Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Xinc]

Duly noted, folks. Please feel free to comment about Link and how he stacks up against Ganon now. In my opinion, it's at least closer to even now since Ganon saw these fairly good buffs that makes it harder for Link to punish his landing options (Wizkick shield damage).

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's kinda not cool that his Uair and Usmash cleanly beat aerial wizkick though from directly below.

The buffs Ganon got aren't hugely consequential in this matchup honestly. The Fair buff matters the most given Link has to respect it in neutral. Would argue the matchup is still slight advantage Link.

 

[Xinc]

OK I'll be starting the writeup in the next few hours. Just gotta hand in my final deliverable and smooth sailing from there (I hope).

 

[Sykkamorre]

Can we have a quick chat about custom Mario pls?

A2 opened my eyes to possibly one of our most annoying and nigh-impossible MU's recently and i'd like to hear other people's thoughts on the matter.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Customs is 6/4 Mario's favor. Default, 55/45 Ganondorf's favor. Mario always has to fear Ganondorf's superior edgeguards and juggles, but primarily on customs he wins neutral and gets safe KO confirms.

 

[Abbey Street]

Like A2 pointed out, it's Mario's game to lose in customs. Fast Fireballs, Scalding F.L.U.D.D and KO confirms out of grab make Mario a challenging matchup in customs as it's hard as hell to get to him, but once you get up in his grill it's the same story as vanilla: easy juggles and edgeguards.

Remember, since it's still Mario, you've got plenty of options for unteched Flame Chokes as well!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Like A2 pointed out, it's Mario's game to lose in customs. Fast Fireballs, Scalding F.L.U.D.D and KO confirms out of grab make Mario a challenging matchup in customs as it's hard as hell to get to him, but once you get up in his grill it's the same story as vanilla: easy juggles and edgeguards.

Remember, since it's still Mario, you've got plenty of options for unteched Flame Chokes as well!

Speaking of choke, if they don't tech, it's fairly easy to react to Mario's DI to techchase him. Especially if they DI inwards (will happen pretty often near the ledge), this will avoid buffered F-tilt due to hurtbox shenanigans, but you can chase with pivot F-tilt instead.

 

[Gemba Board]

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-directory.392535/page-3#post-19955244

I'm trying to discuss the ganon:metaknight matchup in the metaknight matchup thread. If any of you are interested in discussion, please come on down and provide us with some ganon-main insight. Thanks!

 

[Xinc]

Here's Link guys and gals!

Character Description: There are many incarnations of Link, each possessing the Spirit of the Hero, with some of them being blood related as well. They are chosen by the Goddesses to protect the land from evil whenever deemed necessary. In the majority of Zelda games, their adventures take place within Hyrule, traveling through the land, collecting important items, and defeating a wide variety of enemies while trying to save both Princess Zelda and her kingdom from the clutches of Ganon, Vaati, or other villains.

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Link can only be hit by a jab, which is good for resetting the situation. Furthermore, it's possible to follow up a roll away (if predicted) with a Wizard's Foot or Dash attack, while it's also possible to punish a roll behind with a down air. If Link does a Get Up Attack or just remains still on the ground, a pivot angled down forward smash will connect as well.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Link's specials are all projectiles, sans the Spin Attack. He has a great deal of midrange tools, ranging from boomerang and arrows to keeping you away, bombs to disrupt your momentum and to use in combos, and tethers to also start combos. One piece of advice would be to ban Battlefield, as Link will be unable to camp under platforms and attack you safely with up smash. Similarly, if you can also ban Final Destination, Link will be unable to camp you with arrows and boomerangs. Perfect shielding goes a long way, as you don't receive any pushback or eat any shield damage.

Understanding the Matchup:
Link's neutral game is a zoning-type game. He wants to keep you out with his projectiles and pressure you into approaching when he's prepared to punish you. Your goal as Ganon is to get in without being punished and be able to get out safely, or potentially kill Link.You have the tools to do this.

The problem Link suffers is the same most characters suffer; it's that he's not that good when he's above a character. Whereas Link is great at combo-ing, the same could be said for Ganon against Link. Link's weight and fall speed make it simple for Ganon to use simpler combos at lower percents (down throw-> wizard's foot) without fearing retaliation, and still end up close enough to attack again. At low-mid percents, Ganon can also down-throw up air Link, which puts him in a precarious position and Ganon is a position to tech chase Link if he would fall onto the stage.

Ganondorf is great at tech-chasing. He has a lot of options, especially out of flame choke. If Link fails to tech, Ganondorf can jab Link in order to send him away and prepare for another attack (Wizard's Foot or dash attack being extremely viable). Similarly, he can punish Link's rolling options with a Wizkick if Link tech rolls or just rolls away, grab if he techs in place, a forward smash or stomp if Link rolls behind.

Grabs: Link's throws do not kill at a reasonable percent other than up-throw which still kills later than ideal. What you want to do is be careful about his grab range. Being grabbed and being unable to mash out spells a down throw at low percents which will rack up your damage counter very quickly, not unlike Mario's throw combos.

