Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Xinc]

@ Xinc I was going to ask some of the Donkey Kong's for some matches so I can get some impressions of the matchup + Kong Cyclone. Would it be ok if I brought them to this thread as well?

Please do. Thanks!

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just a quick thing about weegee. I've been seeing more and more people using cyclone to chase and kill of the top. Not sure if this is something that should be factored into the MU or not.

 

[Z1GMA]

If Ganon can pop DK up slighty above the ground, DK's in big trouble, as he doesn't have any fast options infront or under him. This makes early juggles deadly.
DK's options after a missed Gerudo-tech are pretty good, so punishing his options on reaction is pretty hard - it's better to go for the garantueed Jab, or a strong read. It can also be hard to keep momentum if he techs a Choke, so again, you'll have to read.

Fair seems to always beat Spinning Kong off stage, as it goes around DK, hitting him in the head from above, when he's recovering horizontal.
If he's recovering low, Fair or a well timed Dair gets the job done.
DK wants to recover high Vs Ganon for these reasons, so Ftilt him to get him where you want him.

DK has better range, a much better grab-game, and is better in neutral, but we do more damage and are stronger with momentum.

50:50

 

[TheArabSamurai]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but during Kong Cyclone, there are frames where DK is vulnerable. I played against DKWill and I landed a DAIR on him during a Kong Cyclone. Even with customs on, Ganon does have a chance against Jankey Kong.

 

[Poxnixles]

You can also totally Flame Choke during Kong Cyclone's non-damaging frames and get carried off-stage by windbox momentum.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Is there a way for Ganon to escape DK´s bairstring offstage? Or do we have to accept getting like 4 bairs in our face?
I also think that the sourspot of our DA is pretty helpful here since DK lacks a fast aerial that hits in front of him. Most things have been mentioned already so yeah.
50:50 sounds pretty good, without Customs that is..

 

[Jerbear9]

friend of mine has a crazy good DK and as mentioned, his speed and reach advantage is killer on the ground. also his bair has almost no landing lag no matter how low it's used and nair has a great AC property. given the reach of his bair and ability to link his jab combo from the nair makes them better than our air spacing options imho. add everything else in and i'd say 45:55 in DK's favor. maybe even 40:60 since we don't have our easy tilt kill/combo setups from choke.

 

[Xinc]

Played several DKs online, so take what I say with a grain of salt. imo I feel with customs, Ganon can take it 55-45 at least. WDK allows for easier recovery (and can be used if you travel too far), while Dark Fist's super armor goes through DK's hair, so it's easier and safer to recover (and kill off the top/stagespike with the first hit). Although regular Wizkick is fine, too. But the crux of the matchup against DK is just to get him into the air. Sure, DK has better range and better neutral game, but he's pretty bad when you take him to an air battle (Guess he and Mac have something in common).

Fair is definitely a good move to punish DK with. The swinging arc is great for punishing not just jump, but dash attack. Up air is another great move to juggle DK. DK is basically helpless outside of air dodge when in the air, so up air is the key move to keep the juggles going.

Edgeguarding Dk is rather difficult though, so I highly recommend hitting him with very hard hitting moves or off the top. Which is difficult considering he's a pretty difficult character.

DK is an aggravating character, but Ganon can also make life difficult. It's probably even, but if it's skewed in any way, it should be Ganon's. He can stop DK's momentum with choke, and though he can only jab DK as a guarantee, if he reads a back roll, Ganon can get a stomp or another choke, while wizkick will hit roll away. Overall, both of these reads will lead to DK being sent into the air.
What DK has is better range and better grab game/range, thus making his neutral game easier to manage, but once Ganon gets through that, it could be lights out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think DK is that hard to edgeguard, but it depends on you reacting correctly to his movement in the air and not committing until you are certain which direction he's moving. My experience in default settings is you can reactively runoff U-air virtually any of his recovery options unless he recovers extremely high.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I've fought Will in a tournament, here's how it went; the first match I took with a 2 stock, he took the second, and the last match we were both at high percentages in which I inputed dsmash instead of a dash attack while trying to attack him in lag, which caused me the set.

I believe In a neutral setting, Ganon has a small advantage of 55.

In a custom setting Donkey Kong has a small advantage of 55.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Does DK's down B hit us during wizkick? If not then yay for us I guess!

