Social The Charizard Social: Merry Switchmas!

[UtahCharizard]

Soooo happy about Charizards buffs xD. Now people will definitely stop saying zard is bottom tier.

 

[SmashRacer]

Just noticed something about Rising Cyclone. The Aerial version goes higher than the grounded version, similar to Little Mac's Star Uppercut but opposite. The sound heard from the Aerial version is also different from the grounded version

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Does anyone else use non-custom Charizard? I never use customs because frankly I'm not a fan of them, but usually when I hear something about Charizard in Smash 4, people are always pairing him with customs.
I actually got called dumb for using non-custom Charizard on Smashladder, even though I did whoop him.

I'm really not liking how customs are affecting people's behavior, as if you're "bad" for using/not using certain moves/customs.

 

[SkyboundTerror]

I don't use customs with Charizard. I personally think vanilla is the best, but you have to work twice as hard for reads and frame-trapping for a victorious Flare Blitz. It's much more rewarding than Dragon Rush. At any rate, it's just a preference since most of Charizard's beauty comes down to how well you can use his standard attacks.

Custom moves shouldn't and can't single-handedly win you games, though I'm noticing that some people treat them as such.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Custom moves shouldn't and can't single-handedly win you games, though I'm noticing that some people treat them as such.

This is why I ****ing hate custom moves. People rely on 1 or 2 custom moves to carry them and cheese them through matches without much skill, and it sucks. (Looking at you, DK)

But yeah, I play everyone vanilla. I don't touch customs.

 

[Charey]

I only use dragon rush for customs, and even with DR I don't use side-b a lot because it still isn't very safe. Partly this is a self imposed restriction because I was getting bad habits from overusing customs. Most of his default moves are better then the customs in most match-ups.

I will take Flare Blitz against zoners because the armor lets me go through the wall of cheese.

Either way, the new down throw does more for Zard then any custom set.

 

[Marrow]

I love custom Zard, and as amazing as Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl are for what they do, I prioritize learning 1111 for my characters. You're not reliant on cheese to win your matches --- even if you're using a stupid good custom --- and in the event that a custom set's failing you, you have a fallback.

god that sounded like a campaign promise

 

[UtahCharizard]

Depends on who the other character is I guess. Dragon Rush is really good, but against projectile based Chars i prefer having flare blitz

 

[-LzR-]

Unless Flare Blitz has received a major buff recently it's still only viable in a couple matchups over Dragon Rush.
Stop treating customs are some kind of cheesy stuff. Assume there is no default set and that you are simply allowed to choose the ones you prefer and it will be much better. With customs even Charizard has a lot of different playstyles which is the only thing Smash4 has over Brawl so far.

 

[Steeler]

I agree there are just a handful of customs that are good enough to spam, but what if standard Flamethrower was a custom move and something ****ty like Fireball Cannon were the standard?

Everyone would be crying about "custom Zard has best projectile in the game" or "one of Zard's customs hits every recovery before they grab the ledge" or "how do you beat custom Zard fire you can't punish it"

"Honorable" Zards would be talking about "I don't use custom Zard, he is so campy and lame" and "I prefer to work for my edgeguards I don't need that free damage"

Nonsense.

Even something like Windy Kong has counterplay. Charizard gets a guaranteed Fly and maybe Rock Smash out of getting carried by it.

 

[-LzR-]

Aaaaah well said.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I don't condemn all customs, if that's what it sounded like. Just people who take literally 1-2 customs and spam them the whole match.

Also I don't use customs because I just like the vanilla characters.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I love customs. I honestly don't get all this "Customs are Cheese" nonsense. The way i see it, they keep the game fresh and interesting. They give characters options that can help them in match ups that were hugely skewed in the opponents favor.

I'm personally going to start taking Fireball cannon instead of flamethrower vs characters like Yoshi and ZSS. It'll allow me to make use of Flamethrower's disruption, without having to worry about getting egg toss'd or flip kick'd.



There are some customs that are flat out beter than vanilla sets, but then you have characters like Ness, Lucario, and Bowser Jr whose customs are purely preference. You can have two high level Bowser Jr players who play the character in vastly different ways simply because one prefers one custom side B over the other. We're talking diversity in playstyles here.

It's basically Sakurai's way of saying, "Here have some variety". Tired of shiek abusing her needle game against you? Switch to Canon and let her have some fire before the match even starts. Tired of luma getting in the way? Dragon Rush it offstage and watch it fall it it's death. Want to switch things up and keep it fresh? Switch to Blast Burn and go for a Full-out YOLO playstyle. Win entire matches off of one read.



