The Captain Falcon Match-Up General Discussion ~ Week 21 (?)

[Darxmarth23]

So basically out range him and avoid fireballs.
I like D-smash for him too.

 

[mlorenzo]

And if you don't have time to do an uptilt or bair we can alway do a angle f-tilt. It stops most of his aerial approaches.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Yup. Thats the beauty of F-tilt.

So where are we on this guys? I'm down for 60-40, use B-air and U-air in the air. Work your way around the fireballs with SH tactics and use f-tilt?
Be wary of his slide. the dude is practically on rollerskates.

anything else?

 

[Zatchiel]

Yup. Thats the beauty of F-tilt.

So where are we on this guys? I'm down for 60-40, use B-air and U-air in the air. Work your way around the fireballs with SH tactics and use f-tilt?
Be wary of his slide. the dude is practically on rollerskates.

anything else?

Don't forget to use tilted Ftilt if you can, the IASA frames are important. You can Jab directly after if Luigi tries to punish OoS. Use Utilt on edge-guarding, most of Falcon's Specials in this MU are a no-no, since Luigi (if not every character) can punish all of them heavily, especially if they're avoided. Don't use a lot of Dtilt, Dsmash is best (Smash wise), and as normal, abuse Uair and Bair spacing, and don't always run in on Luigi. Try to play mainly defensive and keep a camp game. If you rush in on Luigi while he's camping with Fireballs, then you're going to get punished by monumental hits, and more than likely, his Jab. Punish any lag you see with Ftilt, Bair, or Uair, and you have to tools to keep Luigi at an offstage game. 60-40 Luigi. I shouldn't really have to explain how Luigi can deal with Falcon if he gets a grab or something, so the MU pretty much speaks for itself. Falcon has a few benefits that give him a fighting chance, but these few advantages are critical, like Luigi's traction and offstage game. Luigi has many benefits over Falcon, few of them are extremely critical, like KO power, camping game, projectiles, and i'm pretty sure he's got an awesome grab game over Falcon. He doesn't have too many kill setups, especially with Jab > FJP being blockable by Falcon, but Jab > Dsmash might work, i haven't tested it quite yet. Both Falcon and Luigi have decent Jab Locks, but Luigi's is much more usable and safer than Falcon's.

Does anyone have a CP list for Falcon vs Luigi? I haven't really thought through on it, but i'd list one CP as BF or YI for Falcon, and SV orPS1 for Luigi. They're both inaccurate CPs (i don't really get the chance to play this MU often, i only play 2 Luigis in the state), but they seem decent to me at the time. I'll try to get better summaries of this MU soon enough. That is, if the MU Discussion is still up at that time.

 

[lordhelmet]

I'd take Luigi to FD or Delfino. BF ain't bad but fireballs are annoying as **** there for me.

 

[Zatchiel]

I'd take Luigi to FD or Delfino. BF ain't bad but fireballs are annoying as **** there for me.

Yeah, the Fireballs are a real pain, especially when you're trying to maneuver on ledges and platforms. But BF's platforms put Luigi at a disadvantage if we manage to get under him, below a platform. You can expect very easy defenestration if you take Luigi here, and Uair with Utilt can prove a challenge for Luigi on this stage. We can keep Luigi from getting on the platforms, because if he does, he'll take defenestration > almost any attack. The defenestration itself can be a kill setup, especially if he's caught off guard, and doesn't tech. Likewise, if Falcon takes defenestration, he's in a likely position to take a kill move, or even a Fireball Lock (at the appropriate mid percents), if he doesn't tech.

FD isn't a bad stage for either of them, imo, but i think Falcon has "better" stages. Delfino is a definite yes.

 

[mlorenzo]

I think we pretty much cover this mu. I like cp Luigi, to Delfino, FD. Just playing in a stage that you feel comfortable.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Counterpicks that are decent for Falcon against Luigi?

Smashville is usually my primary counterpick, but Luigi has an easy time controlling that stage too, so unless you're really mindgame(ish) and feel comfortable there, don't do it. Final Destination isn't bad considering you have the room to camp and bait Luigi; his main approach options are using his down+B (tornado) on the ground to get close and fireballs. His aerials are obviously good mains of zoning as well, but they limit him to direct-- non-stage altered approaches that are easier to read.

You have to keep in mind, Falcon doesn't have the proper tools to be playing all that aggressive. Defensive and being well-paced is key to competitive gameplay. If you know what you're doing and you've got good control, you'd probably have a much easier time on Final Destination.

Main reason for saying that, Luigi has weird knockback properties. He slides if you hit his shield, his combos frametraps on platform stages are more guaranteed and easier to pull off than Falcons [and] he has an easy time KOing after racking up damage-- damage which Falcon has a hard time escaping due to him being an extreme fastfaller.

