Guide The Competitive Kirby [ver 2.1]

[Kewkky]

If you and I are in a room together, and I don't want you to walk to the left of me, I pour lava to the left of me.

The end.

While if you hold the bucket of lava I can't go anywhere near you for fear of lava being poured on me...

I seriously give up.

I have lol'd.

Ryuu, let's see if I can explain it this way...

* Walling prevents your opponent from getting in onto your character. This way, chances are you'll be spending the time keeping him out of your area instead of aiming for damage.
* Zoning's goal is to wall a specific area so that your opponent stays away from that area. Some forms of zoning leave an 'opening' where your character tries to get to you, when in actuality that opening is a trap that you set for your opponent and when they fall for that trap you can capitalize and increase your lead/take an early stock. The downside here is that while you zone, if your opponent realizes what you're trying to do, you might THINK he's falling for your trap and start up the punishment when the opponent was the one waiting for you to do that so HE could punish YOU!

In conclusion... Walling = mindless defense. Zoning = smart defense.


As for the lava example, what if BunBun had a knife and the building you guys were in was on fire, while he blocked the exit? Would it be better to pour lava on the floor next to him so that you can ONLY approach from the other side, or risk missing by throwing the lava at you and having no plan to stab you easier with?

 

[Nashun]

Geez, you guys are getting all complicated. I said you attack with the assumption you're not going to hit, not attack with the intention of not hitting!

 

[BunBun]

Kewkky is a far more patient person than I.

 

[Triple R]

.......

Ice is the European m2k because he plays fox, sheik and marth, the same as m2k... -___-

Also Hack has been playing Kirby for years, it's nothing new....

Well that explains why people were comparing him to m2k. That makes sense.

I'm not sure what you're responding to when you say he's been playing Kirby for years. When I said he's lucky for only playing Kirby two sets, I meant at that tourney not for all time. Otherwise I don't know why you made that comment.

 

[Massive]

This Ryuu Seika dude is seriously making me lol.

That fox matchup is hell. All he needs to do is CC and press up on the C-stick.
F*cking ********.

 

[ryuu seika]

* Walling prevents your opponent from getting in onto your character. This way, chances are you'll be spending the time keeping him out of your area instead of aiming for damage.

That's no fun.

* Zoning's goal is to wall a specific area so that your opponent stays away from that area. Some forms of zoning leave an 'opening' where your character tries to get to you, when in actuality that opening is a trap that you set for your opponent and when they fall for that trap you can capitalize and increase your lead/take an early stock. The downside here is that while you zone, if your opponent realizes what you're trying to do, you might THINK he's falling for your trap and start up the punishment when the opponent was the one waiting for you to do that so HE could punish YOU!

So, put simply, it's baiting a response, as I thought it was from the beginning? If so, why did we go through all this nonsense when someone could have just said "yes" a page or two ago?

 

[Massive]

You probably shouldn't oversimplify zoning...
Saying "oh I get it, it's a baiting tactic!" and then disregarding the extra information is akin to happening upon a lion and saying "oh I get it, it's a type of kitten!".

 

[Nashun]

Zoning is just controlling space. The implications of such a simple statement are obvious.

 

[Massive]

Wavedashing is just sliding on the ground.
Moonwalking is just starting to dash and then sliding the other way.
Mindgames are just tricking your opponent into acting a certain way, then exploiting it.

Notice that these statements are accurately describing the technique but really don't help you preform them?
People are/were just trying to give an accurate description; feel free, however, to disregard all that extra info if you don't think it's helpful.

After all, winning is just defeating your opponent through tactics or luck.
The implications of such a simple statement are obvious.

 

[ryuu seika]

happening upon a lion and saying "oh I get it, it's a type of kitten!".

both are vicious beasts and best left alone. The difference is that lions are notoriously lazy.

Moonwalking is just starting to dash and then sliding the other way.

That actually helps a lot...

 

[BunBun]

Massive, are you coming to SMYM?

 

[Massive]

All signs point to yes.

I wonder if we can do 2 teams entries, one for a regular team and one for TEAM DOUBLEKIRBY.

 

[ryuu seika]

Starshot them straight into Swallowcide over and over?

 

[Massive]

BunBun loves the swallowcides.
I'm more of an recovery gimp type of guy.

Well, that and grab > JUSTICEHAMMER

 

[ryuu seika]

Gotta love that Justice Hammer! It's a shame Kirby's Hammer isn't that good.

My point with Starshot -> Swallowcide was that it lets you Swallowcide from nowhere near the edge if you coordinate your actions well. It sounds broken.

Speaking of broken, wouldn't it be awesome if we got Justice Hammer. Maybe throw in Rest for good measure.

 

[Massive]

Starshot->Swallowcide is cool, but it's difficult to find a time where neither opposing teammate is attacking or in the correct place to do it.

A more reliable collaboration is one kirby grabs, the other sweetspots a hammer hit. It's like doing a half strength team Falcon punch combo.

 

[ryuu seika]

Or you could, y'know, swallow Falcon...

 

[BunBun]

Starshot->Swallowcide is cool, but it's difficult to find a time where neither opposing teammate is attacking or in the correct place to do it.

A more reliable collaboration is one kirby grabs, the other sweetspots a hammer hit. It's like doing a half strength team Falcon punch combo.

Moogle and I have gotten Starshot > Swallowside in tournament =D
Also, I always recover after a Swallowside.



