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The Character Statistics Thread

MorpheusVGX

Smash Journeyman
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Nice. I am glad you have the time and desire to help. Remember that if you can find the data for KO on mario in FD in other threads, it will save you some time. Go ahead with those characters you mentioned. The thing is that I am not sure how they handle KO for moves you can't not sweetspot if your opponnent is on the ground. In those cases I think we should do the tests ourselves (for that moves). In the case of moves that have probability we should consider it too. For example, peach Fsmash has one third of probability to KO at some percentage, and 2 other thirds to some other percentage, so get the score of each sweetspoted smash and divide it by one third. I will have to do that with turnips and with DDD's minions.
 

mountain_tiger

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OK, so far I've got the data for Ganondorf, Samus and Jigglypuff, based on your scoring system:

Ganondorf: 17,013.5
Samus: 15,345
Jigglypuff: 14,268.5
 

Denzi

Smash Master
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I am a little confused on how Falco isn't first on the Jump Height list. He has the highest initial jump in the game, and even if it isn't(it is) It'd still be higher than MK's.

Edit: Your results are probably a bit skewed because(as long as I'm reading it right) there were actually two factors in your test: jump height and horizontal air speed. You might want to find some other way of testing.

Edit2: Fall speed is also a factor.
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
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Fromundman. the grab durations are in alphabetical order so MK isnt necasarily slower than Kirby just because hes lower on the list. I couldnt even find out how long Kirbys grab lasts. All I did was take info from the different character boards.
Right, but I was talking about what the numbers say.
 

Bellioes

Smash Lord
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Actually Denzi, I had the same question but they actually arent factors at all. All hes doing is jumping straight up through a ramp until he finds the furthest up the ramp a character can jump. From there, he falls through the platform to measure the number of blocks he is from the beginning of the ramp (the farther foward, the higher the jump height) He doesnt do anything but jump up.

EDIT: @Morpheus, I was thinking of dividing the numbers so we could see that characters average killing percent. It wouldnt change the order so why not?
 

Supersun

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
158
The only problem I see with your scoring system is that if a character has an attack that doesn't kill his score gets hit hard. Most attacks can kill at a percentage but because they are subtracting from 999 even a simple jab can earn like 500 points. So if a character has an attack that doesn't kill he gets no points from it. The scoring then becomes who has the most attacks that can kill at all.

My suggestion would be to first only consider a move if it kills by a certain percent like 150%-200% (depends what you consider a kill move). Then just average all the moves. The only problem with this method is if 2 characters have identical kill percents except for 1 move that for one person kills at 150% and the other person kills at 151% the person with the move at 151% will actually look like they kill better.
 

MorpheusVGX

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I am a little confused on how Falco isn't first on the Jump Height list. He has the highest initial jump in the game, and even if it isn't(it is) It'd still be higher than MK's.

Edit: Your results are probably a bit skewed because(as long as I'm reading it right) there were actually two factors in your test: jump height and horizontal air speed. You might want to find some other way of testing.

Edit2: Fall speed is also a factor.
I do not use horizontal air speed. I do not fall to test anything. I think you did not understand my method. Please read carefully. ^^ I explained it a lot.

Supersun. You may be right. I was thinking about that. But if you look at it. In terms of KO potential, a move that cannot kill is truly no option for a character, so it deserves no points. A move that can kill at some percentage may be an option but it is true that will be rarely used (who gets to 400%?).
I thought that having few powerful moves, rather than a lot of weak moves that can kill at very high percentages, is probably better. So, instead of considering the score for each move linearly, we could consider it like a curve. Our exponent could be 2 (we must decide this number).

Example:
A move kills at 150%. We have 999 - 150 = 849. Then 849^2 = 720801 points
A move kills at 100% . We have 999 - 100 = 899. Then 899^2 = 808201 points
A move kills at 50% . We have 999 - 50 = 949. Then 949^2 = 900601 points

The point is that score does not increase linearly with (999% - KO%) but exponentially (a curve if you make a graphic). As we are getting giant numbers, I think we should divide these scores by 10000.

This way, attacks that kill early will get a much more points, and those who kill late will get fewer points than before (relative to more powerful moves). Moves that cannot kill will still get zero.

Did I explained myself properly? What do you think of this method?
If you want to get a KO% average is ok with me. But this new scoring method does not match with that average I am afraid.

