The Debate Hall Social Thread

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

I understand your points about people being ignorant of public issues. This is the main flaw I find with democracy. The idea that the public should decide what is the best course of a action for a nation is in some sense flawed. After all, that is the reason, argumentum ad populum is a fallacy. The idea that the public should decide what's the best course of relies on the public being well-educated and reasonably intelligent on political issues. This is unfortunately, not the case.

Another problem I have with the idea of democracy, is that voters are often impressionable, as Sucumbio has already stated. I don't think they bother reading through important pieces of legislation, and the track records of candidates. Basically, they don't make informed decisions on who to vote for, because they're lazy. I'm not really that much better....

Then after that we have the media trying to influence the impressionable voters to support their vested interests. To make matters worse, politicians are sometimes outright liars. This results in the waters becoming very murky indeed.

The two party system seems to annoy me as well, it's either X or Y, and honestly, this doesn't represent most voters properly. In fact, this encourages voter apathy, something that exacerbates the issues of laziness.

Basically the system in the USA seems to be troubled.

At the moment, I see a number of alternatives that aren't perfect either. Direct Democracy, Proportional Representation, Consensus Decision Making etc.

I get the general feeling that we could move this argument to the Proving Ground to stimulate debate. This would allow us to judge their capabilities, and possibly mentor them.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

Right, this place appears to be dying, what should we do? I'll do a write up soon about Democracy and hopefully, that'll stimulate some activity. As for you guys, we need to let some more people in.

 

[blazedaces]

Right, this place appears to be dying, what should we do? I'll do a write up soon about Democracy and hopefully, that'll stimulate some activity. As for you guys, we need to let some more people in.

I'm rather frustrated at the moment. I hate to be the one to say it, but we need to make some MAJOR changes. This place is not dying... it's ALREADY dead.

I propose we do something extreme. Whoever is in charge, I know CK was amazing and I love how much he helped the debate hall, but I want to UNDO the "debate hall archives". I want the proving grounds to be completely DESTROYED, I don't see the point for them AT ALL. Unless one person is in charge of constantly letting members in it just becomes the unofficial debate hall.

I don't think we want to go back to not screening members in the first place, but why not do what many of the people here have proposed? Regardless, I still think no screening is BETTER than what we have going on at the moment. I'd rather sacrifice letting in the bad eggs to have the slightest bit of activity.

I'll be honest. I don't even play smash as much these days. I don't browse the rest of these forums. I ONLY check on the debate hall... but there's nothing here. If no changes are made in the following week I'll be sending a PM to the three "official" moderators of the board, (it's still written at the bottom as CK, evil eye, and zero beat) asking them to take any of the actions I've mentioned.

I know it's radical, I know it's undying an extremely long lived process... but I think SOMETHING needs to be done. If I get no response (I doubt that)... well... we'll see. I'll probably either stop checking or just simply post in the proving grounds... which I don't like the idea of doing as it's technically supposed to not be allowed...

-blazed

 

[Aesir]

Proving grounds is great when we have activity in this room.

But blazed as a point I think the proving grounds does more harm than good these days.

 

[Sucumbio]

Recent Proving Grounds Posters:

Guest438
Super Smash Bros. Fan
Today
Werekill

Guest438 has been posting a lot, and most recently in the illegal downloads thread which Today started.

SSBFan has also been posting awhile, and has demonstrated their ability in a few different threads.

Werekill has popped in and out off and on, but has also posted at length in the downloads thread.

These 4 should be granted DH access.

The proving grounds is broken only because there's little to no follow up on it. People apply to it, get access, and then are plopped into it and left there. One's stay in the proving grounds should be limited to 2-3 weeks, max. More than that is a waste of time for all involved. We as DH members -should- have access to post in it not to hold debates, but to be providing feedback and support to those in it. If after 2-3 weeks in the PG you haven't been able to demonstrate you are DH material, you're basically just not trying. Practice making a thread or two, practice debating in others' threads... that's all you need. And it should not be months of that, just a couple weeks. That seems to be the stretch of time to weed out those who would not actually make good DH members.

/my 2 cents.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Guest438 has been putting forth a good effort. Seems to be good DH material.

Everyone else needs more time.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

Guest438 has been putting forth a good effort. Seems to be good DH material.

