Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Z1GMA]

A hard MU, but not unwinnable. Trades REALLY hurt, from her Point of view.
Out of all characters in the game, Sheik is one of the hardest to put that "Ganon Fear" into, but if you manage to do that, it's great. Make her doubt herself. It's hard, but it can be done.
It's easy to hit her when she grabs the ledge with up+B if you put you lingering Nair there, but watch out fort the possible explosion and don't let that Stage Spike you.
30 : 70

There are harder MUs, imo.

 

[mgleed]

Despite the low quality, I think this video of Opana playing Zero is relevant.

 

[Shmeckie]

I really think that one thing your certainly overestimating in your analysis is your neutral game. You say all these things under the assumption that the sheik will be approaching you. This is not the case most of the time. Any smart sheik player will force an approach from Gannon using her spacing tools. You also underestimate her kill options out of grab. Sheik can easily get 50-50 kills off of down throw, and most Gannon's don't know how to deal with down throw -> vanish. I think your vastly overestimating elements of your character

Your initial mistake is factoring in "most Ganons won't know". Many of them will, and that's important.

No Ganon worth his salt is going to rush in, going full YOLO, just because he's being annoyed by needles. Baiting, punishing, and patience is our game. You're more likely to get a slower approach, watching for openings, than a Ganon running in trying to score an offensive first strike like he's Captain Falcon

 

[Spark31]

Your initial mistake is factoring in "most Ganons won't know". Many of them will, and that's important.

No Ganon worth his salt is going to rush in, going full YOLO, just because he's being annoyed by needles. Baiting, punishing, and patience is our game. You're more likely to get a slower approach, watching for openings, than a Ganon running in trying to score an offensive first strike like he's Captain Falcon

Your initial mistake is factoring in "most Ganons won't know". Many of them will, and that's important.

No Ganon worth his salt is going to rush in, going full YOLO, just because he's being annoyed by needles. Baiting, punishing, and patience is our game. You're more likely to get a slower approach, watching for openings, than a Ganon running in trying to score an offensive first strike like he's Captain Falcon

You make a lot of assumptions here. First of all, I didn't say, "Most Ganons won't know". I said "Most Ganons DON'T know." Pretty big difference there. In my experience, after you forward throw to fair a couple times, 90% of gannon players will just spam air dodge after every throw. To be frank, it makes it hard to take your claim seriously. Also, I'm well aware that no gannon is going to run in full yolo, but they have literally no approach game aside from the rare down or side special, which is easy to beat if fairs are spaced correctly. You make the assumption that Sheiks are going to approach you, which lets you follow up into punish. In reality, few Sheiks worth their salt will ever approach a Gannon, and even then it's only as a mixup. They have no need to. They can literally camp Gannon out and Gannon has very little in terms of approach options. Not to mention that Sheik's speed and specials make it extremely easy counter any approach option Gannon has on reaction.

 

[Vermanubis]

You make a lot of assumptions here. First of all, I didn't say, "Most Ganons won't know". I said "Most Ganons DON'T know." Pretty big difference there. In my experience, after you forward throw to fair a couple times, 90% of gannon players will just spam air dodge after every throw. To be frank, it makes it hard to take your claim seriously. Also, I'm well aware that no gannon is going to run in full yolo, but they have literally no approach game aside from the rare down or side special, which is easy to beat if fairs are spaced correctly. You make the assumption that Sheiks are going to approach you, which lets you follow up into punish. In reality, few Sheiks worth their salt will ever approach a Gannon, and even then it's only as a mixup. They have no need to. They can literally camp Gannon out and Gannon has very little in terms of approach options. Not to mention that Sheik's speed and specials make it extremely easy counter any approach option Gannon has on reaction.

I'm always glad when someone from another board comes to give their perspective.

Though I admire our Ganonic optimism, I'd be remiss to say it doesn't sometimes lend us to unrealistic and romantic notions of how a MU will be played out against someone whose prime directive is to win, even if it means a needle at a time.

I think this is a good (though admittedly imperfect) example of how Sheik can manipulate our reactions and force us to commit to things. In spite of winning, I think it's fair to say that nothing I did could be considered a direct answer to what Sheik was doing; just lots of guessing. Like you said, as well, I think Sheik's KO potential is wrongly underestimated. Like with <anyone> she's not so good at killing past a certain %, but this idea that we'll be living routinely far longer than she will is a bit misled. Any yolo kills we get, Sheik stands an equal if not greater chance of getting with gimps, so I don't consider moves Ganon can't consistently land as really reliable gauges for how early we can expect to end a Sheik stock.

Upon further thought though, I do think we have worse MUs, but it's difficult to gauge, because the problems manifest in very different ways. I'd be comfortable putting Sheik, Rosa, Villager in no order as our worst, with Pika following closely. Sonic I can't comment on, but I feel like while he's massively annoying, he can't really overwhelm us and aside from grabs directly next to the ledge, can't really kill us very well.

 

[HeavyLobster]

but they have literally no approach game aside from the rare down or side special

You need to stop playing FG if you think those are Ganon's only or even primary approach options, not that the ones he does have are going to be much more effective vs Sheik. Really this MU is one where you need to cash in on a couple of hard reads to win a tourney set against a quality Sheik, regardless of how smart or precise you play otherwise. Pika I'd put in the same boat, and Sonic is probably similar, though he can't end you quite as well. This is a good MU to have a secondary for.

 

[Opana]

Oh man that video is so old now lol...still hype though. I guess I'll contribute my thoughts while you got my attention lol.

I think it's either 65 or 70 Sheik from`my offline exp. You need to be a really reactionary player I think to even compete with a Sheik, and that holds true for dorf mains as well. She can play it so safe in this mu it's crazy, I mean to willingly take dorf into this mu is taking a giant gamble. I feel like this in many mus so a lot of the time I don't feel comfortable giving a ratio. What's really essential here though is paying close attention to their patterns, realistically if they have a strong mix up game and we can't get those reads then we're screwed. On the plus side if we do, we can realistically kill her in the late mid percent range(although she can really abuse our recovery and kill earlier). We have a rough time doing much of anything to her offstage too, it really comes down to trumping and the mind games involved with them plus the potential to punish her 2 frame ledge vulnerability provided they recover low. Idk guys, I mean as I type this it seems super unrealistic to go toe to toe with Sheik, and really it is, but if we get some solid reads and are super aware in theory we can take them down. An mu so reliant on reads though can't be any less than 70 in their favor though imo, so I'm gonna go with that. I have beaten Sheiks in tourney. and while they're competent they don't abuse his recovery, maybe I just intimidate people lol, but regardless of that if they properly abused his weaknesses we'd need to be mix up gods(really though when aren't we we use ganondorf we ain't getting by doing the same thing lol).

tldr 70:30 Sheik's favor would not recommend using him if you can help it as it's a very unreliable and unrealistic mu.

