The Battle for Power! (Matchmaking & Video Thread)

[Ffamran]

Despite what the title says, there's 21 total matches of Ganondorf vs. Ike, 5 on 3DS and 16 on Wii U, that were uploaded on terminalkai: https://youtu.be/WuBdlOTV9k0. Different players, so critique appropriately. Also, any names that are recognizable?

 

[WwwWario]

Put out another montage this week, I hope you enjoy! It'll probably be my last for a while, but my bucket list of Ganon exploits has to be fully completed. I put in a few clips with fellow board members too, although many of the matches had just as much or more styling on me.

Yet another awesome montage I must ask: How do you get those awesome super-slow motion effects? They look SO smooth! Just like the videos from Rush Hour Smash. I use Sony Vegas' standard slow motion feature, but what do you use?

 

[SmashRacer]

jmanup85 Here is a set between me and ADAPTChance. You're welcome to critique the set
www.twitch.tv/adaptchance/v/25658700
The set begins at 01:41:00

 

[jmanup85]

jmanup85 Here is a set between me and ADAPTChance. You're welcome to critique the set
www.twitch.tv/adaptchance/v/25658700
The set begins at 01:41:00

Disclaimer: I may sound like a jerk.

Ok so first I can tell you're new to Ganon but not smash. The positive is that you won the set and you have the potential to get better lol. Honestly the things I saw wrong were pretty apparent even to the guy who was talking in the background. You use way too much uair and you rarely use anything else. I saw maybe 4 bairs and no fairs or even a dair (which is fine sometimes because it can be situational). Nair usage was weird at times and you autopiloted way too much. You should take advice A2 gave someone awhile ago which is to start properly spacing bair, it's tough to autopilot when you start doing that. Aside from that bit of advice I'd say to start using your other aerials and also stay grounded every once in a while and to use dtilt, ftilt and your smash attacks a bit more. Once you start figuring it out things like edgeguarding come into play, but I'm sure you already know that. I recommend playing some of the Ganon players here to get a better feel for how he is. I heard you played
adom4 so try playing Koskinator , because he sucks and is a great punching bag. Welcome to the Ganondorf life my friend... it's gonna be one hell of a ride lol.

 

[SmashRacer]

jmanup85 Alright, thanks for the critique . I appreciate it
I see there is a lot I need to work on and there is room for improvement.
Btw, do you still want to see the matches I had against the Mewtwo player I fought on FG? There is about 5 matches

 

[Koskinator]

Ya play me im a ****ing joke

 

[mgleed]

Yet another awesome montage I must ask: How do you get those awesome super-slow motion effects? They look SO smooth! Just like the videos from Rush Hour Smash. I use Sony Vegas' standard slow motion feature, but what do you use?

I use Adobe Premiere & After Effects. The effect is called Timewarp with After Effects, which is slow motion with pixel-motion frame interpolation. Twixtor does the same thing, and I think Vegas supports it, but I don't know if it costs money or anything else about it. If you have any other questions about it feel free to PM me.

 

[SmashRacer]

Koskinator I will be able to play some matches tomorrow

 

[Koskinator]

Oh boy i cant wait

 

[Opana]

I played in a fairly big tourney yesterday, I lost fairly early as well to a GnW who got 5th and IQHQ|Gohan who also lost early to a Palutena. I wasn't very happy with how impatient I played, I fell into some unusual patterns and made some fatal mistakes that Gohan capitalized on well in our mm. On the plus side my teching was fairly on point, and at the very least I did well in friendlies vs. those who I'd fought. I'm disappointed in placing so low(I don't even know and somewhat son't care to lol), but it was a good experience; the reads were not with me though lol.

At the very beginning we had a 50$ MM, I wasn't on stream otherwise outside test runs.:

http://www.twitch.tv/ssj2_gohan_/v/27685613

I am aware of my mistakes but feel free to critique me anyway if you'd like.

 

[Koskinator]

My stomps
My stomps
My lovely lady stomps

 

[_Magus_]

My stomps
My stomps
My lovely lady stomps

Now imagine that in Ganondorf's voice

 

[Vermanubis]

I played in a fairly big tourney yesterday, I lost fairly early as well to a GnW who got 5th and IQHQ|Gohan who also lost early to a Palutena. I wasn't very happy with how impatient I played, I fell into some unusual patterns and made some fatal mistakes that Gohan capitalized on well in our mm. On the plus side my teching was fairly on point, and at the very least I did well in friendlies vs. those who I'd fought. I'm disappointed in placing so low(I don't even know and somewhat son't care to lol), but it was a good experience; the reads were not with me though lol.