 

[GwJ]

R.O.B.s are discussing the matchup, please contribute if you can: http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-19-ganondorf.401811/

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Does DK's down B hit us during wizkick? If not then yay for us I guess!

Yeah it hits us if we time it poorly

 

[Opana]

Something pretty cool I found oyt trying to add some new stuff to my game: we can full hop dair DK and D3(Maybe more didn't test much.) after they hit the ground due to how big they are and how high the bounce. Of course teching stops that but if they miss full hop fast fall dair could lead into some cool stuff. The combo I'm doing from 0% is Frame Cancelled shff Uair->Dash Attack(Strong Hit)->Full Hop Dair. Uair is pretty easy to cancel imo due to the hit box starting below you, and the timing for the dair isn't bad either imo.

 

[Smob]

Can we ask MU questions outside of this week's character of discussion? I don't really have a hard time against DK as Gannon but I cannot beat Villager.

Where are the weaknesses of this character? How do I get in from all the projectile spam? What are my kill moves I should be going for to eliminate this pest?

I can stop the projectiles with power shield, but I cannot gain any ground and if I do get close he just runs to the other side of the map and the process restarts.

 

[Sykkamorre]

DK's tornado punch can severely screw our recovery if used correctly. Always snap to the ledge as a precaution.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Just a quick thing about weegee. I've been seeing more and more people using cyclone to chase and kill of the top. Not sure if this is something that should be factored into the MU or not.

Luigi's cyclone is a completely different animal than it was on 3DS due to easier mashing, and this substantially affects his killing, edgeguarding, and recovery. Boss showed up at my locals yesterday and I had no idea how to get around Tornado edgeguarding. I feel I was fairly competitive in most other respects but Tornado was something I wasn't really ready for, as online Luigis don't really use it offstage effectively. I think a quick discussion would be warranted.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can we ask MU questions outside of this week's character of discussion? I don't really have a hard time against DK as Gannon but I cannot beat Villager.

Where are the weaknesses of this character? How do I get in from all the projectile spam? What are my kill moves I should be going for to eliminate this pest?

I can stop the projectiles with power shield, but I cannot gain any ground and if I do get close he just runs to the other side of the map and the process restarts.

If you're letting Villager just get past you, you probably just need to work on punishing rolls maybe?

Honestly the only thing you have to do in this matchup is not take unnecessary damage and find a way to get the lead (predict his defensive options and punish. For instance if you predict a Lloid, you can sometimes punish with DA. Try to learn his grab habits as well) Once you have the lead, it's on Villager to make the move on you, and all his approach options are risky. ESPECIALLY if you have a stock lead, don't even bother approaching. Just wait and be content with staying center stage and playing defensively.

Vs custom villager idk yet what to do about trip sappling.

 

[Xinc]

Feel free to continue talking about other MUs but I would like the main focus to be around DK (Current matchup). If something really groundbreaking like Luigi's cyclone comes up, I'll be sure to implement the change. After discussion, of course.

 

[Smob]

If you're letting Villager just get past you, you probably just need to work on punishing rolls maybe?

Honestly the only thing you have to do in this matchup is not take unnecessary damage and find a way to get the lead (predict his defensive options and punish. For instance if you predict a Lloid, you can sometimes punish with DA. Try to learn his grab habits as well) Once you have the lead, it's on Villager to make the move on you, and all his approach options are risky. ESPECIALLY if you have a stock lead, don't even bother approaching. Just wait and be content with staying center stage and playing defensively.

Vs custom villager idk yet what to do about trip sappling.

DA = down air?

So basically what you are saying is shield his forward air and try to punish him when he uses the lloid? I know his approach options are not very safe but I'm having the most issues with forward air spam in the neutral and the lloids (which you've already touched on so thanks for that). I don't really understand how Ganon would play defensively against Villager since Villager has a projectile for forward air and and forces you to shield it. Do I just stand there and keep shielding it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

DA = down air?

So basically what you are saying is shield his forward air and try to punish him when he uses the lloid? I know his approach options are not very safe but I'm having the most issues with forward air spam in the neutral and the lloids (which you've already touched on so thanks for that). I don't really understand how Ganon would play defensively against Villager since Villager has a projectile for forward air and and forces you to shield it. Do I just stand there and keep shielding it?

