JuxtaposeX
Smash Lord
If Weegee gets in, you're ganna get *****. No lube.
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The Captain Falcon Match-Up General Discussion ~ Week 21 (?)
- Thread starter lordhelmet
- Start date
yoshq
Smash Master
in this matchup your best move is utilt, followed closely by dsmash and uair. the jab is also significantly less useful against luigi than other chars.
Well sure, Luigi has a better jab and a better close range game with a scary fast Utilt that hits everywhere and of course the Shoryuken.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
This MU isn't too far into Luigi's favor. CF's Jab cancel can be interrupted by Nair if Luigi SDIs the hit(s) up. It might also work without SDI. CF can keep Luigi from getting in, mainly because of his poor Air Speed and Traction. Those are the big factors that make the MU winnable for Falcon. If CF gets grabbed, expect an offstage throw, or Dthrow if Luigi chooses to follow up with a chase. Luigi's recovery is easily interrupted. Green Missile speaks for itself, unless it misfires, and Cyclone can be gimped by a flub knee, or the back of Uair, to knock him away. If you get coined by SJP midair, You're probably in a bad position if it steals you second jump. For the reason, i recommend saving the jump and using Falcon Dive immediately to recover, conserving your second jump, and edgehogging if necessary. This works better with tap jump off. Falcon Kick can be punished, hard, same to Raptor Boost, but Falcon Kick's priority goes through Cyclone, so it has uses at certain instances. If you get jabbed, mash away from Luigi, or expect a follow up, like Grab. I've read that Falcon can always block Luigi's Jab > FJP, so it shouldn't worry you that much. Try to space majorly with Utilt and Uair, and Ftilt Luigi's shield to get him offstage. Dsmash is the best smash to use in this MU, but don't get predictable. I don't think Luigi can punish strong attacks on shield if it isn't powershield. He could use Cyclone, but it puts him in a bad position if it gets shielded.
Luigi should also refrain from jumping. Falcon can use SH-Uair, and i think FH-Nair can hit to punish any landing lag Luigi has. Luigi's best smash in here is Dsmash, closely followed by Usmash. Utilt can get Falcon in a bad position. Ftilt aimed down > Edgehog can get edge-jump-happy Falcons in the perfect place to be punished, and it can easily gimp if they aren't careful, due to it's superb function on ledge-hopping opponents. Bair, Dair, and Nair are really helpful. Air chases on Falcon can prove to be highly effective in this MU.
My ratio: 60-40 Luigi, at most. 55-45 Luigi at least.
Luigi should also refrain from jumping. Falcon can use SH-Uair, and i think FH-Nair can hit to punish any landing lag Luigi has. Luigi's best smash in here is Dsmash, closely followed by Usmash. Utilt can get Falcon in a bad position. Ftilt aimed down > Edgehog can get edge-jump-happy Falcons in the perfect place to be punished, and it can easily gimp if they aren't careful, due to it's superb function on ledge-hopping opponents. Bair, Dair, and Nair are really helpful. Air chases on Falcon can prove to be highly effective in this MU.
My ratio: 60-40 Luigi, at most. 55-45 Luigi at least.
2-3 things to correct Zatch's post :
-Luigi can always break Falcon's Jab cancel with a Nair, but this Nair can be shieldgrabbed if Falcon does Jab>Jab>shield. So it's a guessing game,
- trying to gimp cyclone with a flub knee will most of the time end with Falcon getting gimped by a hit of cyclone, and it is very painful to see,
-also trying to Ftilt a ledgejumping Falcon will result in you getting YES'd
Other than that this is a pretty good wall of information, thanks dude.
-Luigi can always break Falcon's Jab cancel with a Nair, but this Nair can be shieldgrabbed if Falcon does Jab>Jab>shield. So it's a guessing game,
- trying to gimp cyclone with a flub knee will most of the time end with Falcon getting gimped by a hit of cyclone, and it is very painful to see,
-also trying to Ftilt a ledgejumping Falcon will result in you getting YES'd
Other than that this is a pretty good wall of information, thanks dude.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
I said at least 55-45. Do not overrate or underestimate either character in this MU. 40-60 Luigi of course, 45-55 Luigi is the minimum. It's to my understanding that Falcon is very bad, but don't treat any character like they cannot win. It's a personal bias by opinion. It's seen too often.
You'd have to PS to shieldgrab, otherwise you'll get knocked out of grab range, and you'll most likely take Luigi's Jab. Other than that, yes, it can be shielded with proper prediction.
