Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Gold_TSG]

Either way Ganondorf wins, might as well spam Warlock Punch so it looks cooler.

I've done exactly this is every rare FG teams room where everyone switches to Dorf. It's the best feeling.

 

[Nintenbro_Zeke]

I love/hate Ganon dittos. It's a weird relationship, as I fear playing against Ganon cause I know what he can do! But it is a fun match (sometimes). I haven't really fought a good Dorf is such a long time so the more experienced GDorf player I don't have much input, but the obvious less played ones are easy to read as the majority is to just bait out a DownB or SideB and punish. Thats literally it.

Oh and of course watch out for the Ganoncides, but we all knew that already. ;p

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

What happened to Sheik?

 

[Xinc]

What happened to Sheik?

Sheik is next. In light of the holidays, I wanted everyone to enjoy writing about the Ditto before moving onto Sheik. I'll have the writeup on Ganon tonight or tomorrow night.

 

[Xinc]

Spoiler

Character Description: Known as the Great King of Evil or the Dark Lord, is the primary antagonist of the majority of games in the Legend of Zelda series. Ganondorf was born a member of the Gerudo; as the only male member to be born in a hundred years, Ganondorf is made either the King of the Gerudo or the Guardian of the Desert, depending on the game. Gifted with powerful magic, Ganondorf often seeks the omnipotent Triforce to grant his wish of conquering the entire world. He frequently wields the Triforce of Power, and stages coups against the Royal Family of Hyrule to take the Hyrulean Throne by force.

Spoiler

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Ironically, Ganondorf is not vulnerable to any followups out of a non-teched choke. However, you can punish a predicted roll-away with a Wizard's Foot or a sour spot Dash Attack for a Up Air follow up (True combo!! From this point forward, known as Castle Flip: http://smashboards.com/threads/lab-the-castle-flip-da-sourspot-to-up-air-combo-chart-wip.420749/ ), roll-towards with an angled down forward smash or Down air, and Getup Attack with a Down air or pivot angled-down forward smash.

How to Deal with Projectiles: No projectiles here. We're all good.

Understanding the Matchup:

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. His moves are fairly large, fittingly. Being good at your tech skills will be important, yes, but the battle truly lies within your wits. The smarter Ganon will usually win, despite the difference in tech-skill. Adapting to your opponent's play style is key.

Ganon's slow movement speed makes it important to space with aerials, so you can hit your enemy without putting yourself at risk. On the ground, Ganondorf's key moves to poke at his opponents are down tilt, forward tilt, forward smash, jab, and SH Up air. Forward Smash is a unique move that beats most footsie games (outside down tilt), as it has a deceivingly large range, and offers a large reward.

In the air, Ganondorf has one of the worst air speeds in the game. He descends slowly, in short. This makes his landing options very obvious. He could land regularly, which he can be punished before he does so. It's also possible to bait a down air or Wizard's Foot, punishing the recovery frames from those moves.

Reading Ganondorf's double jump and causing your opponent to waste it is basically piling him more damage, and most times will result in death. Ganondorf does not have a good recovery, so conserving the midair jump is essential for recovering. Otherwise, relying on the Up-B without a double jump to aid your return to the fray will be hazardous.

Speaking about recovery, Ganondorf has THE BEST ledge grab in the entire game. Coupled with the fact Ganon has very few moves that can hit on opponents on the ledge, and that Ganondorf's uppercut from the Up-B can be used to discourage ledge trumping, his options to hit opponents on the ledge are low. Of course, ledge trumping is still important to discourage ledge stalling. Unfortunately, that's one of the few ways Ganon can discourage ledge-stalling.

Grabs: Ganondorf's main grab in this matchup are the down throw and the forward throw to rack damage. Down throw racks up damage, especially with the new Nair followup. BUT… Up air sends your opponent at an awkward upwards trajectory where you can bait him to use Wizard's Foot or Down Air to try to kill you, especially if you're at a higher percent. Up Throw should be one of those niche moves that you use to throw your opponent off guard.

Edgeguarding: Up air and neutral air are your friends, as they have wide range. If you can, a down B to spike your opponent is another way, but to not die, you have to make sure to get hit by the grab hitbox of the Up-B so you'll get sent away due to the lack of grab armor.

