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Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

Abbey Street

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Now back to zelda when you are recovering against her try to go as low as you can they'll eventually have to up b, and avoid the DAIR even the sourspot is deadly for us.
For stages I will have to choose BF, DL just because we can up smash through platforms or up air as well and since everyone likes to shield grab ganon or just shield in general go for chokes (follow ups or tech chases), reads. I'll get some footage to show you guys the MU. I used to have a lot against the best Zelda in Panamá but dem patches Bros :/
Regards
I actually prefer Town and City over Battlefield, you can pull off those same U-Smash shenanigans and the low ceiling makes killing her with one easier. I personally prefer SH U-Air for hitting Zelda on a platform in general, it's way easier to hit and comes out faster, and then you can look for tech chases and other punishes. If Zelda is slightly in front and above, I do like U-Smash there because of the bait potential. That's probably only applicable to scrubby Zelda players though, but I managed to bait a really good Zelda in with U-Smash into the killing F-Tilt last night in tourney.
Interesting bit about the ledge trumps and wizkick though. :)

Also who's excited to discuss the Sheik matchup next week?!?
/sarcasm

EDIT: for 3DS stages I recommend striking Yoshi's and Ferox. Zelda will most likely ban Battlefield meaning that your first game will probably go to FD. If you lose and get a counterpick, I would recommend taking Zelda to Dream Land or, if that's not available, Prism Tower. Ganon benefits more from small blast zones than Zelda does so that is an advantage to use against her. If you have the luxury of Brinstar, ban it, you will die extremely early against Zelda.
EDIT 2: With Duck Hunt now available on 3DS you should consider striking that instead as you usually would in WiiU vs. Zelda. Unlike DL64 it is a free stage so everyone will have it.
 
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Zard lover Doom Desire

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Zelda...now this is a rare matchup indeed. I'm going to say it's even or in Ganondorf's favor. Sure, Zelda can kinda zone you, but not that well, Din's Fire is a bit predictable, and punishable if you're close. Outside of the elevator and her lightning kicks, Zelda can't kill us that easily, but Ganondorf hits like a truck, sometimes a dark truck and occasionally a lightning truck but usually just a regular truck. I don't have much experience on this matchup though, just going on their movesets, so I could be wrong.
 

jmanup85

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All these match up ratios are pretty much invalidated with this new patch. Also, I'm positive they are going to release more and very soon to start balancing around it or (hopefully) remove it. If it's removed then they stay, if not these match ups need to be redone. Should we postpone any match ups until things are settled or keep going under these new mechanics?
 

_Magus_

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All these match up ratios are pretty much invalidated with this new patch. Also, I'm positive they are going to release more and very soon to start balancing around it or (hopefully) remove it. If it's removed then they stay, if not these match ups need to be redone. Should we postpone any match ups until things are settled or keep going under these new mechanics?
I vote for postponing. IMO it's more than likely that they will be tinkered with/patched out. Better to save what we've done in case they bring back the old mechanics instead of scrapping all our work and starting anew just for the mechanics to change again.
 

Xinc

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I vote for postponing. IMO it's more than likely that they will be tinkered with/patched out. Better to save what we've done in case they bring back the old mechanics instead of scrapping all our work and starting anew just for the mechanics to change again.
I also believe we can postpone or just focus on overall tactics without getting into the nitty-gritty.

With me trying to come up with compiling analyses and patches just happening, I have some difficulty figuring out what actually changes in the meta. Like the increased shield stun actually does matter globally.
 

jmanup85

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I also believe we can postpone or just focus on overall tactics without getting into the nitty-gritty.

With me trying to come up with compiling analyses and patches just happening, I have some difficulty figuring out what actually changes in the meta. Like the increased shield stun actually does matter globally.
Hi, I'm jmanup85, and I approve this message.
 

_Magus_

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I also believe we can postpone or just focus on overall tactics without getting into the nitty-gritty.

With me trying to come up with compiling analyses and patches just happening, I have some difficulty figuring out what actually changes in the meta. Like the increased shield stun actually does matter globally.
This.
 

JmacAttack

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Luigi needs to be redone, too, because they removed his 0-60 Dthrow combos and kill setups, which if I recall were both big reasons that the matchup was considered uneven.
 
