The Character Statistics Thread

[ndayday]

[color=dof8db]I already started working on that, I sent you a PM. It's moderately easy getting the snapshots themselves, the only challenge is the measuring of the pixels. I'll figure it out though, I have a pretty good idea.

I forgot to put the number of blocks cleared for Mario in the PM, btw. It's three, if you absolutely must know.[/color]

 

[Bellioes]

Wait if NAKED3 is doing jump heights frame by frame, shouldnt he be able to figure out vertical air speed too. All he has to do is divide his results by the number of frames it took them to get to the peak of their jump and their you have it; vertical air distance covered per frame. I mean if hes already doing it, itll be a lot more accurate than timing each characters jump cause of human error. But I like the 10 character idea for attack/grab range. I can have character grab range up by this weekend. Ill test on FD as use the small squares as measurement.
Heres what I think would work; Put the characters front foot on a square and move forward square by square until Im able to grab the other character (Ill probably use Bowser cause of his size) What do you think?

 

[ndayday]

Just call me Naked or ND3, whatever you want.

I think I said this before, but the I think Jiggly boards found a pretty accurate way to test grab range.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

[color=dof8db]I already started working on that, I sent you a PM. It's moderately easy getting the snapshots themselves, the only challenge is the measuring of the pixels. I'll figure it out though, I have a pretty good idea.

I forgot to put the number of blocks cleared for Mario in the PM, btw. It's three, if you absolutely must know.[/color]

I just saw your PM. Nice work you are doing. I think that taking so many snapshots will tire you. I think one is enough. Another important thing is that jumping is measured from the feet to the ground. That's why standing on the ramp in my method was proper.
I propose that you do the following. Use a ramp platform like I did and have blocks at your side (blocks aren't even necessary, but a grid on photoshop and a fixed camera distance). Walk and try reaching the ramp the higher you can. When you finally reach the ramp(be careful that heavy characters move a little down the ramp when they land. When you reach just perfect they won't do that), take the snapshot. All snapshots must be from a fixed distance. Then, the only important thing will be a grid you can put on the photoshop and use that to measure from the floor to where he is standing. I think it is not necessary to be THAT PRECISE with this.

 

[ndayday]

From the feet to the ground? I'll have to retest some of that stuff then.

Oh, and it'll be fine. I might not take tons of snapshots like you suggested though, otherwise I think it'll be pretty easy. I know how I'll make the marks showing how high certain characters jump, do I'm good there. I should have this done by, oh, next Friday at the latest. I have exams and stuff next week and this Friday.

 

[King Yo Lu De]

I wonder how long it took you to test and measure each characters abilities? But your statistics are really accurate! AWESOME !

 

[ndayday]

Credits to the actual threads/people that came up with the data would probably be a good idea. I know you said you'd do it later, but you really should do it now. Otherwise you'll get people like King here thinking you got it all.

 

[Crystanium]

The only data I tested myself is that of jumps. Other data is just a recopilation from well accepted charts on the internet.

There was information from Mr. Silver, and Samus was second. Do you have any other information of Peach being second in regard to fall speed?

 

[Bellioes]

He Naked, do you remember what their method was or not. I could go ask them but if you remember, could you post it. Thanks.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

There was information from Mr. Silver, and Samus was second. Do you have any other information of Peach being second in regard to fall speed?

My original source was this:

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Falling_speed

But, as many of you say, here is different (I just noticed that):

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Olimar is too different in both lists.

So the wiki one is wrong?

 

[B!squick]

Trust the SWF before Smash Wiki, always.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yeap.. I think you are right. I will change it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is really cool. I've been looking for a standardized list for spotdodge frames for ages. I think this will help me a lot.

 

[SSD]

For range, you could start by listing the longest ranged move of each character, in order of range(I'm thinking Samus Zair and Zamus side B being the top 2 lulz) as well as the shortest ranged move. It wouldn't be a complete average, but a start. To get the average, it would be best to look at the 2nd and 3rd longest move for each character, and see how different they are from the 1st move and each other, to make sure a character(samus) doesn't have a high average from one ridiculous move(zair).