Edgeguarding: Link's up-B can hit before he snaps on the ledge so trumping Link may be a bit difficult. It's easier to hit Link from below or at horizontal, as Spin Attack doesn't cover that. Similarly, aerial Wizard's Foot will clash, and if it hits the meteor hitbox, Link will be spiked downwards with tremendous force.

Customs to consider:
Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it mitigates Ganondorf's below average recovery. Also, it's weaker than Wizkick but could avoid some projectiles and knock Link into an unfavorable position, especially if off-stage.

Stages to consider:
Smashville: Though you're also victim to being juggled by aerials, Ganondorf can also do the same to Link. He doesn't get the safety of platforms to hide under from Battlefield, nor can he afford to camp Ganondorf with projectiles, given such a small stage.

Short Summary of Matchup:

Link saw a giant buff to the point where getting too close can get us grabbed, which can lead to up tilt juggles and potentially death. So don't be surprised if you recklessly rush in and find yourself 60% from a combo.

Be careful about Link's tilts as they have the potential to go through or clash with Ganon's if timed correctly. However, sans down tilt, they are unsafe on shield, meaning shielding and punishing is ideal.

The key to this matchup is staying midrange and avoiding Link's projectile attacks, and catch him making a mistake. It's also possible to grab his bomb and throw it back at him and close in the distance safely that way. Be sure to not overextend yourself and back out when Link has the opportunity to retaliate or you may find yourself going from 0 to 60.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55 SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE

Ratio of the Matchup: 45-55 SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE

Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG @ Xinc @ Vermanubis @Z1GMA @ Rizen @ Abbey Street @ Sykkamorre @A_Phoenix_Down @Lozjam @Opana @Z1GMA


FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING ZELDA!

 

[Abbey Street]

For Zelda, I'd say even matchup, maybe slightly in Ganon's favor.

The thing that catches most people off guard about Zelda is her surprisingly good ground game, thanks in most part to her grab. Dash grab is really good, all other grab options above average. Up smash makes hitting from above difficult, even with the stomp. She's Sheik-tier light though, so she dies fairly easily if she gets hit, despite her amazing recovery.
That's my two cents for this matchup.

Also, unteched Flame Choke goes into D-tilt regardless of her choice of action out of it. We can not Jab or F-tilt her out of choke though.

 

[TheArabSamurai]

Zelda can also combo and juggle Ganon off of down throw. I've had neutral air and forward air confirm after down throw in this match-up. Also noteworthy is how is that Zelda's aerials are deceptively fast. First hit of her NAIR comes out on frame 6, FAIR on frame 9 and BAIR on frame 6.

While recovering, she can gimp us quite easily, the late hitbox of DAIR still spikes.

Also, no matter what option (unteched) Zelda goes for after Flame choke, D-tilt always connects, which makes killing her a lot easier. D-tilt will kill her at around 110%. So at around 99% Ganon can get his kill confirm.

Grounded, almost all of Zelda's moves come out faster than ours, with the exception of jab, DA comes out frame 6, f-tilt frame 8, up tilt frame 7 and down tilt frame 5. But Ganon's has a SLIGHT advantage in terms of range.

Like a lot of his MUs, Ganon has some trouble finding a reliable approach option with no customs, so your best option is to get her to approach and act accordingly and punish it. But be aware of your spacing, using Zelda requires a lot of precision as a lot of early kills can be netted with sweetspotted FAIRs and BAIRs, don't put yourself in spots where you can get hit by it.

As for stages, you wanna avoid flat stages like Final Destination, or even Smashville. Strike to Dream Land or Battlefield if you can. Town & City may also give help you, netting you early kills with Ganon's extreme killpower and Zelda's relative lightweight, but she can still juggle you well on this stage, so beware.

Zelda has great combo ability and has great killing power, definitely a character that shouldn't be slept on. This matchup is near even with no customs or slight advantage with customs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda has a better grab game and edgeguards. Ganon has better aerials and is heavier. Matchup is pretty even.

It's really that straightforward honestly. Avoid getting sent offstage because her D-air gimps are really hard to avoid. On stage you'll overpower her in most exchanges, though you do have to be moderately respectful of her combo and KO confirm potential. Oh and you can't sleep on Lightning Kicks either.

 

[Vermanubis]

Maybe worth noting, but Zelda's extremely long roll, coupled with her strong defense, means that while she won't be killing us easily short of a sweetspot FAir/BAir, we won't be killing her very easily either... like... living 'til past 150% regularly.

 

[Rebel13]

Hi guys. I was browsing some forums and wow, someone is actually discussing my main O_O. Speechless.

Anyways Zelda vs Ganondorf is actually one of Zelda's better matchups imo. You talk about getting Zelda to approach, but realistically that wont happen much. Ganon is too slow to punish dins fire or phantom, especially with dins autocancel window (it still has to travel the minimum distance of course) and phantom's buffed hitbox. Up close Ganon will absolutely wreck face becasue he hits like a truck and Zelda is relatively light, but he should have a hard time getting there (and is one of very few with this problem). Ganon's recovery is also very easy to edgeguard for Zelda. I don't have enough experience vs this to say much more than that.