Flub knee is just an option, it's not a good one. If they're farther away, i recommend using the back hit of Uair, it has better gimping capabilities than Bair, mainly because it can send them at an angle if they DI incorrectly. But yes, attempting to edgeguard Cyclone is risky, but it's very effective, especially if he's used his second jump prior to the Cyclone, which isn't really seen by people like Boss or Biglou. Luigi is better off conserving his second jump and using Cyclone > SJP to recover. That way, if he gets hit out of Cyclone, he still has a chance of survival.
It would really have to depend on what the Falcon is attempting, and also, it'd need major reaction time, and knowledge of what you're being hit by.
For instances:
If Luigi runs to the ledge, you expect to get Bair'd and take a stage spike, so you press shield in an attempt to tech. Luigi could just cancel the run with a shield, and aim an Ftilt down to hit you. It does 0 knockback, and you plummet to your doom for performing an airdodge.
If you understand what Luigi is going to do, and you Falcon Dive him after the Ftilt, he'll take the hit. But remember, if you get baited, and he's able to dodge your Up+B, you're in an awful position. Nonetheless, Ftilt aimed down is a highly situational gimping technique, and it isn't used as often as things like Dtilt, so i guess your point stands.
You're welcome. Just trying to help understanding of the MU in any way possible.
Nope.
I dunno, it may be hard to perform at first but for doing it countless times I can assure you, no need to PS the Nair to get a shieldgrab.
I mean, it's not like Luigi can space his Nair or retreat it, this move has no range and a very long duration.
What.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean but this looks like bad theorycrafting. Like you assume your opponent only plays on anticipation.
Anyway Luigi doesn't have too many moves that can beat a ledgedropped Falcon Dive/Uair (actually I can't remember any), his best strategy when Falcon is on the ledge is to stay away, spam fireballz and punish the reaction with Bair.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
If the Luigi is SDIng towards Falcon, then it can be shieldgrabbed. If he SDIs away, he doesn't even have to Nair to avoid shieldgrab. If the Falcon Jab > Shield Dash > Grab, i don't think it's escapable.
What do you mean he can't retreat? The move potentially Auto-Cancels. If we fast fall it and you miss the shieldgrab (which has a high likelyhood of occuring), you're going to get jabbed. It's assured. You're better off using Shield Dash to get in grab range. By the time Luigi gets out of stun, you should be able to Poweshield the Nair. If he doesn't Nair, you can still grab him. Nair has a very long duration in the air. Considerably easy to punish if it doesn't hit. It does just the right amount of knockback and shield stun, so by the time you're attempting to grab, it's pretty much a worthless effort if they put you out of range.
You're not reading me correctly. That was an extreme instance. I'm not assuming anything. Like i said in my last post, Ftilt aimed down is highly situational on edgeguard. With that said, he clearly has much better options than being near the ledge.
Read the above. Luigi should only be near the ledge on an extreme instance. He can take too much, even on a shielded Uair, from Falcon. He wouldn't be able to punish Falcon's choice of getup if he was anywhere near the ledge, let along in range to take Falcon Dive or Uair.
Now you're just throwing random facts that don't even make sense.
Shieldgrabbing someone who hasn't hit your shield ? Not with Falcon.
Jab > dash shield ? Seriously ? I can tell you've never seen that in practice because if you had you would realize how impossible it is.
Luigi's Nair autocancels ? Yes but you still have to stay half a second in the air before you can even think of it.
And about shieldpush and shieldstun you're just forgetting that you can buffer actions out of shieldstun.
So let's keep things simple :
Luigi's Nair counters Falcon's Jab cancel.
Falcon's shielding (then grabbing) counters this.
End of what I was trying to explain.
Now of course Luigi can counter Falcon's shielding by not Nair-ing, thus making shieldgrab unsafe and resetting the momentum, but then Falcon can counter this counter counter by doing the jab cancel that wouldn't have been possible if Luigi had Nair'd.
But that's just the beginning of a theory loop that won't end before everyone gets a headache, so I stay with them facts.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
I'm not even going to argue with this. It's decisive by perspective.
Then stop attempting to discuss it by opposing my instances and say what you mean. You don't have to take an irrelevant paragraph and turn it into an exaggeration of fact. Keep things simple. You look to make things long and confusing.
You don't get what i'm saying, i've played both sides of this MU, i think i know what i'm talking about. Easily enough i can say that Falcon cannot punish Nair directly with a shieldgrab, even out of Jab. You're overrating Falcon's grab range by an inch, and that brings this to conclusion. If Falcon was able to punish Luigi with an inescapable Jab > Shieldgrab, that would make for a huge obstacle in Luigi's matters. I was probably a bit exaggerant on the Shield Dash, but even still, it's escapable via SDI.