 

[jmanup85]

Definitely in the top 5 of our worst match ups. The ratio imo is 65:35 in Sheik's favor. I'm in no way saying she's easy or anything like that because she isn't easy at all. But there are a few characters that are harder to deal with. Pick whichever dark deity Ganondorf prays to and join him for a quick prayer because we are gonna need it.

 

[Shmeckie]

I wouldn't say to pray for help 'cause you'll need it, but you do need to play extra careful and smart in this MU. I think that Opana vs ZeRo video was a pretty good demonstration of the match as a whole. Sheik holds it down, Ganon stays competitive with some well-placed single strikes, Sheik has a the better chance of winning. Ganon doesn't have anything to really force Sheik into doing what he wants, or being where he wants, like he can with several other characters, but he's not walled out, either. People are getting discouraged and treating this matchup like they're playing Vega against Akuma in Super Turbo, here.

It's a rough matchup, but some of y'all are acting like we're totally screwed. Far from it. We've got the tools to win it, it's just hard.

 

[Opana]

Personally I'd say Pika is worse, yet I see 75 too high(I prefer increments of 5 rather than things like 73 lol)

 

[Theosmeo]

In my experience, after you forward throw to fair a couple times, 90% of gannon players will just spam air dodge after every throw.

I think most Ganon players won't do this because they know Sheik has many ways to punish an air dodge. Nair and Uair and even just taking punishment are way better options. You've likely been playing people with novelty Ganon's who don't entirely commit to learning him, because if you can't realize that jump away and air dodge are bad options against sheik (this applies to most characters, not exclusively Ganon) you don't have the level of meticulousness and care that Ganon requires.

 

[jmanup85]

I wouldn't say to pray for help 'cause you'll need it, but you do need to play extra careful and smart in this MU. I think that Opana vs ZeRo video was a pretty good demonstration of the match as a whole. Sheik holds it down, Ganon stays competitive with some well-placed single strikes, Sheik has a the better chance of winning. Ganon doesn't have anything to really force Sheik into doing what he wants, or being where he wants, like he can with several other characters, but he's not walled out, either. People are getting discouraged and treating this matchup like they're playing Vega against Akuma in Super Turbo, here.

It's a rough matchup, but some of y'all are acting like we're totally screwed. Far from it. We've got the tools to win it, it's just hard.

The prayer part was more of a joke than anything. Is it a hard match up? Damn skippy it is. Is it an unwinnable nightmare that we have no chance in? Absolutely not. I don't believe it's a 7:3 MU either simply because there are maybe 2 or 3 harder match ups for Ganon. The problem is that those other match ups are harder for different reasons. With Sheik, as Verm pointed out, it's pretty much one giant guessing game and punishing with the appropriate response. Sheik doesn't have to play by our rules at all which makes things annoying. This isn't Brawl where we're just doomed in certain match ups, we can do it but just be prepared for one hell of a climb. On that note we should all be thankful that this isn't patch 1.0 because Sheik was worse back then.

 

[Spark31]

I wouldn't say to pray for help 'cause you'll need it, but you do need to play extra careful and smart in this MU. I think that Opana vs ZeRo video was a pretty good demonstration of the match as a whole. Sheik holds it down, Ganon stays competitive with some well-placed single strikes, Sheik has a the better chance of winning. Ganon doesn't have anything to really force Sheik into doing what he wants, or being where he wants, like he can with several other characters, but he's not walled out, either. People are getting discouraged and treating this matchup like they're playing Vega against Akuma in Super Turbo, here.

It's a rough matchup, but some of y'all are acting like we're totally screwed. Far from it. We've got the tools to win it, it's just hard.

I'm not saying your totally screwed. You just have EXTREMELY limited options when it comes to your approach, and no good Sheik will ever approach Gannon often. So you're pretty much forced to approach against most patient Sheik players. I won't say it's your worst MU (That's probably
Pikachu), but it's a clean 70-30 in Sheik's favor.

You need to stop playing FG if you think those are Ganon's only or even primary approach options, not that the ones he does have are going to be much more effective vs Sheik. Really this MU is one where you need to cash in on a couple of hard reads to win a tourney set against a quality Sheik, regardless of how smart or precise you play otherwise. Pika I'd put in the same boat, and Sonic is probably similar, though he can't end you quite as well. This is a good MU to have a secondary for.

People tend to underestimate the difficulty of getting a "hard read" on a good player in a tournament set. Against top level players, the closest you'll get to a hard read is covering all options they are more likely to use, as opposed to getting a YOLO f-smash. Also, note that I don't get a crap-ton of offline Gannon experience outside of one player. I play with a guy named Peridot who mains Gannon, but that's about it. His habits may not necessarily align with most Gannon habits. However, online all the Gannons I've played really don't have comprehension of not air dodging.

I think most Ganon players won't do this because they know Sheik has many ways to punish an air dodge. Nair and Uair and even just taking punishment are way better options. You've likely been playing people with novelty Ganon's who don't entirely commit to learning him, because if you can't realize that jump away and air dodge are bad options against sheik (this applies to most characters, not exclusively Ganon) you don't have the level of meticulousness and care that Ganon requires.

I find it kinda funny that you say that jump and air dodge are bad options against Sheik. Off of down throw at higher percents (100-120 depending on rage) those are literally your only options for dealing with up air, which can kill depending on staleness and rage. Even if you win the 50-50 you don't get too much mileage off of it, if you air dodge your landing will be caught with a fair and if you jump you're positioning becomes extremely unfavorable. People really tend to underestimate Sheik's kill power.

 

[jmanup85]

I find it kinda funny that you say that jump and air dodge are bad options against Sheik. Off of down throw at higher percents (100-120 depending on rage) those are literally your only options for dealing with up air, which can kill depending on staleness and rage. Even if you win the 50-50 you don't get too much mileage off of it, if you air dodge your landing will be caught with a fair and if you jump you're positioning becomes extremely unfavorable. People really tend to underestimate Sheik's kill power.

The truly funny part is that at first you start talking about F-throw to fair and that's what he responded to but then you change it to D-throw into uair. Because after reading through this conversation it seemed obvious to me that that's what's going on.