Recovering: The uppercut from Ganon's Up-B can pop past the stage and hit you if you're close enough. Please mix up your recovery a bit and definitely save your jump.


Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. Also, it's weaker than Wizkick but could avoid some projectiles and hits Ganon into an unfavorable position, especially if hitting him off-stage. It also is a guaranteed followup from down throw at lower to mid percents.



Stages to consider:

It's all in your personal preference. Battlefield is great if you're looking for early KOs with an Up-Smash through the platform, while Final Destination is great if you're looking for a simple fight with no gimmicks.



Short Summary of Matchup:

Adapting to your opponent's play style is key. Ganon can be played many different ways, but what remains the same is that you make one mistake, you get big damage. The matchup is riddled with baiting, footsies, and overall Ganon knowledge.

Ganon's not a fast character, and this goes for both ground and air speed. Using that to your advantage is great, but one should not forget they suffer the same issue. What you do have is a great ledge-stall game. It's hard for your opponent to touch you without suffering the dangers of a Ganoncide, as Ganondorf has the lowest positioning on the ledge.

Try to use your second jump efficiently, as it's important for your recovery game. The Up-B is simply not a recovery that has a lot of horizontal reach, so be careful.


CM Ratio of the Matchup: Mirror / 100-0

Ratio of the Matchup: Mirror / 100-0


Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG @Ray_Kalm @Opana @ Z1GMA Gold_TSG @_Magus_ @TheArabSamurai





FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING SHEIK

 

[Xinc]

Bumping; happy holidays, folks. Updated the OP. We're up to Sheik now.

 

[Gold_TSG]

From my experiences, Sheik is almost unwinnable because she beats Dorf in virtually everything but kill power. She has a superior throw game, a superior combo game, she's much faster, much more mobile, and "landing lag" isn't in her vocabulary. DI is extremely important to avoid some of her better combos against Dorf (such as fair strings straight to off stage to be killed by bouncing fish), but he lacks reliable means to safely escape from her. Dorf has no guaranteed follow-ups out of flame choke if she misses the tech, and she can pretty safely edgeguard against him thanks to her far better recovery. She can also poke and zone with needles and an occasional grenade, making it an uphill battle no matter how you look at it.
Really, the only thing Dorf has against Sheik is his power, being able to kill her relatively early. It's all about spacing and being safe with everything he throws out.

If I had to wager a ratio, I'd put it at roughly... 70-30 or 80-20 in Sheik's favor, just going off my own experiences.

 

[Blobface]

I think the most important thing in this matchup is to stay alive. Abuse Sheik's absolutely pathetic power as much as you possibly can. That means being very conservative with your DJ, as it's your lifeline offstage, and losing even one stock early can cost you the match. Sometimes at early percents, you'll just need to eat some damage to avoid being put in a much worse situation.

Patience is the key in this matchup. No matter what happens, you must stay calm and collected. Remember that no matter how bad the match may be going, you only need a few painfully hard-to-land hits to throw it right back at that Naruto-wannabe.

 

[Abbey Street]

Some tips:

• Never dash on approach. Your dash attack should only be used for juggles whenever possible. Keep your shield at the ready to fend off against needles, but be ready to get away from aerial approaches should Sheik resort to forward air and its obnoxious frame 11 autocancel.
  
• At mid-range, a way to read a needle toss is to full-hop into an aerial Flame Choke. The idea is to catch Sheik as she pops back up during the Needle Storm's endlag. Practicing this is strongly recommended, of course, to nail the timing of Choke out of full-hop. Choke too early, and your foot will be caught by the needles; Choke too late, and Sheik gets an opportunity to get out of the way. If you land the aerial Choke, remember that you can hit her with down tilt should she choose to roll away (not grounded choke, however).
  
• You will want to recover low as often as you can against Sheik. High recoveries are easily thwarted with her forward air's huge range, where as with low recoveries you can at least tech some of her crap like back air.
  
• Sheik has a fast fall speed - use this to string together some hits when you can.
  
• Down tilt will outrange everything she has on the ground save her specials.
  
• Be wary of Sheik going for a dashgrab at mid-range - this will be the main tool she will employ to start combos. This becomes something of a rock-paper-scissors scenario between pivot F-tilt, pivot Choke and F-smash depending on how far away she is when she launches the attack - generally, pivot F-tilt is safest, but garners the least reward until high percentages.