If you don't want to go to Final Destination, perhaps a stage like Brinstar would be good, assuming you know how to play there.

 

[-Derezzed-]

I like FD. Just because I end up going there in most matches anyways. Sure Luigi has odd knockback properties, but I think FD is the easiest place to handle him.

However, Brinstar and stages like it do limit his approaches. He won't be able to ground-nado his way, and adding two more levels on which you can stand causes fireballs to be easier to evade. What this stage does add is a chance to approach vertically, but because I find falcon moving from place to place relatively fast in competitive play, green machine would have a hard time doing that so its no issue.

If we can get under luigi, then that's good. Brinstar and BF are stages to try.

 

[Darxmarth23]

We done with Luigi?
I think we've got a whole lot of info thanks to the contributions made my Darky and Zatch along with the rest of our regulars. Enough to have a grasp on this match up.

But its up to you guys. Actually, up to lordhelmet, its his thread.
But lets not let this have no life for a while.

 

[lordhelmet]

Ne xt

 

[mlorenzo]

What about if we discuss Samus or Lucas.

 

[Zatchiel]

I can help with both of those, more-so Samus, but it's up to you guys.

 

[Psychoace]

I say Samus. I want to get a better understanding why people say she should be higher on the tier list. Not that the match-up between us and her matter, but just to add more info to the research.

 

[Yung Mei]

the only projectile samus has IMO thats actually effective is her Charge Shot

We can just jab the missiles, and IIRC super missle too

If she tries to missle spam us when we're in the air, flub knee>missiles


we also have the FANFUS or h/e its spelled loop (good luck with that)

 

[Player-3]

lucas poops on falcon

 

[Zeallyx]

fhanfus loop samus for epicnessz

 

[Zatchiel]

the only projectile samus has IMO thats actually effective is her Charge Shot

We can just jab the missiles, and IIRC super missle too

If she tries to missle spam us when we're in the air, flub knee>missiles


we also have the FANFUS or h/e its spelled loop (good luck with that)

Missiles are the least of your worries in this MU. While you're wasting time trying to rid of missiles, we could be spamming you with Zair until you're offstage, where we could potentially gimp, or our edgeguarding game goes into play.

I also RARELY see Samuses that just fire off a CS without setup. If you get in on Samus, and you land a Grab or Uair, you can put her in a bad position by killing her breathing space. She's got horrid to no up close offensive options. Screw Attack is potentially our best OoS option, but i like to use OoS Nair against Falcon at high percents. If you take a FF-Uair, expect some follow up, like Screw Attack, Jab, Nair, Fsmash, or a tilt. Our Usmash is pitiful. Dair or gimping is our best shot at killing you since Dtilt can be DI'd by Falcon to very high percents (I've lived to about 150-155% on Samus's fresh Dtilt), and CS can be blocked and also DI'd heavily. Bair is hard to set up becsuse it has a small sweetspot at the tip. If it hits, it normally kills before 140%. Samus has scary space and camp game over Falcon. Approaching with air dodges and defensive tactics should land Falcon up close with ease. Samus has two good options off the ledge: Ledgehop an Fair, or Ledgehop a Zair if they're farther away. Other than that, we can just camp to lure you into a bad position, onstage or off. Samus's Dtilt can easily get Falcon off the ledge, without risking damage from ledgehop Uair. Samus's Bombs have use near the ledge, they can also hit Falcon out of just about any move. Falcon's Bair can play a very nice role here, especially OoS, if Samus is trying to spam Zair from behind. As mentioned, the Fhanfus Loop is also vital in taking control, but it's limited to you getting in on us. I think Falcon might have a hard time landing FH-Nair on Samus, mainly because she's rarely grounded. Unless we misd a grab; our standing grab is a few frames under Falcon Punch's duration, if not tied. Running grab is a little over half that, so expect running grabs more. Pivot grabs punish rolls, hard-landings, Falcon Kick, Raptor Boost, Falcon Fsmash, and Dash Attack/ Running approaches. If you can bait a (rarely used, if at all) grab by Samus, you've got a guaranteed lock/stock (Fhanfus Loop was guaranteed, right?)

fhanfus loop samus for epicnessz

Considering you can land FH-Nair, i don't see why not xD

I'll classify an MU ratio after the discussion gets enough thought.

 

[teluoborg]

Hmm dunno much about the MU, but if she wanna Zair or Bair or missile cancel she has to SH and wait for the fall. So punish the rising SH before she can make any move.

 

[Player-3]

ASK RAMZEHZ ABOUT IT

capz

 

[Darxmarth23]

Samuses use Z-air like its their *****.
It's just horizontal spacing. Z-air on the tip does like, 8% or something as opposed to 3-4 everywher else.
Once you're in the Z-air zone then its just straight to beating the **** out of her. jab is nice to start things up like usual.