 

[Theosmeo]

I find it kinda funny that you say that jump and air dodge are bad options against Sheik. Off of down throw at higher percents (100-120 depending on rage) those are literally your only options for dealing with up air, which can kill depending on staleness and rage. Even if you win the 50-50 you don't get too much mileage off of it, if you air dodge your landing will be caught with a fair and if you jump you're positioning becomes extremely unfavorable. People really tend to underestimate Sheik's kill power.

What jmanup said, and I know for a fact that without platforms or rage Sheiks upair will not kill ganon at 120%, after that Ganon's Nair, which comes out only 3 frames after airdodge, beats sheiks upair. Ganon it definitely slow enough that sheik can kill him many other ways, but this is not as great an option as it is for most characters.

I'm not saying we win, but I do think that in a matchup study you need to assume optimal play from the other player, and you aren't really doing that. I'd suggest finding one of the better Ganon players here who's willing to have a match with you, and you might learn a lot!

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't know the exact numbers, but with good DI, the Sheik I posted a vid of earlier killed me at 135% with UAir while at 73% himself.

Everyone's making good points, but there're three things in particular I want to point out aside from the one I did above:

1. It would be a something of a miracle if NAir discouraged Sheik's UAir. It's usually either too fast, or at an angle a Sheik will never try to hit with a UAir.

2. Sparky pointed out what I've pointed out a few times, and that's that we can't be using hard reads as a reliable measure of MU success. As often as Sheik is in the air and the unavailability of choke follow-ups nullifies choke, for one.

3. Sheik gives us a harder time landing than almost anyone because of grabs. Sheik also, until about 140%, puts us in 50-50s every time she dthrows us between UAir and vanish.

Assuming optimal play, as Theo mentioned, is definitely a good idea. I do think Sparky should consider that high-level Ganons aren't quite <that> quick to fall to pieces, but I also think that Sheik's ability to consistently frame trap us and her lack of obligation to ever approach (esp. when we're at high percents when needles can put us in awful positions) gets overshadowed by somewhat romantic notions of hard reads.

 

[TheArabSamurai]

I'm interested to know what you guys prefer for stages in this match-up. I know you definitely wanna avoid Final Destination like the plague here, with Shiek's superior mobility and needles, she dominates on flatter stages (The exception being Smashville which I will touch on later). With Town & City being a rather long in stage size and its platforms placed at an awkward position, makes it hard to maneuver around needles. Also with Town & City having a low ceiling, Shiek can seal stocks reliably with up airs at lower percents than usual.

I'd imagine with Shiek's 50-50, down throw up-air, she'll prefer lower ceilings to secure stocks earlier, so stages with higher ceilings like Battlefield could definitely help us abuse this game's rage mechanics. With Battlefield, you can also maneuver around needles using the platforms. Furthermore, you can attempt to go for some Tip 'N Slide (Or was it Slip N Slide...?) shenanigans that @Blobface showed off a few months ago.

Oddly enough, I kind of like Duck Hunt for this match up as well, jumping to the trees allows you to reset neutral. This match up can get a little overwhelming at times with just how fast and agile Shiek can be.

Smashville is the only exception of a flat stage that Ganon does relatively okay on in this match up. Since the stage is smaller in size, Ganon's mobility isn't too much of an issue, and using the moving platforms to avoid needles is a nice bonus.

As for Dreamland, I can see it favoring Shiek more so than Ganon. Ganon's movement feels different than on Battlefield. In order to get onto Dreamland's platforms, you have to jump higher than you do on Battlefield. On Battlefield, to get onto a side platform, you can do so in one full hop. On Dreamland, you have to sacrifice both your jumps. I can see Shiek extended her combos further on this stage moreso than Ganon could abuse it. Also, having a smaller blast zone could go either way really, it ceiling is FD height, but if she can get a 50-50 down throw conversion kill off a platform, thats a stock secured at an earlier percent range. That being said, our aerial attacks can clip through the platform from the base, so on this stage the match up can go eitherway, but it might slightly favor Shiek.

Lylat is another stage that I can see go either way, both side platforms can be reached with one full hop. The stage can be really good for extending strings of aerial attacks, definitely one worth exploring and a stage I can see benefiting Ganon.

I think our best stages here is Battlefield and Smashville, while Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise could be worth exploring. Dreamland is kind of neutral, although could give a slight advantage to Shiek, while Final Destination and Town & City should be avoided.

 

[adom4]

I'm interested to know what you guys prefer for stages in this match-up. I know you definitely wanna avoid Final Destination like the plague here, with Shiek's superior mobility and needles, she dominates on flatter stages (The exception being Smashville which I will touch on later). With Town & City being a rather long in stage size and its platforms placed at an awkward position, makes it hard to maneuver around needles. Also with Town & City having a low ceiling, Shiek can seal stocks reliably with up airs at lower percents than usual.

I'd imagine with Shiek's 50-50, down throw up-air, she'll prefer lower ceilings to secure stocks earlier, so stages with higher ceilings like Battlefield could definitely help us abuse this game's rage mechanics. With Battlefield, you can also maneuver around needles using the platforms. Furthermore, you can attempt to go for some Tip 'N Slide (Or was it Slip N Slide...?) shenanigans that @Blobface showed off a few months ago.

Oddly enough, I kind of like Duck Hunt for this match up as well, jumping to the trees allows you to reset neutral. This match up can get a little overwhelming at times with just how fast and agile Shiek can be.

Smashville is the only exception of a flat stage that Ganon does relatively okay on in this match up. Since the stage is smaller in size, Ganon's mobility isn't too much of an issue, and using the moving platforms to avoid needles is a nice bonus.

As for Dreamland, I can see it favoring Shiek more so than Ganon. Ganon's movement feels different than on Battlefield. In order to get onto Dreamland's platforms, you have to jump higher than you do on Battlefield. On Battlefield, to get onto a side platform, you can do so in one full hop. On Dreamland, you have to sacrifice both your jumps. I can see Shiek extended her combos further on this stage moreso than Ganon could abuse it. Also, having a smaller blast zone could go either way really, it ceiling is FD height, but if she can get a 50-50 down throw conversion kill off a platform, thats a stock secured at an earlier percent range. That being said, our aerial attacks can clip through the platform from the base, so on this stage the match up can go eitherway, but it might slightly favor Shiek.

Lylat is another stage that I can see go either way, both side platforms can be reached with one full hop. The stage can be really good for extending strings of aerial attacks, definitely one worth exploring and a stage I can see benefiting Ganon.