Even at best, probably very slightly Zelda's favor.

@ Abbey Street What did you say about Zelda's grab? Her dash grab is admittedly pretty good, but the others are among the worst in the game, basically Robin's grab with marginally (and I mean marginally) better range, and we know how bad his grab is.

 

[Vermanubis]

Hi guys. I was browsing some forums and wow, someone is actually discussing my main O_O. Speechless.

Anyways Zelda vs Ganondorf is actually one of Zelda's better matchups imo. You talk about getting Zelda to approach, but realistically that wont happen much. Ganon is too slow to punish dins fire or phantom, especially with dins autocancel window (it still has to travel the minimum distance of course) and phantom's buffed hitbox. Up close Ganon will absolutely wreck face becasue he hits like a truck and Zelda is relatively light, but he should have a hard time getting there (and is one of very few with this problem). Ganon's recovery is also very easy to edgeguard for Zelda. I don't have enough experience vs this to say much more than that.

Even at best, probably very slightly Zelda's favor.

@ Abbey Street What did you say about Zelda's grab? Her dash grab is admittedly pretty good, but the others are among the worst in the game, basically Robin's grab with marginally (and I mean marginally) better range, and we know how bad his grab is.

Ah, always nice to have an actual main show up.

And in my experience, you're right about approaching. Zelda's, imo, one of the harder characters for Ganon to approach. And with you guys' long-ass tech roll, choke is a completely nonviable kill option, even off of reads. So in spite of her lightness, she's tremendously tough to kill a lot of the time.

I agree with the general concensus with it being slightly in Zelda's favor.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Hi guys. I was browsing some forums and wow, someone is actually discussing my main O_O. Speechless.

Anyways Zelda vs Ganondorf is actually one of Zelda's better matchups imo. You talk about getting Zelda to approach, but realistically that wont happen much. Ganon is too slow to punish dins fire or phantom, especially with dins autocancel window (it still has to travel the minimum distance of course) and phantom's buffed hitbox. Up close Ganon will absolutely wreck face becasue he hits like a truck and Zelda is relatively light, but he should have a hard time getting there (and is one of very few with this problem). Ganon's recovery is also very easy to edgeguard for Zelda. I don't have enough experience vs this to say much more than that.

Even at best, probably very slightly Zelda's favor.

@ Abbey Street What did you say about Zelda's grab? Her dash grab is admittedly pretty good, but the others are among the worst in the game, basically Robin's grab with marginally (and I mean marginally) better range, and we know how bad his grab is.

Quick note on phantom. It is near worthless against us unfortunately. We destroy it very easily, which prevents it's use for a while. DA is great for this as it'll wreck the phantom and still hit Zelda, usually leading to an uair.

 

[Shmeckie]

What Sykkamore said. I'm gonna say this one is in Ganon's favor. Don't know by how much. Zelda can't zone Ganon very well at all, as Din's Fire is easy to avoid and leaves her open if she does it too close. I rarely find myself getting hit by this attack at all. Phantom is pretty useless as stated above. Zelda's light, and pretty easy to juggle. Her attacks are very punishable on block, and Ganon outranges most of her normals. Plus all those disjoints at Ganon's disposal puts him on even footing with all her disjointed sparkles.

Not sure where she supposedly has a superior edgeguard. I've only fought a few high-level Zeldas, but I have fought 'em, and haven't seen an issue there. Ganon's ridiculous ledge grab range can be exploited to recover from down deep and avoid attempts at pecking, and I've found u-airs to be effective at stuffing edgeguard attempts from my personal experience.

Now, again, this is just personal experience, but u-smash seems to be one of Ganon's best tools against her. If she comes for an approach? U-smash. Going for an aerial? U-smash. Rolling your way? U-smash of course. I get so much mileage out of U-smash in this matchup.

And if I'm not mistaken, d-tilt outranges most of her ground arsenal.

 

[Jyro]

I'd put this 60:40 in Ganon's favor. I think neither character can edgeguard the other well, so the KOs will come from hits closer to the center of the stage. Both have pretty bad grab/throw games too;no kill throws. Zelda has some tools to zone, but she doesn't have the additional mobility to keep away from Ganon forever, and it's easier for Ganon to KO from onstage. As Shmeckie said, Upsmash has a lot of uses and is a kill option. Fsmash can sway back to catch aerials coming in or a dash attack. Ganondorf's range and disjoints give him the edge mid-close range. Trades with Zelda's moves (esp. Nayru's love/fsmash/upsmash) usually end up in Ganon's favor. It's not hard to keep a good stage position.

For Zelda, her Fsmash/Dsmash/fair/bair hit at a low angle, so there is a chance that Ganon will get hit far/low enough away that he cant recover. Her dash attack comes out on frame 6 so it can be annoying, her tilts come out fast too. Nayru's love and Farore's wind come out fast and have some intangibility. Phantom slash can get in the way of Wizard's foot and adds hitlag to Ganon's attacks, making Din's fire safer. The big problem is that it is hard to KO Ganon.