Everyone else needs more time.

Yeah, definitely Guest 438, he is pretty good, the others, I'm not sure of.

 

[Reaver197]

Do the admins or mods even check this place anymore?

Doesn't seem like it if they do.

Anyway, you all might as well just apply to get into the proving hall and debate there until an admin or mod finally does do something.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

We need to get rid of the proving grounds.

New members should be let in here on "probation," and whether or not they perform at an acceptable level will determine whether or not they stay in. If they want to reapply later, then that's fine. Also I wish the mods were more active here. I miss CK.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

We need to get rid of the proving grounds.

New members should be let in here on "probation," and whether or not they perform at an acceptable level will determine whether or not they stay in. If they want to reapply later, then that's fine. Also I wish the mods were more active here. I miss CK.

I agree, it'd bring more activity into the real debate hall.

 

[Faithkeeper]

Is there any way to address the polarization within the debate hall? (asking for ideas here) Last I was active here, the majority of posters were liberal and would most generally overwhelm the more conservative opposition. I can only assume this has not changed. If we got activity up I might post more, school is almost out and that would mean more free time. I'm more liberal than not these days, but I suppose I could read 1984 again if I wanted to change that a bit. :D

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I mean I know what you're saying, but we can't really change people's views at the drop of a hat. If we have more conservatives join, then great, but we can't really do anything about it now that I can think of.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Here's something interesting, to say the least:

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010...gle-black-women-in-prime-working-years-5.html

However, while white women in the prime working years of ages 36-49 have a median wealth of $42,600 (still only 61% of their white male counterparts), the median wealth for women of color is only $5.

And another study that came out today:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/national/article/RACE20_20100519-222204/345656/

This was true even at higher income levels, with middle-income whites seeing their wealth levels increase from $55,000 to $74,000, while high-income African-Americans saw their wealth decrease $7,000 in the period, to $18,000 in 2007.

 

[Mewter]

Dre. wanted me to bring to attention some of his concerns about the Debate Hall, so here they are.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10319541&postcount=473

 

[CRASHiC]

Could an intelligent debate about pornography be posted in the debate hall?

 

[blazedaces]

Could an intelligent debate about pornography be posted in the debate hall?

OMG YES! People might actually want to post...

-blazed

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Dre. wanted me to bring to attention some of his concerns about the Debate Hall, so here they are.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10319541&postcount=473

Is he insinuating that he isn't biased? You wouldn't be debating if you weren't biased one way or another.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

So looking back through Dre's PG posts, I don't see why he isn't in here. He's active and he has been active in the PG, more than most of us can say whether it's in here or in the PG. Although his debating style and ideas may be different from the rest of us, I don't see a problem with that. We need a change of pace in here. And anything we can do to stimulate this place should be done.

I also think our mods need to be more active in our discussions.

 

[Reaver197]

You guys should all just apply to be in the PG, and just simply post stuff there until the mods actually fix how this whole system works. There isn't much point sitting in here talking about who we should let in when we can't do anything about it anyway.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

What's up with the mods here? Have they completely forsaken this place? Zero Beat hasn't posted since February, and Evil Eye hasn't posted since last year. The mods here should, you know, moderate.

It's like the DH has completely fallen off of the map.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Moderate what?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This hellhole.

We need people let in, the PG should be eliminated, etc. We can't do anything about that, that should be the mods' jobs. At least say something, jeez.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm really not sure what the mods can do about the lack of interest in the DH. People only post in the PG to prove they can post well, and once they get here they stop posting because no one else does.

There are several places that offer similar discussion without the need for special permission to post, and there's really nothing that can be done about that.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm not talking about lack of interest.

The PG is not working.

Here's my alternative from the last page:

New members should be let in here on "probation," and whether or not they perform at an acceptable level will determine whether or not they stay in. If they want to reapply later, then that's fine.

That will eliminate the tedious process of posting, etc, and let people get in and debate against the actual debaters. If they aren't good enough, they get kicked out. It's a faster process and works just as well, if not better. It could also increase interest, since people will be able to get right into the action.

Also, the Debate Hall Archives are pointless, and should never have been implemented. Why not let people bump old discussions if they have something new to add? Anything to increase activity.