Yeah right I'm the one that makes things long and confusing.
BTW you're still making things up, like implying that I said Jab>shieldgrab was inescapable.
BTW you're still making things up, like implying that I said Jab>shieldgrab was inescapable.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
That's what I came back to say. I meant walk in with a shield, then shieldgrab with your gain in distance.
Sorry guys, I really messed up on Falcon's initial dash anamation. That thing would take too long for us to grab, let alone avoid Nair in general, lol.
I wasn't implying anything, Telo, but if Jab > Shieldgrab bears the effectiveness that you say, it would indeed be inescapable by Luigi. Read what you're saying. We were both wrong.
Sorry guys, I really messed up on Falcon's initial dash anamation. That thing would take too long for us to grab, let alone avoid Nair in general, lol.
I wasn't implying anything, Telo, but if Jab > Shieldgrab bears the effectiveness that you say, it would indeed be inescapable by Luigi. Read what you're saying. We were both wrong.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
What the hell happened in here?
35-65 still sounds like the most accurate ratio BUT as I've been playing more - Luigi is getting a lot easier to beat. Maybe at a HIGHER level, the MU gets easier? Thoughts pl0x.
35-65 still sounds like the most accurate ratio BUT as I've been playing more - Luigi is getting a lot easier to beat. Maybe at a HIGHER level, the MU gets easier? Thoughts pl0x.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
He could possibly jump, but if he gets grabbed near the ledge, and he's caught out of his second jump, that's not very good. I believe Nair is Luigi's fastest aerial (Frame wise), and has the longest duration. This is why it's popularly used to break combos and CGs. If you try to roll, Falcon can grab you from your shield the split second you touch the ground and take soft landing lag.
The players can get smarter or weaker, but the MU remains the same. It can drastically affect the match and it's outcome, but nothing changes but knowledge of the MU for the contestants. Again, this MU doesn't go farther than 60-40 Luigi. It can feel a lot easier when you know more than your opponent.
Nonetheless, he still has the same advantages and disadvantages, so the MU ratio receives no variation.
Nair is frame 3.
So you can't shield it on reaction, you have to anticipate it.
Now if you anticipate wrong and that Luigi doesn't Nair you've lost your momentum.
And there are plenty of ways for Luigi to avoid the use of Nair.
So you can't shield it on reaction, you have to anticipate it.
Now if you anticipate wrong and that Luigi doesn't Nair you've lost your momentum.
And there are plenty of ways for Luigi to avoid the use of Nair.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
from wat i've read
and from what i know of falcon
60-40 sounds about right
but honestly, its the content behind the ratio that matters more, and what we have seems insightful enough.
and from what i know of falcon
60-40 sounds about right
but honestly, its the content behind the ratio that matters more, and what we have seems insightful enough.
Lionman
Smash Champion
60-40 for Luigi
45-55 is rediculous in this matchup. 60-40 is the minimum.
mlorenzo
Smash Journeyman
We shouldn't worry that much about the ratio. We are here to discuss our opinions on the matchup. Luigi has the advantage in the matchup, however, his aerial speed is bad so we can keep him away. Luigi gets inside is bad for us. Keep Luigi outside and we win the match.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Seconding.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
40:60 is definitely the best we have for this match-up. I would actually say it's worse than that considering Luigi has the ability to demolish Falcon. Low percents, he has utilt to rack up damage. He can do the sliding jab into up+B if he predicts us well enough. Then his aerial control is much better than ours. Quick, spammable kill potential. lol.
Overall, he's a beast against Falcon.
Overall, he's a beast against Falcon.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Response to above quote.
Yes. Nice short summary.
There we go.
Next?
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
It's potentially block-able by Falcon at just about any instance if you're playing appropriately.
For more information: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199907bo
Falcon is able to block an Up+B finish by Jab at all three hitbox variations, requiring no SDI to become unblock-able. Luigi needs to time an Up+B with either Dtilt tripping or setup by Luigi. If the opponent is predictable, it isn't hard to land.
This is definitely true. Luigi's aerial game is extreme if he gets the chance to land an Nair or Dair, but i think Falcon has a slight chance at winning this MU. He has the tools to keep Luigi grounded, and i think Luigi has a slight advantage on the ground. It's a fight back and forth in the air, as Luigi and Falcon should avoid being over one another.
The 45-55 was in correlation with opinion, my apologies. The overall ratio is 60-40.
It's all good.
Also, then we agree =)
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Yeah, that's why I said if he predicts us properly. I haven't looked into the many other characters vs. Luigi's jab -> up+B, but I know that Falcon can prevent most of it by pulling up a shield.