 

[Theosmeo]

This is an abysmal MU for Ganon but it's saved by some things that make ZSS and Rosa much worse IMO:
Sheik has no punish game against Ganon simply because she has nothing to punish that she couldn't score free in neutral with and he's too heavy for her to be able to kill easily.
Sheik can be stopped by good reads due to her light weight, plus getting her to rage %s will make her throw combos stop working earlier, making shielding a safe option eventually.
Therefore: in my experience going for crazy yet careful reads center stage leads to a successful game as her punish of a random dsmash is going to be just as bad as a punish of a mistimed spotdodge or something else small. However at higher %s for both characters play it like a basica tricky MU.

 

[adom4]

One thing that's important in the MU is that Nair will almost always beat bouncing fish offstage, so if she's BF happy don't airdodge, Nair.
Also try to recover as low as possible most of the time, Sheik's options to cover super low recoveries are much more limited (mostly to Bair which is relatively easy to tech).

 

[NEStalgia314]

I've found that Nair, since the rework, is much better now for keeping away from a grab-happy opponent, like Shiek, especially with the second kick doing more damage and knockback now.

 

[jmanup85]

You can use nair in neutral better now so we have that going for us. But this match up is one of our worst and it's 65-35 in Sheiks favor. She can camp us with needles and rush us down. Against Sheik you need to get some solid reads and make sure you live long enough to abuse your rage. We do have the benefit of being able to abuse the 2 frame vulnerability on her recovery and it's ready enough to ledge trump her. Imo you wanna avoid SV and you wanna avoid FD against her at all costs.

 

[Shmeckie]

This match is tough, and definitely in Sheik's favor, but anyone saying it's Unwinnable or WAY in Sheik's favor needs to up their game, son! This matchup is all about zen. You are going to spend 2/3 of the match getting smacked around. Don't let it get to you. Don't let it phase you. Keep this simple phrase in mind:

Take the beating, because your hits matter more.

Early in Smash 4, back in the 3DS days, the very first Sheik I fought in FG was god-tier level in skill. I didn't even get a simpler Sheik as a kind of matchup warmup. Nope. First Sheik I fought had probably been attending tournaments since Melee was new. But not only did I win, I 2-stocked him. How could this be, you ask?

Match begins, and I'm getting bodied. Sheik player has 0% and I'm in the 100's. But I keep surviving. Sheik player gets up up high, goes for a kill. I dodge, and aerial flame choke down to the floor. Sheik player rolls away, I read it, choke. Tech chase to 3 more chokes. Sheik escapes the chase, a few seconds later; bam. F-tilt. Kill. Suddenly I'm a stock ahead.

Sheik player pops back in. Full rage mode. F-airs the crap out of me and locks me off the stage. Goes for the kill. I go for a choke. Ganoncide. I win. 2-stocks. Guy leaves.

Ever since then, my eyes were opened, brothers. I got this matchup. The veil had been pulled back, and I saw what I must do. And damn did it ever help, because I've had a good track record against Sheiks as Ganon because of it.

Sheik has gimmicky kill setups, whereas we can kill with basic tilts. And Sheik is so comically light, we probably will. Keep calm, watch for Sheik trying to put you in those situations for kill setups, avoid them, and abuse the moments when you can space her and catch her. Many people say Ganon is about punishing mistakes, and that's why he suffers in high level play, but that's not entirely true. It's not about punishing mistakes, because Ganon can punish the right choice, too. It's not just about "hard-ass reads", you're playing Judo, here. If you're having too much trouble, find some good Sheik players you can train against, or spend some time learning to play her yourself. Learn her moves. Understand her hitboxes, her frame data, her setups. remember you've got a wide variety of disjoints of various sizes on your attacks. Exploit them. Also, the very nature of this matchup means you're going to have rage for most of the fight. Exploit that. Sheik's love to approach with a flurry of SH f-airs. Learn how to beat this. Keep your cool, stay focused, watch for those kill setups, and she'll have to get you into the 200's to kill you. I can attest the majority of deaths I've had against Sheiks have been me brainfarting and forgetting a kill setup. Usually a surprise up-b explosion.