We have ideas, but without someone to go through with them, nothing will be done and this place will be doomed to being completely dead.



EDIT: People aren't being let in because the mods aren't being active. We've done our part: recommend people to be allowed in, and settle on the people we think deserve to be in. It's up to the mods to let them in, and that hasn't been happening.

People from the PG aren't happy, I'm obviously not happy, and I'm sure any other debaters who still care about this place aren't happy.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I'm not talking about lack of interest.

The PG is not working.

Here's my alternative from the last page:

That's how it used to be, and the Proving Ground was instituted because people felt that the "probation" system wasn't working either.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yes, I know. I was in the DH then, before I got purged.

If people would actually pay attention to the people being let in, evaluate them, and make their decisions, it would work.

We could let in a specific number of people at one time. Each person would be watched by the veteran debaters, and the moderators (hopefully). After a set period of time, the deserving people would be kept in, and the others would be purged. Then the next set would be let in.

That's my vision of how this place should work.

 

[blazedaces]

That's how it used to be, and the Proving Ground was instituted because people felt that the "probation" system wasn't working either.

I disagree that it wasn't working. CK created the proving grounds at the time because he thought that would be an appropriate solution to the problem of too many idiots posting in the DH... but it's overkill. Now we don't have idiots posting here... but we have almost no one posting at all.

The old system was better... I'm sorry. I want a mod to explain why the PG hasn't been demolished yet. The majority are asking for it... but nothing is being done. Who can I talk to about this?

-blazed

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

Basically, Dre decided to go on a little rant about perceived/real bias in the DH. I think he wants this to get more attention, so he wanted me to post it here, so I did.

"The DH is so biased it’s not funny.

People say that I use bad arguments or that my lack of scientific knowledge hinders my debating, but that just shows they haven’t understood what I’ve been arguing the whole time…

I don't argue against big bang, I would need scientific knowledge for that, I argue you need God for it. Whether you need God for big bang or not is not a scientific issue, it's a metaphysical one, and science has no proofs for any metaphysical issues, hence why atheism requires philosophical thought, not that of the scientific kind.

The only time I ever directly argued against big bang/evo was when I used my intelligent design from humanity argument in which I borrowed from Aristotle. The premises in that argument were based on falsifiable observations of nature, which is what science does. So this wasn't just metaphysical garbage that has no authority over the next metaphysical theory, I actually had falsifiable reasons for why my argument was right and others weren't.

So again, those who think my lack of scientific knowledge actually affected my debating either don’t understand what I was arguing, or don't really understand the metaphysics of the god debate.

Wit hregards to acceptance into the DH, It's not a matter of whether your atheist or Christian, it's matter of what you argue, not how good you are at it. You just have to argue from politics or science and you'll get in eventually.

Since I've debated nearly every currently active memeber, I know the debating abilities of alot of people, and for such an overly selective board, there's a very large gap in the levels of certain debaters. What I noticed though is that they all seem to argue the same general things, just at very different skill levels, but it doesn't seem to matter to the DH as long as you argue what they like.

This isn't just my opinion, I've had other people tell me this too, and I've had people tell me the DH is just ‘full of elitists who aren't really good at the debating’- their words not mine, I actually think the debating here is pretty good, but not good enough to justify the strict admission process.

Here's an example of how baised the DH is- when I first came here, I was told by CK not to use the cosmological argument, because it's 'laughable at best', and I was told by someone else not to argue against evolution because I would be wrong. That just shows how open the DH is to different ideas- the fact they told me not to take those paths shows they obviously wouldn't accept someone who does use them, otherwise they would be promoting people to argue different ideas.

It's pretty evident it's what you argue not how you argue, because considering I refence the greatest philosopher's in the western world, it's not as if I get dscriminated against because I don't debate well for an undergraduate, because I use the people who put those ideas across best.

So I'd like to see someone tell me the DH is not biased after that."

I personally just think this rant is just a whine about how his arguments aren't quite great hits with the rest of the Debate Hall. This may be due to the fact that the majority of his arguments are less than watertight, and have a number of rather large holes in them. However, he believes that it's mainly due to bias.

Please don't crucify me for this Mods...

 

[blazedaces]

Please don't crucify me for this Mods...