Hmm, I dunno Massive, but we can certainly MM people. We shoulda done a lot better at HDR.
I think I'm teaming with Jekyll for actual teams tourney though.

 

[ryuu seika]

Moogle and I have gotten Starshot > Swallowside in tournament =D
Also, I always recover after a Swallowside.

And is it not broken when you can kill anyone from anywhere so long as their team is separated?

 

[Zoler]

this guy is too funny lool

 

[ryuu seika]

People like to laugh at me but I'm merely trying (and failing) to understand the intricacies of the tournament style of play as it differs greatly from my own and doesn't totally mesh with my way of thinking.

EDIT: the main thing I've never understood about the tournament player mentality is the idea that your stocks are somehow worth more than theirs. I would have thought that, as four double KOs (in the form of Swallowcide) means you win, you should value their stocks above your own, not minding in the slightest about losing stocks unless they aren't losing them as fast.

 

[BunBun]

With how quickly momentum can change and how fast a single stock can be lost, I would rather play it safe and NOT be doing a 1 stock v 1 stock at the very end.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yeah, it's preferable not to die but it's also a good idea to hit your opponent at some point. To me atleast, the latter matters more.

 

[Nashun]

reason matches are played with 4 stocks instead of 1 is to reduce variance. better players want more stocks.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

and the inverse of what nashun said, worse players want fewer stocks, is true too. So if you think your worse than the opponent you might as well have it come down to one stock vs one stock.

 

[Massive]

Hmm, I dunno Massive, but we can certainly MM people. We shoulda done a lot better at HDR.
I think I'm teaming with Jekyll for actual teams tourney though.

I'd be down to MM dudes. My kirby is now intimidating, fire shoots out of his feet when he's about to grab someone, the flames rushing past their bodies as Kirby opens one of his 7 mouths and sings the song that ends the world.

 

[ryuu seika]

So if you think your worse than the opponent you might as well have it come down to one stock vs one stock.

If less willing to abuse WDing counts as less skilled then yeah, I'm worse than the lot of you. Does it matter though when that final struggle is well weighted in favour of the Kirby player?

 

[Massive]

If less willing to abuse WDing counts as less skilled then yeah, I'm worse than the lot of you. Does it matter though when that final struggle is well weighted in favour of the Kirby player?

The struggle is never weighted in Kirby's favor.
There is not a single match-up he has any significant advantage in.

The best you can hope for is an even matchup.
The beauty of melee however, is that you can totally beat people by being more skilled or lucky than them, even with the odds stacked against you.

 

[ryuu seika]

I think you'll find that by the time stocks reach one all, the opponent will take almost any chance the can get to try and end it. At which point all that's needed is to sit by the edge and wait.

Kirby has no significant advantage in any particular match but that doesn't mean he doesn't have one in particular parts of the match. Namely those at the edge and at one stock all.

 

[Seikend]

The problem is you assume your opponent is going to play dumb. Not all players will be desperate for the kill.

People won't be aggressive unless they need to.

Using that tactic when you have a stock advantage is a better idea than at 1v1. They have to approach then.

 

[ryuu seika]

Clearly you shouldn't take my "sit by the edge and wait" that literally but luring them that way should work atleast some times.

 

[BunBun]

Only against people playing dumb.

 

[Massive]

Clearly you shouldn't take my "sit by the edge and wait" that literally but luring them that way should work atleast some times.

Have you ever actually played anyone decent as kirby?

There is such a huge amount of start-up and recovery time on swallow, it's not a good luring tactic. Next are you going to advocate killing people with backthrow on that last stock?

 

[ryuu seika]

Have you ever actually played anyone decent as kirby?

No.

Next are you going to advocate killing people with backthrow on that last stock?

Don't be ridiculous, throws suck.

 

[BunBun]

Have you ever actually played anyone decent as kirby?

There is such a huge amount of start-up and recovery time on swallow, it's not a good luring tactic. Next are you going to advocate killing people with backthrow on that last stock?

I advocate it. Kirby is pretty good at winning sudden death lol.

 

[ryuu seika]

I thought "sudden death" was banned.

 

[Massive]

I advocate it. Kirby is pretty good at winning sudden death lol.

It's like that looney tunes episode where Daffy Duck eats the nitroglycerin and then swallows a match...
It only works once

Don't be ridiculous, throws suck.

I dunno, down-throw is an amazing combo starter on everybody but Jigglypuff .
Plus you can techchase some of the slower rollers pretty effectively with it.

 

[Triple R]

Bthrowing a spacey towards the edge of a stage traps them and makes for easy techchasing, just saying.... Kirby's throws aren't that bad. Just bad relative to top tier characters.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

tripler why dont you show them your new vids?

these are doubles finals featuring kirby teaming with falcon and marth, playing against spacies and pikachu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJNwHkNp4bY loser's finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjlN-Jn2GX8 grand finals 1-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwzsQINEDrg grand finals 2-2


edit - i dont think they're anything special really. i just know kirbys are always short on vids so yeah

 

[Massive]

I've never seen that many swallow KOs from on the stage... I didn't even think that was possible.
If Kirby sucks you in and lands on the stage, you can ALWAYS struggle out of it before he gets over the ledge. I guess it works to your advantage if they don't know that though, lol.

Bthrowing a spacey towards the edge of a stage traps them and makes for easy techchasing, just saying.... Kirby's throws aren't that bad. Just bad relative to top tier characters.

Fthrow and Bthrow are awesome when they don't do anything during the animation, but if they pop out of it you can get punished SO HARD.