I think the reason why people spam certain customs the way they do is because it's fun. I mean. Imagine you're DK. You've been combo'd by Marios, Needle Camp'd by shieks, Beaten into submission by ZSS. Then you get this awesome move that lets you acutally compete with these characters in the neutral. Suddenly they have a reason to be scared of you. They used to make you scared of messing up or you'd end up eating a 60% in Uairs with there being little you can do to avoid the situation. Now, suddenly have to be scared themselves because if they mess up, they're going to get tossed around like a rag doll. The power is back in your hands! And that feeling can be... addicting...

Customs are only jank right now because they force people to rethink certain matchups, but once we have them figured out, it'll just be a matter of making the right adaptations. Custom moves are a fun new additon, so let people have their giggles with them while they figure out how the moves should be used.

--end rant--

 

[Shog]

That was beatiful Kumaru

I am also a big fan of custom moves, due to giving you more options! Rock Hurl is interesting, Dragon Rush is great. I love them

 

[SmashRacer]

Speaking of custom moves. This may sound crazy but on D3 from 73%, Down Throw into Rising Cyclone is a true combo and it kills. The timing is a bit strict though.
Here's the GIF:
http://www.gfycat.com/HalfWhoppingArmyant#?speed=0.5
I would use Rock Hurl with Dragon Rush against a character that can combo you for days, otherwise it's just Dragon Rush. I haven't really used Flare Blitz with Customs On or just Rock Hurl.

Also well spoken Kumaru

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I honestly don't get all this "Customs are Cheese" nonsense. The way i see it, they keep the game fresh and interesting.

I'm not saying all of them are, just the ones that are spammable and abused.

I don't know if it's just me, but I honestly find it boring and frustrating watching a stream tournament where there's a custom DK doing nothing but abusing the cyclone up-B. I don't find it fresh and interesting at all to see some customs used as a way to override skill.
Same goes for Trip Sapling + Exploding Balloons and some others.

Don't get me wrong, that's only a tiny percentage of customs, and I'm fine with the others. Sure, I prefer to not play with customs, but I'm fine with people using all those other customs.

The only reason I brought this up is because on so many streams where there's a custom DK, Villager, etc. who spams only those 1-2 moves the entire match, they go in chat and brag about how they're so cool and actually say how the custom move(s) carries them and whatnot, and it's just so frustrating.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I'm not saying all of them are, just the ones that are spammable and abused.

I don't know if it's just me, but I honestly find it boring and frustrating watching a stream tournament where there's a custom DK doing nothing but abusing the cyclone up-B. I don't find it fresh and interesting at all to see some customs used as a way to override skill.
Same goes for Trip Sapling + Exploding Balloons and some others.

Don't get me wrong, that's only a tiny percentage of customs, and I'm fine with the others. Sure, I prefer to not play with customs, but I'm fine with people using all those other customs.

The only reason I brought this up is because on so many streams where there's a custom DK, Villager, etc. who spams only those 1-2 moves the entire match, they go in chat and brag about how they're so cool and actually say how the custom move(s) carries them and whatnot, and it's just so frustrating.

I uhh... I see where you're coming from and all... but the game's already like that.

https://youtu.be/LKd9PDEdqpM?t=196

Replace Kong Cyclone and Tripping sappling with Sheik Fair and bouncing fish.

Suure, this is zero we're talking about here, but he manages to win this grand finals set by spamming the same two moves.

If someone falls for the same things over and over, that isn't the move's fault. That just means the right adaptations aren't being made



Kong Cyclone and Tripping cyclone are so effective because they excel at breaking the neutral. It's annoying, but it's nothing we haven't seen from the top tiers already.

Sheik has needles that come out too quick to react to. This move alone shuts down so many characters with poor approach games.

Luigi Fireballs are spammable and positive on shield. This move alone lets luigi dictate the neutral against any chracter without a projectile

Pikachu's Tjolt is much like luigi fireballs, except that pikachu an run behind them. Quick Attack is a safe and spammable move in neutral that lets pikachu do whatever he wants.

ZSS and Falcon can litterally combo you to KO percent with only Uairs. ZSS can even combo into her KO moves with them.

Don't even get me started on Fox's jab infinite


People are going to spam moves so long as it continues to work in smash bros. It's just part of the game. Its up to us to figure out what counterplay the move has and work around it.