DA = Dash Attack. If you predict a Lloid, you can punish the startup with a Dash Attack, and even if you trade, the trade is in your favor.

Block the slingshots. Depending on how close you are upon powershielding, you can either try to punish, or force defensive responses from Villager which you can sometimes pressure with DA and force him to sit still and not press buttons, which gives you time to get closer. It's hard to be really specific, just it depends on how far away he is. Mostly just shield the slingshots and judge your options to pressure after blocking.

Again your goal is to read Villager a few times, get the % lead against him by landing a few good hits or ending his stock where applicable, and turtle so that he's forced to approach you. Don't bother approaching when you have a clear lead, just sit there, block/dodge his projectiles, and wait for him. It's not worth approaching him and throwing away the lead to his edgeguards.

 

[Blobface]

Made this post on the Custom project thread. I'll quote it here

I messed around in training and found a few interesting things about Kong Cyclone. I've noticed recently that players almost always have a frame advantage out of the Up-B, so I wanted to test it specifically.

None of these were 100% consistent, so think of them as general rules.

• Getting hit from the side gives little frame advantage
• Getting hit from below gave me enough frame advantage to land Ganon's F6 U-air
• Getting hit from above gave me so much Frame advantage my U-air wound up hitting his armor
• All of these are dependent on how DK is moving. The more he moves, the more frame advantage you have. The less he moves, the less frame advantage you have.

Ganon can U-air DK out of Kong Cyclone. It's easy to land if he comes from below (just mash), requires special timing if he comes from above (gives you way too much frame advantage), and if he comes from the side it's (AFAIK) impossible to directly counter. In that situation try to airdodge if it won't get you killed.

Because of this, I believe the best counter to Kong Cyclone's defensive abilities (which usually involves him windboxing you from above) is to deliberately get caught and take your free punish. I intend to test this with players in the next few days.

At 0%, you can actually land two U-airs off a counter if he stuns you just as you hit him for an easy 25%. It also has the added bonus of looking hilarious. Ganondorf just flops around like a fish and DK suddenly takes 25%.

 

[Blobface]

Pardon the double post, but I wanted to bump for the sake of discussion.

Played against one of the DK's today with customs on, figured I'd post my impressions.

First of all, going to make a bold statement: Kong Cyclone is a drastically overestimated move. Maybe the DK just wasn't good enough. Maybe he didn't abuse it as much as he could have. Maybe it's not as bad for Ganon. But I never felt like I was fighting a broken, fear-mongering move from hell. It really felt like I was just fighting a normal Heavy with a really good Nair. At least 50% of the time he used it, one of the following happened: I just beat it outright before the armor started, the windbox just sort of bounced me around and didn't accomplish anything, or I outright U-air'd him out of it while being hit. It only killed me once in 1 and a half hours of play. You don't even need to do any goofy shenanigans to beat it either, no command grabs, no excess shielding. I basically played normally but carefully.

While it's still a good move, I really don't think Kong Cyclone will be that much of a problem for a Ganon player. You just need to pull back a bit and play a bit more carefully, and Ganon mains are plenty used to doing that. Treat it like you would Luigi's Nair.

Now onto what I found problematic. First of all, DK has a ton of usable customs, and while I'm too lazy to go into extreme detail here, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with all of them.
Focused slap is a powerful kill move with a long lasting, but short ranged, hitbox.
Hot slaps is an excellent anti-air.
Stubborn headbutt can break out of combos.
Jumping Headbutt allows for lots of platform mixups.
Lightning punch is basically a faster, weaker version of the normal punch.
But Storm Punch was the really scary one. If he has one fully charged, be very careful. Since a lot of what Ganon does is punishable, you can get absolutely blown away, quite literally. Several times, I was literally tossed all the way into the blastzone at incredibly low %'s (speaking of windbox shenanigans, be careful against Kong Cyclone offstage. If he catches you out of your recovery and doesn't hit you upwards, he can drag you down with him for an easy kill, though it does have to kill him too since Ganon's ledge grab range is a thing). Normal strategy for dealing with this kind of charged attack apply, but you need to be much more careful here because it's much deadlier.