I think our best stages here is Battlefield and Smashville, while Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise could be worth exploring. Dreamland is kind of neutral, although could give a slight advantage to Shiek, while Final Destination and Town & City should be avoided.

SV isn't good at all, the platform extends her combos and generally it's her best stage, usually i like BF and lylat against her.

 

[Opana]

I like fd because I read needle habits well and I feel like I can reach the ground easier(definitely still tough though). Landing on a platform is a really disadvantageous position in for both sides, which I don't mind, but the other non bf platform stages benefit her while contributing much less to us.

I usually try to go to bf, fd, lylat, and rarely dl/sv. I know sv is bad but if I feel confident on it I won't ban it. I usually try and ban dl and tnc more than anything though for their low ceilings

 

[Xinc]

I like fd because I read needle habits well and I feel like I can reach the ground easier(definitely still tough though). Landing on a platform is a really disadvantageous position in for both sides, which I don't mind, but the other non bf platform stages benefit her while contributing much less to us.

I usually try to go to bf, fd, lylat, and rarely dl/sv. I know sv is bad but if I feel confident on it I won't ban it. I usually try and ban dl and tnc more than anything though for their low ceilings

I definitely say that BF and Lylat are our best choices, due to our long-reaching up air and quick back air, as well as the ability to reach both side platforms really easily. I definitely would be very wary about that platform on SV and I generally want to ban T&C, but T&C is doable as well, I feel. The large base of the stage helps Sheik, but don't the somewhat smaller blast zones help us?

T&C is probably not an ideal choice, but it's doable v Sheik IMO

 

[TheArabSamurai]

I definitely say that BF and Lylat are our best choices, due to our long-reaching up air and quick back air, as well as the ability to reach both side platforms really easily. I definitely would be very wary about that platform on SV and I generally want to ban T&C, but T&C is doable as well, I feel. The large base of the stage helps Sheik, but don't the somewhat smaller blast zones help us?

T&C is probably not an ideal choice, but it's doable v Sheik IMO

Smaller blast zones generally help us, but it can be a double edged sword in this match up. With Shiek's feather weight and our kill options, we generally don't have to worry about smaller blast zones. We can still kill her at relative easy on stages with larger blast zones. It really depends on how confident you are against your opponent, but you wanna avoid taking that risk.

 

[Theosmeo]

T&C makes it much easier for sheik to put us on the high platforms and Dthrow/Ftilt > Uair us. I'm not a fan

 

[Abbey Street]

For 3DS stages:

In starters you may want to ban FD. There really isn't much of a reason to subject yourself to the inevitable torture of needle camps, and you've got better options anyway, but if it's a comfort pick, then do it.

Battlefield is a pretty desirable stage in this matchup, as it is in the other version. High ceiling, abuse of rage mechanics, etc. The only thing you can't really do on 3DS battlefield is wizkick spike through ledge due to how the ledges on this Battlefield work, but that's only a small thing.

Yoshi's Island is pretty good for Ganondorf in this MU. Lots of slanted platforms for favorable tech-chases (note: if you're facing downhill and score an unteched choke on Sheik, you may be able to D-tilt her out of it depending on the angle of the platform). Big Randy can also lend a hand in your recovery if you suffer a quality fair chain. Just much easier to recover overall on this stage.

I think that Arena Ferox is undoubtedly the best stage for Ganondorf against Sheik. Use the high ceiling and different stage transitions, especially the ones with caves of life to really mess with Sheik's combos. Some walls and Castle Siege-esque statues that occasionally appear will also negate needles. You can also hit her through many solid platforms and walls while she can not do the same to you.

Prism Tower? Ban it. Just get it off the table as soon as it appears. Everything in this stage benefits Sheik except for maybe the small side blast zones. She even gets a walkoff to use to Fair chain you to your death.

Duck Hunt is also pretty legit for a stage since it can help you get around stale moves when you need to play more defensively. Since a lot of the fight is onstage, this works out to an extent in your favor as well (but makes early kills for her slightly easier). High blast zones are also nice. Not the first stage I'd run to, especially not over Yoshi's or Ferox, but it's not too bad for Ganondorf.

Dream Land is Battlefield with a lower ceiling. Some say it's easier for Ganondorf to abuse rage here and that outweighs the low ceiling potentially becoming a factor, but I dunno. Not my cup of tea to make kills off the top easier for her.

TL;DR:
3DS stages from best to worst for Ganon - Arena Ferox, Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, Duck Hunt, Dream Land, Final Destination, Prism Tower.
Green = most likely to be banned by Sheik; red = You'll want to ban these.

Will update in February as Umbra Clock Tower might become legal.

 

[Opana]

Tnc is too big, benefits her dthrow mixups, and landing on the platforms puts us in a rough spot while not helping us as much, Any benefit we may have there I feel benefits her more. Imo it's the worst stage to bring her too, followed by sv then dl. Top 3 would be bf, lylat, and fd in that order imo.

 

[Spark31]

Tnc is too big, benefits her dthrow mixups, and landing on the platforms puts us in a rough spot while not helping us as much, Any benefit we may have there I feel benefits her more. Imo it's the worst stage to bring her too, followed by sv then dl. Top 3 would be bf, lylat, and fd in that order imo.

Lylat is a nice pick IMO. the platforms aren't too high as to increase kill percents high for Sheik, and the turning of the stage can make needles ineffective.

 

[Swoops]

I pretty much ALWAYS ban FD.

I just think platforms greatly help with Ganon's lack of aerial movement and mix ups, so I'll generally take any platforms over no platforms. Feels like once you take away that element, all of his options become much more transparent and 2 dimensional

There's a few match ups where I don't mind keeping it on the table, mainly because I'm not worried about the character/opponent. Otherwise I CP Lylat...or BF if they banned Lylat.

 

[Gold_TSG]

This is reply number 666 in this thread. May our dark lord come to us and deliver us from Sheik!

 

[DavemanCozy]

Discussing the dark lord vs the wily fox in the Fox board;

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...-kirby-ganondorf.393061/page-12#post-20640252

vs

 

[Xinc]

It looks like we have a good understanding of the MU. Please feel free to elaborate while I continue to write up the analysis, which should be up by Friday.

 

[Xinc]

It looks like we have a good understanding of the MU. Please feel free to elaborate while I continue to write up the analysis, which should be up by Friday.

Gonna bump this. There's a LOT of information and even though I have the majority of it, I still need to make a tl;dr and the stage preferences. I'll have this up tomorrow (Saturday evening) instead.

