The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Tetsuro]

Excellent post AlphaZealot, I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. I especially appreciate that you address and discuss both sides of the argument, since there are many who only stick to one side without ever truly examining the other sides points.

 

[Waggles]

Agree 110%. Someone give this guy a medal

 

[Bud]

Great post, I agree 100%. I was waiting for a response like this, and I couldn't be more proud of the way you defended brawl. It seems to me with more time will come great evolution. 10 stars.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

The most eloquent, intelligent, well thought out, and convincing Pro-Brawl argument I have read.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

I saw some people asking what other characters besides diddy had good approaches.

-snake's dash cancel (as stated before) is extremely hard to punish.
-Toon link's aerial range and mobility in the air help him stay out of graping range pretty much all the time.
-Wario's aerials are good for approaching to because of his mobility. not the best range though.
-Marth is... Marth...
-Meta knight is also meta knight?
-G&W's Bair is simply godly.
-Ike's Bair is pretty good
-Zamus, how can you even think of shield grabbing her?
-Olimar seems to have a decent approach, plus "combo" potential.
-Lucario same as above.
-Pikachu's Nair is pretty good. he also has a variety of high priority attacks.
-Jiggly's Bair.

...dunno about others.

If camping is such a big problem in brawl why do Marth and Meta knight seem to do so well in tournaments? how has meta knight placed so well against the overly campy characters, that according to some people, are technically invincible?

Unless you say that a character like Metakinght is actually horrible, you can't say camping will give someone an incredible advantage.

Really plenty of Brawl supporters understand that melee seems to be a more appropriate game in terms of competition. but Brawl's competitive community already seems bigger than melee's.

A friend of mine hosted a brawl/melee tourney recently, about 60 people attended, only 12 participated in melee singles.

Even if you think Brawl is an inferior game, I don't see whats the point of sticking to melee other than becoming a casual gamer. If there really is no future for Brawl, I doubt theres much hope for melee. Barely anyone hosts melee tourneys anymore, let alone SBB64.

If you really want to stay in the competitive scene maybe you should look for a fighter that is more of your liking.

 

[Bud]

like wii boxing.

 

[NES n00b]

Cause MK has huge disjointed hitboxes, little body, actually has sheildstun moves with multiple hits that come out fast and have little lag, and has great air mobility to retreat. I don't think alot of characters fit this description. XD

 

[Mr.Victory07]

! a pro-brawl melee vs Brawl post. And excelently put too. Your arguments against all the pro-melee args are fantastic, and put some essay like pro-melee posts too shame

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Cause MK has huge disjointed hitboxes, little body, actually has sheildstun moves with multiple hits that come out fast and have little lag, and has great air mobility to retreat. I don't think alot of characters fit this description. XD

ROB doesn't fit that description but it does well also.

just look at it, its huge!


*waits for thatswhatshesaid joke.

 

[Psiklone]

I like this post.

In almost every other competitive community, such as sports or other fighting games, people seem to enjoy that the game they play is technical and actually time to get good at these things. But in this community, there seems to be a handful of people who don't understand this for whatever reason.

Yes, but technical skill isn't when you practice tennis your whole life, only to get to competing against a professional, and find out that he can magically slide across the court.

I've seen people do great combos in Melee, including myself, using prediction of my opponent's moves. I still had to move fast, though, and many would not move quite that fast.

I think there's a difference between technical ability from practice and an in-game exploit or bug.

That may not be what AlphaZealot was saying in his post, but it's what I believe.

 

[AlphaZealot]

To the person who asked who beats MetaKnight: Shrug? Diddy does decently in the match up actually, Banana's beat the tornado. That said, I think some people should look at Jiggpypuff, her air mobility can be used to get around the tornado and drill to rest is basically a free KO at decently low percentages (some have said 50%, though I never seem to get rest KO's in Brawl any lower than 70 or 80%).

 

[thumbswayup]

Diddy's back air can also beat the tornado. You have to hit it just right from the side.

 

[Repryx]

Lulz Falco is a good counter against MK as his lasers still boast the highest priority and he can chaingrab.......


-Ciao

 

[NES n00b]

To the person who asked who beats MetaKnight: Shrug? Diddy does decently in the match up actually, Banana's beat the tornado. That said, I think some people should look at Jiggpypuff, her air mobility can be used to get around the tornado and drill to rest is basically a free KO at decently low percentages (some have said 50%, though I never seem to get rest KO's in Brawl any lower than 70 or 80%).