Other things to list/test out would be
the duration of the other rolls - tech rolls, missed tech rolls(There might even be 4 of these - 2 for face up, 2 for face down.) and ledge rolls(2 of these, below 100% and above 100%)
The height of ledge jumps(if they aren't all the same)


I'll look into some of this myself, and post results here later.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Wow.. Yes.. there a lot of things we could measure. This thread will live for long. I suggest we start form what people would like to know better. And yes, your help is appreciated SSD.
I've just found a rich thread with running and walking speed and acceleration.
Here:

http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supersmashbros/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-42222051&pid=928518

I will take some information from here, and take it to my first page. I will give the credits to the author.

 

[ndayday]

You should add this too: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231480

Credit goes to AA.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I think I will organize it by order and then bring it here. Thanks.

 

[Bellioes]

Well guess what, AA has a grab frame data list somewhere so you could add that. ND3 already gave me the grab range testing method so Ill have the list up by no later than this weekend. Any other testing you want me to do?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Wow.. you are amazing. I really want to see that. I would like you to help me with Overall KO power. I can take some characters and you can take the others.

 

[Bellioes]

Found that list morpheus
Grab frame data by Amazing Amphoros
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234915

Also, Id be glad to help with overall KO =. Just let my finish up grab range and then Ill get back to you for the testing method.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon is near the bottom on many of these lists. Captain Falcon, is the opposite.

 

[mariofanpm12]

i could help with who has the strongest attacks (most damage dealing) by averaging the maximum damage output dealt by all of their moves, excluding specials?

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm very interested in seeing the grab range data. I know that King D3, Marth and Charizard have great non-tether grabs, and obviously all the tether grabs would be near the top, but I don't know about anyone else.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

i could help with who has the strongest attacks (most damage dealing) by averaging the maximum damage output dealt by all of their moves, excluding specials?

You can work on that and bring here the info

I think you should include specials. And maybe Final Smashes, but his one separated (for everything-goes smashers).

 

[TP]

Someone should test height (with and without ducking), because I want Ganondorf to be great at something.

 

[Morrigan]

Air Dodge

3-29 / 39 Metaknight
4-29 / 39 Zero Suit Samus
4-29 / 39 Diddy
4-29 / 39 Pit
[...]
4-29 / 49 Falco
4-29 / 49 Yoshi
4-29 / 49 Ganondorf
4-29 / 49 Wolf
4-29 / 49 Toon Link
4-29 / 49 Captain Falcon
4-29 / 49 Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49 Marth
4-19 / 49 Peach

LOL.
Wasn't that supposed to be 4-29 / 49? Programmers screwed up BADLY. Why would they give a character such a ****ty airdodge.

 

[ndayday]

i could help with who has the strongest attacks (most damage dealing) by averaging the maximum damage output dealt by all of their moves, excluding specials?

I actually worked on that a loooong time ago, and never really did anything with it because it's basically useless data. I have quite a few characters done, and I've included specials etc. All the attacks are sweetspotted, meaning they dealt the most damage possible.

If you want the data for a few characters (the top row basically) then just drop me a PM. If I were you, I would send the PM, it's a pain to test that stuff. Especially for Marth's highest possible damage dealt with dancing blade. O_O

EDIT:

Someone should test height (with and without ducking), because I want Ganondorf to be great at something.

I'll do it! I'll edit the data back into this post, or if someone posts after this, then I'll post it then.

 

[Bellioes]

Well I finally got that grab range data up.
The Jigglypuff boards method didnt work for me cause it was too difficult to compare character grab ranges to make this list. So heres my method;
1. I created a custom stage with a horizontal platform made of blocks and then a wall on the left-hand side made of blocks. If you look closely at the horizontal blocks, you can see that along the top, there are little marks. I realized they were perfect for making measurements (It looks almost like a ruler )

2. I used Mario as a control. I would roll left against the wall so that he was fas ar left as possible. This was also to make sure that Mario always started at the same spot.

3. I then proceeded to measure the furthest distance a character could be before he could no longer reach Mario with a STANDING grab. I started measuring from the characters ARM except for characters like ROB who would skew the data cause of how far their arms are from their body. In those cases, I used the point on their body closest to Mario as the starting point of the measurement.