 

[Zatchiel]

Hmm dunno much about the MU, but if she wanna Zair or Bair or missile cancel she has to SH and wait for the fall. So punish the rising SH before she can make any move.

If she chooses to take the lag of Zair, she can do a rising Zair, then a second one while falling. Rising Bair can also allow 2 uses in mediocre succession. Missiles are better left done while falling to the ground to cancel the lag, but if Falcon is far enough, Samus can do 2 (seeker) missiles in a full hop. This can create an incredible wall for Falcon, and can set up a CS KO. Super Missiles are best on when Falcon is playing to much in shield, and these eat them away. They can be SH-FF'd, to cancel any lag she'd get from them in the air. Also, i reiterate: I think Samus's Nair on defense is good in this MU at the higher damages. If she SHs and you try to run in with beleif that she's attempting to execute a Zair, Nair can put you out further than where you started. I believe FF-Uair > Fsmash works against Falcon decently. Angled up, we've got a KO option in this MU at around 130%-140% on exemplary DI. Oh, and Samus's Utilt beats Falcon's ledgehop Uair. Likewise, Falcon Utilt can beat Samus's ledgehop Fair in a speck of range. I don't know who's does more knockback as an anti-air move, but anti-air Utilt > followed by an edgehog can result in Falcon's death at appropriate percents. Samus can survive with bomb jumping, provided she doesn't DI at the wrong angle.

 

[Chuee]

lucas poops on falcon

>:D
10poops

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon is close to even with Samus on any stage that isn't Battlefield.

 

[Zatchiel]

Falcon is close to even with Samus on any stage that isn't Battlefield.

Who would you say has an advantage on BF? I'm really undecided since both of their Uairs are very good at performance here. I thought Samus's might be a bit better than Falcon's here, but that could be only against his shield.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I'm pretty sure overall samus is a bit better on battlefield than falcon.

she likes having a platform close to the ledge. i've seen tudor set up a lot of nifty traps with them.

 

[lordhelmet]

Lucas is easy. Samus is even easier.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Yo, this is what i've got:

Projectiles and Z-air:
Outside of Z-air range, she's gonna missile and charge shot. Those are easy to take care of, as mentioned. Samus's only viable killer is by using a charge shot cause it's the safest out of all of her killing options against us. So don't let her charge up. Dash attack and raptor boost is what I find my self reluctantly using to simply knock her out of it. The thing is, she isn't gonna stay in this missile/CS only range because her most efficient distance is in tip of Z-air.
Z-air is gay. Honestly, I would say use close-to-ground air dodges and power shields. Go to a stage with platforms allowing you to utilize multiple levels to get past Z-air. You can expect a grab attempts right out of a z-air sometimes; only if the Samus is stupid or has balls. Z-air cancels are gay too. Just watch out for this move because it simply is Samus's best move.

What to do when you get into samus's bad zone (pretty in front of her up close):
Feel free to use movestrings that wouldn't otherwise work on other characters. She struggles to get out of them. She'll try to push you into Z-air range because she sucks hand to hand. She'll often be forced into a shield. Kick her ***.

Recoveries:
She also can't kill for ****. A good falcon that can DI well should last like, 175%.
Just watch out for her offstage game. She has more opportunities to move to reach the ledge. Her recovery is really good, and there isn't much to do about that because of her abundance of offstage options.
Expect a D-air spike attempt whenever you recover with Falcon Dive. Get to the ledge as fast as possible. Don't **** with her around the ledge.

U-air:
Watch out for U-air. Samus mains like to use it to start move-strings. Since we can get past missiles and z-air due to nice vertical and horizontal mobility, and we are decent against her up close, u-air is something they are gonna keep in mind because it leads into many, many things. It's priority increases as the the move goes on and it autocancels. It's her best way to start a combo. Don't put yourself above her, and don't let her knock you where she can use it. This means standing on platforms doesn't give you an advantage when you're up close. Whenever there is an opportunity to drop, take it. Keep her above you.

N-air and B-air:
Hate them both. Her N-air has decent priority and comes out at decent speed. On top of that its a sex kick. It interrupts move-strings because within a few frames, the hitbox is at its max and just staying there for a while.
B-air is one of samuses better moves. I just simply wouldn't allow myself to get behind her. Expect it.

Bottom Line:
Don't put yourself above samus. just dont. Get past projectiles fast, get past z-air fast, and then samus won't have many viable options against you.
Play Smart! She's got a lot of **** to throw at you.
All of her aerials autocancel. Samus has combos ready for you, but don't be afraid; you have **** for her too. With good DI and evasion of CS, D-tilt, and B-air, you're gonna last till about 175%, allowing you more time to just kick ***. Get past all of her projectile and z-air bull**** and just beat her up. don't mess with her around the ledge or off stage cause she'll try to gimp. just knock her out clean off the stage.