50 if they don't DI. I guess. Depends on when you drill at 50 or 60 maybe. I think 60 when you use rest is more accurate.

Snake can beat Metaknight. Also, ROB does well because of camping. I told you why Metaknight actually does well despite having no projectile and why he doesn't have to camp (well not all the time <_<). That was what you asked.

 

[Artery_Clogger]

Yes, but technical skill isn't when you practice tennis your whole life, only to get to competing against a professional, and find out that he can magically slide across the court.

I've seen people do great combos in Melee, including myself, using prediction of my opponent's moves. I still had to move fast, though, and many would not move quite that fast.

I think there's a difference between technical ability from practice and an in-game exploit or bug.

That may not be what AlphaZealot was saying in his post, but it's what I believe.

But you need to practice an 'exploit' like wavedashing to be able to do it consistently. These things are part of technical ability.

I don't understand your example about tennis. If your looking to compete in Melee, chances are you will know the different techniques in the game, just like in tennis. Say you play tennis and your relatively good, but for some reason you are not aware you can put spin on the ball and you hit all of your shots flat. Then you go to play with someone who is better than you and he knows how to hit shots with spin. Compare this to wavedashing. This is relatively similar situation, which based on your logic you said could not happen.

 

[SiegKnight]

No comment till I can attend aforementioned big tourney with my metaknight in May and show all the Brawl doubters what I truly believe to be the right way to approach Brawl competetively and give the game its first breath of direction. Yeah, I mean first.

I'm telling you, if you can put yourself in your opponents shoes in a match of brawl and read their movements, you instantly win because the defence mechanisms will protect you when you need, and you will figure out what they're trying to do and tech chase them to **** them over.

You can be in a 3 vs 1 match with items trying to randomize it vs you and still win. I think the combat is that flexible, though I fully understand how camping can become a trouble time to time that will be a thorn in my side here. Pitts and Toon Links don't bug me much nowadays though, I very often powershield them.

Though figuring out and hitting an opponents attack pattern in its psychological weakspot was in Melee, the tech skill and IMO more divided roster - even if because theres less choice - actually took away from what I'm trying to turn brawl into; and am really so far succeeding IMO.

I want to give this game more time. I swear it'll become amazing even if only because its a players game now he fine tuned it down to a black slate. If you're a truly potent gamer you should realize that psychology matters more than tech skill in spades. Most players don't know the difference between a good sf player and an amazing one; its not how you can 2 in 1 or, heck, you don't even need your super, or so they'll tell you.

Not all players can overcome psychological barriers in games, not even some amazing and steller ones; one player I know had to travel the world and fight in SBO to be able to read people well within his own game. But Brawl really is nothing but figuring out. If you can guess someones flow, and you're already at the top of the spacing and movement game - not hard to be either - you've basically got it in the bag.

 

[killbeast301]

AlphaZealot gained 1000 exp. points! AlphaZealot grew to lv. 100! What? Alpha Zealot is evolving!

AlphaZealot evolved into AlphaZealot! Guess you can't get any better than Alpha Zealot.

Seriously, you win an internet, landmaster, and a personal fairy to annoy people by yelling "Hey, Listen!"


Also,

ROB doesn't fit that description but it does well also.

just look at it, its huge!


*waits for thatswhatshesaid joke.

That's what she said.

 

[replicate]

Yes, but technical skill isn't when you practice tennis your whole life, only to get to competing against a professional, and find out that he can magically slide across the court.

I've seen people do great combos in Melee, including myself, using prediction of my opponent's moves. I still had to move fast, though, and many would not move quite that fast.

I think there's a difference between technical ability from practice and an in-game exploit or bug.

That may not be what AlphaZealot was saying in his post, but it's what I believe.

Are you kidding?

Don't you think it's a little late in the game to be making "advanced techs are glitch exploits"
threads?

 

[metroid1117]

I only wish I could write this well. Brilliant post, and very informative. This should be (and needs to be) stickied.