So I think that in a drawn out spacing game, Ganon's ability to KO is better than Zelda's; more of his moves can kill earlier, especially with rage.

 

[Rebel13]

Wish more Zelda mains had shown up to give input here, because there is no way this matchup favors ganon. I never meant to imply that phantom was a good approach tool or that dins would ever actually hit anything. The point was just that Ganon should be the one approaching in most instances, which is usually Zelda's issue in her bad matchups. I also don't think you realize how badly Ganon is combo food for Zelda's main tools, and that he is one of a few characters that should be reliably dying off a grab: Dthrow Uair is guaranteed at a small range of kill percents, and there is always the 50/50 Uair or airdodge read Lightning kick. (high percents Bthrow kills or sets up easy horizontal edgeguard) And edge-guarding you is very easy unless you hug the stage on the way up. You should not be expecting to live past 120%.I guess this could very well be even, but as @ Vermanubis said, Zelda's tech rolls avoid choke kills and her general attributtes make her hard to kill. Ganondorf also has few ways to deal with us in shield.

Some advice for you guys if fighting Zelda. Always go for the trade when you can. Your moves are single hit moves and will do a lot more than any of Zeldas multihit attacks if they are interrupted. You should NOT be dash attacking through phantom; odds are you will trade with it and not actually hit Zelda provided we space it right. It will probably only be used while we are landing or out of a short hop. Cover her landings will Wizards foot, Zelda has poor landing options and will probably try to land far away from you with phantom or Favores (rarely on that one), just make sure its at the height where airdodging into the stage isn't an option. Trump her Favores recovery if you can. Dtilt outranges all of Zelda's ground options. And be wary airdodging out of her throws, a read into an Lkick will either kill you or put you offstage into an edgeguard situation.

Stages you will want are places like Battlefield or even Lylat. Upsmash for days, and Zelda can't do the same to you.

I see you're moving on to other things, anyways, hope this helps a bit.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Wish more Zelda mains had shown up to give input here, because there is no way this matchup favors ganon. I never meant to imply that phantom was a good approach tool or that dins would ever actually hit anything. The point was just that Ganon should be the one approaching in most instances, which is usually Zelda's issue in her bad matchups. I also don't think you realize how badly Ganon is combo food for Zelda's main tools, and that he is one of a few characters that should be reliably dying off a grab: Dthrow Uair is guaranteed at a small range of kill percents, and there is always the 50/50 Uair or airdodge read Lightning kick. (high percents Bthrow kills or sets up easy horizontal edgeguard) And edge-guarding you is very easy unless you hug the stage on the way up. You should not be expecting to live past 120%.I guess this could very well be even, but as @ Vermanubis said, Zelda's tech rolls avoid choke kills and her general attributtes make her hard to kill. Ganondorf also has few ways to deal with us in shield.

Some advice for you guys if fighting Zelda. Always go for the trade when you can. Your moves are single hit moves and will do a lot more than any of Zeldas multihit attacks if they are interrupted. You should NOT be dash attacking through phantom; odds are you will trade with it and not actually hit Zelda provided we space it right. It will probably only be used while we are landing or out of a short hop. Cover her landings will Wizards foot, Zelda has poor landing options and will probably try to land far away from you with phantom or Favores (rarely on that one), just make sure its at the height where airdodging into the stage isn't an option. Trump her Favores recovery if you can. Dtilt outranges all of Zelda's ground options. And be wary airdodging out of her throws, a read into an Lkick will either kill you or put you offstage into an edgeguard situation.

Stages you will want are places like Battlefield or even Lylat. Upsmash for days, and Zelda can't do the same to you.

I see you're moving on to other things, anyways, hope this helps a bit.

Nice post, but I have to disagree with your statement's about edgeguarding. Any move you try to use offstage while we're returning will be beaten by uair. You can use din's fire but that's about it. And I'm 100% sure after playing a few Zelda's that Dthrow uair can be avoided with DI. Also, DA doesn't trade. It goes through. We do It later than expected and our strong hitbox gets extended from the hitlag.

I feel like we're even. Very rarely has my spacing been bad enough to get L.kicked but I suppose if I played a Zelda who was good enough to get around my spacing my opinion might change.

 

[Rizen]

^Zelda actually has good edge guarding and better combo tools than you think.

Someone needs to change the thread title.

 

[Theosmeo]

I just looked over the gerudo follow-up chart and saw that full hop fast fall fair and full hop wizkick(w/o customs) aren't listed under punishes for getup attacks even though they are extremely reliable if you read a getup attack. Do they have secret glaring weaknesses that I'm not noticing or are they just unsafe unless you read properly. I was also wondering if there were any good follow ups for an aerudo because pressing jump 1 frame before side+b can whip one out really fast and I want to know if it can be useful for anything besides ganoncide.

