The chain is broken...

[Tristan_win]

Sorry for the ****ty topic recently everyone but this little piece of info is just sooo nice that I don't care if I get a warning point or whatever. In most cases something like this wouldn't require a whole thread to talk about.

Anyways as some of you might of know Meta knight has troubles getting around the chain since it can out range him this is especially true with the jump into chain(non jacked).

When Sheik does a jump into chain the chain does more knock back and hit stun with each hit so if you start using the jump into chain at say... 50% meta knight will not be able to break though from the front or even the air because you will be able to swat him out of the skies and more or less push him far enough away once more that he wont be able to get you.

This isn't what inspired me to make this thread, what did though was that after playing around with the chain a bit against a poor meta knight I noticed that the chain can also beat the shuttle loop before it hits sheik

You have to do a sort of chain lock motion off the side of the stage so he wont be able to hit you with the shuttle loop and yes it is true he can in fact fly over you but by doing so he is forcing himself to recover high which sheik can deal with.

Up till now if a meta knight tried to recover low there was nothing sheik could really do about it but maybe try to edge hog....which never worked against a good meta knight. However with this and the fact the chain also beats the side B, and down B in theory meta knight wont be able to recover low without taking a **** ton of damage.

lol, I'm making a lot of sheik pride threads. Oh and I call a meta knight counter.

 

[Zankoku]

Are you talking about something like the way Sheik could edgeguard space animals with Chain in Melee? I'll do some experimenting with this when I get the chance.

 

[Tristan_win]

Are you talking about something like the way Sheik could edgeguard space animals with Chain in Melee? I'll do some experimenting with this when I get the chance.

Yes,

10 sheik prides

edit: I saved a recording of it too, although I was playing a scrub and was playing with him (reason why I found it) I can give you it if you want.

edit2 god I'm hyped up: I also found out the fair can hit meta knight out of the shuttle loop as well..by pure luck in the match before.

 

[Zankoku]

Feel free, you know how it works, and I upload replays on request. I'll probably be busy until the weekend this week, though.

 

[demodemo]

:\ what about tornado?

and even if sheik can hit meta out of shuttle loop, shuttle loop is last second resort, metaknights will usually recover with their glide, or drill rush to the edge

Spoiler

10doubts

 

[Tristan_win]

:\ what about tornado?

and even if sheik can hit meta out of shuttle loop, shuttle loop is last second resort, metaknights will usually recover with their glide, or drill rush to the edge

Spoiler

10doubts

._. I thought that was common knowledge, Yes sheik chain can beat the tornado as well even after multiple B presses. I've tested this extensively you just got to know how to whip him same goes for the drill rush.

 

[Blistering Speed]

So now, MK HAS to recover from above!? THIS IS AWESOME. I need to start using jump into chain more against recoveries, who knows how it can mess up other characters if it can do this to MK.

 

[Blad01]

So now, MK HAS to recover from above!? THIS IS AWESOME. I need to start using jump into chain more against recoveries, who knows how it can mess up other characters if it can do this to MK.

That's not sure yet... Maybe MK can still use Drill Rush, or Down B to recover safely.

 

[Tristan_win]

That's not sure yet... Maybe MK can still use Drill Rush, or Down B to recover safely.

Unless he is going over sheik there is no way meta knight can hit sheik with his B attacks if the chain is used correctly. The chain beats the drill rush, hits him before he reappears with his down B and now can beat the up B from being above it.

Not to mention she also beats all of his ground and air attack before they can hit her.

 

[Blistering Speed]

You guys should talk to Tristan on AIM, he always puts me instantly in the mindset Shiek is god tier.


Seriously, Tristan called it first and Im seconding, MK counter, Shiek can't physically be touched by him if you use the chain right if I understand correctly. The same applies to Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Sonic and Wario (?).

BIG SCHTUFF, be hyped!

 

[RedPeppers]

This is awesome!!!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Man do I wish I knew this a few days earlier.

Regardless, this is definitely great news. I will gladly third the notion that Sheik is an MK counter.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik is a Meta Knight counter because she can force him to have to recover high in the situation that she actually gets him offstage?

Funny.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

cool discovery and it does have alot of potential, but i wouldn't go so far as to automatically say it makes her a MK counter...
would like to see a vid

 

[Blistering Speed]

Sheik is a Meta Knight counter because she can force him to have to recover high in the situation that she actually gets him offstage?