 

[DSM01]

Wow, I read the whole thing. Many good points made, and it's similar to how I feel about Brawl. Melee veterans are looking at Brawl and wanting it to be Melee, but we have to realize that it's not Melee. A person new to Smash with no prior Melee experience would not see anything wrong with this Brawl, so why should we? People have to accept it for what it is, and not criticize it for what it isn't.

 

[KernelColonel]

10 charizards for you, Alpha

Thanks for saying this...

If all else fails, don't forget that this game will be made competetive by the hordes of "new" players looking to be the best at it.

 

[aids514]

Wow. That was an amazing post AlphaZealot. I'm worried, however, that it will be seen by the anti-Brawlers as another attack and they'll get all defensive again.

What pisses me off the most is when people get mad at Sakurai like he intentionally tried to hurt the competetive smashers. "The competitive scene made smash what it was today, and in turn Nintendo spits in our faces. Thanks a lot Sakurai."(From Zjin's article). We should be praising Sakurai (and Nintendo) for greating an amazing game. (Hell it's better than most of us could do). Brawl isn't perfect, neither is Melee. Can't we just be happy that we have two super badass games to play (three with SSB64)? Everyone needs to stop being so greedy. Nintendo failed to create a 100% perfect video game...so sue them.

I think the anti-Brawl Melee pros are just pissed off that they'll likely be removed from their ivory tower. Because of the lack of a (large) technical-skill barrier, M2K might have some competition for top place every once in a while and that pisses him off. Hence the blind Brawl hatred.

I love both games, I think that everyone needs to relax on the whole debate because neither game is better. If you like Melee better, play Melee, nobody is stopping you. I'll be playing Brawl. Don't bother me and I won't bother you. I might join you every once in a while because I still think Melee is a fantasic video game acheivement. Stop your *****ing and come join me once in a while. Even if you don't like Brawl as much as Melee, you can't deny that Brawl is a fantastic video game.

Different =/= worse.

Agreed.

 

[derf]

If you like Melee better, play Melee, nobody is stopping you.

lmfao. everyone is stopping us. brawlers expect brawl to take over the tournament scene and for "anti-brawlers" to be cool with that.

the brawl v melee argument is rooted at the tournament level. obviously, you can play whatever game you prefer with your friends. no one is against playing brawl. were just against melee tournaments dying.

 

[RWB]

What pisses me off the most is when people get mad at Sakurai like he intentionally tried to hurt the competetive smashers. "The competitive scene made smash what it was today, and in turn Nintendo spits in our faces. Thanks a lot Sakurai."(From Zjin's article). We should be praising Sakurai (and Nintendo) for greating an amazing game.

Um, i'm not Pro-Brawl or Anti-Brawl, as I haven't even tried the game yet...


But Sakurai did try to hurt the competetives.
Or, more correctly, he wanted to make it so one that plays the game for the first time can beat someone who've spent a lot of time trying to get good.

Both are the same thing in effect.

Stop trying to defend Sakurai from even the most logical criticism. He's not a paragon of virtue.

 

[Iwan]

Nice post Alpha...and really, most of us DO INDEED miss things from melee.

Hell, i'd sell crack to get Hit stun back.

Thing is though, this game still does take skill, and the better player still wins consistently. There's still failry substantial gaps in skill, and really...whether some people want it to or not, brawl will be competitive and be popular as a competitive game...simply because there are hundreds of thousands of people who want brawl to be competitive.

If there's a will, there's a way...and there's most definitely a will among the competitive community to make brawl work.

 

[aids514]

the brawl v melee argument is rooted at the tournament level. obviously, you can play whatever game you prefer with your friends. no one is against playing brawl. were just against melee tournaments dying.

Fine, then stop the tournaments from dying. There are enough pro-Melee players to still hold tournaments. I realize that there likely won't be MLG like tournaments anymore but did you really expect that competitive Melee (at the MLG level) would last forever? Even without the release of Brawl, MLG and EVO would have eventually dropped Melee.

 

[NES n00b]

Fine, then stop the tournaments from dying. There are enough pro-Melee players to still hold tournaments. I realize that there likely won't be MLG like tournaments anymore but did you really expect that competitive Melee (at the MLG level) would last forever? Even without the release of Brawl, MLG and EVO would have eventually dropped Melee.

Yet super turbo keeps going on and on. Interesting..........

 

[aids514]

Um, i'm not Pro-Brawl or Anti-Brawl, as I haven't even tried the game yet...