EDIT: @Zatch: I think we might actually have a benefit there because of the platforms too. Since the stage is pretty small horizontally, she would mainly z-air a lot because that is the range that we'd find ourselves in. She would have to z-air on multiple levels though, and that is problem because she'd have to full hop to manage falcon on two other levels of vertical placement (Top platform, bottom two).
They would have to play differently. Z-air played differently here, and the ledge game is a bit different because of the close placement of the platforms.

NEXT.

 

[mlorenzo]

awesome. I think darx. cover pretty much the matchup. We should move to Lucas :D

 

[Darxmarth23]

Thanks. Samus is one of the MU's I know. But if anyone sees anything wrong with what i've posted, then say it cause we should have input from as many different credible people as possible for an informative MU discussion.

I'm down for that, but it's gonna be up to you guys. idk anything about lucas.
which means its time to go play against some lucases.

 

[Yung Mei]

ive only played one lucas, and i got buttpummeled



Watch the **** out for his PKFire, dont we have a grabrelease/regrab thing on him?

thats my only input :\

 

[Psychoace]

On Samus, b-air is also used sometimes for killing. After up air watch for up b.

 

[Zatchiel]

Falcon has a legit GR on Lucas. I don't know if it could be followed up by BDacus or Hyphen smash, since i'm pretty sure our Dsmash won't reach afterwards (will it?)

 

[Psychoace]

Doubt it. Hyphen smash seems logical though.

 

[teluoborg]

Lucas releases almost as far as MK.

So there...

 

[Zatchiel]

Lucas releases almost as far as MK.

So there...

I actually thought he was somewhat close, like Dtilt range or something. His fastest (good) option would be Jab. You you shield all the hits, you can Ftilt afterward.

What about Lucas's air release? I'm pretty sure we can Uair, but is anything else guaranteed?

 

[lordhelmet]

I actually thought he was somewhat close, like Dtilt range or something. His fastest (good) option would be Jab. You you shield all the hits, you can Ftilt afterward.

What about Lucas's air release? I'm pretty sure we can Uair, but is anything else guaranteed?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287523

Man, you guys.

 

[PZ]

I want to get this straight every1 knows the thread with all the threads exist right? for the falcon boards

 

[Makaveli tha Don]

Grab release is pretty much what most people go for against phsycic boys, and it pretty much summarizes our offense game against them.

What to watch out for?

 

[Zatchiel]

Grab release is pretty much what most people go for against phsycic boys, and it pretty much summarizes our offense game against them.

What to watch out for?

Nair, and to a lesser extent, PK Fire. Lucas's Jab is also very very good, and is frame 2. Try to avoid taking a FH-Dair at high percents by surprise, since it can lead into a Dtilt Lock, which can set up for, well, a KO move. If you take the Dair, you can tech the setup. It's actually quite easy to do so especially if you're expecting it.

I think Lucas's Ftilt is also a good spacer, and it can be followed up by Jab if it gets shielded. If you're going to approach Lucas (most likely for a grab), have a full shield ready because he's most likely going to SH-Nair since PK Fire isn't a very good camper; It just forces your opponent to do something, rather than trying to shield it all. Don't expect a lot of grabs from Lucas unless they're Pivot grabs, which I highly doubt will be used excessively. Use lots of Uair when he's above you, since Uair has more range than his Nair, and Dair from Lucas is a horrid option on getting back to ground. If he air dodges the Uair, you can grab him if you FF to the ground. Well spaced Bair can also be good when he's behind you, not when you want to gimp, though. If he's facing forward, his Fair beats your Bair, so look out for that.

He's pretty easy to gimp, definitely. I would not recommend going at him from far out, mainly because you risk getting gimped yourself. I think the tip of flub Knee can cancel out Lucas's PK Thunder head. If someone could test this, that would be nice. FH(first hit)-Nair from Falcon can lead into a decent amount of pseudos on Lucas.

Be ready to DI an Fsmash at high damages if you manage to get hit. If you get hit by Dsmash, SDI is really really effective. Lucas's Utilt can be used to force an air chase on Falcon, and is normally set up by Dthrow at low percentages. Bthrow from Lucas shouldn't KO until the very high percentages, and you should be dead by something like Dthrow before you even get that high. If you take Usmash, either: You've just been forced to stand up by Dtilt. You just got air-chased after a jump from the ledge. You suck. Your shield broke. You missed ANY of Falcon's Special moves. Etc.

The favor is Lucas, but not by a lot. He has a lot of moves that can keep Falcon out, but when it comes to aerial game, Falcon has a slight advantage. If you get hit by Lucas's Nair, your definitely in for something. Likewise, if Lucas is put offstage or in the air, he's in a likely position to be juggled, gimped, or even both.

If anyone finds a chink of info they find eerie or strange, I'd love to answer questions or correct myself.