot more activity and if we can somehow dissolve the barrier between the two realms of knowledge we all bring to the debate, it'd be a lot smoother.
Leave.

You've said around three times that you would leave because we're all out to get you or something.

Man up and follow through on your word.

And have fun on that other site.
Just like you've said multiple times that you were coming up with this immense post that was going to prove that Dre. was posting in a fashion much like intelligent trolling unfit for the debate hall?

Man up and go through with what you say.
 

Dre89

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Leave.

You've said around three times that you would leave because we're all out to get you or something.

Man up and follow through on your word.

And have fun on that other site.
I've only considered leaving twice.

The first time was because you were trying to get rid of me, so I thought if someone is really going to try that hard to ostracise me I'll save him the trouble. I also thought that if Kazoo really wants me gone that bad, alot of other people must want me gone too, and I didn't want to slow down productivity in the Hall. What made me say was that people were PMing me asking me to stay.

This second time has nothing to do with anyone else here, I just wanted to leave because I thought the other forum would rpovide a better learning experience. I just didn't realise how hard it would be to leave.

Neither time had anything to do with the scuritiny I get. The only reason why I complain about it is because it shouldn't be tolerated in a debate hall and it slows down productivity, the insults don't affect me personally.

Kazoo and to all my criticis I just have one question for you- Plenty of people here such as Naci, Rvkevin, Bob, Sucumbio, Mewter, Blazedaces etc are civil enough to respect my arguments and conduct a productive debate with me, attacking my arguments in the propper manner, rater than attacking me. If these people can do this, with little complaint about me, why can't you? Are you implying that all these people are stupid for not criticising me as much as you do?
 

AltF4

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Oh, please, Dre. If you are becoming upset to the point of wanting to not debate... then don't debate. Nobody is twisting your arm. Nobody who announces their departure is ever actually leaving. Those who actually leave just do so.

That said, you shouldn't leave. I've had far less civil debates with others in here than you. Everything is fine. If you feel ganged up on, then don't reply to everyone. You can take care of it with a single sentence:

"I haven't enough time to properly respond to everyone, so I will do so only to those I find exceptionally worthy" or some such thing.
 

KrazyGlue

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Dre, don't let other people's reactions make the decision for you. If you want to stay, then stay. If you want to leave, then leave. It doesn't have to be black or white either; you can just come in every once in a while. It matters a lot less to us than it does to you, so do what you want, not what we want.
 

Dre89

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Oh, please, Dre. If you are becoming upset to the point of wanting to not debate... then don't debate. Nobody is twisting your arm.
Did you not read what I just said? I'm not 'upset' about people insulting me, I copped far worse in person, it doesn't bother me that much. I also know I'll cop alot of stick in the future, so this is good conditioning. I just think it's disruptive to the debate hall. I only want it gone for the sake of the productivity of the forum.

Nobody who announces their departure is ever actually leaving. Those who actually leave just do so.
If I wasn't in the middle of a debate I would have just left. The reason why I told you guys I was leaving was so that you knew why I wasn't responding anymore, and so the thread could move onto a debate without my arguments in it. I kept posting because you were criticising my argument, and I have too much pride (yes I know that's bad) to leave your criticisms unanswered because I feel it does a disservice to my argument.

That said, you shouldn't leave. I've had far less civil debates with others in here than you. Everything is fine. If you feel ganged up on, then don't reply to everyone. You can take care of it with a single sentence:
Just so I make this clear, it doesn't upset me that people gang up on me. When you believe in a God and not religion, you cop stick form both atheist and theistic circles, I've never been in an argument where I've had the numerical advantage, so being ganged up on doesn't upset me. It's just that the mob mentality shouldn't be applied in a debate, it hinders productivity.

You'd get far more out of me as a debater, as well as other people, if we just had one-on-one debates.

"I haven't enough time to properly respond to everyone, so I will do so only to those I find exceptionally worthy" or some such thing.
That's what I've started doing. I always make your posts a priority since we kinda established an individual debate between us, and you're supposed to be one of/if not the top debater here so I wanted to see how far I could match you.
 

thegreatkazoo

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Just like you've said multiple times that you were coming up with this immense post that was going to prove that Dre. was posting in a fashion much like intelligent trolling unfit for the debate hall?

Man up and go through with what you say.
Already did that.

Check the Homosexuality thread often? Didn't think so...

Oh, please, Dre. If you are becoming upset to the point of wanting to not debate... then don't debate. Nobody is twisting your arm. Nobody who announces their departure is ever actually leaving. Those who actually leave just do so.

That said, you shouldn't leave. I've had far less civil debates with others in here than you. Everything is fine. If you feel ganged up on, then don't reply to everyone. You can take care of it with a single sentence:

"I haven't enough time to properly respond to everyone, so I will do so only to those I find exceptionally worthy" or some such thing.
Alt-F4 often says what I want to, but so much better.