And the juggles, the friggin' juggles! DK's juggling abilities are insane. And it's not like Mario either, you can't just break out by tossing out a big meaty hitbox because a big meaty hitbox is what's juggling you.

As a result of this, I suggest the custom set 1121. I figured Dropkick would be necessary to deal with Storm Punch, but I found that any time Storm Punch actually sent me far enough to gimp, I wasn't high enough to use Dropkick. On top of that, I was missing loads of opportunities onstage and getting juggled like a bowling pin above stage. Having Wizkick makes DK's juggles so much easier to deal with, and it's a much better punish.

Overall, I'd say it's 55:45 without customs, and 50:50 with customs. Ganon outpowers DK easily, and Wizkick is an excellent counter to one of DK's best attributes, but DK overall has a much better neutral and is fat and hard to kill. With Customs, DK gets Kong Cyclone, an excellent move overall that helps in many situations, while Ganon gets Dark Fists, which, while a potent kill move, doesn't really do anything "Anti-DK".

I'll finish with a few tech things

• U-air is easily your best move for breaking out of Kong Cyclone, as it's not only your fastest aerial but puts DK in a bad state as well.
• If you have a low frame advantage (refer to my quoted post above), airdodge. If you have a medium frame advantage, use U-air. If you're offstage, I'd recommend taking the hit (unless you're at kill % of course). It sends you straight up anyways, and airdodging or attacking DK when you're in the Cyclone offstage runs the risk of getting gimped by wind shenanigans.
• When you break out of Kong Cyclone with U-air, you retain your momentum from the windbox. Since U-air has very horizontal knockback, you can use this to your advantage for wacky combos.

 

[Xinc]

Pardon the double post, but I wanted to bump for the sake of discussion.

Played against one of the DK's today with customs on, figured I'd post my impressions.

First of all, going to make a bold statement: Kong Cyclone is a drastically overestimated move. Maybe the DK just wasn't good enough. Maybe he didn't abuse it as much as he could have. Maybe it's not as bad for Ganon. But I never felt like I was fighting a broken, fear-mongering move from hell. It really felt like I was just fighting a normal Heavy with a really good Nair. At least 50% of the time he used it, one of the following happened: I just beat it outright before the armor started, the windbox just sort of bounced me around and didn't accomplish anything, or I outright U-air'd him out of it while being hit. It only killed me once in 1 and a half hours of play. You don't even need to do any goofy shenanigans to beat it either, no command grabs, no excess shielding. I basically played normally but carefully.

While it's still a good move, I really don't think Kong Cyclone will be that much of a problem for a Ganon player. You just need to pull back a bit and play a bit more carefully, and Ganon mains are plenty used to doing that. Treat it like you would Luigi's Nair.

Now onto what I found problematic. First of all, DK has a ton of usable customs, and while I'm too lazy to go into extreme detail here, I suggest that you familiarize yourself with all of them.
Focused slap is a powerful kill move with a long lasting, but short ranged, hitbox.
Hot slaps is an excellent anti-air.
Stubborn headbutt can break out of combos.
Jumping Headbutt allows for lots of platform mixups.
Lightning punch is basically a faster, weaker version of the normal punch.
But Storm Punch was the really scary one. If he has one fully charged, be very careful. Since a lot of what Ganon does is punishable, you can get absolutely blown away, quite literally. Several times, I was literally tossed all the way into the blastzone at incredibly low %'s (speaking of windbox shenanigans, be careful against Kong Cyclone offstage. If he catches you out of your recovery and doesn't hit you upwards, he can drag you down with him for an easy kill, though it does have to kill him too since Ganon's ledge grab range is a thing). Normal strategy for dealing with this kind of charged attack apply, but you need to be much more careful here because it's much deadlier.

And the juggles, the friggin' juggles! DK's juggling abilities are insane. And it's not like Mario either, you can't just break out by tossing out a big meaty hitbox because a big meaty hitbox is what's juggling you.

As a result of this, I suggest the custom set 1121. I figured Dropkick would be necessary to deal with Storm Punch, but I found that any time Storm Punch actually sent me far enough to gimp, I wasn't high enough to use Dropkick. On top of that, I was missing loads of opportunities onstage and getting juggled like a bowling pin above stage. Having Wizkick makes DK's juggles so much easier to deal with, and it's a much better punish.