Edit: Read over this post again. It came out way more attack-eyy than intended. But it should be fixed now ^^

 

[SkyboundTerror]

Lol, the problem here aren't the customs themselves, it's the attitude some players have towards them, as mentioned by the Dr. They're often treated as an end-all that makes "bad" characters playable by abusing a single special, and that's incredibly ignorant, as well as insulting to the players who put a lot of time to make their unappreciated characters known by utilizing actual setups, strings, and combos.

Let's look at Charizard's Dragon Rush. This is my opinion, but I think it's incredibly overrated and hailed too often as the one saving grace Charizard has. This is utter bull**** and it bothers me that some people think a character's potential is dictated entirely by a single move. I had recently attended a tournament where a Charizard main only spammed Dragon Rush and Rising Cyclone, and he got pretty far, too, and because of that, he now thinks it's a legitimate strategy to be throwing out.

It's kinda sad to see, and frustrating to see.

Most of the abuse comes from the customs' unknown capabilities, and surprise factor. That's not saying we can't learn and adapt, but some customs can cheat players out of an actual fun/gripping/clutch match simply because those who rely on them don't understand that using a custom set doesn't freeze up your A button.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I appreciate all the input regarding my slight beef with some customs, and I especially thank you @ Grizzlpaw for being so respectful with your counter-argument.
Having constructive discussion is always great.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I only hate Villager with customs, I think he makes me hate the game when he has them.

Other than that I love them.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

I only hate Villager with customs, I think he makes me hate the game when he has them.

Other than that I love them.

Trip Sap on DL64 is even more annoying, and this is coming from a Villager main. I'm too hoping for a nerf.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I haven't encountered a custom Villager yet, but I've seen videos of them and I sure as heck don't want to encounter them.

 

[SmashRacer]

Custom Villager. The campiest character in history of Smash

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Custom Villager. The campiest character in history of Smash

Most Villagers don't camp w/ customs except ADHD, he's practically the reason you'll see any Villager planking w/ explosive balloons...

 

[Luco]

Made this post in the Competitive Impressions thread, thought you guys might like to see it. Also I'm really out of the loop and can only hear select things but I've also heard your new Dthrow now functions as a combo throw? If so then this character is whack. Which, I love. Charizard is and always has been my favourite pokemon. Enjoy, Char's part is the second paragraph onwards but it all leads into each other. We were talking about Mewtwo originally at the time:

When it's against half of the top tiers which have reliable, low risk kill confirms, then yes Mewtwo's weight makes a difference. Against DHD you can waltz around and avoid the kill and increase the number of hits required before DHD starts to kill off of less risky/predictable moves. Against or who have kill throws or reliable setups, suddenly the weight becomes REALLY notable. Especially when there's such a stigma towards it, everyone kinda "knows" and goes for the kill more appropriately against these characters. In this thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ ) It's really noticeable for us that we can kill Mewtwo at 0% rage from centre-FD at 112% as opposed to, say, Yoshi's 135%. With rage suddenly Mewtwo drops down to the 80s and 90s and that's a big deal. And we KNOW to go for the grab at those percents. So yes, although weight isn't always a death sentence for Mewtwo, it's definitely noticeable enough to make a difference against characters with reliable kill confirms. Add to this Mewtwo's other iffy design traits and it really does stack up, as others have said.

Which brings me to the point I actually came here to make - M2K switching to Charizard doesn't surprise me. Giving that character a kill throw is whack. Unlike Mewtwo, Charizard can live consistently longer against the top tiers that kill more consistently to the point where rage does the work for him. AND on a stage like BF suddenly he's living to 130-140% and Uthrow is killing you off the top platform at sub-100% CONSISTENTLY because a killing Uthrow will always be harder to live against than any Bthrow/Fthrow. The fact that Charizard can kill Mario (MARIO, a heavier-than-average character) WITH NO RAGE at SUB-100% with no/little DI on Mario's part is already insane should he get the grab at centre-stage on DL.

I can't stress NEARLY ENOUGH what a kill throw has done for this character. Give it a bit of time, I would not be surprised at all if this trait alone shot Charizard up more than a single tier. Calling it now~

The reign of has begun.

 

[SmashRacer]

So I was browsing on SmashBros Reddit and I found this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3auwy1/trelas_charizard_reaches_top_3_at_tgc_3_128_man/
Right on Trela! Repping The Blazing Fury

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Oh for the last time Reddit. Charizard isn't low tier!

 

[SmashRacer]

Oh for the last time Reddit. Charizard isn't low tier!

He definetly isn't low tier with these changes

 

[WingedKnight]

Oh for the last time Reddit. Charizard isn't low tier!