Still gonna stand on my line though--you should leave Dre. It's not because I have anything against you (you're not a Hooblah, Shade, or GOD!, so I count my blessings. ;)), but it is important I feel to be a man of your word in all facets in life.
 

thegreatkazoo

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In fact I do, I wouldn't really call this that huge post that parallels Dre. to all the past trolls of the DH that you made it out to be.
I referenced his posts and the posts in questions four times.

Now, you may consider that not to be sufficient in evidence. Some people may consider it so. It's up for debate--which is what we're doing here, no?
 

Dre89

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Alt-F4 often says what I want to, but so much better.
Alt is saying I should leave if I am being upset about the scrutiny I cop (which I'm not).

You were telling me to leave to uphold my word. They were two completely different things.
 

Sieguest

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I referenced his posts and the posts in questions four times.

Now, you may consider that not to be sufficient in evidence. Some people may consider it so. It's up for debate--which is what we're doing here, no?
True. I wouldn't really consider it sufficient evidence, as you only referenced one of two people whom you said you would parallel Dre.'s arguments to.
This is the post in which you say that you're doing a lot of research and that the post is going to "big."
This is your initial accusation, you reference two people. Yet you only attempted to make a parallel with only two posts of one those posters.

With those in mind, I think your evidence definitely falls short of your accusation. Especially one that was supposedly going to be backed by a considerable amount of research and be a pretty big post.
 

Dre89

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Kazoo just curious, if you considered my anti-homsoexuality arguments to be bad or trolling, could you then tell me some anti-homosexuality arguments that would consider good (for debate's purpose I mean)?

I sincerely hope you don't just assume that anti-homosexuality= trolling/ bad argument. Because in that case, you would be attacking the position itself, not the arguments used to defend it.

So I'd like for you to show me some anti-homoseuxality arguments you consider good, so that I know you're not just being bias against something that conflicts with your beliefs.
 

thegreatkazoo

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You were telling me to leave to uphold my word. They were two completely different things.
Glad someone is tuning in.

True. I wouldn't really consider it sufficient evidence, as you only referenced one of two people whom you said you would parallel Dre.'s arguments to.
This is the post in which you say that you're doing a lot of research and that the post is going to "big."
This is your initial accusation, you reference two people. Yet you only attempted to make a parallel with only two posts of one those posters.

With those in mind, I think your evidence definitely falls short of your accusation. Especially one that was supposedly going to be backed by a considerable amount of research and be a pretty big post.
Okay, I better go spend another six hours @ work.

(Seriously, I may go and do just this.)

Kazoo just curious, if you considered my anti-homsoexuality arguments to be bad or trolling, could you then tell me some anti-homosexuality arguments that would consider good (for debate's purpose I mean)?

I sincerely hope you don't just assume that anti-homosexuality= trolling/ bad argument. Because in that case, you would be attacking the position itself, not the arguments used to defend it.

So I'd like for you to show me some anti-homoseuxality arguments you consider good, so that I know you're not just being bias against something that conflicts with your beliefs.
Show scientific, peer-reviewed evidence published in a well respected journal that homosexuality is a choice.

Or, evidence contrary to the links shown that shows an abundance of homosexuality in nature. Of course, you should aim for this evidence to be similar to the above sentence as well.

Proof, not metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
 

Dre89

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I never said homosexuality was a choice, where did you get that from?

This whole time you have trying to get rid of me you haven't even being reading my posts? Do you even know what my argument is?

By the way, this 'metaphysical mumbo jumbo' called morality is also what concluded we shouldn't be ****** kids but I guess that's garbage too right?

I love how the one person here who never debated me or reads my posts is the one moving for my ostracism. Criticism is only legitimate if you know me as a debater. Other people here are entitled to criticises me, you aren't.
 

RDK

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I think to make everything less confusing someone should volunteer to have a debate with Dre in a one-on-one thread. There's a lot of confusion going on because people are discussing a handful of different topics at once. And this way it'll be less of a dogpile.
 

rvkevin

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Kazoo just curious, if you considered my anti-homsoexuality arguments to be bad or trolling, could you then tell me some anti-homosexuality arguments that would consider good?.
Show scientific, peer-reviewed evidence published in a well respected journal that homosexuality is a choice.
I never said homosexuality was a choice, where did you get that from?
This is the type of thing that makes us question whether you pay any attention when posting. You ask him what he would consider to be a good argument, and then accuse him of misattributing it to you when it was never meant to be in the first place. Only white noise follows from there.
 

adumbrodeus

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I think to make everything less confusing someone should volunteer to have a debate with Dre in a one-on-one thread. There's a lot of confusion going on because people are discussing a handful of different topics at once. And this way it'll be less of a dogpile.
On it, haven't picked a topic yet, a little busy right now, I'll get back you you all soon.
 