Overall, I'd say it's 55:45 without customs, and 50:50 with customs. Ganon outpowers DK easily, and Wizkick is an excellent counter to one of DK's best attributes, but DK overall has a much better neutral and is fat and hard to kill. With Customs, DK gets Kong Cyclone, an excellent move overall that helps in many situations, while Ganon gets Dark Fists, which, while a potent kill move, doesn't really do anything "Anti-DK".

I'll finish with a few tech things

• U-air is easily your best move for breaking out of Kong Cyclone, as it's not only your fastest aerial but puts DK in a bad state as well.
• If you have a low frame advantage (refer to my quoted post above), airdodge. If you have a medium frame advantage, use U-air. If you're offstage, I'd recommend taking the hit (unless you're at kill % of course). It sends you straight up anyways, and airdodging or attacking DK when you're in the Cyclone offstage runs the risk of getting gimped by wind shenanigans.
• When you break out of Kong Cyclone with U-air, you retain your momentum from the windbox. Since U-air has very horizontal knockback, you can use this to your advantage for wacky combos.

Duly noted. Thanks for your feedback. I'll update accordingly.

 

[Xinc]

Alright, I basically have this done but am writing up a short "Which stage do you want to go to" in the Understanding Matchup section. I want some feedback on this. I understand DK has some pretty interesting platform tricks including Cyclone Kong, while Ganon really does appreciate Battlefield.

So stages Ganon should be taking right now appear to be Town and City, Smashville, Final Destination? I think BF benefit DK more.

 

[TheArabSamurai]

Final Destination is definitely the best stage for this match up. Cyclone Kong can still be abused the one platform on Smashville, it's not worth it taking that risk. Final Destination doesn't give Ganon a lot of advantages, Ganon really benefits from platforms, however, Donkey Kong can easily overwhelm us with platforms, so going to Final Destination would give DK quite a few disadvantages making this match up easier.

 

[Candlejack]

Agreed with FD. We're on a more even playing field here, we both appreciate platforms but DK definitely can abuse them more in a customs environment in my opinion. Gives us more optimal punishes since he can't Use Kong Cyclone, and retreat to a platform. Smashville if I had to pick something else. As for CP's theres not much room here. I'd like to avoid delfino/halberd since those are very safe for DK to maneuver around, and gives him some early kill set ups with the blast zones. /Maybe/ I'd take him to duck hunt?

 

[TheArabSamurai]

Agreed with FD. We're on a more even playing field here, we both appreciate platforms but DK definitely can abuse them more in a customs environment in my opinion. Gives us more optimal punishes since he can't Use Kong Cyclone, and retreat to a platform. Smashville if I had to pick something else. As for CP's theres not much room here. I'd like to avoid delfino/halberd since those are very safe for DK to maneuver around, and gives him some early kill set ups with the blast zones. /Maybe/ I'd take him to duck hunt?

Isn't Duck Hunt generally a bad stage for us? The platforms on the tree is impossible to get on without using up-b.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Does that really matter? So what, they go up there and hey presto they're above us. Worst place to be imo.

 

[Xinc]

Does that really matter? So what, they go up there and hey presto they're above us. Worst place to be imo.

If we're going to make a comprehensive matchup for Ganondorf, we might as well talk about stages as well so people figure out what stage is bad and what's good. DK's definitely a good example in which he benefits from Ganon's normally preferred stage options (ex BF). Truly a Bizarro stage matchup.

 

[Candlejack]

Does that really matter? So what, they go up there and hey presto they're above us. Worst place to be imo.

Agreed. Especially in customs. If they're camping ontop of the tree I'm pretty positive dark fists will clip them and KO them.

Isn't Duck Hunt generally a bad stage for us? The platforms on the tree is impossible to get on without using up-b.

It might just be a personal preference. I usually win on this stage. Also, DK's up B doesn't have good vertical recovery as it is.

 

[Sykkamorre]

If we're going to make a comprehensive matchup for Ganondorf, we might as well talk about stages as well so people figure out what stage is bad and what's good. DK's definitely a good example in which he benefits from Ganon's normally preferred stage options (ex BF). Truly a Bizarro stage matchup.

I was referring to people going on the tree on DH stage. Talking about stages is a great addition to this thread xD

Sorry if that confused anyone.