 

[Alacion]

+1 Zelda. Zelda wrecks offstage Ganondorf regardless of location. Probably even with Ganondorf on stage. Zelda doesn't need fair/bair and she certainly doesn't space with them except in Melee.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon's longer range aerials and tilts however are something Zelda has to respect in neutral. Especially his aerials, as Zelda's anti-airs are generally situational and Ganon's aerials all have good shield push and often are difficult to punish on block.

I don't think Zelda really outdoes Ganon in neutral given she clearly can't really outpoke him. She has to guess, fundamentally. She has good options to end his stock, but Ganon ends stocks by just landing hits in neutral anyway. Ganon is punishable on whiff, so he doesn't dominate Zelda, but by virtue of his range and actually having good aerial spacing options I definitely believe he has the advantage in neutral in this matchup.

Again, I'd say the matchup is even. Customs on Ganon's favor slightly as WDK allows Ganon to get around some of the more threatening edgeguards while he still outperforms Zelda in neutral. This is a rare matchup where I'd also run Dark Dive (or even Dark Vault) instead of Dark Fists as Zelda often doesn't hit the armor frames on Dark Fists when edgeguarding given she can simply just wait for the lingering hitbox of D-air to connect with Ganon as he moves upwards, making the quicker movement of the other Up-Bs better for recovery.

 

[Rickster]

Hello Ganondorf mains!

So...I think Zelda vs Ganondorf is slightly in Zelda's favor.. You guys totally outdo us in the air, but Zelda can wreck Ganondorf offstage. Onstage/Neutral I say it's a tie.

Ganondorf is easy combo bait for Zelda, with her Utilt strings and throw follow-ups plus Ganondorf's falling speed and large hurtbox. She can do some nasty things, particularly with Nair, Jab, Dtilt, Utilt, Dthrow, and Uthrow.

However, Ganondorf has the range and power advantage, and he'll probably win all trades (especially ones with her multihits). Zelda is also light, so she can potentially die at like 70% if you get a good read. Ganondorf also has his guaranteed Flame Choke stuff which can kill at about...100 or so (but you guys probably already knew this). He also has that amazing Usmash, which we pretty much can't do anything about.

Zelda's Elevator probably won't get a ton of use here, since your moves have a lot of shield pushback. We'll have to read a dodge, try a roll/spotdodge of our own to avoid a laggy Attack/grab, or try a Nair setup to get it. That's not to say you should forget and disregard it, however. It's still extremely powerful and can shift a match in Zelda's favor rather quickly. But if we whiff it we're probably dead.

Zelda dominates this MU offstage. We can go incredibly deep for Dairs, Nairs, Phantoms, and even Kicks. Phantom has a great angle, and it can even slow your air movement some, which is very bad for Ganondorf. We also have our frame 5 Dsmash which is almost like an auto gimp at high %s. And if it doesn't gimp, it's a fairly easy edgeguard from there. Ganondorf shouldn't try and edgeguard Zelda too much, since her Teleport will just bypass him completely. Only go after us if you know EXACTLY where we're going or if you think you can bait an airdodge. You can also try for the 1 frame vulnerability, but we can choose to not snap the ledge and hit you with the Teleport, so it's not an easy way to shut us down.

Don't let Zelda land. Our landing options are horrible, so be sure to take advantage of this. Watch out for surprise Kicks, Nairs, and Nayru's though. Most of the time we'll retreat to the ledge since it's just..easier that way, lol. This gives you stage control over us.

Zelda has a long range projectile (albeit a very bad one) but Ganondorf has none at all. This means we can attempt to Phantom camp to stall (in case our shield gets low or something) but it shouldn't pose THAT much of a problem for Ganondorf. Proper Phantom camping would involve Zelda doing many retreating Phantoms followed by a SH Din's to stay mobile. You can destroy the Phantom, but we can then punish you in your endlag and hitlag.

I'd also like to add that a large majority of Zelda's attacks are disjointed and transcendent, so we can occasionally stop Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke with a simple Jab (our safest move) or even an Fsmash. Nayru's love also works great here, and it lingers so timing is less important. It also has intangibility on startup, so it may break through some moves. The endlag is bad though, so look for Nayru habits and punish accordingly.

Overall I would say that Ganondorf needs to be careful and not sleep on Zelda, or you might find yourself getting combo'd or gimped at 30%. Try not to let her get too much rage, and keep her in the air. The neutral is kinda weird, and stage control is very important in this MU for both characters. But due to Zelda's better mobility, projectile, walling ability, and offstage game, I'm going to say it's slightly in her favor.

55:45

(I apologize for any weird transitions/formatting/typos. I typed this on mobile when I was about to go to bed and stuff kept popping into my head, lol.)

EDIT: Oops forgot to mention that this is for default.

 

[_Magus_]

Hello Ganondorf mains!

So...I think Zelda vs Ganondorf is slightly in Zelda's favor.. You guys totally outdo us in the air, but Zelda can wreck Ganondorf offstage. Onstage/Neutral I say it's a tie.

Ganondorf is easy combo bait for Zelda, with her Utilt strings and throw follow-ups plus Ganondorf's falling speed and large hurtbox. She can do some nasty things, particularly with Nair, Jab, Dtilt, Utilt, Dthrow, and Uthrow.