I love Charizard, and he certainly had some cool tricks, but I do believe he was low tier prior to these changes. How close to the bottom, I'm not sure, but nearer to there than the top. He had strengths, he had very real flaws, and it didn't quite pan out positively. It's more a testament to the balance and small gap between character abilities in this game that he had any capability to perform somewhat viably.

HOWEVER this patch is a game changer. I believe just by virtue of having better damage racking options and a kill that perfectly matches his play style he becomes much more capable. I'm guessing solidly middle pack now, and potentially able to put up some better numbers in the tourney scene. He's caught the eye of some high level players for sure. Time will tell if he lives up to or exceeds expectations.

 

[Shog]

Up Throw definitely changes a lot...
It looks flashy as TM70 / HM05 , this is important people! S E I S M I C T O S S B O Y S

Charizard has a grab which is simply outstanding...giving him a reliable, rage-boosted kill option is just...superb. For me it is obvious that the patch makes him go higher on tierlist. I hope some good player make him even better!!

...Another thing
I have to admit though, I am to dumb to make anything out of the new Downthrow. Can someone give me one good followup out from it? I can't even get Fair *shame*

 

[WingedKnight]

Trying buffering your movement during the roast part of the down throw. Learn the percentages that work best with each move in training or on the thread discussions here. Fair has good range and damage, should be a good one to practice with. Dthrow is nearly as important as Uthrow with this patch, helping Charizard get opponents to Seismic Toss kill percentages.

 

[ZephyrZ]

First they use Mega Charizard Y to promote the new Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, and now this?
It's like Pokmeon is finally starting to remember that MegaZardY is a thing.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Just thought that it would be appropriate to leave a link to this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-thread-week3-captain-falcon-donkey-kong.392896/

This match-up thread needs some serious revamping to allow for individual discussions of each match-up, as I noticed that the original system would be halted for months for just a few characters. I'll try and give a brief summary of how this would be different.

There would be a stickied thread at the top of the list, containing summaries of match-ups - These summaries, or overviews, would draw from individual discussions on separate threads. For each match-up, a new thread would be made to centralize on it more deeply. This wouldn't alienate anyone who only had a few match-ups to contribute to. At the end of each summary would be a link to the original discussion, and maybe credits to whoever took part in it.

Feedback would be much appreciated. I understand that it's taken quite a while to get past a few characters, but I honestly think this is worth an experiment. If it were to pass, the first match-up thread/summary would be Charizard, to get a general idea of how the character plays, and set a format.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Does anyone else use non-custom Charizard? I never use customs because frankly I'm not a fan of them, but usually when I hear something about Charizard in Smash 4, people are always pairing him with customs.

I barely have any customs for Zard, so I'm kinda stuck with default Zard. But honestly, even default Zard isn't that bad; he's not low-tier, more low-mid or mid-mid tier, honestly. He's good, but has a bit of learning to him. He's no Sonic, where you can go in guns blazing and do well.

With customs, he and Ganondorf definitely shoot up a bit, but even base Zard can do work if you know how to play him. It's just hard to do that when everyone expects a Charizard to Flare Blitz for days and you, despite being the most aerially mobile of the heavyweights, can't recover from offstage reliably horizontally without damaging yourself in a non-customs match.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just thought that it would be appropriate to leave a link to this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-thread-week3-captain-falcon-donkey-kong.392896/

This match-up thread needs some serious revamping to allow for individual discussions of each match-up, as I noticed that the original system would be halted for months for just a few characters. I'll try and give a brief summary of how this would be different.

There would be a stickied thread at the top of the list, containing summaries of match-ups - These summaries, or overviews, would draw from individual discussions on separate threads. For each match-up, a new thread would be made to centralize on it more deeply. This wouldn't alienate anyone who only had a few match-ups to contribute to. At the end of each summary would be a link to the original discussion, and maybe credits to whoever took part in it.

Feedback would be much appreciated. I understand that it's taken quite a while to get past a few characters, but I honestly think this is worth an experiment. If it were to pass, the first match-up thread/summary would be Charizard, to get a general idea of how the character plays, and set a format.

So multiple threads?

Interesting. Let me PM you.

 

[link and ike lover]

Is there any good Charizard mains?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Is there any good Charizard mains?

:3

 

[link and ike lover]

:3

Nice lol

 

[nexusdragon]

Is there any good Charizard mains?

Try Trella

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So now we got a brand new Matchup Discussion system.

We stole the R.O.B. mains' format.

Not sorry @GwJ

Just extremely grateful.

Either way, check it out everyone!

http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-mega-evolve-charizard-matchup-archive.407883/

Special thanks to @ -LzR- and @ MintyBreeze