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Xinc

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So hence, we will be on hiatus until the next DLC/patch, I suppose, which should happen very soon. (or when things start slowing down).

List of priorities:

1. Finish Zelda
2. Do a rework of the previous characters from Mario to Link.
3. Continue on to Sheik.
If there are any patches that happen during this time that SIGNIFICANTLY changes anything, we will pause, look at who has changed drastically that we have done and change them.

Opinions?
 
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JmacAttack

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So hence, we will be on hiatus until the next DLC/patch, I suppose, which should happen very soon. (or when things start slowing down).

List of priorities:

1. Finish Zelda
2. Do a rework of the previous characters from Mario to Link.
3. Continue on to Sheik.
If there are any patches that happen during this time that SIGNIFICANTLY changes anything, we will pause, look at who has changed drastically that we have done and change them.

Opinions?
I like it. I don't have time to play smash right now anyway.
 

Z1GMA

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Rework? There'll be more patches, so there'll be no end to it.

:ganondorf: Vs :zelda:
Ganon's favour, but not by much. (57 - 43)
Dtilt and Nair eats her up.
Don't get hit by her up+b, and don't let her have her way with her grab-game.
 

adom4

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Rework? There'll be more patches, so there'll be no end to it.

:ganondorf: Vs :zelda:
Ganon's favour, but not by much. (57 - 43)
Dtilt and Nair eats her up.
Don't get hit by her up+b, and don't let her have her way with her grab-game.
I would really like to say we have an advantage but her Dair absolutely murders us offstage, i think it's even.
 

Vermanubis

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I apologize if I've already commented on Zelda, but I think she wins slightly. One of the biggest reasons being that upon tech, nothing we do after choke can hit her -- not even a buffered wizkick. Though her defensive options have somewhat low payoff, they're effective enough that fighting a campy Zelda who knows Ganon's weakness to shields is really tedious. I'll go into more detail later, and I don't think it's a very large deficit for us, but I definitely can't say I think we win. At the very best we're even, I think.
 
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| Kailex |

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Lost to a zelda yesterday, welp. Recovering is hard, that is all.
 

Xinc

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I apologize if I've already commented on Zelda, but I think she wins slightly. One of the biggest reasons being that upon tech, nothing we do after choke can hit her -- not even a buffered wizkick. Though her defensive options have somewhat low payoff, they're effective enough that fighting a campy Zelda who knows Ganon's weakness to shields is really tedious. I'll go into more detail later, and I don't think it's a very large deficit for us, but I definitely can't say I think we win. At the very best we're even, I think.
I agree, but the way I feel we should be playing Zelda is a passive-aggressive sort. Not really giving her any space to do pesky projectiles, nor any room to grab or Nayru's love her way out of our face. Spacing's pretty accurate. Choking Zelda is definitely a problem because we can't do much to her. Are you sure buffered Wizkick can't hit her tech roll forward?

But I will say, Ganon should not be going (at least THAT FAR) offstage for kills, because Zelda has a good recovery while we do not...
 

jmanup85

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I can confirm that buffered wizkick doesn't work against forward tech roll. Your description of playing against Zelda is probably the best way to approach that match up imo.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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I swear I commented here one time, so I don't know why I haven't been getting notifications. Also wasn't this board talking about Zelda a month ago? Or was that the Zelda boards talking about Ganondorf?

EDIT: Oh it was in September that we were talking about Zelda...and I thought the Charizard boards were dead.
 
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_Magus_

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I swear I commented here one time, so I don't know why I haven't been getting notifications. Also wasn't this board talking about Zelda a month ago? Or was that the Zelda boards talking about Ganondorf?