Funny.

No, Shiek is now a MK counter because MK CANNOT touch Shiek in anyway from the front or above while the chain is out. This means MK has to go over and in the time that takes, Shiek can withdraw the chain and run to the other side. And the process loops.

This applies anywhere and works especially well under a platform.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I will gladly take a Meta Knight recovering high than safe recovery options involving the ledge.

His gliding attacks can be baited with Vanish the same way as G&W's key. If he simply cancels his glide into normal aerials, particularly Dair, wait and punish accordingly.

Considering his options may become limited, the matchup definitely gets a little easier.

 

[Zankoku]

lol, this is funny. But we'll go with that, and be like the Yoshi players who claim to counter MK because of the grab release chain into usmash.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Yes, because that's a perfectly usable analogy here...

From what I understand, MK cannot touch us now unless he goes round the back, which he has to go over us to do, in which time we can run away and repeat.

This isn't the same as an otherwise average character who can't get a grab in anyway having a chaingrab to U Smash.

 

[demodemo]

uh...there are many characters that must recover above sheik, eg falco if falco does firebird underneath the edge (any angle where he has to aim up) sheik can gimp him way too easily, so he relies on the illusion and his second jump

also, recovering from above isn't even that bad. lets say you are on battlefield.

chain is out, metaknight is gliding (not shuttle loop) over you

metaknight glides over you, glides attack onto the ground with no lag, right behind sheik

sheik pulls back the-gets downsmashed

??

edit- i see what you are saying blistering speed, but metaknight can end his glide before sheik can retract the chain

then it is back to ground zero, and metaknight < sheik

 

[-Mars-]

Ya MK can't touch you if you ever have the proper spacing to actually initiate the chain. If a MK understood what you were doing with the chain, he would be relentless.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

if he gets behind you couldn't you roll away from him instead of behind him? The only time that shouldn't work is if you are near an edge.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Ya MK can't touch you if you ever have the proper spacing to actually initiate the chain. If a MK understood what you were doing with the chain, he would be relentless.

Meh the whole relentless phrase is thrown around too much at the moment. Shiek has good options for getting away characters. I definately agree it's a flaw in the method but MK's 'ruthlessness' is overrated. D Smash, N Air OOS, general running away to SH Chain, Shiek can get enough time to get SH chain off.

 

[-Mars-]

I agree you can chain camp MK. I need to see evidence that it is unbeatable by MK though. I'm certain he could do something to get inside.

Even if he can't, you have almost no margin for error in your pattern with the chain. No player could stay perfect for a whole match.

I'm also wondering what would happen if you pull out the chain and MK just stood away from you in a tournament match. Who would be accused of stalling?

 

[Zankoku]

Whoever is at higher % is screwed because it's not stalling, it's just camping.

By the way, the difference between Meta Knight and Sonic in this situation is that Meta Knight has ranged attacks and can actually mix up whether he's going to attack you aerially or from the ground. If you don't react properly with the chain he can easily knock you out of it with a well-spaced dair.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Keeping a perfect chain pattern is feasible (and not a theoryfighter possibility like Wolf shining every attack) in a real match, so we can therefore apply it to matchups, am I right?

 

[Zankoku]

That remains to be proven, which is why I'm going to experiment sometime this week.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Fair enough, I await the results with bated breath.

Anyone who doesn't follow suit is silly.

 

[-Mars-]

Oh this certainly does interest me, I just think the window for it is very small and eventually your opponent will be able to get through.

 

[Villi]

Couldn't MK just down b into you?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

If MK comes from behind then I definitely think so, unless it was anticipated. Otherwise, it shouldn't

 

[demodemo]

i still think metaknight can glide over sheik and punish. if sheik sees the glide coming, retracts, then metaknight can just glide attack. if not, metaknight will be behind sheik, where the cahins range is lower, and i believe dsmash will hit sheik

edit- but what do i know right? i'll let you guys test, and i finish my psyche

 

[JackieRabbit5]

ya i dunno, u have to have good spacing and there is some bad startup/ending lag. and i'm thinking he could get thru the chain more often than not

 

[Tristan_win]

Doing this against meta knight isn't hard or impossible

Now doing it against someone like ~shrugs~ Marth would be like impossible like I'm pretty sure you can hit him before he can hit you with his fsmash but you pretty much hit him as his fsmash is already started...Not to mention his counter ruins anything you try to do on him as well even though it has a four frame starting window.