Anyone here watch Dragonball Z? If you do, remember when Mr. Satan fought Cell? Think of that as a caricature of this matchup, and you'll have a much easier time than you may have been.

Matchup is definitely in Sheik's favor, but we have options. Be smart, stay focused, and remember you can take her hits. If you don't think of each hit she lands as a small victory for her (which I know a lot of Ganon players subconsciously are), you'll find this matchup is hardly insurmountable. Stay calm and watch for openings. You don't even need 10 good hits to knock her out most of the time.

 

[Vermanubis]

Just a sort of Sheik breakdown.

Cooldown/whiff: if a Sheik is smart, they'll usually cover their whiffs and shield hits with jab. In other words, be aware that some Sheiks won't try to spotdodge or roll after doing punishable things, since jab is technically a better option.

Ledge options: ledgehop FAir; ledgehop bouncing fish -- you can spotdodge this and punish it.

Approaches: needles; SH Nair, SH FAir -- SH NAir can stop these, but it's obviously easy to bait. These approaches are usually followed by an FTilt, roll or jab. Needles are tough, but just walk and do empty jumps to make Sheik fudge the timing.

Recovery: bouncing fish to the ledge -- walk-off UAir can snag it sometimes. Vanish is unpunishable, but recovering low is a Sheik favorite, so see if you can't hit them before they start the move. BAir won't hit them upon trump, so get creative with your follow-ups if you go for trumps.

Follow-ups: d-throw > bouncing fish, UAir, FAir -- just take the UAirs. Sheiks love baiting airdodges into vanish, so don't divide your attention between looking for vanish and UAirs; take the UAirs and be prepared to react to vanishes.

Landing: Again, smart Sheiks will almost always jump away and bouncing fish, so trying to chase them after launching them's somewhat futile. Wizkick's good for covering her landings though. She has no enormous hitboxes like Ike's FAir which make it difficult to hit her while falling, so she'll usually (probably) try to just reset, except at low percents, where a FAir is to be expected.

Misc: grenade is punishable. If Sheik throws a grenade, just plow through with a DA if you're close enough. Spotdodge predicted bouncing fishes.

70:30 in Sheik's favor, imo. We can land nutty kills, but in general, nothing we do directly addresses the most troublesome aspects of the MU; mostly just reads, patience and waiting for that one stock-taker.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One thing I labbed in case it wasn't obvious, max range aerial Flame Choke can technically be one of your better punishes to needles. It has to be spaced approximately around short hop height, and note that during the actual needle toss animation Sheik ducks down a bit, meaning you're aiming to punish her cooldown after conditioning her to try to needle your landing for doing empty jumps.

 

[super fan bros]

-t must be the worst MU of Ganondorf even the game.

Sheik can easily disorient Ganondorf given the incredible speed of Sheik and the big slow of Ganondorf. Without then talk combos that Sheik has, better recovery, his Down B can easily kill saw poor recovery of Ganondorf and because it is easy to edgeguard. Sheik may also overwhelm Ganondorf away his B neutral and his B side.

The only thing that allows Ganondorf is his ability to kill especially with the rage effect but it is far too insufficient for it is the MU in his favor.

Imo, I will say 90-10 for Sheik

 

[Xinc]

I definitely think there are worse match ups than this one. I'll reach out to the Sheik boards later today. (A lot of stuff happened lately).

Most of the stuff I want to say has already been covered, but saving your second jump is crucial (similar to the Ganon ditto matchup mentioned last week). Shield grabbing once in a while isn't bad either. You have the weight and power to stay alive. Enough power to kill Sheik at ridiculously early percent as well. Gimping her might be difficult though, thanks to vanish, but it has a 1-2 frame vulernability, so feel free to choke offstage as she's recovering for a suicidal kill. lol

 

[jmanup85]

Xinc touched on it but Vanish has the 1-2 frame vulnerability so you have 3 aerials to deal with that mixup in Uair, Bair, and Nair. Alot of what I wanted to say has already been covered though. At this point in time I'm of the opinion that Sheik isn't even in our top 3 hardest match ups. The MU ratio is 65:35 Sheik's favor for sure. You need reads and patience and prayer. Prayer to the Dark Lord Ganondorf that we read her and kill her quick.