I don't think there are any mods reading this at the moment anyway...

-blazed

 

[Faithkeeper]

I think letting in Dre and starting a God thread could certainly get some action going. I might participate myself.

But I'm up for trying the whole no PG thing, I'd try most things to get this place moving again.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I disagree that it wasn't working. CK created the proving grounds at the time because he thought that would be an appropriate solution to the problem of too many idiots posting in the DH... but it's overkill. Now we don't have idiots posting here... but we have almost no one posting at all.

The old system was better... I'm sorry. I want a mod to explain why the PG hasn't been demolished yet. The majority are asking for it... but nothing is being done. Who can I talk to about this?

-blazed

Well considering that there aren't any active mods here, no one.

I'm up for going to Forum Support about this, I don't know about you guys.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'm up for going to Forum Support about this, I don't know about you guys.

Done.

10Dones.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I was going to wait for some input first, but that works too.

Good stuff.

 

[Sucumbio]

Moderate what?

You're kidding, right? This forum needs a moderator to update the daily PG/DH applications. It needs a mod who is proactive in the approval process. Whether the PG stays or goes, it's all for nothing if we don't have a mod clicking the button. And if we were to eliminate the PG, they'd be potentially even busier, because you'd be losing the buffer of having a separate forum in which to dwell in for several days-weeks (or months as it were.)

I was going to wait for some input first, but that works too.

Good stuff.

Yeah, I figured it might as well just be done, no time like the present. It's like you read my mind, it's creepy cause for a few days now I've been thinking "someone should just bring this to forum support."

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Just curious, what'd you say?

 

[blazedaces]

Thanks Sucumbio... someone needed to do it already. Glad it's done.

-blazed

 

[Sucumbio]

no sweat.

Well, in a nutshell I raised the concern that the DH is languishing badly and that it's due to 2 things, the lack of moderator participation, and the overall structure of the DH acceptance procedure. I suggested that we get new mods first and foremost. As stated before, there's no point to removing the PG and going with a different approach, if there still isn't a moderator to click "update" or whatever when its necessary. But as a secondary protocol I did mention the potential removal of the PG.

I have nothing against the current mods as people or as posters or even as moderators. I just think that this forum is unique in terms of structure (it's a duel forum, for one, and it has posting restrictions in both forums, two) and this uniqueness demands a more careful attention to moderating. I think if we're to be successful in stimulating participation, we need our moderator(s) to be active on a daily basis ensuring that PG/DH membership requests are handled ASAP, and that DH membership requests are proactively followed up upon (Zero did good in asking us what we thought of Bob T, but that was months ago, and several more PG hopefuls have come our way since, with no word, in fact if not for me mentioning Guest, methinks he'd have remained unmentioned, and yet still no confirmation from a mod.)

In a nutshell.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Alright, sounds good.

I think we should lay out a plan for what we want in here, we can all add to it and refine it. I mean it seems like you did something similar, but if we explicitly post something about our what we want to change (instead of them piecing it together from out posts/roacherman's Forum Disputes post), then I feel like it'll be more helpful if the higher ups are receptive to changing this place.

If you guys don't want to, it's cool. I'll put it together if you guys are up for it.

 

[Sucumbio]

I'll be happy so long as there's activity and an environment which fosters such. This is accomplished by increasing the number of members. To increase members, there needs to be moderator participation. Now beyond that, there's many ways it could go, and I honestly would have to think about it for a bit before making any suggestions, but I know that the first part is essential before anything else proceeds.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

What do you guys think of the Archives?

I've always thought they were pointless, I'd like to get rid of them if possible. What's wrong with bumping an old topic if there's new information to be added?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




So basically, number one concern is moderation. We can all control ourselves here, but we need moderation to watch over the admissions and the thoughts of the debaters. We don't need a moderator to infract people, we need someone to make sure this place is functioning at its best.

Once we have a moderator or moderators, first order of businesses is getting rid of the PG. We let in anyone who's currently active in the PG, and put them on probation. Watch over them, etc. I've outlined this earlier.

We see how things go from there, and then see what else we need to do to get this place its former glory back. But these first two things will (hopefully) springboard activity and get this place back its feet. After that, we can deal with things as they occur.