Technically speak you could use the chain to stop Marth as well but you would have to be a god or something.

Anyways what I do most of the time with the chain when I'm fighting meta knights is constantly keep in in a chain lock motion until he either gets air born, roll behinds me, or goes for a fsmash,ftilt

for the ftilt you need to expend the chain to it's full size which requires you to make it go back behind sheik then forward again to gain enough momentum.

The hardest thing to defend against is meta knight fast fail dair which is why you need like 50% before you can stop it. The reason for it is because if you don't get a tipper (which I like never do on the first hit) then he can just plow on though but once his damage is around 50% you can hit him twice before he can get his dair out which mean you have push him out of range because of the increases knock back of the chain.

The neutral B you just do a simple spin motion with the chain and go from there

side b is one of the hardest to fight you have to expand the chain forward and move the stick rapidly from either east to south or west to south. If it's in the air you just got to shoot the chain out in time which isn't as hard as you may think.

Down b is easy just swing the chain behind you, you don't need to time anything just swing.

The glide attack is also hard to do but once you learn the range of the chain it's easy to overcome.

Oh and if meta knight or anyone does get behind you it's not over you can still defend yourself just if you miss your screwed ^^

edit: the chain has just as much range in the front as in the back.

 

[Rawr_]

From what I've seen, a chain near the edge can keep certain characters from coming back at all, it goes higher than they can recover from the ledge. Then again, my friend was using falcon, and we all know how versatile his recovery options are o.O;

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I didn't know if this was common knowledge, but the chain RUINS Diddy's recovery options. I play against Matt Turner who most compare to GDX, but when he tried to sweetspot the ledge with either sideB or the rocketbarrels, he couldn't at all, took massive damage, panicked, and died.

You can simply chain camp on the ledge and have results feasible to what the chain does to Sonic. Almost certain that it works all the time but can someone test it?

 

[Tristan_win]

I didn't know if this was common knowledge, but the chain RUINS Diddy's recovery options. I play against Matt Turner who most compare to GDX, but when he tried to sweetspot the ledge with either sideB or the rocketbarrels, he couldn't at all, took massive damage, panicked, and died.

You can simply chain camp on the ledge and have results feasible to what the chain does to Sonic. Almost certain that it works all the time but can someone test it?

Yeah, I know, it also works well on ZSS but I have yet to get it to constantly work.

Does anyone know if the tether recovery gains invincibility or something when they are getting pulled to the ledge?

I have similar problems with Diddy which is why I personally prefer a strong bair over the chain for recovery Diddy's from below the ledge.

 

[-Mars-]

Yeah, I know, it also works well on ZSS but I have yet to get it to constantly work.

Does anyone know if the tether recovery gains invincibility or something when they are getting pulled to the ledge?

I have similar problems with Diddy which is why I personally prefer a strong bair over the chain for recovery Diddy's from below the ledge.

No, not until you reach the ledge. That's the reason why Sheik can be hit out of the tether even when you are pulling yourself up. I don't know all the technicalities of the matter, but you definitely aren't safe when you are pulling yourself back up.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

When I say chain camp, I mean hanging the chain over the ledge and interrupting all of his recovery options. I find it absolutely hilarious!

I suppose the way I worded it made it confusing lol

 

[Dan_X]

hmm, I never use the chain. I thought it sucked. I guess I was wrong, i gotta experiment with it now.

 

[Tristan_win]

No, not until you reach the ledge. That's the reason why Sheik can be hit out of the tether even when you are pulling yourself up. I don't know all the technicalities of the matter, but you definitely aren't safe when you are pulling yourself back up.

That's exactly what I thought but even if Zss or anyone for that matter ore hanging off of the ledge with their tether and you start to wiggle the chain of the side of the stage I've seen them still managing to recover. If it was constantly hitting them then I would of already made a thread long ago about how Sheik countering everyone with a tether recovery since all she would have to do would be interrupt there pull back to the ledge three times before watching them fall to their doom.

Unless the pulling back to stage animation is like one frame I can't see how this could happen so often without invincibility frames or something.