EDIT: Oh it was in September that we were talking about Zelda...and I thought the Charizard boards were dead.
Forgive us if the patch changes that negate our work on past matchup discussions leaves a bad taste in our mouths. Lol
 

_Magus_

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To be fair, the patches only serve to strengthen us, I've been breaking more shields than ever now!
Yeah but some of the other characters whose matchups we've already covered have received large buffs or nerfs, which effectively change the MU landscape entirely and negate our prior work. We're hesitant to start over on MU discussion again, only to have another patch come along and invalidate those efforts as well.
 

verbatim

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The end goal of these projects shouldn't be to create a so called matchup ratings chart. The information obtained prior to 1.1.0 helped Ganondorf's compete prior to 1.1.0.

if we're hesitant going forward with an official project (I'd be willing to do such if there's communal interestt) I think it'd be better to change this thread into a sharing advice kind of thread a la

Q: "Hey I keep losing to Ness, I keep getting pk fire'd and grabbed, does anyone have any advice for this matchup?"

A: "Wizard's Foot jumps over pk fire, so you can approach like that, beyond that you really just need to work on your perfect shielding and hope for the best."
 

jmanup85

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The end goal of these projects shouldn't be to create a so called matchup ratings chart. The information obtained prior to 1.1.0 helped Ganondorf's compete prior to 1.1.0.

if we're hesitant going forward with an official project (I'd be willing to do such if there's communal interestt) I think it'd be better to change this thread into a sharing advice kind of thread a la

Q: "Hey I keep losing to Ness, I keep getting pk fire'd and grabbed, does anyone have any advice for this matchup?"

A: "Wizard's Foot jumps over pk fire, so you can approach like that, beyond that you really just need to work on your perfect shielding and hope for the best."
I can agree with that I guess. Now change that lame hedgehog into the awesome echidna.
 

Xinc

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The end goal of these projects shouldn't be to create a so called matchup ratings chart. The information obtained prior to 1.1.0 helped Ganondorf's compete prior to 1.1.0.

if we're hesitant going forward with an official project (I'd be willing to do such if there's communal interestt) I think it'd be better to change this thread into a sharing advice kind of thread a la

Q: "Hey I keep losing to Ness, I keep getting pk fire'd and grabbed, does anyone have any advice for this matchup?"

A: "Wizard's Foot jumps over pk fire, so you can approach like that, beyond that you really just need to work on your perfect shielding and hope for the best."
That's not the right scenario. We have enough info as it is, but it's pretty clear that a patch could potentially change everything.

But if you guys are asking for me to continue with the analysis, I'm willing to continue. I'll have the writeup before tomorrow.
 

Xinc

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Here you go: Zelda. Ditto matchup next. Go wild.

Character Description: Princess Zelda
is the eponymous name commonly given to the females born into the Royal Family of Hyrule in The Legend of Zelda series. With the exception of Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask, and Tri Force Heroes, an incarnation of Zelda or one of her alter egos has always been one of the central characters in the series.


Gerudo Followups (unteched): For a full chart of Gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Zelda is victim to a down tilt follow up if she fails to tech, (kills at 110). Zelda's tech roll away is impossible to follow up, unless she doesn't have enough space for the full tech roll, as she rolls too far and too quickly for even a buffered Wizard's Foot to punish. If she does a Get Up Attack or just remains still on the ground, a pivot angled down forward smash will connect.


How to Deal with Projectiles: Zelda's specials, like Links, are all projectiles, outside of Farore's Wind. Din's Fire is great for hindering distance, as is the Phantom (down B), but both are relatively slow. The Phantom is even easier to punish since if you connect a strong enough move, Zelda will be unable to use it for a few moments after it has been destroyed. Nayru's Love (default B) punishes you if you get too close and has a fair range, and is able to knock you away. Power-shield (or block the phantom) those the projectiles, and refrain from being too close to Zelda unless you're sure she will be unable to either grab or use Nayru's Love.

Understanding the Matchup:

Zelda's neutral game is a zoning-type game. She wants to keep you out with her projectiles and Nayru's Love and pressure you into approaching only to grab you and do down throw follow ups. Your goal as Ganon is to get in without being punished and be able to get out safely, or potentially kill Link.You have the tools to do this.The key to this is to be very accurate with your spacing, being just enough to avoid her tilts and Nayru's Love, but close enough so Din's Fire and Phantom will be risky. Aptly put, approaching will be a pain.

The key to beating her normal range while still being in range to punish her Din's Fire/Phantom is to use spacing moves, such as Down Tilt. Dash attack on the other hand is a risky move, as the end lag can be easy to punish, despite the range it offers.