Sorry for the folks who are eagerly awaiting their Sheik matchup.

 

[Xinc]

Have fun folks. Please discuss Toon Link.

Spoiler

Character Description:

Spoiler

Sheik is Princess Zelda disguised as a male Sheikah. He claims to be the survivor of the Sheikahs. Sheik aids Link on his quest by teaching him various warp songs with his Harp. He does not reveal his identity or motives to Link until all the Sages are freed. (excerpt from ZeldaWiki: Sheik)

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Sadly, Sheik is not vulnerable to any followups out of a non-teched choke. However, you can punish a predicted roll-away with a Wizard's Foot, roll-towards with an angled down forward smash or Down air, and Getup Attack with a Down air or pivot angled-down forward smash.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Needles are extremely annoying. Powershielding helps save your shield HP. It provides a good deal of stun, but thanks to Ganondorf's heavy weight, it doesn't really hurt him from afar. Needle spam can only do so much, but will most definitely happen in wide stages like FD and Duck Hunt. Also, needles can be used against an offstage Ganon to lead to a Bouncing Fish, so be wary. Air Dodging is definitely one answer, but it's not a one-size-fit-all one. Another answer if you're nearby is to go for a short hop Aerial Flame Choke. It's possible to punish the needle toss animation, aiming at the cool down. This can be conditioned with a lot of empty jumps, prompting her to punish your landing. Reading the needles, as well as having good reaction time to Air Dodge, matters. The other projectile, grenade, is punishable. Just running through with a Dash Attack can do the trick if you're nearby.

Understanding the Matchup:

Ganondorf himself is a slow character with a giant hurt box, as he is extremely tall. As Sheik is a character whose moves have little to no end lag, Ganon will find himself smacked around very easily. Although Sheik is great at landing hits and netting early kills, her kill potential is not high. Hence, the most important thing to do is stay alive and wait for an opening before punishing. Of course, do not underestimate her kill moves, as down throw at higher percents can lead to 50-50s with up air or Vanish. On the other hand, Ganon's moves are fairly large, and some of his best moves are deceivingly fast, fittingly, so he CAN punish Sheik. Hence, spacing and playing safe is a great way to go.

Sheik, in all senses, is the opposite of Ganon. While Ganon's attacks are strong, but slow, Sheik's attacks are swift, but not strong. They chain together quickly and can give anyone a headache. But her hitboxes are NOT large or wide, while Ganon's are fairly big. However, these aren't the only opposites they have. Ganon's air speed is fairly slow. BUT Sheik's is far faster. Use this to employ followups from a throw, or simply from Nair. It's possible to read a tech from a SH Nair and land a choke from it. She is also a light character, which makes her combo-bait for our throws, if we land it. In addition, we can also kill her early with well spaced tilts. Of course, Sheik has a good horizontal recovery, as she doesn't go helpless from Bouncing Fish. Down Tilt is usually preferred as a killing option, while Forward Tilt serves as one as well, but also an option to get Sheik offstage.

What Sheik capitalizes in is her punish game, which is rendered weak in this matchup. Her opportunities to punish Ganon are basically the same things she can do in neutral. Ganon is too heavy to kill regularly. Hence, Ganon should be living to higher percents and be able to get Sheik to rage as well in several hits. If that's the scenario, her throw combos will stop working, thanks to rage. As such, shielding will become a far safer option.

One important factor to take in this matchup is to simply take Sheik's hits. Your hits do far much damage, such that one rogue forward tilt does roughly 2-3 Sheik fairs. Any trades will usually be in your favor, so if you spot a trading opportunity, take it, unless your stock is in jeopardy (unless if it'll put hers in one too).

Sheik will most likely play defensively to avoid getting caught by Ganon's hitboxes, and bait Ganon into overextending himself. The issue here is Sheik can afford to camp out Ganon with needles, and Ganon struggles with approaching. When approaching Sheik, dashing is not recommended, as it 'locks' Ganon into one direction, and only roll back and jump as his only retreating option. It's true that his walk is also slow, but it's better to have multiple weaker options than have few exploitable ones. Dash attack only when you're punishing, or aiming for the weak hit in order to do the Castle Flip. Hence, I stress this: Do not overcommit, or you'll get punished. If you do overcommit, try to reset the situation and swat Sheik away. It's important to note that Ganon's dash attack at low percents, sourspot or sweetspot can lead to a grab.

Snuffing Sheik's approach: Needles will be primarily employed to discourage your approach and disrupt your movement options, using the stun to be able to come in and dash grab or fair. Sheik's SH fair has impossibly low cool down, while SH Nair is also safe, due to its long-lasting hit-box, both of which can be follow-upped by a Forward Tilt. Ganon's SH Nair can clash well with these and swat Sheik away, while gaining momentum, but it can be baited. Despite the buffs to Ganon's Nair, there's enough end lag for Sheik to come in and punish. Against Needles, walk and empty jump to screw up Sheik's timing.

IF CAUGHT ABOVE: from down throw> up air, or trapped from a platform, you're in a rock paper scissors scenario. Jumping puts you in a worse scenario, but can escape an up air which has the potential to cause deaths, but can set you up for a Fair followup. (In this situation, if you read this, jump and aerial Wizkick is a good mixup option). Air Dodging can escape the up air, but can get you caught by Vanish. Hence, be wary from down throw, as those 50-50s at around 100-140% can net you still. However, getting past that percentage can make those followups difficult for Sheik, and not getting killed is the only thing you need at that point.

Remember that you only need to land around 8-10 good hits to take care of Sheik. A good choke can lead to a chain of chokes, even though there is no guaranteed followup. Also, feel free to utilize the aerial variant (Aerudo) as Sheik cannot tech it. If she just rolls away, you can down tilt immediately. Otherwise, shield to avoid the Get up attack, and grab; OR choke again for a series of chokes. Also, be aware that the Aerudo deals more damage than regular flame choke and has a slightly faster startup.

Gaining center stage control matters in this matchup, but not as much since you're getting tossed around a lot. But it helps mitigates any risks you may take from getting knocked offstage. In addition, getting center stage lessens Sheik's movement options and can prompt her to approach you, which can be advantageous to us. BUT if you see a Sheik dashing forward, she is most likely going for a dash grab, which Sheiks use to employ for her various throw combos. Be wary.

Punishing a Whiff Hit: Sheik has a very quick jab. They'll usually cover their whiff with a jab instead of a spot dodge or shield. It's technically a better option, so finding a way around it helps. Brace yourself for a shield grab out of the jab, or a well spaced down or forward tilt.