Dre89

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This is the type of thing that makes us question whether you pay any attention when posting. You ask him what he would consider to be a good argument, and then accuse him of misattributing it to you when it was never meant to be in the first place. Only white noise follows from there.
Just looking at your post I realised my mistake now and I apologise for it. But when else have I done something like this to warrant a 'this is the type of thing that makes us question whether you pay attention when posting'?

Besides, saying that the only good anti-homsoexual argument is to prove it's a choice is like me saying the only time it would ever be rational to believe in God would be if He came down and directly informed us of His existence Himself, which is absurd.

What he's stated is merely something that would personally convince him, not something that constitutes a good argument for the sake of debating.

By saying the only good argument is to show peer-reviewed literature that shows homosexuality is a choice, which is impossible, because it isn't, he's saying that we shouldn't bother with the debate, because anyone who takes the anti-gay side automatically loses.

Not only that, but anyone who takes the anti-gay side, and doesn't prevent this peer-reviewed literature (which doesn't exist) is an objectively bad debater/troller, despite the clarity and depth of logic in the argument.

Can someone honsetly tell me that is a good attitude for a debate hall? That someone will label his opponent a bad debater/troll if that opponent fails to convert him to their position? The point of the debate hall is not to convert, that's a preach hall. It's not an automatic loss if you haven't convinced your opposition.

You're also assuming that the burden of proof is on me, in that if my argument is flawed, that somehow makes homsoexuality ok without requiring any justification. I can also say that if you fail to provide me peer-reviewed literature that procreation isn't the intention of sex you're a bad debater/troller.
 

rvkevin

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But when else have I done something like this to warrant a 'this is the type of thing that makes us question whether you pay attention when posting'?
"Your idea is no more plausible to me than saying the color blue created being, for they both represent the properties of material objects so to say that they are immaterial is nonsensical to me."

"But the colour blue does not encompass any other colour. All the colour blue can do is attribute blueness. It cannot actuate time, space, materiality, even other colours. Blueness has a limited capacity, a capacity that could not have actuated the current state of affairs in the world."

This to me, is a complete non-sequitor. Blueness cannot actuate time, space, or materiality, in which I say that in the same sense a mind can't actuate them either. To say that blueness can't be ultimate reality is to miss the point entirely and I can't imagine how stating that could represent a coherent response other than to think that you thought that I implied that blueness is plausibly ultimate reality, which is silly in of itself. And I remember other people saying how they questioned your responses as being off-base, but I don't feel like searching for their comments, perhaps they could shed some light on that.
By saying the only good argument is to show peer-reviewed literature that shows homosexuality is a choice, which is impossible, because it isn't, he's saying that we shouldn't bother with the debate, because anyone who takes the anti-gay side automatically loses.
Who said the only good argument? Just one that he would consider good. Also, it could be that fact that there are no good arguments against homosexuality because it is not immoral. If you consider a good argument something that is sound, then they would be good arguments, but they aren't valid because the premises won't reflect reality. In this sense, I can think of many sound arguments against homosexuality, but I can't think of a single sound and valid argument against it. If you consider a good argument to one that is valid and sound, then we wouldn't be having the debate since we all would be on your side, so such a question seems pointless. Also, notice how he added that your argument was in fact sound, just that it wasn't valid. I don't necessarily agree with this notion of morality, but to hold it against him that his notion of a good argument was wildly different than yours is mere puffery.
You're also assuming that the burden of proof is on me, in that if my argument is flawed, that somehow makes homosexuality ok without requiring any justification.
We could go back to the discussion to argue if homosexuality is morally neutral or good under other forms of moral theories. There was some reference to other moral theories, but I don't think you challenged them much so they fell by the wayside as your moral theory became the center of discussion. I don't think such an assumption was ever in place, only that we were dealing with one point, one moral theory, before continuing with another. I wouldn't mind arguing that homosexuality is morally neutral, I don't think such a task would be too hard to accomplish.
 

SuperBowser

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Dre., it is wrong to assume that because people cannot think of a good argument against homosexuality that they must be biased.

I must be biased because I don't believe pigs can fly. It's bizarre you even believe this. You are basically using an ad hominem.
 

Dre89

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"Your idea is no more plausible to me than saying the color blue created being, for they both represent the properties of material objects so to say that they are immaterial is nonsensical to me."

"But the colour blue does not encompass any other colour. All the colour blue can do is attribute blueness. It cannot actuate time, space, materiality, even other colours. Blueness has a limited capacity, a capacity that could not have actuated the current state of affairs in the world."