I know there are a couple things that could change this data such as taller characters grab range being shorter than they should but because of how small these changes would be, I realized they wouldnt change the order that much if any at all and didnt worry too much about these small discrepancies.
Here are the results;

Tether Grabs (Grabs disjointed from the character)
1.Olimars Blue Pikmin
2.Olimars White Pikmin
3.ZSS
Olimars Red Pikmin
5.Olimars Yellow Pikmin
6.Samus
7.Link
8. Olimars Purple Pikmin
8. Lucas
9. Toon Link
10. Yoshi
11. Ivysaur

Non-tether grabs
*Note: None of these characters grabs were longer than the tether-grabbers although DDD came very close to surpassing Ivysaur.

12. DDD
13.Charzard
14. Zelda
15. Donkey Kong
16. Squirtle
17. Marth
Diddy
Snake
20. Kirby
ROB
22. Peach
Fox
Falco
Ness
26. Wario
27.Bowser
Pit
MK
Jigglypuff
Ike
Sonic
33. Pika
Sheik
35. Lucario
36.Wolf
ICs
Mario
Luigi
G&W
41. Captain Falcon
42. Ganon lol Near the bottom once again

Morpehus, If you want, Ill add the numbers I got. I just didnt think it was necesary but its really up to you.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You should make a average result of all the lists combined. I'm positive that Ganon would take last.

Yet, more reasons as to why he's the worst character in brawl.

 

[ndayday]

That's just for standing grabs, right?

and lol at Ganon, poor guy.

 

[Bellioes]

Yeah just standing grabs.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Wow, great work Bellioes. I'm very surprised at Squirtle and Diddy Kong...

Would it be possible for you to do dash grabs and pivot grabs too? I realise you probably have better things to do at the moment, but if we can get the range for dahs and pivot grabs, we coudl combine them with the grab frame data and determine who has the best grabs overall.

 

[Bellioes]

I could but I really dont know how to go about testing it. Pivot grabs can be difficult to start at a specific spot so it would be difficult to see just how far the range is.
As for dash grabs, Naked showed me the method that allows you to test range but its only useful if you want to find that data for one character because theres no way of measuring the range for comparing with other characters.
Any suggestions?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Well I finally got that grab range data up.
The Jigglypuff boards method didnt work for me cause it was too difficult to compare character grab ranges to make this list. So heres my method;
1. I created a custom stage with a horizontal platform made of blocks and then a wall on the left-hand side made of blocks. If you look closely at the horizontal blocks, you can see that along the top, there are little marks. I realized they were perfect for making measurements (It looks almost like a ruler )

2. I used Mario as a control. I would roll left against the wall so that he was fas ar left as possible. This was also to make sure that Mario always started at the same spot.

3. I then proceeded to measure the furthest distance a character could be before he could no longer reach Mario with a STANDING grab. I started measuring from the characters ARM except for characters like ROB who would skew the data cause of how far their arms are from their body. In those cases, I used the point on their body closest to Mario as the starting point of the measurement.

I know there are a couple things that could change this data such as taller characters grab range being shorter than they should but because of how small these changes would be, I realized they wouldnt change the order that much if any at all and didnt worry too much about these small discrepancies.
Here are the results;

Tether Grabs (Grabs disjointed from the character)
1.Olimars Blue Pikmin
2.Olimars White Pikmin
3.ZSS
Olimars Red Pikmin
5.Olimars Yellow Pikmin
6.Samus
7.Link
8. Olimars Purple Pikmin
8. Lucas
9. Toon Link
10. Yoshi
11. Ivysaur

Non-tether grabs
*Note: None of these characters grabs were longer than the tether-grabbers although DDD came very close to surpassing Ivysaur.

12. DDD
13.Charzard
14. Zelda
15. Donkey Kong
16. Squirtle
17. Marth
Diddy
Snake
20. Kirby
ROB
22. Peach
Fox
Falco
Ness
26. Wario
27.Bowser
Pit
MK
Jigglypuff
Ike
Sonic
33. Pika
Sheik
35. Lucario
36.Wolf
ICs
Mario
Luigi
G&W
41. Captain Falcon
42. Ganon lol Near the bottom once again

Morpehus, If you want, Ill add the numbers I got. I just didnt think it was necesary but its really up to you.