Another positive thing is that Zelda is light. So trading is almost always a good option to rack up damage against her, so a stray Dash Attack or down tilt can kill under 140%.

The problem Zelda suffers is the same most characters suffer; it's that she's not that good when she's above a character. Zelda's weight and fall speed make it simple for Ganon to use simpler combos at lower percents (down throw-> wizard's foot) without fearing retaliation, and still end up close enough to attack again. She also has terrible landing options, so trapping her in the air to rack up damage is a positive opportunity.

Simply put, Ganondorf needs to be very careful against an experienced Zelda, especially when he wants to Choke. She can just tech-roll away. You can try to trap her by limiting her space so her tech-roll doesn't go as much and you can Wiz-Kick though.

Grabs: Zelda's throws do not kill at a reasonable percent, but she has the potential to rack up your damage with down throw followups (This is because you're heavy and floaty). What you want to do is be careful about his grab range. Being grabbed and being unable to mash out spells a down throw at low percents which will rack up your damage counter quickly. She also has a good dash grab range, so be careful.

Edgeguarding: Zelda's Up-B is very fast and also powerful in the second hit. You may want to consider trumping her or punishing an unsafe landing on the ground, as it's difficult to punish Farore's Wind on it's own. However, if it's clear she's too close and you can punish, a stray Back air or Forward air will do the trick.

Recovering: Try to mix up your recovery a bit and definitely save your jump. Sometimes going a bit deep and hugging the stage is useful to avoid Zelda's down air Gimp.

Customs to consider:

Warlock Blade: This move is slightly weaker than default Warlock Punch but has a large hitbox that rewards Ganondorf if he hits at the tip of the blade. It also has shield break properties and super armor. This move is great for stage control and, though punishable, good for interrupting approaches and momentum. Due to the slowness of all variants of Warlock Punch, neutral special isn't often used in this matchup. However, it can be an option if you find yourself a bit too far away from Zelda.

Dark Fists: This move has super armor at the start and the first hit will link to the second, which is a killing blow. This can punish attempted edge guards, and has giant knock back. Also a potent OoS option. It can kill as low as 40% and delivers another potent move to Ganondorf's killing options. It can kill at a ridiculously high percent, especially if launched high up into the air.

Wizard's DropKick: First things first, it really helps Ganondorf's below average recovery, which mainly reaches vertically. Also, it's weaker than Wizkick but could avoid some projectiles and hits at Zelda into an unfavorable position, especially if hitting her off-stage.

Stages to consider:

Try to avoid flat stages and counter pick to Dream Land. Please ban FD first, as that's Zelda's most advantageous stage.

Battlefield: Zelda has less room to use her projectiles and the taller boundary may help you survive from her Up-B. Fair and Bair can kill super quickly near the edge of the stage.

DL64: Like Battlefield - less room to use projectiles.

Lylat: Up smash becomes infinitely easier here and trapping Zelda on a platform can be disastrous for her.

T&C is possible as the platforms can offer some refuge from direct attacks.

Short Summary of Matchup:

The key to this matchup is staying close but not close enough to eat Nayru's Love. Poking moves like down tilt, forward tilt, jab are extremely useful in this. In addition, neutral air is also a good poking move, having two hits, but has some end lag.

Zelda has fast tilts and a great off-stage game with her down air. She can afford to go down deep, since she has a good recovery. Engaging Zelda off-stage may be a bit risky, as she can retaliate quickly with a move of her own without much worry for up-B.

CM Ratio of the Matchup: 50-50

Ratio of the Matchup: 50-50


Thanks to: Vermanubis Vermanubis Abbey Street Abbey Street TheArabSamurai TheArabSamurai A2ZOMG A2ZOMG @Rebel13 Sykkamorre Sykkamorre @Shmeckie @Jyro @Alacion @Rickster _Magus_ _Magus_ @Swoops @TriTails @DarkFox207



FOR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL BE DISCUSSING THE DITTO: GANONDORF!




 

Gold_TSG

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I think its safe to say that in the Dorf ditto, the match-up is clearly in Dorf's favor 100-0
 

Abbey Street

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Ganondorf dittos are among the most interesting, complex, and overall entertaining dittos in the game. It is almost purely a battle of wits, as the smarter Ganondorf will usually win despite how mechanically well-versed his adversary may be.