Recovering: Recovering low is great since although Sheik is great at hitting horizontally, she struggles with hitting deep down, as she needs to go down fairly low. Saving your second jump will also go a long way, as it will prevent you from getting baited as well as allow you to return onstage safely. Ganondorf's recovery gives a lot of vertical distance, so recovering from below is not a bad idea. Also feel free to hold back when recovering to give that uppercut to an antsy Sheik, as it'll push her away and give you time to get back on stage safely.

Of course, mixing up your recovery is extremely vital. If you see a Sheik preparing to dip low or cut your descent, you can overshoot your recovery from up high in order to throw her off balance and force her to recover. It can even set her up in a trump situation. A well timed (emphasis on well timed, as for this you need to be precise and hit the back air once she grabs the ledge, you can hit her before she goes too high) back air will be able to hit her. However, it's safer to recover low, but remember to tech Sheik's run off back air.

If you see Sheik coming horizontally with a Fair or Bouncing Fish, you can Nair instead of air dodging (which isn't advised) to swat her away. The rework on Nair makes it come out faster. The larger range helps us hit Sheik before she hits us.

Against a Sheik trying to land: Wizard's Foot (Wizkick) is great at covering her landings. It's a fast and relatively powerful move that can cancel at the ledge. Sheik wants to reset the situation, or fair to regain momentum. Sheik, more often than not, will be able to jump away and bouncing fish, which is difficult to catch. Try not to overextend yourself, but if you find Sheik may be coming down at an obvious location, Wizkick can help.

Grabs: Ganondorf's main grab in this matchup are the down throw and the forward throw to rack damage. Down throw racks up damage, especially with the new Nair followup. BUT… Up throw sends your opponent at an awkward upwards trajectory where you can reset the situation with Sheik on top, and wanting to come back down. You can punish her for that with an up air.

Edgeguarding: Vanish is unpunishable but there IS a 2 frame window for you to Ganoncide Sheik but hovering near the ledge and holding back when Sheik's recovering. With the right timing, Ganon will grab Sheik and throw her down to the Shadow Realm. If Sheik's recovering low, it's not a bad idea to try to punish the startup frames of vanish. Bouncing fish to the ledge, however, can be snagged with a well timed up air.

Sheik, when recovering from the ledge, has several options: ledge hop or drop down double jump forward air, which can be punished by a Nair. Ledge jump Bouncing fish is also an option for her, but we can spot-dodge this and punish her for it.


Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air. Dark Fists can also be used to ledge-stall, as the second hitbox can pop up the stage and net a surprise KO. More importantly, it's good to discourage a Sheik from trying to hit you with a wall of fairs, thanks to the super armor and massive kill power.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. Also, it's weaker than Wizkick but could avoid some projectiles and hits Sheik into an unfavorable position, especially if hitting her off-stage for a followup. It also is a guaranteed followup from down throw at lower to mid percents.



Stages to consider:


Battlefield is your best bet in this scenario, despite Sheik having the chance to kill you a bit earlier off the top with her up air.

Lylat is generally a good Ganon stage, but it benefits both parties. Sheik can needle spam and can run away, but Ganon can make use of the higher platforms with up smash, back air and forward air. Just watch out for the lip.

Smashville is another good option as the smaller base platform allows you to approach with less distance, and the moving platforms, although Sheik can use it to extend combos, we can also use it for aerial chokes and up air shenanigans.

Dream Land 64 is another not-bad option. Unlike Battlefield, it has a lower ceiling, but the stage itself is larger, making approaching more difficult than its more aesthetic counterpart. It's a pretty decent stage if you have rage and need to land one solid kill. Hence, pick this stage if you feel comfortable with the three platforms and BF is banned.

Final Destination is not as bad an option as it sounds. Despite Sheik has the option of needle spamming you, it's harder for her to kill you off the top, but she can still gimp you on the sides.

Duck Hunt is a wide stage, but the ducks help with stale moves and the high blast zones make it difficult for Sheik to land an up air kill against you. However, the wide stage gives Sheik a lot of room to run and camp. Although you can also play defensive and stay away from the needle distance, you're expected to approach if you're not in the lead.

Please ban T&C. It does nothing to you other than make the matchup easier for Sheik, since she has more room to move around now. The platforms help with her up air chains, and the wide stage area encourages needle spam.



Short Summary of Matchup:

While Sheik is quick and fast, Ganon is slow but strong. She has a lot of tools she can employ against you, but the most important thing is to stay alive. Conserve your second jump if you're knocked offstage, and recovery wisely. It shouldn't be a surprise to you that you're going to get hit a lot in this matchup. It's fine. Don't worry. On average, you can match a 3-6 hit combo from Sheik, and even do more than just break even, with a tilt or smash attack.

Sheik's fast, but it's important to understand her frame data to see her openings. We rely on reads, which require understanding and conditioning of our opponent. This is one matchup you don't want to be super aggressive in. Play defensive and look for openings. Oh, and also practice techs so when you recover, you don't get clipped by a back air, as well as perfect shielding so you can power shield needles.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 30-70

Ratio of the Matchup: 30-70


Thanks to: @ A2ZOMG Gold_TSG _Magus_ TheArabSamurai @Blobface Abbey Street Theosmeo adom4 @NEStalgia314 jmanup85 Shmeckie Vermanubis @super fan bros Xinc @WwwWario Z1GMA @Scarlet Jile HeavyLobster Spark31 @MagiusNecros mgleed Opana


FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING TOON LINK

 

[_Magus_]

If there's one thing I know about this MU, it's that it's annoying as all heck. Sure toon link has a fat head, leading to decent followups like jab and f tilt out of choke, but he has pestering projectiles and obnoxious mobility. Link is more manageable than Tink IMO bc he's slower. Tink can pester us from range forever with his projectiles, forcing us to approach. Camping and waiting on him will never pay off. He has attacks that come out faster than ours, such as nair and jab, that can pester us close up. His grab has good range, and he can space his zair to zone us out while remaining very safe.
Plus there's c4 bomb techniques for stage control, etc. It's an annoying matchup that is not fun to play at all.

The only positive is that Tink is light and dies early. 60/40 Tink.

