JuxtaposeX
Smash Lord
If Weegee gets in, you're ganna get *****. No lube.
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I said at least 55-45. Do not overrate or underestimate either character in this MU. 40-60 Luigi of course, 45-55 Luigi is the minimum. It's to my understanding that Falcon is very bad, but don't treat any character like they cannot win. It's a personal bias by opinion. It's seen too often.but imo 55-45 luigi is not true. Falcon doesnt have it THAT good
You'd have to PS to shieldgrab, otherwise you'll get knocked out of grab range, and you'll most likely take Luigi's Jab. Other than that, yes, it can be shielded with proper prediction.-Luigi can always break Falcon's Jab cancel with a Nair, but this Nair can be shieldgrabbed if Falcon does Jab>Jab>shield. So it's a guessing game
Flub knee is just an option, it's not a good one. If they're farther away, i recommend using the back hit of Uair, it has better gimping capabilities than Bair, mainly because it can send them at an angle if they DI incorrectly. But yes, attempting to edgeguard Cyclone is risky, but it's very effective, especially if he's used his second jump prior to the Cyclone, which isn't really seen by people like Boss or Biglou. Luigi is better off conserving his second jump and using Cyclone > SJP to recover. That way, if he gets hit out of Cyclone, he still has a chance of survival.- trying to gimp cyclone with a flub knee will most of the time end with Falcon getting gimped by a hit of cyclone, and it is very painful to see
It would really have to depend on what the Falcon is attempting, and also, it'd need major reaction time, and knowledge of what you're being hit by.-also trying to Ftilt a ledgejumping Falcon will result in you getting YES'd
You're welcome. Just trying to help understanding of the MU in any way possible.Other than that this is a pretty good wall of information, thanks dude.
Nope.You'd have to PS to shieldgrab, otherwise you'll get knocked out of grab range, and you'll most likely take Luigi's Jab. Other than that, yes, it can be shielded with proper prediction.
What.If Luigi runs to the ledge, you expect to get Bair'd and take a stage spike, so you press shield in an attempt to tech. Luigi could just cancel the run with a shield, and aim an Ftilt down to hit you. It does 0 knockback, and you plummet to your doom for performing an airdodge
If the Luigi is SDIng towards Falcon, then it can be shieldgrabbed. If he SDIs away, he doesn't even have to Nair to avoid shieldgrab. If the Falcon Jab > Shield Dash > Grab, i don't think it's escapable.Nope.
I dunno, it may be hard to perform at first but for doing it countless times I can assure you, no need to PS the Nair to get a shieldgrab.
I mean, it's not like Luigi can space his Nair or retreat it, this move has no range and a very long duration.
You're not reading me correctly. That was an extreme instance. I'm not assuming anything. Like i said in my last post, Ftilt aimed down is highly situational on edgeguard. With that said, he clearly has much better options than being near the ledge.What.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean but this looks like bad theorycrafting. Like you assume your opponent only plays on anticipation.
Read the above. Luigi should only be near the ledge on an extreme instance. He can take too much, even on a shielded Uair, from Falcon. He wouldn't be able to punish Falcon's choice of getup if he was anywhere near the ledge, let along in range to take Falcon Dive or Uair.Anyway Luigi doesn't have too many moves that can beat a ledgedropped Falcon Dive/Uair (actually I can't remember any), his best strategy when Falcon is on the ledge is to stay away, spam fireballz and punish the reaction with Bair.
Now you're just throwing random facts that don't even make sense.If the Luigi is SDIng towards Falcon, then it can be shieldgrabbed. If he SDIs away, he doesn't even have to Nair to avoid shieldgrab. If the Falcon Jab > Shield Dash > Grab, i don't think it's escapable.
What do you mean he can't retreat? The move potentially Auto-Cancels. If we fast fall it and you miss the shieldgrab (which has a high likelyhood of occuring), you're going to get jabbed. It's assured. You're better off using Shield Dash to get in grab range. By the time Luigi gets out of stun, you should be able to Poweshield the Nair. If he doesn't Nair, you can still grab him. Nair has a very long duration in the air. Considerably easy to punish if it doesn't hit. It does just the right amount of knockback and shield stun, so by the time you're attempting to grab, it's pretty much a worthless effort if they put you out of range.
I'm not even going to argue with this. It's decisive by perspective.Now you're just throwing random facts that don't even make sense.
Shieldgrabbing someone who hasn't hit your shield ? Not with Falcon.
Jab > dash shield ? Seriously ? I can tell you've never seen that in practice because if you had you would realize how impossible it is.
Then stop attempting to discuss it by opposing my instances and say what you mean. You don't have to take an irrelevant paragraph and turn it into an exaggeration of fact. Keep things simple. You look to make things long and confusing.Luigi's Nair counters Falcon's Jab cancel.
Falcon's shielding (then grabbing) counters this.
End of what I was trying to explain.