Excellent work. Yes, I think the numbers are good to see how much is the gap between characters too. I when you have it ready, I will move to the first page along with your explanation

Mabye dash and pivot grabs are proportionals to standing grabs. If you could measure 2 by eye and very carefully we could find that out.

 

[Bellioes]

I know for sure that dash grabs arent porportional (look at MKs dash grab compared to his standing grab 0_o) but you could be right about Pivot Grab ranges. Ill look into that though I do not guarantie the accuracy because of how hard it is to control the pivot grab.
About the numbers, here they are. You can just add them in to the list;

Tether Grabs (Grabs disjointed from the character)
1.Olimars Blue Pikmin 10.1
2.Olimars White Pikmin 10.0
3.ZSS 9.75
Olimars Red Pikmin 9.75
5.Olimars Yellow Pikmin 9.6
6.Samus 9.2- 4 (I couldnt really tell so I took the range)
7.Link 8.25
8. Olimars Purple Pikmin 7.5
9. Lucas 7.25
10. Toon Link 7
11. Yoshi 6.75
12. Ivysaur 6.1

Non-tether grabs
*Note: None of these characters grabs were longer than the tether-grabbers although DDD came very close to surpassing Ivysaur.

13. DDD 6
14.Charzard 5.5
15. Zelda 5.3
16. Donkey Kong 5.1
17. Squirtle 5
18. Marth 4.75
Diddy 4.75
Snake 4.75
21. Kirby 4.5
ROB 4.5
23. Peach 4.25
Fox 4.25
Falco 4.25
Ness 4.25
27. Wario 4.1
28.Bowser 4
Pit 4
MK 4
Jigglypuff 4
Ike 4
Sonic 4
34. Pika 3.9
Sheik 3.9
36. Lucario 3.75
37.Wolf 3.5
ICs 3.5
Mario 3.5
Luigi 3.5
G&W 3.5
42. Captain Falcon 3.25
43. Ganon 2.75
Hold on, Ill edit in the characters.
Also, if you have any thing else youd like me test, Ill probably be able to do it before Wednesday this week.
And did you see the grab frame data thread I posted earlier by Amazing Ampharos?

 

[ndayday]

I can do the pivot/dash grabs if you want too. .___.

I'm almost done with the crouch data.

 

[Bellioes]

Yeah if you want too, Id rather test something else.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Overall KO power test method

Yes, and that is already in the first page. This info you have obtained is unique and useful to the smash community. I hope you feel proud because of it. :bigthumbu

I will put your new chart on the first page.

So, do you agree with me in the way we are going to test KO power?
I suggest KOing jiggly in her initial position on traning mode, using the smallest stage available. (The sooner we can take her KO , the test will be faster as we can increase the damage on the training options easier). We will just consider sweetspots. So precision will not be considered. We wont be considering hit boxes size neither. The sooner ( percentaje ) you can take her on that position, that's the percentage you are going to write down. When testing Usmash, Utilt and Uair we will have to make the CPU jump and hit her as low as we can (while sweetspoting) to kill her.

In the case of hits that cannot kill I should consider them as 400% to obtain our average. We should consider B moves and even final smahes but his last we set it apart, because is not useful to non-item competitive play.

Do you agree?

 

[ndayday]

I suggest KOing Jiggly in the middle of FD, and not include Final Smashes. Use the sweetspot of the move, and get the most accurate percentage you can for moves like jabs. If you can't KO her at 999% with a move, then just count it as 999%.

My two cents.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Using 999% will throw the average too far. Imagine a character with a lot of strong KO moves but 3 of them do not kill and you take 999%. Imagine there is another character with poor KO moves but no non-killing moves. The first will loose because of those 999% even when his KO power is better overall.
I think Final smashes should be included but not mixed on the overall average. Or at least have an average with and without final smash. For neutral combos and multiattack moves the complete combo count as the move. For example if jiggly is at 100% when she dies from Ike using his neutral combo on her, then that's it.
I think jiggly does not need to be in the middle of FD. That will just make the testing longer. He position will not change the proportions of KO power. You just have to hit her from the left side always. Using a smaller stage will make the test even faster. I respect your opinion though.