This to me, is a complete non-sequitor. Blueness cannot actuate time, space, or materiality, in which I say that in the same sense a mind can't actuate them either. To say that blueness can't be ultimate reality is to miss the point entirely and I can't imagine how stating that could represent a coherent response other than to think that you thought that I implied that blueness is plausibly ultimate reality, which is silly in of itself. And I remember other people saying how they questioned your responses as being off-base, but I don't feel like searching for their comments, perhaps they could shed some light on that.
I don't really want to get into this now, but my point was to show that's impossible that blueness could actuate all states of affairs, whereas it is possible for a mind to do so, I obviously never thought you believed blueness could be the ultimate reality.

Blueness has a specific form and necessitates a prior truth. The original being I'm proposing has no form, therefore it necessitates no prior truth. There is a huge difference between the two.


Who said the only good argument? Just one that he would consider good. Also, it could be that fact that there are no good arguments against homosexuality because it is not immoral.
That's an enormous assumption in itself. I could just say that same thing about pro-homosexuality, then refuse to listen to opposition and just label such opposition as bad debating/trolling.

If you consider a good argument something that is sound, then they would be good arguments, but they aren't valid because the premises won't reflect reality. In this sense, I can think of many sound arguments against homosexuality, but I can't think of a single sound and valid argument against it. If you consider a good argument to one that is valid and sound, then we wouldn't be having the debate since we all would be on your side, so such a question seems pointless. Also, notice how he added that your argument was in fact sound, just that it wasn't valid. I don't necessarily agree with this notion of morality, but to hold it against him that his notion of a good argument was wildly different than yours is mere puffery.We could go back to the discussion to argue if homosexuality is morally neutral or good under other forms of moral theories. There was some reference to other moral theories, but I don't think you challenged them much so they fell by the wayside as your moral theory became the center of discussion. I don't think such an assumption was ever in place, only that we were dealing with one point, one moral theory, before continuing with another. I wouldn't mind arguing that homosexuality is morally neutral, I don't think such a task would be too hard to accomplish.
In this case, what you are referring to as valid is an argument that will personally convince the opposition of a position. Essentially, if my my argument does not convince you, you will not consider it valid.

Therefore, what we are searching for in a debate hall is not validity in the sense you mean. Because basically then I can consider any argument that opposes mine not to be valid, and on this ground not be required to debate and justify my position.

For example, it became evident in the homosexuality thread that most people there just assumed the permissibility of homosexuality was self-evident simply because that is a modern western view, so whether they realise it or not they hold that view simpyl because their culture tells them too. If you don't have a detailed argument defending homosexuality (which no one had), then it's unlikely that anything else is the case other than what is mentioned in the previous sentence. Can I just claim automatic victory because everyone's conclusions were based on faulty premises?

It's not just a matter of presenting a sound argument either, because if both parties do so, the debate obviously doesn't just immediately end up in a draw. The point is to present the better argument, expressed through superior, structure, clarity, logic and in certain debates research.
 

rvkevin

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In this case, what you are referring to as valid is an argument that will personally convince the opposition of a position. Essentially, if my my argument does not convince you, you will not consider it valid.
That's an enormous assumption in itself. I'm dumbfounded that someone who prides himself of being well informed in philosophy doesn't know what a valid argument is. A valid argument is one where the premises are true. In this sense I can think of plenty of arguments where if such and such were true, then homosexual acts would be immoral, but those things aren't true, so those arguments are not valid. If new data were discovered to show otherwise, then, yes, those would be good arguments against homosexual acts, but at this point they are unconvincing since those arguments are invalid.
It's not just a matter of presenting a sound argument either, because if both parties do so, the debate obviously doesn't just immediately end up in a draw. The point is to present the better argument, expressed through superior, structure, clarity, logic and in certain debates research.
Agreed, soundness means nothing without validity, but how this merits saying is beyond me. The only two considerations for an argument are soundness and validity, if it doesn't have those two qualities, then it fails. Sure, it is nice for it to be presented in a way that it is clearly understandable, but that is not necessary to convince someone of its merits.
 

blazedaces

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For example, it became evident in the homosexuality thread that most people there just assumed the permissibility of homosexuality was self-evident simply because that is a modern western view, so whether they realise it or not they hold that view simpyl because their culture tells them too. If you don't have a detailed argument defending homosexuality (which no one had), then it's unlikely that anything else is the case other than what is mentioned in the previous sentence. Can I just claim automatic victory because everyone's conclusions were based on faulty premises?
Dre, what world do you live in? Why did Texas recently criminalize homosexuality? Why does the Defense of Marriage Act exist? Why did California pass proposition 8? Hello! The majority of the western world believes homosexuality is wrong! Our culture tells us so all the time!

You're biased because you come to the debate hall, which has a non-western view on the matter.

And by the way, just because I can't think of a good argument as to why the earth is flat, doesn't imply I'm biased against the position.

-blazed
 
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