Gerudo followups: Ganondorf does not have anything guaranteed on himself out of an unteched choke. However, Ganon's only-average rolls combined with his large hurtbox obviously make techchases and reads easier, including sourspotted dash attack on roll-away allowing for the Castle Flip, which can allow the perpetrator to gain a huge advantage in stage control. Getup attacks can be punished with pivot FSmash or a pivot Choke, but beware the large hitbox on getup attack.

Castle Flip Combo Percentages: Ganondorf can confirm sourspotted dash attack into an up air between 65% and 139%. (Special thanks to @Showyoucan for these numbers!)

Some little things to remember:
  • Ganondorf's slow ground speed and tall hurtbox can make spacing with aerials very effective at piling on percent without making a huge commitment. They also present an opportunity to analyze a more offensive Ganondorf's approaches, which means more effective punishes down the road.
  • If two Flame Chokes meet, it is often the one that was launched first that will succeed. The same is also true with grounded wizkick.
  • It is possible to use aerial wizkick to spike a Ganondorf out of their Up B recovery without SD'ing! How you do it is execute the wizkick, but position yourself so that you will be caught by the Up B's grab hitbox during your kick. Being grabbed will break your descent, but the lack of grab armor means your adversary will still be spiked by your kick. Try not to attempt this regularly, as it is very hard to land consistently.
Now to leave this to the folk like A2 who are masters of the Dorf Ditto...
 
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A2ZOMG

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Reading a jump in this matchup is like almost always instant death, so in general when you're being juggled, you want to be really careful about where you use your midair jump, because getting clipped out of that can get you gimped really quickly. This is probably in general one of the easiest ways to kill someone in the ditto, whether they know the matchup well or not. Also, because of this, Ganon often gets way more mileage out of U-throw than D-throw in this matchup when the other player knows when and how to DI D-throw followups. Thanks to Ganon's crap airspeed and lack of B reverse options, his own juggles are really hard for him to escape without a risky Wizkick read.

Ganon also kinda bodies his own tools in footsies pretty hard with F-smash. While it DOES lose to D-tilt and can be easily punished by DA out of shield, Ganon can outspace basically anything else with F-smash for ridiculous reward. If you were wondering why adom4 adom4 likes to spam F-smash, now you know why.

Edgeguarding is either free or a double edged sword. Usually after a good Fsmash or F-tilt that sends Ganon low enough, it's simple enough to end his stock either with N-air, or stage tech F-air if N-air for any reason somehow fails to work past Ganon's Up-B. When Ganon can save his double jump though, you have to respect his U-air which will beat his other aerials more often than not and can threaten to stage spike if you're trying to edgeguard deep.

Last but not least, the one bad thing about this matchup is Ganondorf has a very hard time stopping edgestalling in this matchup. Ganon does not have any moves besides U-tilt and aerial Wizkick which can hit Ganon on the ledge, and the Up-B uppercut used wisely can make it hard to ledge trump Ganon easily. That being said, ledge trumping is still very important in this matchup to discourage ledgestalling, as it's generally one of the only ways Ganon can really pressure it.

Matchup is 100:0 Ganon's favor. Proof that there is only truth in power.
 
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jmanup85

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Reading a jump in this matchup is like almost always instant death, so in general when you're being juggled, you want to be really careful about where you use your midair jump, because getting clipped out of that can get you gimped really quickly. This is probably in general one of the easiest ways to kill someone in the ditto, whether they know the matchup well or not. Also, because of this, Ganon often gets way more mileage out of U-throw than D-throw in this matchup when the other player knows when and how to DI D-throw followups. Thanks to Ganon's crap airspeed and lack of B reverse options, his own juggles are really hard for him to escape without a risky Wizkick read.

Ganon also kinda bodies his own tools in footsies pretty hard with F-smash. While it DOES lose to D-tilt and can be easily punished by DA out of shield, Ganon can outspace basically anything else with F-smash for ridiculous reward. If you were wondering why adom4 adom4 likes to spam F-smash, now you know why.