 

[Vermanubis]

Not to be blatantly adversarial, but I'd put good money on Sheik being our absolute worst MU. Unlike other awful ones like Rosa and Villager, against which we do have direct answers, sparse though they may be, against Sheik, as many of us have noted, we need reads. The MU is 100% reads, and they're reads involving things a top-level Sheik would get hit by every one out of a hundred times.

I have to warn against getting into the habit of seeing MUs as more favorable than they really are because of Ganon's off-chance to land a yolo Fsmash. I notice this frequently, in that which one of Ganon's best cases against an awful MU is "but a read can take a stock." True though this may be, MU ratios are ideal comparisons rather than probablistic distributions of how often someone's going to do something incredibly risky/dumb.

 

[Theosmeo]

I think ZSS is worse than sheik, her grabs on us are so free and once she realizes how difficult it is for us to punish paralyzer she can go to town. Sheik actually has more trouble killing as we take more % because her combos connect less effectively.

 

[WwwWario]

I feel nothing in unwinnable. Even for Ganon. Sheik might be able to throw Ganon around like a balloon, and she might space us with needles and force us to approach, but even if she lands many hits, it really doesn't do that much damage to us. Even if she lands many Fair combos, those will stale. If she does it often, her Fairs will only do 2% damage O.o

Patience really is key here. I feel Nair is very good here, as it has good range and priority, and Sheik likes the air. Bouncing Fish is probably her best kill move, and even though she has setups for it, she struggles to kill. Ganon can kill with a few hits on a lightweight like Sheik, especially if they get caught in a Flame Choke chain. Therefore, it's really all about patience, and slowly walk up to them like the disrespectful, fearsome King of Evil we are.

 

[Vermanubis]

I certainly wouldn't call it unwinnable either, but I'm just cautioning against oversimplying her. Sheik shares a particular annoying trait with Falcon, in that which she's so fast, she forces us to play reactively. That is, for example, while NAir is a good answer for aerial approaches, you still have to guess correctly when she's going to approach, lest you get baited.

As for ZSS, she's definitely up there, but some things to consider:

-We can land against her (easier than against Sheik, anyway)
-Her grab is punishable and I'd argue against it being free
-Paralyzer is hard to punish itself, but it's basically an invitation to close the gap
-ZSS can't really gimp us the way Sheik can

 

[Theosmeo]

I certainly wouldn't call it unwinnable either, but I'm just cautioning against oversimplying her. Sheik shares a particular annoying trait with Falcon, in that which she's so fast, she forces us to play reactively. That is, for example, while NAir is a good answer for aerial approaches, you still have to guess correctly when she's going to approach, lest you get baited.

As for ZSS, she's definitely up there, but some things to consider:

-We can land against her (easier than against Sheik, anyway)
-Her grab is punishable and I'd argue against it being free
-Paralyzer is hard to punish itself, but it's basically an invitation to close the gap
-ZSS can't really gimp us the way Sheik can

Alright that's fair, I've played alot of good ZSSs so maybe that's skewing my viewpoint somewhat

 

[Gold_TSG]

To add to this, don't forget that fair staling doesn't actually hurt Sheik all that much. The less damage it does, the less KB it has, meaning she knocks Dorf less distance away, leading to easier follow ups. BF being her best kill option against us isn't something to be ignored either, due to how easy it is for her to get Dorf off stage, especially with how little lag it has if it connects. Grenade disrupts here and there, needles poke and rack up damage if you aren't careful, uair can be dangerous if we survive that long.

There's really next to nothing that Dorf can do to answer her options. Most attempts that are misread on our end will turn into a free grab, which is very bad.

 

[Shmeckie]

Dorf can do quite a bit, actually, though it's dependent on the strategies the Sheik player is using, rather than guaranteed, universal strategies. Find out what approaches they rely on most, and if they play more passively and aggressively. The easiest way we can score hits in this MU is when she's looking for a kill. Sheik's kill options range from gimmicky to risky.

Also BF isn't terribly hard to deal with. New n-air can intercept it, and I'm pretty sure u-air has always been able to do so. I'd have to check again, but I'm pretty sure DA deals with a lot of her approaches, too. Any Ganon main should be proficient in powershielding, which should help with the needles some, although if you're close enough you can punish needles with a jump-in.