I was also thinking we could use 300% (sudden death value) for the substraction and not 999%. Killing someone with an attack that kills beyond 300% is unllikely to happen anyway. Maybe we could just change this on the method and do it linearly. (Also, this way, the average ranking will match with the score ranking).

Note: For those who are testing this, I suggest we get the KO% for each move until we decide the best scoring method.
 

Flayl

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I'd say stop counting moves as a "kill move" if it can't kill at <= 150%

And then use the formula you have, 150 - X and add them all up.

Maybe 150% isn't the best number, something like 130% or so might be more relevant.
 

Bellioes

Smash Lord
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Wow, Morpheus you are awesome. The method that you posted above actually works very well. Since itll give you a very accurate idea of who has more KO potentiel cause of how its measured (exponentially), we can very accurately determine which characters kill more easily than others. Im all for doing it that way. The linear way but starting at 300% still seems sortve inaccurate to me; I believe its the same as doing 100 man melee on very easy. Moves that really arnt that good at killing are useful in those situations (DKs DownB) but would never kill in real life making certain characters killing value higher than it should be.
 

MorpheusVGX

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Thank you Bellious. Then we should use those new considerations in our method. I think that something that kills at 200% is still useful sometimes. It may not be a killing move but in the heat of a difficult battle, it adds to the killing options a character has, while a move that can never kills adds nothing. DI is making people live a lot nowadays. Also, if you are closer to the blast zone, those moves will kill you sooner. So we will substract with 300%. I am thinking if 2 is a proper pow. I will test with 3. In fact, as I am a game programmer, I will code something that take some parameters and do the math. I will do it in flash so I can share it easily with you.
 

mountain_tiger

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Hey Morpheus, just thought I'd let you know that I'm not sure if I can do all those characters now. Some other stuff has suddenly come up. I might do some of them later, but I can't promise anything. Sorry about this.
 

Bellioes

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Yeah the Diddy boards are sortve getting revamped so Im helping a lot more over there. Ill try to help with testing this weekend (no more examens :)) but like mountain tiger, I cant promise anything.
 

MorpheusVGX

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Don't worry guys. I wasn't able either. I was doing other things and playing smash to become better. This take a lot of time so let's get the data character by character. I need stitchface turnip KO% and I can get the score for Peach. When I am able to gather KO info for another character I will post it here.
 

Meru.

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Ness 0.980
Pit 0.980
Lucas 0.980
Diddy Kong 0.975
Toon Link 0.970
Ice Climber 0.970
Peach 0.960
Marth 0.944
Loool, Marth weights less than Peach, Ness, Lucas, IC's and TL.

4-29 / 49 Toon Link
4-29 / 49 Captain Falcon
4-29 / 49 Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49 Marth
4-19 / 49 Peach
This makes me cry.
 

MysticKenji

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Orlando, FL / Pittsburgh, PA
I am a little confused on how Falco isn't first on the Jump Height list. He has the highest initial jump in the game, and even if it isn't(it is) It'd still be higher than MK's.
That's because he's including all jumps not 1st jump only.

A list like that is closer to this...

0.5: -
~: Jiggs
1: Ganon / Kirby / G&W / Snake
~: Peach / Wario / Link / Pit / MK / Zard / Ike / Lucas
1.5: Mario / Bowser / DK / Yoshi / Zelda / TL / Samus / ICs / DDD / Olimar / Fox / Wolf / Falcon / Pikachu / Squirtle / Ivysaur / Marth / Ness / Sonic
~: Shiek / ROB / Lucario
2: Luigi / Diddy / ZSS
~: Falco
2.5: -
 

smashkng

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Has anyone worked with ground jump height? I have only proven with few characters but I found Mario's ground jump is surprisingly low and DK jumps about as high as Luigi.
 

zeldspazz

Smash Master
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Dec 29, 2008
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I'm gonna test who can go the highest vertically just for fun ^^ not using ATs though cus I dont know all of them.
 

Browny

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Sonic can no question
Spring, dair. jump back on spring, double jump, spring again

Wario might be second with full charge waft, bike jump double jump.

For the record Snake can not go higher, as his C4 recovery will KO him. Sonic and Wario can travel above the blast zone without getting Star KO'd as they are not in hitstun
 

smashkng

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Will this thread have the overall attack speed, overall kill power and overall attack range?
 

Jobes

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Sep 24, 2009
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I'm not sure if this info is accurate, but I remember seeing someone say that Pika had the same dash speed as 'zard.
 

Aidoony

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The thing I said when I saw how long it was BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
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