But Sakurai did try to hurt the competetives.
Or, more correctly, he wanted to make it so one that plays the game for the first time can beat someone who've spent a lot of time trying to get good.

Both are the same thing in effect.

Stop trying to defend Sakurai from even the most logical criticism. He's not a paragon of virtue.

I know Sakurai isn't a "paragon of virtue" he's a decent guy though I'm sure. It just bugs me when it's characterized as "Sakurai spits in our faces" like he's some vindictive sadist. He made a video game. Said video game is lacking in wavedashing (I'm over-simplifying, I know). Therefore, Sakurai is spitting in our faces?

We take these games for granted. It took a lot of hard work to create Melee and Brawl. Sakurai's just trying to get paid like the rest of us and we're all acting like he's a Smashboards member.

Whatever, man. I just think that he did a pretty good job and made Brawl in the same mindset he made Melee. We have to stop treating Sakurai as some God who controls the advancement of the metagame. His job is over, it's up to us now.

 

[aids514]

Yet super turbo keeps going on and on. Interesting..........

Yah I don't know what super turbo is. Smash is really the only game I play..I'm not a fighting game vetran like most of you.

Regardless, I probably just got counter-pointed by NES n00b. Touche (accent aigu haha).

I don't know do you really think that without Brawl, Melee would still be played at MLG 2015? I'm not being a ****, I'm seriously curious because I don't really get the nature of competitive fighting games outside of smash like most of the rest of you probably do. I just thought that MLG would have droped Melee eventually anyway...but I could be wrong.

 

[R i p]

He means the best version of Street Fighter II.

I think Melee tournaments should continue if they are the better display of skill out of the two, but I wouldn't want to see Brawl phased out either. They play very differently from each other, but I guess it's too much to ask if they both shared the spotlight? I'm a Brawl player and will continue playing Brawl no matter the outcome is.

I can only hope someone can take elements from both games and make a superior game for the next Smash if there is one. Brawl does good things in some areas and does bad things in some other areas. What really tick people off is that those bad things seem intentional.

MLG 2015 will probably be all FPS with Halo 5 and CoD8 as the headliners. Maybe some Madden.

 

[Yuna]

yes, but the technique can be performed say after pika's b which would force the opponent into the initial shield and follow it up with that technique or without. It will be the ever changing of doing the technique into a smash, not doing the technique and smashing, or grabbing them. It puts them to where they have to prepare for 3 possible actions. I could think of more, but i haven't spent enough time with the technique (5 min) to be sure, however, it will help some and no yuna, you can just expect them to sit still and wait. very very true.

Again, when did I ever say that Brawl didn't have mixups at all?

You actually watched that video and then determined immediately that nothing will come of it? The applications this has with some characters seems both interesting and useful, that you can't see the possibilities is making me think you are turning a blind eye toward brawl out of spite instead of embracing it with an open mind. I mean, by your logic, Azen should never hit anyone with an F-Smash with Marth the way he did in Melee and the way he still does with characters (IKE!) in Brawl, but it happens because he is smart and is good at prediction. You are only limited by your own faculties.

I said constantly. You speak as if this is some kind of game-breaking strategy that will always work. It's just one which is good and requires prediction and for your opponent to predict wrong. Rock-paper-scissors. It's an option out of many. I never said Brawl didn't have options, just that it has few.

I never said it had no applications. Don't misinterpret someone's words so gravely.

This never happened.

And, I'm also confused, I wasn't asserting either games dominance over the other, merely pointing out the numerous flaws in oft touted anti-Brawl arguments. And at current, of course Melee requires more thought then Brawl, but we can't discount Brawls possible progression for reasons like "ZOMG NO HIT STUN!".

No one said Brawl can't possibly be played because of no hitstun. We're merely saying that the lack of hitstun is gonna stunt it's growth and limit the options unless we find some truly game-breakings strategies and techniques.

 

[SiegKnight]

Brawl is evidentally mindgame centric because its the methodical players who tend to prefer Brawl and the more technically flashy players who prefer Melee. Azen said on gfaqs that Brawl is plenty awesome and competetive, and always will be. But thats just his opinion of course; he's psychological as hell. I saw a handful of his vids as Fox vs ken as Falcon, and the difference in technical dexterity was apparent.