 

[TurboLink]

If there's one thing I know about this MU, it's that it's annoying as all heck. Sure toon link has a fat head, leading to decent followups like jab and f tilt out of choke, but he has pestering projectiles and obnoxious mobility. Link is more manageable than Tink IMO bc he's slower. Tink can pester us from range forever with his projectiles, forcing us to approach. Camping and waiting on him will never pay off. He has attacks that come out faster than ours, such as nair and jab, that can pester us close up. His grab has good range, and he can space his zair to zone us out while remaining very safe.
Plus there's c4 bomb techniques for stage control, etc. It's an annoying matchup that is not fun to play at all.

The only positive is that Tink is light and dies early. 60/40 Tink.

Have you tried practicing catching bombs?

 

[Theosmeo]

I play an ok toon link pretty regularly, but I still don't feel like I have enough match up experience off him alone. I'd say we lose the matchup. However I think normal link is worse to fight because of the huge disjoint on his sword that he can force us into with his projectiles. Toon link has to maneuver to us if he wants to kill us.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's one TL in my area known as Das, and I've had the privilege of playing him in some friendlies in this matchup. I'd say atm I feel it's even unless the TL insists on timing you out on something like TaC.

Anyhow as it's commonly known, shield is your friend vs TL. He has to generally work really hard to beat it, given his grab is a liability and his throws are less than impressive. Ganon also outranges TL and generally has better attacks in midrange, so any time TL has to actually fight through you directly, that actually goes in your favor. Helps that he has limited options for landing/recovery as well.

As for what options TL has that you have to respect, obviously Bomb toss is number one on that list. Unless you're really good about catching and tossing back Bombs, this will beat out all your attacks directly and can be confirmed into other things, and a smart TL will try to make it riskier for you to catch Bombs often by recatching them after soft tosses. Remember, shield is your friend at midrange, so in general you want to take your time to figure out how he covers himself before making your move.

His Z-air is slower and his floaty jumps make it a fairly obvious commitment, but obviously it's in your best interest to shield this as well given he can use this as a setup into U-smash. He can also use this as an emergency option out of airdodge to cover his landing, though this is very punishable if he uses Z-air in this fashion (shield, then punish the airdodge landing lag that results).

Overall, neutral will test your patience but is totally doable with Ganon's range and burst movement in midrange. The matchup becomes much more favorable once you get TL off the stage. Be smart about maneuvering around projectiles (attack through them if necessary), and a good N-air or U-air typically will give him a bad day offstage. In contrast, TL's options to edgeguard Ganon are much more limited, outside of suicide D-air on the last stock and some downwards Bomb toss setups which can be avoided by varying your Up-B recovery position.

As for stages just avoid TaC as far as I'm concerned, it's the best place for him to try to run away from you and you don't benefit from the low ceiling as much as he does. Either BF or FD are fine stages against him.

 

[_Magus_]

Have you tried practicing catching bombs?

Absolutely. In my experience, it's been catch a bomb, get hit by an arrow or returning boomerang.

 

[HeavyLobster]

There's one TL in my area known as Das, and I've had the privilege of playing him in some friendlies in this matchup. I'd say atm I feel it's even unless the TL insists on timing you out on something like TaC.

Anyhow as it's commonly known, shield is your friend vs TL. He has to generally work really hard to beat it, given his grab is a liability and his throws are less than impressive. Ganon also outranges TL and generally has better attacks in midrange, so any time TL has to actually fight through you directly, that actually goes in your favor. Helps that he has limited options for landing/recovery as well.

As for what options TL has that you have to respect, obviously Bomb toss is number one on that list. Unless you're really good about catching and tossing back Bombs, this will beat out all your attacks directly and can be confirmed into other things, and a smart TL will try to make it riskier for you to catch Bombs often by recatching them after soft tosses. Remember, shield is your friend at midrange, so in general you want to take your time to figure out how he covers himself before making your move.

His Z-air is slower and his floaty jumps make it a fairly obvious commitment, but obviously it's in your best interest to shield this as well given he can use this as a setup into U-smash. He can also use this as an emergency option out of airdodge to cover his landing, though this is very punishable if he uses Z-air in this fashion (shield, then punish the airdodge landing lag that results).

Overall, neutral will test your patience but is totally doable with Ganon's range and burst movement in midrange. The matchup becomes much more favorable once you get TL off the stage. Be smart about maneuvering around projectiles (attack through them if necessary), and a good N-air or U-air typically will give him a bad day offstage. In contrast, TL's options to edgeguard Ganon are much more limited, outside of suicide D-air on the last stock and some downwards Bomb toss setups which can be avoided by varying your Up-B recovery position.

As for stages just avoid TaC as far as I'm concerned, it's the best place for him to try to run away from you and you don't benefit from the low ceiling as much as he does. Either BF or FD are fine stages against him.

Basically everything I wanted to say. TL is really lame and annoying, but he sucks against shield. He's going to pester you a lot with projectiles and can rack up damage fairly easily, but doesn't really kill you all that easily. He can't punish shield all that well except in cases where Bthrow can kill, so be patient and abuse this. He's fairly easy once you get him in disadvantage/offstage, like his more realistic counterpart, so remember you're never out of it and keep your cool. He's weaker in midrange than Link and can't gimp us as well, so I feel this MU is slightly easier than him, if more annoying. Roughly evenish sounds about right.

 

[BlackCore8]

In this MU perfect shielding will help close the gap between you and TL. Catching bombs will help a lot. Many weakness toon link has is that he's a lightweight obviously, he has a bad recovery, he doesn't do great at close combat, and he has a laggy grab. TL aerials are punishable but I would stick to side tilt since that's one of ganon's fastest moves. In short, TL can wall you out, apply pressure and gimp you fairly easily. You have to be very patient in this MU and as soon as you get close to TL do your best to not let him get away cause he's fast. Also, you can never forget he has the second strongest back throw so if you're at high percent watch out for it and punish with a up smash if you're close to him.

I would say it's 40:60 or 45:55 Toon Links advantage.

 

[Abbey Street]

Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all non-DLC characters, click here. Toon Link's short size and sorta fat hurtbox mean that he gets hit by D-tilt and F-tilt out of choke. Both of these moves can give Ganondorf a positional advantage as Toon Link doesn't have very good options for landing or defending himself against edgeguards if he's sent too far due to his subpar air speed. Obviously, don't F-tilt Toon Link towards center stage because that will reset neutral. Super early kills can be achieved by punishing inward rolls out of unteched choke with a down-angled F-smash.
If Toon Link techs your chokes, don't worry; his awful tech rolls keep him in a pretty bad spot and susceptible to tech chases, making it difficult for him to get away from you.