 

[Z1GMA]

Shall we move on?

 

[Xinc]

Shall we move on?

Yes. I have the entire writeup ready. It'll be up tonight. If anyone has anything to add, please say so now (or ASAP).

Apologies for taking so long,

Spoiler

I had to settle my stuff into my dorm for the summer semester

 

[A2ZOMG]

Isn't Duck Hunt generally a bad stage for us? The platforms on the tree is impossible to get on without using up-b.

Ledge jump.

Duck Hunt imo is actually a great Ganon stage given abusing grass cover and the Dog platform favors high reward shenanigans. The very high platform on the tree helps you avoid ledge traps

 

[Xinc]

Ledge jump.

Duck Hunt imo is actually a great Ganon stage given abusing grass cover and the Dog platform favors high reward shenanigans. The very high platform on the tree helps you avoid ledge traps

Tbh I wouldn't recommend going to Duck Hunt in most scenarios due to the overall large main platform, which makes it difficult for Ganon to approach. Though it does work in niche scenarios. I suppose Duck Hunt isn't a bad choice in this scenario since DK can't benefit as much with the platforms.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Tbh I wouldn't recommend going to Duck Hunt in most scenarios due to the overall large main platform, which makes it difficult for Ganon to approach. Though it does work in niche scenarios. I suppose Duck Hunt isn't a bad choice in this scenario since DK can't benefit as much with the platforms.

Tell that to me, I prefer FD over BF any day as Ganon precisely because I believe he actually needs a lot of horizontal space to function well, and because some of his best land trap options don't work as well with platforms. Maybe I wouldn't go long flat stages against Sonic and maybe Mii Gunner, but virtually anyone else, you need a lot of real estate to walk around to establish good positioning before you mount your midrange offense.

Once you learn to navigate the tree on Duck Hunt, I'd say it's overall a pretty favorable stage to get used to. The wall limits your opponent's recovery options (even if they hug the stage, you can kill them with reverse aerial wizkick or tipman U-air pretty easily), the stage gimmicks actually are great for addressing problems that Ganon normally has such as landing options and getting away with things safely, and even Stale Moves (hit the Ducks with less used moves if you really need to).

 

[Xinc]

DK Writeup. Input appreciated. Or we could just go on to Diddy.

Character Description: Donkey Kong is an anthropomorphic mountain gorilla appearing in the Donkey Kong and Mario video game franchises. A popular character, he has appeared in many video games.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Donkey Kong is a fairly large character but is unaffected by down tilt or forward tilt. Jab is the only option outside of Flame Choke guaranteed if not teched. It is possible to choke him again if you read him, as well as punish a back roll with another Choke. Similarly, it's possible to read a back roll and down-air (stomp)


How to Deal with Projectiles: Luckily for us, Donkey Kong does not have any projectiles outside of the custom Hot Slap, which is good for anti-air. It is great vertically, but has little horizontal reach. It is possible to punish to cool down of the move with a fast move like Wizard's Foot.

Understanding the Matchup:

DK vs Ganon is a very volatile matchup. DK has better range than Ganon does and is generally better on the ground. Both are very good at juggling each other, but Ganon is far better on the air. DK having longer reach can afford to play the spacing game (footsies) more easily, but Ganon can intercept and punish any of his moves if he leaves an opening. Flame Choke is also a good way to reset the situation and swat away DK with a jab.

In addition, Ganon is far better in the air. His neutral air and up air are wonderful launching moves that send DK away and can regain center stage easily. Furthermore, Neutral air allows Ganon to dominate in the air, as it is long reaching and comes out quickly, beating all of Dk's aerials. Forward Tilt is also a great spacing move, but is also the primary killing move at higher percents.

On the ground, DK outshines Ganon. DK's ground mobility is great and his cargo up throw to up air can be disastrous for Ganon. DK can approach more easily, his down B beating a large portion of defensive grounded options, while his forward tilt and up tilt can beat short hop approaches. Furthermore, Ganon's size makes him victim to eating DK's back air.

In the air, DK's large mass leaves him vulnerable to Ganon's back air, which deals a hefty 16-17% per hit. His wide frame can cause him to eat multiple back airs at lower percents. Since all of Ganon's moves deal high damage, Dk doesn't want to trade with him.