Edgeguarding is either free or a double edged sword. Usually after a good Fsmash or F-tilt that sends Ganon low enough, it's simple enough to end his stock either with N-air, or stage tech F-air if N-air for any reason somehow fails to work past Ganon's Up-B. When Ganon can save his double jump though, you have to respect his U-air which will beat his other aerials more often than not and can threaten to stage spike if you're trying to edgeguard deep.

Last but not least, the one bad thing about this matchup is Ganondorf has a very hard time stopping edgestalling in this matchup. Ganon does not have any moves besides U-tilt and aerial Wizkick which can hit Ganon on the ledge, and the Up-B uppercut used wisely can make it hard to ledge trump Ganon easily. That being said, ledge trumping is still very important in this matchup to discourage ledgestalling, as it's generally one of the only ways Ganon can really pressure it.

Matchup is 100:0 Ganon's favor. Proof that there is only truth in power.
What exactly is a good punish for the uppercut. I can ledge trump but the uppercut is something I've yet to beat out right.
 

Gold_TSG

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Can a low aerial down B beat a clipping uppercut? For a meteor?
 

A2ZOMG

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Can a low aerial down B beat a clipping uppercut? For a meteor?
That's only practical as a ledge regrab punish for the most part. Otherwise they can simply just grab the ledge safely and punish your landing lag.
 
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_Magus_

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Something that's very useful, especially against more naive players of the ditto, is up throw. You can up throw them to bait the wizkick or dair landing and then convert a decent punish and possibly even a kill off of that. Also, your percentage is directly proportional to how likely your opponent is to take the bait. If they haven't been able to get the stock off and you're sitting around at 100%+, they'll be hungry for a seemingly good opportunity like that. Plus, Ganondorf doesn't get much mileage out of his up throw in regular play (although you could use this mind game against characters like Bowser), so there's the surprise factor, especially against newer players to the ditto.
 
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TheArabSamurai

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One thing I've definitely realized is that the ditto is very different from how Ganondorf plays in other match-ups. To begin with, playing with the bait and punish style in the ditto isn't heavily rewarded and opting to play defensively won't yield much either. In my personal experiences, playing rush down proved to be extremely effective.

Another noteworthy tidbit is that its possible to combo Ganon in low % off of a down throw, NAIR, Up Air and Down B are all possible. Weak hit of dash attack into grab into NAIR for maximum damage, although you can follow up with up air or down b. Ganon's jabs are also extremely underused. It's his fastest move and is his best option after a spotdodge, it's real good for punishing F-Tilt or D-Tilt since a lot of Ganon users are a little bit too D Tilt trigger happy as it's one of his better options in neutral.

I agree with A2's point about up throw being really good in this match-up as well, especially against more skilled Ganons who know how to DI the down throw. This tool is especially more useful on flatter stages like Final Destination and Smashville. It's hard to find ways to cheese out Ganon, it boils down to who has the stronger fundamentals and a better understanding of the character's tools.
 

_Magus_

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Whoops, didn't realize A2 touched on U throw already. Oh well, at least there's some extra elaboration on it I guess :p
 

jmanup85

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Personally I feel that Ganon gets mileage out of up throw in quite a few match ups.
 

jmanup85

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Which ones? I could definitely see Bowser, Ditto, and shield shulk, but are there any others you think, and if so why?
Characters that have bad landings are characters you'd generally wanna up throw in general. On stages with platforms and who have issues with pressure from underneath are also good. So on big flat stages you can do this to Olimar, DK, ROB, Bowser, Ditto, Shield Shulk, Mac, Ike and to a lesser extent Marth. Keep in mind you can use down throw to get strings at low to mid percents and when that doesn't work then use back, front, and up throw. Diddy is susceptible to up throw on BF-like stages because he hates dealing with you when he's on a platform and you're under him.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
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You guys really have one of the finest matchup threads I've seen.

It's detailed. It's active.

Awesome.

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-ganondorf.425287/

I'll be brief though. We Charizard mains are talking about the Ganondorf vs Charizard matchup. We'd like to hear what you guys think, so come on over and show us how the king of evil does his fighting! :4ganondorf:
 

Theosmeo

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It´s impossible for a Ganon to lose the Dorf ditto, no room for discussion!
 
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