You don't get what i'm saying, i've played both sides of this MU, i think i know what i'm talking about. Easily enough i can say that Falcon cannot punish Nair directly with a shieldgrab, even out of Jab. You're overrating Falcon's grab range by an inch, and that brings this to conclusion. If Falcon was able to punish Luigi with an inescapable Jab > Shieldgrab, that would make for a huge obstacle in Luigi's matters. I was probably a bit exaggerant on the Shield Dash, but even still, it's escapable via SDI.Now of course Luigi can counter Falcon's shielding by not Nair-ing, thus making shieldgrab unsafe and resetting the momentum, but then Falcon can counter this counter counter by doing the jab cancel that wouldn't have been possible if Luigi had Nair'd.
But that's just the beginning of a theory loop that won't end before everyone gets a headache, so I stay with them facts.
He could possibly jump, but if he gets grabbed near the ledge, and he's caught out of his second jump, that's not very good. I believe Nair is Luigi's fastest aerial (Frame wise), and has the longest duration. This is why it's popularly used to break combos and CGs. If you try to roll, Falcon can grab you from your shield the split second you touch the ground and take soft landing lag.how is jab > shieldgrab inescapable
its only inescapable if the luigi nairs, lol
luigi can jump away, roll away, etc
The players can get smarter or weaker, but the MU remains the same. It can drastically affect the match and it's outcome, but nothing changes but knowledge of the MU for the contestants. Again, this MU doesn't go farther than 60-40 Luigi. It can feel a lot easier when you know more than your opponent.What the hell happened in here?
35-65 still sounds like the most accurate ratio BUT as I've been playing more - Luigi is getting a lot easier to beat. Maybe at a HIGHER level, the MU gets easier? Thoughts pl0x.
45-55 is rediculous in this matchup. 60-40 is the minimum.I said at least 55-45. Do not overrate or underestimate either character in this MU. 40-60 Luigi of course, 45-55 Luigi is the minimum. It's to my understanding that Falcon is very bad, but don't treat any character like they cannot win. It's a personal bias by opinion. It's seen too often.
Seconding.45-55 is rediculous in this matchup. 60-40 is the minimum.
Yes.60-40 for Luigi
Yes.45-55 is rediculous in this matchup. 60-40 is the minimum.
Yes.Seconding.
Knee, for confirmation, it shouldn't be worse than 60-40. Otherwise, you have no good experience in this MU.
Response to above quote.We shouldn't worry that much about the ratio. We are here to discuss our opinions on the matchup. Luigi has the advantage in the matchup, however, his aerial speed is bad so we can keep him away. Luigi gets inside is bad for us. Keep Luigi outside and we win the match.
Yes. Nice short summary.40:60 is definitely the best we have for this match-up. I would actually say it's worse than that considering Luigi has the ability to demolish Falcon. Low percents, he has utilt to rack up damage. He can do the sliding jab into up+B if he predicts us well enough. Then his aerial control is much better than ours. Quick, spammable kill potential. lol.
Overall, he's a beast against Falcon.
I think it's 60:40.Knee, for confirmation, it shouldn't be worse than 60-40. Otherwise, you have no good experience in this MU.
It's potentially block-able by Falcon at just about any instance if you're playing appropriately.He can do the sliding jab into up+B if he predicts us well enough.
This is definitely true. Luigi's aerial game is extreme if he gets the chance to land an Nair or Dair, but i think Falcon has a slight chance at winning this MU. He has the tools to keep Luigi grounded, and i think Luigi has a slight advantage on the ground. It's a fight back and forth in the air, as Luigi and Falcon should avoid being over one another.Overall, he's a beast against Falcon.
The 45-55 was in correlation with opinion, my apologies. The overall ratio is 60-40.I think it's 60:40.
I was just putting emphasis on it in contrast to the 55-45
It's all good.The 45-55 was in correlation with opinion, my apologies. The overall ratio is 60-40.
This is true. To add, whenever Luigi starts throwing out Fireballs, i find SH-Airdodge very useful. You can powershield afterwards if he decides to shoot another directly after the first.Luigi slides a lot, so the main thing I'd say for Falcon to do is watch when Luigi is grounded, and try to predict his approach options. Watch out for grounded tornadoes too, even though it's easy to punish, it can help Luigi zone in quickly. A lot of players tend to fall for it and Falcon, having a lot of lagtime (start up time, mainly) on many of his attacks, can have a rough time getting around it. Be ready to spam something that comes out on an early frame like jabs, utilt or a shield grab. If you think you can time a downsmash, go for it. I always have my back turned toward opponents since Falcon's SH Bair is boss status against limiting approaches. Don't be afraid to keep your distance from Luigi. His approach options aren't the best in the game. Just watch out if he starts spamming fireballs and try to short hop around or over them.
I would simply jump over them. i don't like airdodges in general, esspecially falcons.This is true. To add, whenever Luigi starts throwing out Fireballs, i find SH-Airdodge very useful. You can powershield afterwards if he decides to shoot another directly after the first.
I think Falcon's Ftilt is fairly usable in this MU as a GTFO move, since it just the right amount of push on Luigi tp force him offstage, shield or not, at low%.
punishing them out of a powersheild is only really gonna be viable when you're close enough.Why bother so much for fireballs when you can just PS them and attack directly out of PS ? Trying to avoid them will only make you less likely to punish Luigi.