However, Ganondorf has the range and power advantage, and he'll probably win all trades (especially ones with her multihits). Zelda is also light, so she can potentially die at like 70% if you get a good read. Ganondorf also has his guaranteed Flame Choke stuff which can kill at about...100 or so (but you guys probably already knew this). He also has that amazing Usmash, which we pretty much can't do anything about.

Zelda's Elevator probably won't get a ton of use here, since your moves have a lot of shield pushback. We'll have to read a dodge, try a roll/spotdodge of our own to avoid a laggy Attack/grab, or try a Nair setup to get it. That's not to say you should forget and disregard it, however. It's still extremely powerful and can shift a match in Zelda's favor rather quickly. But if we whiff it we're probably dead.

Zelda dominates this MU offstage. We can go incredibly deep for Dairs, Nairs, Phantoms, and even Kicks. Phantom has a great angle, and it can even slow your air movement some, which is very bad for Ganondorf. We also have our frame 5 Dsmash which is almost like an auto gimp at high %s. And if it doesn't gimp, it's a fairly easy edgeguard from there. Ganondorf shouldn't try and edgeguard Zelda too much, since her Teleport will just bypass him completely. Only go after us if you know EXACTLY where we're going or if you think you can bait an airdodge. You can also try for the 1 frame vulnerability, but we can choose to not snap the ledge and hit you with the Teleport, so it's not an easy way to shut us down.

Don't let Zelda land. Our landing options are horrible, so be sure to take advantage of this. Watch out for surprise Kicks, Nairs, and Nayru's though. Most of the time we'll retreat to the ledge since it's just..easier that way, lol. This gives you stage control over us.

Zelda has a long range projectile (albeit a very bad one) but Ganondorf has none at all. This means we can attempt to Phantom camp to stall (in case our shield gets low or something) but it shouldn't pose THAT much of a problem for Ganondorf. Proper Phantom camping would involve Zelda doing many retreating Phantoms followed by a SH Din's to stay mobile. You can destroy the Phantom, but we can then punish you in your endlag and hitlag.

I'd also like to add that a large majority of Zelda's attacks are disjointed and transcendent, so we can occasionally stop Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke with a simple Jab (our safest move) or even an Fsmash. Nayru's love also works great here, and it lingers so timing is less important. It also has intangibility on startup, so it may break through some moves. The endlag is bad though, so look for Nayru habits and punish accordingly.

Overall I would say that Ganondorf needs to be careful and not sleep on Zelda, or you might find yourself getting combo'd or gimped at 30%. Try not to let her get too much rage, and keep her in the air. The neutral is kinda weird, and stage control is very important in this MU for both characters. But due to Zelda's better mobility, projectile, walling ability, and offstage game, I'm going to say it's slightly in her favor.

55:45

(I apologize for any weird transitions/formatting/typos. I typed this on mobile when I was about to go to bed and stuff kept popping into my head, lol.)

EDIT: Oops forgot to mention that this is for default.

Interesting points. I'd like to add that while Zelda wrecks Ganondorf offstage, Ganondorf easily returns the favor. I doubt a light floaty character like zelda would enjoy taking any one of his freakishly strong aeriels. Plus there's always the Tipman Uair, which when used correctly is hard to avoid, especially for Zelda.

All in all, since Ganon equally wrecks Zelda (if not more) as much as she destroys him, and both characters have their points of dominance onstage, (Ganon: in the air/up close, Zelda: Longer Range) I'm gonna go ahead and say this matchup is about 50:50. Though in my experience, I've found it to be more 55:45 Ganon.

 

[Rebel13]

Interesting points. I'd like to add that while Zelda wrecks Ganondorf offstage, Ganondorf easily returns the favor. I doubt a light floaty character like zelda would enjoy taking any one of his freakishly strong aeriels. Plus there's always the Tipman Uair, which when used correctly is hard to avoid, especially for Zelda.

Unless you can catch the 1 frame ledge snap vulnerability, you won't be hitting Zelda offstage. We can recover from farther away than you can edgeguard without SDing.

 

[Rizen]

Zelda's recovery can completely bypass near the stage intercepting. Farow's wind is long rang, intangible while traveling, can be aimed in 8 directions and has a powerful hitbox at the start and end; it's incredibly good.
http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
Outside of a hard read, a good Zelda should not get intercepted offstage.

Ganon's best bets are to shield and punish the end lag or go for the 1 frame ledgesnap vulnerability like Rebel said. Either way it's avoidable by Zelda and requires a good read.

 

[_Magus_]

Outside of a hard read, a good Zelda should not get intercepted offstage.

Ganon's best bets are to shield and punish the end lag or go for the 1 frame ledgesnap vulnerability like Rebel said. Either way it's avoidable by Zelda and requires a good read.

You don't seem to understand. This is Ganondorf. Hard reads ARE our playstyle.

Point taken though. Sorry for the oversight.

 

[Swoops]

The HARDEST of reads.

I had a suggestion though and I'm not sure if anyone suggested it already, but what if you did the MU thread with a bit of a matchmaking aspect.