DK's Headbutt and Hand Slap eat shields, so spacing is crucial, as well as power shielding. Dk's Stubborn Headbutt has super armor (so it can stop combos and juggling) while focus slap has kill power but less range. Against these moves, timing is everything. Wizard's Foot will be able to hit without having to trade during the cool down period of Hand Slap, so be careful about timing.

Edgeguarding DK may seem extremely difficult at first. All of DK's recoveries are very good horizontally, but bad vertically, and can be intercepted. DK's safest way or recovery in several match ups is to bait out edge guard attempts from afar and up-B to reach the ledge. Predict this and use up air to counter his recovery. You should be able to cover many of his options with either up air or neutral air, both of which swat him away. If he is caught with little choice but to recover from being booted by forward tilt, forward air or spike should also neuter him. Out of Kong Cyclone, Ganon can up-air from under, which will swat DK away far easier than if he hits from above (requires timing) or on the side (very difficult). There are also frames where DK is vulnerable, and Ganon can land a Stomp on him during Kong Cyclone if he's above DK.

Cyclone Kong will most likely be the custom seen more. It's difficult to punish, especially with stages with platforms, as they only make punishing it difficult. It's possible to spot dodge the cyclone and punish, but the horizontal speed may be difficult to punish.

Bear in mind that both characters have recoveries with flaws and early gimps are possible on either side, making this matchup very volatile, especially when characters are off-stage.



Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards , and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. If launched in the air, DK can die at a ridiculously early percent.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it mitigates Ganondorf's below average recovery. This is especially important if Storm Punch is one of DK's customs, as Ganon can more easily get back on stage. Also, it can avoid DK's dash attack and punish it if timed properly.



Stages to consider:

Normally, Ganon prefers platforms, but since DK has better reach as well can retreat safely on platforms with his specials (customs), a flatter stage will hinder DK as he will be less inclined to use them as they will be less safe.

Final Destination: Though Ganon doesn't benefit anything from this stage, DK loses more usage with his custom moves, making this matchup easier for Ganon.

Duck Hunt: While Duck Hunt is normally one of the stages Ganon doesn't like, in this matchup, he benefits far more. Ganon's ledge jump is extremely high, which allows him to reach the high platform on the tree, avoiding ledge traps. The grass cover is abusable and the Dog platforms are less advantageous for DK as well. Also on the chance DK decides to get up on the high tree, Dark Fists will be able to hit him hard.

Though it appears Smashville and Town & City also give this benefit to Ganon, the platforms still can be abused by DK. Please be careful.


Short Summary of Matchup:

What Ganon wants is to pop DK a little bit into the air above him. DK's options in this area are nonexistent, which allows Ganon to juggle him easily. What DK has going for him in this matchup is that he has a superior ground game, being able to out-space Ganon and having a good juggle game with barrel-grab up throw to up air. What Ganon has to counter this is his ability to trade with DK, and that he is far more superior in the air (when below DK). Furthermore, Ganon deals more damage, which is why trading is a good option as Ganon.

Overall, the matchup is very close, but there will definitely be many surprises in the matchup, especially with customs turned on. Storm Punch and Cyclone Kong are two of most confusing and deadliest moves in DK's arsenal (Please don't use flame choke if you anticipate Storm Punch coming, you'll be just knocked away), so Ganon needs to play more conservatively.

Because DK is heavy, Ganon should aim for killing DK on the side at a low trajectory so DK will be pressed to recover in an obvious manner. Forward Tilt is a prime example of this at mid to high percents.


CM Ratio of the Matchup: 50-50

Ratio of the Matchup: 55-45


Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG @ Blobface @Vermanubis @Big O @adom4 @ Sykkamorre @ Ray_Kalm @ Opana @ Z1GMA


FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING DIDDY KONG!

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Gunblade789 I know you have some experience against great Diddy players like Jtails. If you have input, it would be great to hear from you.

As for me, I actually admit I haven't played this matchup very often. To my recollection, his short size, F-air spacing, and Banana traps are certainly annoying, but on the upside, I don't think Ganon really cares much about Monkey Flip when his preferred tools are actually pretty good head on against it.

 

[Xinc]

Kindly keep all the HOO-HAHs to a minimum. Thank you. Let's discuss Diddy!