Luigi slides a lot, so the main thing I'd say for Falcon to do is watch when Luigi is grounded, and try to predict his approach options. Watch out for grounded tornadoes too, even though it's easy to punish, it can help Luigi zone in quickly. A lot of players tend to fall for it and Falcon, having a lot of lagtime (start up time, mainly) on many of his attacks, can have a rough time getting around it. Be ready to spam something that comes out on an early frame like jabs, utilt or a shield grab. If you think you can time a downsmash, go for it. I always have my back turned toward opponents since Falcon's SH Bair is boss status against limiting approaches. Don't be afraid to keep your distance from Luigi. His approach options aren't the best in the game. Just watch out if he starts spamming fireballs and try to short hop around or over them.
Also, nice thread on Luigi's jab frame data. Thanks for posting that.
Luigi slides a lot, so the main thing I'd say for Falcon to do is watch when Luigi is grounded, and try to predict his approach options. Watch out for grounded tornadoes too, even though it's easy to punish, it can help Luigi zone in quickly. A lot of players tend to fall for it and Falcon, having a lot of lagtime (start up time, mainly) on many of his attacks, can have a rough time getting around it. Be ready to spam something that comes out on an early frame like jabs, utilt or a shield grab. If you think you can time a downsmash, go for it. I always have my back turned toward opponents since Falcon's SH Bair is boss status against limiting approaches. Don't be afraid to keep your distance from Luigi. His approach options aren't the best in the game. Just watch out if he starts spamming fireballs and try to short hop around or over them.
Also, nice thread on Luigi's jab frame data. Thanks for posting that.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
This is true. To add, whenever Luigi starts throwing out Fireballs, i find SH-Airdodge very useful. You can powershield afterwards if he decides to shoot another directly after the first.
I think Falcon's Ftilt is fairly usable in this MU as a GTFO move, since it just the right amount of push on Luigi tp force him offstage, shield or not, at low%.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Surprisingly, I have to agree. Falcon's Ftilt isn't all that bad in this match-up. It's pretty decent if Luigi is trying to approach in the air too, but most people prefer to spam his Utilt for some reason. Also, short hopping over fireballs and Bairing is just as useful if you're close enough. But I don't see why Luigi would be using them if you're that close.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
I would simply jump over them. i don't like airdodges in general, esspecially falcons.
Yeah F-Tilt is good. To me it seems that luigis SH air game is ussually him busting out either on the peak of the SH or the fall. F-Tilt is awesome because it hits when its pointed as high as it can go.
Yeah darky the only reason u-tilt is used more is because of its range and priority. i think its simply impulse whenever falcon is in a positing where he needs both and needs to play defensive.
Why bother so much for fireballs when you can just PS them and attack directly out of PS ? Trying to avoid them will only make you less likely to punish Luigi.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
punishing them out of a powersheild is only really gonna be viable when you're close enough.
i think we'd be more likley to be faced with fireballs when we are farther away. jumping etc will give you mobility to go towards luigi.
but at close enough range, yeah i don't see a problem with it. esspecially if you want to stay grounded at the time anyways
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Unless you're cool enough to PSC into an immediate dash attack, you'd be better off avoiding them. Even if you could do the dash attack at a distance, he'll be able to shield it. lol
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
i just don't think a smart luigi is gonna fireball at close range. falcon has to be dangerously close enough for him to land an attack anyways, i think weegee is gonna have better options than fireballing when falcon is breathing down his neck.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Utilt, up or forward smash, Nair. Actually, almost all of his options can keep Falcon limited. Also, I kind of hate Luigi's shield grab. Even though he slides after being hit, I find myself getting shield grabbed at lot at close range against Luigi.
Then we're sliding across the stage because of the attack hitting his shield, so it's like being thrown during a sliding grab. lol
Then we're sliding across the stage because of the attack hitting his shield, so it's like being thrown during a sliding grab. lol
Dudes, PSC (lol that name) to Ftilt isn't even hard to do.
And if Luigi isn't at Ftilt range then you've got nothing to fear save for cyclone, which you can break with a jab.
And yeah Darky, you should never be close to Luigi, staying at Ftilt range is your best option on the ground. And Bair/Uair range when in the air, etc etc.
Luigi's only medium range options are Bair, fireballs and cyclone.
The rest he has to be in your face to use them.
And if Luigi isn't at Ftilt range then you've got nothing to fear save for cyclone, which you can break with a jab.
And yeah Darky, you should never be close to Luigi, staying at Ftilt range is your best option on the ground. And Bair/Uair range when in the air, etc etc.
Luigi's only medium range options are Bair, fireballs and cyclone.
The rest he has to be in your face to use them.