So instead of straight theory craft, each board can pick a representative you trust in game, and with a write up. Schedule a quick few matches and have each one write up some of their thoughts. If you wanted to go crazy with it you could even get multiple people playing for more data.

Seems more useful to just "fight each other already." But maybe we've already been doing that and I'm out of the loop >.<

 

[_Magus_]

The HARDEST of reads.

I had a suggestion though and I'm not sure if anyone suggested it already, but what if you did the MU thread with a bit of a matchmaking aspect.

So instead of straight theory craft, each board can pick a representative you trust in game, and with a write up. Schedule a quick few matches and have each one write up some of their thoughts. If you wanted to go crazy with it you could even get multiple people playing for more data.

Seems more useful to just "fight each other already." But maybe we've already been doing that and I'm out of the loop >.<

This^

Also, in my experience, Zelda doesn't wall Ganon quite as much as her players think she does. Her wall is nowhere near as hard to get into as a Link's or a Villager's. If a Ganondorf knows what he's doing, he should have no trouble getting in. All he needs is a little patience.

 

[TriTails]

I once caught that one ledge vulnerability with Luigi's D-taunt... in training mode, against a CPU Lucario .

That said. Ganon DOES make Zelda a dead princess if he manage to land something... but friggin' teleport is friggin' teleport.

Also, Farore's Wind is very flexible in directions, not in just 8 different ones. Same goes for Fox and Falco's FAYAH!, or similiar moves in general.

 

[_Magus_]

***Disclaimer*** Zelda Mains, I am NOT talking about you in particular. As TheBlackHokage says, "If it don't apply, let it fly."

This is gonna be a bit out of place, but hear me out. The past few MU discussions have reminded me of something that I see a lot as far as Ganondorf's MU discussions go.

Let me set this up. Ganondorf was pretty bad in Brawl. He was undoubtedly the most fun character, but not even the most devout of Ganon mains could deny that Ganondorf just didn't have the options other characters had. In a defensive game, a character that struggles against shield, the most defensive of options, is going to be difficult to compete with at a high level. Not impossible, just more difficult. But because of his struggles against shield and his edgehoggable recovery, Ganondorf was relegated to the Shadow Realm of the tier list.

This created a lot of stigma for the Gerudo King, unfortunately. People would throw around phrases like "Ganondorf sucks!' and "At least my main is better than Ganondorf." People saw Ganondorf as that guy that the entire roster was better than. (Except the three people who mained this guy ). Unfortunately, this stigma has continued into the next iteration of Smash.

Here's the scoop: In a developing meta, there is no tier list for people to pick their mains based off of. So naturally, people pick their favorite characters to main as the game is starting out. As the meta develops, some characters are found to have good MU spreads, while others unfortunately don't. However, the people who mained the characters with less than stellar MU spreads don't want to leave those characters, and want to validate both their time spent playing them and their enjoyment of the character. This is understandable. However, what these people do to validate those things is try to make their character seem as good as possible, even if it's an inaccurate depiction of their character. One common way they go about this is with MU discussions.

The stigma I mentioned earlier causes Ganondorf to be regarded as an "easy win" by most Smash players. Unfortunately, I see this a lot in those players whose mains are not being favored by Smash 4's developing meta. In an effort to make their character look as best as possible, (even if that image is inaccurate), they try to make them have as optimal of an MU spread as possible. And since most players regard Ganondorf as bad or an easy win, they assume that they have a good MU against him.

This is unjustifiable bias, and has no place in Matchup discussion of any kind. The only things that have a place here are MU knowledge, experience, and a FAIR ANALYSIS of both characters. If a matchup is represented inaccurately, it will hurt the metagames of not one but both characters involved. For the sake of your own character and for the sake of ours, please leave your bias at the front door when coming here to discuss MUs.

On a final note, Ganondorf has received numerous buffs since Brawl. If you're curious, most of them can be found here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ganondorf_(SSB4)
Assuming a character is bad based on past games is one of the worst mistakes any Smasher could make. This game is not Brawl. Assuming that Ganondorf is the same as he is in Brawl is not only a big mistake, but it is objectively an incorrect assumption. If you're going to assume these things, please don't come here to discuss MUs. We're discussing Smash 4 Ganondorf here, not Brawl Dorf. Thank you.

 

[Swoops]

All that aside, I think the Zelda players are making some valid points. However, I think we're all isolating a couple scenarios without regarding the bigger picture. FYI, I've spent some decent time playing Zelda and I really enjoy the character, so I hope that counts for something as you read this lol.

SORRY FOR THE WALL EVERYBODY

She has a very potent recovery as long as you don't hit a weird angle near the edge, so you most likely arent out right gimping a zelda who is recovering on point. The zelda players are spot on regarding this. However sometimes it can be difficult to be on point with certain stages. (I remember DL being an awkward one due to the flat wall, so I would consider CPing there, same with Lylat probably.) There is also the linear aspect to her recovery, almost more so than dorf, which makes trumping and mix ups effective. I would focus more on that in the match up then going offstage.