As for f-air stalling being in her favor, Dorf's still going to be getting into higher %s, so any advantage to lower knockback is moot. If anyone's getting 0-death'd by Sheik, it may be time to take your Ganon back to the lab. You should not be losing a single stock until you're well into the 100's.

I agree with the assessment that it's 65-35. Be patient, stay focused, watch for the right opening, and you'll be fine.

Also I wanna bring up customs; I do believe customs may even things up a bit. Dropkick helps with approaches and gives us that recovery (as well as a combo from d-throw), and Dark Fists brings that OoS kill option. Dropkick may damn near remove her needles as a liability. I don't think Sheik has any customs that significantly up her game, whereas we have two that are total game changers.

 

[adom4]

I would say Sheik is still a bit easier than Sonic or Pikachu mostly because her hurtbox isn't as tall as an ant & that she doesn't edgeguard us for free like Pikachu or Villager do, not much to say really try to get the stock lead and then camp like hell.

 

[Theosmeo]

Dorf can do quite a bit, actually, though it's dependent on the strategies the Sheik player is using, rather than guaranteed, universal strategies. Find out what approaches they rely on most, and if they play more passively and aggressively. The easiest way we can score hits in this MU is when she's looking for a kill. Sheik's kill options range from gimmicky to risky.

Also BF isn't terribly hard to deal with. New n-air can intercept it, and I'm pretty sure u-air has always been able to do so. I'd have to check again, but I'm pretty sure DA deals with a lot of her approaches, too. Any Ganon main should be proficient in powershielding, which should help with the needles some, although if you're close enough you can punish needles with a jump-in.

As for f-air stalling being in her favor, Dorf's still going to be getting into higher %s, so any advantage to lower knockback is moot. If anyone's getting 0-death'd by Sheik, it may be time to take your Ganon back to the lab. You should not be losing a single stock until you're well into the 100's.

I agree with the assessment that it's 65-35. Be patient, stay focused, watch for the right opening, and you'll be fine.

Also I wanna bring up customs; I do believe customs may even things up a bit. Dropkick helps with approaches and gives us that recovery (as well as a combo from d-throw), and Dark Fists brings that OoS kill option. Dropkick may damn near remove her needles as a liability. I don't think Sheik has any customs that significantly up her game, whereas we have two that are total game changers.

Gravity grenades and shield breaking needles tho

 

[super fan bros]

I think ZSS is worse than sheik, her grabs on us are so free and once she realizes how difficult it is for us to punish paralyzer she can go to town. Sheik actually has more trouble killing as we take more % because her combos connect less effectively.

Not really because of grab of ZSS is punishable in case of failure, and Ganondorf can severely punish with his Fsmash for example

 

[Z1GMA]

BAir won't hit them upon trump, so get creative with your follow-ups if you go for trumps.

BAir definitely hits Sheik. The timing is just more demanding.

Unless she can Wall Jump.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I agree with the assessment that it's 65-35. Be patient, stay focused, watch for the right opening, and you'll probably still lose.

Fixed

 

[Vermanubis]

BAir definitely hits Sheik. The timing is just more demanding.

Unless she can Wall Jump.

You sure, Zig? I think the problem isn't so much timing, rather, Sheik just goes too high.

https://youtu.be/eF_EonoaksE?t=7m3s -- when I trump this guy, Sheik goes way higher than Ganon can reach.

Here's a better example, since he jumps immediately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vMo1xSXGbs#t=1m10s

 

[Z1GMA]

You sure, Zig? I think the problem isn't so much timing, rather, Sheik just goes too high.

https://youtu.be/eF_EonoaksE?t=7m3s -- when I trump this guy, Sheik goes way higher than Ganon can reach.

Here's a better example, since he jumps immediately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vMo1xSXGbs#t=1m10s

I'm 666% sure.

If you trump ASAP after she grabs the ledge and Bair ASAP, you get her before she gets too high.

 

[Abbey Street]

I can confirm Z1GMA's findings about ledge trump.

Sometimes helps if you time your ledgegrab as soon as you possibly can after Sheik's. That way ledge trump delay can potentially kick in and it gives you more of a window to whack her with the backhand.