I mean, he'd wavedash after a victory of stock in the same sense I dance back and forth with cancels in most games or dash dance into extended grabs or smashes in Brawl to tuant, and he'd mix it up with it, but he'd rarely rely on any tricks close up. All guessing, he didn't even space too well.

Considering thats his style of gameplay, he probably doesn't notice anything wrong with Brawl. Its like making an MMO where any class can work whether you fight close up or through menu's as a mage, then making a sequel where only physical combat or spell organization are elaborate individually, the other being reduced to nothing (even though they might've made a great team in the previous MMO and added strategy)

This of course is bound to piss off people who relied on the other extensively, or felt using a synergy made it a captivating experience for them.

This might display the difference in opinion with players concerning Brawl overall.

 

[Yuna]

I main Peach in Melee. Everyone can agree on that Peach doesn't rely on tech skill that much at all. And yet I dislike Brawl for a plethora of reasons. There's a lot more wrong (IMO) with Brawl than the simple lack of technique (which I don't view as a fault, it's the fact that the options said techniques came with are now gone and weren't replaced by other options that I dislike).

 

[Facet]

I agree with the arguments in the OP. Brawl is different than Melee in that it is much more focused on mental dexterity, rather than the technical dexterity that is emphasized in Melee. Melee advocates claim that this is a bad thing, but I think it is a great improvement. I really dont think theres anything more to this argument, really.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

I agree with both Syn and AZ. I'm just glad to see rational, eloquent discussion on the Brawl/Melee schism and someone pointing out discrepancies without flaming the poster to dead.

You both have my undying respect.

 

[Crizthakidd]

do people want to watch 2 stock 8 minute matches tho? im all for advacing brawls gameplay but if all the real smashers are sticking to melee while the new guys who just want a game for fun play brawl...then...

 

[AlphaZealot]

Define "real" Smashers, because all the old really good Melee players are playing in Brawl tournaments, and at least a decent percent of them will likely not revert back to Melee in a few years.

 

[Prince Of Fire]

Excellent thread.

I really liked your point about "moving your fingers fast." Thats really my problem in Melee. If I could spas out like most of the Foxes and Falcos I play...I could keep up. I think at this current point...melee is overall a better, more fun game. But I'm doing 10X better than in Brawl than I ever could have done in melee.

I placed 13th at Esticle in CT
4th, 2nd, and 5th at other misc tourneys mixed with scrubs and good players.

 

[Tony_]

The Melee VS Brawl argument is flawed due to the fact that fanboys can simply flame one another just to defend their game.

In one corner, you have a game only what, 70%-80% of the gaming population didn't remember until what, last May?

In the other, you have a game that only came out recently, and everyone knows about it. Its even become more popular than Melee. This is fact. Don't try to refute it.

One game uses tech skill, the other uses mind skill.

Sure you can pull off flashy manuvers and **** like that, but who honestly really cares if you do? It takes much effort and time just to do that. Why play a game competitively when you COULD play a NEW game and try to help develop it's metagame rather than complain about it like a 5th grader who didn't get what he wanted like the spoiled rich child he/she is?

If you have the better mind games, you can win right? WRONG. To simply say this and make it the end all is not only idiotic, but its also ignorant. Players who use the same things over again with characters as "mind games" can eventually catch on to your opponents strategy and quickly turn it against them.

Camping and playing a game of tag is the current brawl metagame? ****. No. You just can't play around good campers and aren't probably that good at the game, so naturally you turn to a "BRAWL IS BAD BECAUSE OF THIS" argument, which only fails because you haven't either played it for a long while or you suck against Pit/Link/Toon Link/ players.

Being aggressive is the end all thing? No. Being aggressive only leads to you getting destroyed by people who can be VERY defensive against you, and could read you like a book.

The point is people you CANNOT compare the two casually, nor competitively. Its like trying to compare Animes to US cartoon because the cultures are WAY different.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

do people want to watch 2 stock 8 minute matches tho? im all for advacing brawls gameplay but if all the real smashers are sticking to melee while the new guys who just want a game for fun play brawl...then...

I think DSF would fall in the "real" smasher category... he has won plenty of brawl tournaments recently yet he doesn't play melee anymore at all (at least I haven't seen him play). I don't know what you are talking about.