Conversely, when Ganondorf is offstage, I can see DAir being a problem for us. However, I'm not sure the extent of Zelda's "dominance." As of right now I find it hard to believe she "wrecks" ganondorf off stage any more than any other character can exploit his weakness there. Not to mention due the linearity of her recovery, going off stage versus a Ganondorf UAir, FAir, NAir, or DAir can be very risky.

But, and this is why I bring up the "bigger picture," what is Zelda really pressuring ganondorf with to get him off stage in the first place? Against Sheik for example, I'm constantly worried about being off stage because I know she has the ability to use an incredibly fast (and safe) FAir or dash grab to start a chain of moves that will easily carry me off stage, racking maybe 30% in the process.

By the zelda's admission, everything we have not only outrages you, but rewards us incredibly more than zelda as well. In my experience zelda is a footsie based character, finding success slowly working into DTilt/Jab range so she can set up grabs and possibly FAir/BAir/UAir/UpB (if you're really on point.) So now zelda is in a position where she needs to get into a range where her DTilt/Jab/dash grab will effectively threaten ganondorf (inside of ganon dtilt range) and keep herself outside of our range of grab/ftilt.

That's not where that ends though. Every one of ganondorf's moves in this range is a claymore. Doing a minimum of 10ish%, more likely 13%+ due to DTilt which can be safely thrown out at max distance, as well as DThrow > follow up for 19%+. Say Zelda does successfully work her way in through those moves into her optimum range, she can rack up a couple dtilts, grab, nair for solid damage if she's on point. Let's say 27%. Meanwhile I did that with two dtilts, you're closer to kill % than me, and your NAir didn't do much to put me in the off stage position you're looking for. In general, I don't think much zelda can do is putting me off stage unless I'm running into moves.

To beat my range you would have to challenge it, which zelda is not good at, and ganondorf punishes INCREDIBLY hard. You could play range game, but din's is very underwhelming, and while phantom is a solid option in neutral, ganondorf pretty much breaks in one hit with everything he has.

I wouldn't call this Ganon's advantage until I got more matches with good Zeldas, but I definitely wouldn't call it Zelda's advantage.

 

[DarkFox207]

Regarding the Zelda MU We have to use our tilts (mainly down tilt) to keep her off, if she's using dins fire just wait till she whiffs or just run in and Powershield. Now when we get a flame choke tech chase going on we have to maximize the dmg output and reads, if you manage to get her offstage and this is IMPORTANT do a ledge trump (Don't attack) and get back on the ledge when she tries to up b just SH grounded wizards foot, it will spike her and she dies at really low % 30 at most and this applies to any character. Just condition them to be aware of this setup and they'll be forced to mix up their recovery. They can buffer a ledge option after a trump so if that happens just try to choke or even up air them, most of the time they won't though so is a free stock. It works best against characters who don't have a hitbox in their recoveries and even if they have invincibility frames (Like Sheik) it will spike them. You just need to get the timming right and mix it up with a bair sometimes.
Sorry I've wanted to share this for a long time but never had the time to do so.

Now back to zelda when you are recovering against her try to go as low as you can they'll eventually have to up b, and avoid the DAIR even the sourspot is deadly for us.
For stages I will have to choose BF, DL just because we can up smash through platforms or up air as well and since everyone likes to shield grab ganon or just shield in general go for chokes (follow ups or tech chases), reads. I'll get some footage to show you guys the MU. I used to have a lot against the best Zelda in Panamá but dem patches Bros :/
Regards

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...IC7qHJJi-msSzsQrQ&sig2=FIsTfuK6iXEY8nwm3p2sww were discussingGanondorf and the rest of the zelda crew and would love your input

 

[Shmeckie]

Nice post, but I have to disagree with your statement's about edgeguarding. Any move you try to use offstage while we're returning will be beaten by uair.

I feel like this can't be emphasized enough. I actually experienced this for myself recently after fighting a really good Zelda who threw me for a loop initially. The u-air needs to be used earlier than usual to beat her d-air, but it will beat it clean.

As for edgeguarding Zelda, I'm not sure what the window on this is, but a few times I've managed to slam down the Volcano Kick as she teleported to the ledge. Dunno if there's a frame or two between the teleport and the ledge snap or if it was just several bouts of good luck, but I figured I should mention it.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I will however say that Zelda is one lf the few characters that I don't bother to attempt to gimp often. I'll throw a utilt out on occasion but I usually just try to read getup options to avoid her teleporting past me and gaining stage control.

 

[Xinc]

Thanks for the input, everyone! I'll do my best to have a compiled version in a week.

AS for myself, I feel that the matchup is close to 50-50. In short, Zelda has a good keep away game that forces Ganon to approach and can net gimps and go fairly deep, while Ganon is very good close range and midrange as he gives pressure to her. His raw power can also kill Zelda relatively early and Zelda's lack of grab followups makes it easier for Ganon to survive and not reach higher percents that quickly.

 

[Rickster]

I think I'll change my rating to 50:50 after thinking about this MU more and reading others' opinions.