 

[Theosmeo]

I've gotten ledge trump Uair tip on sheik before, she had also already used her bouncing fish so she had to vanish and I could go for the 2 frame ganoncide, felt good

 

[HeavyLobster]

I would say Sheik is still a bit easier than Sonic or Pikachu mostly because her hurtbox isn't as tall as an ant & that she doesn't edgeguard us for free like Pikachu or Villager do, not much to say really try to get the stock lead and then camp like hell.

Sonic and Pika are probably our hardest because the recent changes we've gotten really do help vs. tall characters, but do very little to help beat shorter ones, and in some cases can make them tougher. Sheik is pretty nasty though and the MU is mostly guesswork.

 

[adom4]

Sonic and Pika are probably our hardest because the recent changes we've gotten really do help vs. tall characters, but do very little to help beat shorter ones, and in some cases can make them tougher. Sheik is pretty nasty though and the MU is mostly guesswork.

Pikachu pretty much stayed the same since he was too short to get hit reliably by Nair even before the change, Fair spacing is better against him anyway.

Also IMO the most important thing to remember against Sheik: ALWAYS SAVE YOUR DOUBLE JUMP!!
Seriously i cannot emphasize this enough, if we have our second jump recovering becomes much much easier against her & her edgeguarding isn't nearly as scary, also try to recover as low as possible because of 2 big reasons:
1. Vanish shenanigans
2. her options to cover low recoveries are much more limited.
Nothing wrong with mixing up here and there but generally recovering as low as possible is the best option.

 

[Xinc]

Pikachu pretty much stayed the same since he was too short to get hit reliably by Nair even before the change, Fair spacing is better against him anyway.

Also IMO the most important thing to remember against Sheik: ALWAYS SAVE YOUR DOUBLE JUMP!!
Seriously i cannot emphasize this enough, if we have our second jump recovering becomes much much easier against her & her edgeguarding isn't nearly as scary, also try to recover as low as possible because of 2 big reasons:
1. Vanish shenanigans
2. her options to cover low recoveries are much more limited.
Nothing wrong with mixing up here and there but generally recovering as low as possible is the best option.

Going to add onto this. I totally agree because of Vanish and not as many good ways to cover low recoveries. If you want to lower your descent even more and you're at a reasonably high height, you can also use Wizkick. The aerial version's last few frames can be auto canceled and you can recover, while still hitting Sheik. That's if you're feeling gutsy.

 

[Spark31]

Dorf can do quite a bit, actually, though it's dependent on the strategies the Sheik player is using, rather than guaranteed, universal strategies. Find out what approaches they rely on most, and if they play more passively and aggressively. The easiest way we can score hits in this MU is when she's looking for a kill. Sheik's kill options range from gimmicky to risky.

Also BF isn't terribly hard to deal with. New n-air can intercept it, and I'm pretty sure u-air has always been able to do so. I'd have to check again, but I'm pretty sure DA deals with a lot of her approaches, too. Any Ganon main should be proficient in powershielding, which should help with the needles some, although if you're close enough you can punish needles with a jump-in.

As for f-air stalling being in her favor, Dorf's still going to be getting into higher %s, so any advantage to lower knockback is moot. If anyone's getting 0-death'd by Sheik, it may be time to take your Ganon back to the lab. You should not be losing a single stock until you're well into the 100's.

I agree with the assessment that it's 65-35. Be patient, stay focused, watch for the right opening, and you'll be fine.

Also I wanna bring up customs; I do believe customs may even things up a bit. Dropkick helps with approaches and gives us that recovery (as well as a combo from d-throw), and Dark Fists brings that OoS kill option. Dropkick may damn near remove her needles as a liability. I don't think Sheik has any customs that significantly up her game, whereas we have two that are total game changers.

I really think that one thing your certainly overestimating in your analysis is your neutral game. You say all these things under the assumption that the sheik will be approaching you. This is not the case most of the time. Any smart sheik player will force an approach from Gannon using her spacing tools. You also underestimate her kill options out of grab. Sheik can easily get 50-50 kills off of down throw, and most Gannon's don't know how to deal with down throw -> vanish. I think your vastly overestimating elements of your character

 

[MagiusNecros]

This is a bad matchup for Ganon unless the Sheik player is bad. I don't think top level Sheik's can be beaten unless they make the biggest mistake of their life. And the few times I had the luxury of playing a good Sheik off FG as Ganon in the past well it wasn't pretty. At all.