Some tips for the MU:

• Bomb is Toon Link's everything in this matchup. It sets up combos, and Bomb + Spin Attack sets up a kill confirm with B-air. Be really careful around it! In addition, watch the video below to learn more about Toon Link's bomb and special techs he can do with them.
  
• If you shield a Bomb from a horizontal throw, sometimes the Bomb will bounce off and upward; in this case, you can pace forward and catch it. You can get setups off of a Bomb as well; in some cases, it may be worth tanking a projectile to get the bomb setup to begin a string. However, nothing wrong with playing it safe and letting the Bomb fall.
  
• Tink uses some of the most easily powershielded projectiles in the game given how slow they move. If you're looking for a starting point for practicing powershielding, this can be a good matchup to play.
  
• Is Toon Link above you? Watch out for if he gets Lee Sindrome and decides to try to drop on you with a D-air. This is punishable by a Warlock Punch exploiting the (recently buffed) super armor! Warlock Punch (no rage + proper DI) kills Toon Link at just over 50%, while reversed it kills Tink at about 15%. This must be done on reaction, however, and no smart Toon Link will do it; it's mainly a fun technique but will work if Tink is high enough.
  
• Tink's frame data in the air isn't exactly the greatest; he does not have great range on his aerials either (outside of Z-air). Thus Toon Link is susceptible to strings and aerial challenges without a Bomb in hand. This, combined with Tink's poor air speed, makes him vulnerable offstage to edgeguards. You can also effectively challenge his landing as he lacks options if there is no Bomb to cover him.
  
• D'ya get all that? Good, now go look over what A2 wrote one more time. Really good to know all that stuff.

Custom moves:
While our recovery sees notable improvement with the implementation of custom moves, so does Toon Link's; he has access to a handy move in Flying Spin Attack, which gives the move super armor, a delayed ascent and some extra kill power (albeit not to the degree of Dark Fists), which can aid him in vertical recoveries. The custom Bombs with their considerable knockback can improve Tink's keepaway game, but they cost him a combo setup, so don't count on him using them as the other projectiles can do the zoning job for him. The Fire Arrows are also pretty pesky as they leave a blaze on the ground that deals more damage and KB than the arrow itself, but their main use will be for ledge traps; they actually don't do much for him in neutral.
For Ganondorf, Dark Fists is the obvious option (as it usually is) as it can be used as a solid anti-air; of course, the fact that it kills Toon Link early is also another handy aspect. Flame Choke should still be the go-to against Toon Link due to the advantage it lends even if Tink techs. Lastly, given the nature of Toon Link's zoning and tethers, along with the knockback of his attacks, Dropkick will most likely be considered the better option here as it aids Ganon's recovery in addition to providing him with another avenue around Tink's projectiles and tether.
All in all, Ganondorf benefits a surprising amount more from customs than Toon Link does; every choice Tink makes is a sacrifice while Ganon loves the extra tools he gets with his own, especially with how they benefit him in this matchup in particular. They can scare Toon Link out of using certain moves lest he get punished, specifically arrows and Z-air, and as a result they can work against some of Tink's favorite setups and traps. All this, alongside the raw power of Dark Fists, effectively swings this matchup in Ganon's favor.
Toon Link's projected Custom Moveset vs. Ganondorf: 2-1-3-1

Sugg. CM ratio for the matchup: 55-45 Advantage (Recommended move set: 2-1-2-2)

Sugg. ratio for the matchup: 50-50 Even

Recommended Watch: Toon Link Bomb Techs - understand the many things that Toon Link can do using one of his most important moves vs. Ganondorf!

Spoiler

 

[Moobussir]

I'm so jealous of your boards right now, you've had 8 replies in the time it took me just to SEE the post! I commend your activity Ganon's!

(Also forgive how sparatic my words will be, I have no clear thoughts and I'm just writing as I go)

As for matchup, it's easy to underestimate Ganon's potential, because he has the ability to win for sure. It's still going to be very uphill however. Toon Link can camp this matchup, but as you said, powershielding is a useful tactic to mitigate our combo's since we have a tough time beating shield. However, just because our grab is slow doesn't mean it's not useful. Grab can reset neutral if it connects, and at mid percents, Up-Throw to Up-air is a true combo that can catch someone with slow aerial frames like Ganon easily. In addition, there's been advancing with the bomb and grab game, which I'll touch on later, but basically, be wary of our grab. It's slow but active for 7 frames and can be tricky to avoid when you're pressured by projectiles already.

Toon Link beats shields by learning his opponents shield habits, then abusing those habits. For example, we can throw a bomb at you, and if we know you're going to shield, we know to grab. Then we can D-throw, which also gets you hit by the bomb, giving his grab a lot of damage potential. This is especially effective against Ganon, who, with his slow speed, would have a hard time avoiding this or punishing a whiff. Otherwise, we can still get you after you encounter the thrown bomb. We can catch the bomb ourselves, attack you if you drop shield, throw another projectile to cover your space, etc. We learn as we go here.

Aside from projectiles, our sword game isn't to be forgotten. Our fastest frame is Frame 6, which isn't that good, but it still beats almost all of Ganon's options (aside from your Up-air). Our up-tilt is better then Mario's, and we can catch someone as big and heavy as you for a long time, with good finishers to boot. Attacks like N-air and B-air are also good for spacing, as they are quick and cover good space against an approach. Up-air is becoming a popular combo-starter too, as it lasts longer then most sex-kick N-air's, and works best against tall opponents again like Ganon (It can even beat air-dodges if they aren't frame-perfect). Finally, Zan's favourite thing is footstool to D-air, which can lock at low percents too.

Our B&B combo is bomb to F-air, which knocks opponents far away horizontally. Other notable combo's include bomb to Up-Smash, Up-air, footstool, whatever we can make happen. Boomerang can start combo's nearly as effectively, so boomerang to Fair isn't uncommon. Returning boomerang creates a lot of pressure, since we can lock you into a grab with it, or even a smash attack. It's for that reason you need to be vigilant against a projectile, since Ganon is combo bait.

In terms of stages, beware Battlefield and Dreamland, since tall characters can be hit by bomb when they stand below the platform. FD is a linear stage, making it hard to traverse at a distance but rather easy to corner us. Delfino is notable for being able to reset neutral a lot, and gives Toon Link a lot of advantages like water to D-air through, low ceilings to Up-air through, lots of space to control, etc. T&C is good I hear but I don't like that stage personally so no comment. Smashville seems alright I guess then.

Sorry that this was so all over the place, but I'm open to discuss more. This is just my text dump of plenty of notes. Hope it helped somewhat!