At the very beginning we had a 50$ MM, I wasn't on stream otherwise outside test runs.:

http://www.twitch.tv/ssj2_gohan_/v/27685613

I am aware of my mistakes but feel free to critique me anyway if you'd like.

At the risk of preaching to the choir, if there's one thing I've learned the hard way, it's to never commit against Falcon. I think in a lot of areas, you did the right thing, Opa. Most notable thing to me though, which I'm sure, as you said, you already know, is to be as passive against Falcon as possible. As far as getting the most outta Falcon offstage, I've come to just run into their up-b, tech it then UAir them. I also am usually willing to take all grabs if the Falcon is good about mixing their jabs/grabs up close-range. Once you know Falcon's setups (which you mostly did), his grabs aren't that scary; certainly much less than his jabs.

Anyway, I have a new vid:

I've come to respect the Lucario MU. I think it's definitely in Luca's favor, just because, as you can probably see here, aura sort of renders our power null in a lot of case, and he just has a lot of things we have no direct answers for, like wavebounce aura. Not to mention, so many of our moves are so commital that post-100% Lucario basically means anything unsafe is out of the question.

I also think Lucario succeeds really well in the MU whe he doesn't jump a whole lot and punishes landings like this Lucario did. He was really difficult to get in on, and grabbed almost every single thing I whiffed. I think the best way to challenge wavebouncing is either wizkick or carefully spaced SH BAirs. He just has a lot of fatal gimmicks. Wavebounce setups near the ledge are really stressful to deal with. Also, Lucarios who know how to roll intelligently are a nightmare.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Could I just make a random funsies request for a video on the Charizard match-up? It boils down to who can disrespect the other the most, essentially.

 

[| Kailex |]

Just dont give zard battlefield, please

 

[MintyBreeze]

Well, darn, this came at a convenient time.
http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-ganondorf.425287/#post-20554603

 

[adom4]

At the risk of preaching to the choir, if there's one thing I've learned the hard way, it's to never commit against Falcon. I think in a lot of areas, you did the right thing, Opa. Most notable thing to me though, which I'm sure, as you said, you already know, is to be as passive against Falcon as possible. As far as getting the most outta Falcon offstage, I've come to just run into their up-b, tech it then UAir them. I also am usually willing to take all grabs if the Falcon is good about mixing their jabs/grabs up close-range. Once you know Falcon's setups (which you mostly did), his grabs aren't that scary; certainly much less than his jabs.

Anyway, I have a new vid:

I've come to respect the Lucario MU. I think it's definitely in Luca's favor, just because, as you can probably see here, aura sort of renders our power null in a lot of case, and he just has a lot of things we have no direct answers for, like wavebounce aura. Not to mention, so many of our moves are so commital that post-100% Lucario basically means anything unsafe is out of the question.

I also think Lucario succeeds really well in the MU whe he doesn't jump a whole lot and punishes landings like this Lucario did. He was really difficult to get in on, and grabbed almost every single thing I whiffed. I think the best way to challenge wavebouncing is either wizkick or carefully spaced SH BAirs. He just has a lot of fatal gimmicks. Wavebounce setups near the ledge are really stressful to deal with. Also, Lucarios who know how to roll intelligently are a nightmare.

I do agree we lose but i don't think we lose that badly, we're one of the few characters that can kill him early reliably enough so his aura won't get too high, also i think it's one of those MUs that are harder on wifi.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I only lost one time to a WiFi Lucario on Anther's (if that means anything). I explicitly pick up Ganon for MUs like Sonic and Lucario since his damage output and knock back is worth to me. My Dk can rack up damage and kill (kinda) but my Ganon kill with tilts and the fear.

 

[Vermanubis]

I do agree we lose but i don't think we lose that badly, we're one of the few characters that can kill him early reliably enough so his aura won't get too high, also i think it's one of those MUs that are harder on wifi.

It's definitely not awful, but I'd feel remiss saying Ganon doesn't have to put in a reasonably larger amount of effort than Lucario, just because Lucario has a lot of ways to trap Ganon and put him in really bad spots. Like I mentioned, Lucario can cover so many options with wavebounce aura sphere against Ganon, especially on the ledge, that trying to reset or get back on stage can be extremely stressful. We can put the hurt on him, sure, but he has a lot of things which we can't directly challenge.

It's not a MU I dread, necessarily -- I actually like it a lot -- but it's a MU whose uglier side is less apparent than something more obvious with, say, Villager or Sheik. I feel like in any scenario, Ganon's KO potential should be estimated cautiously, since those who play the MU very anally (rarely jumping, extreme patience, etc.) don't often afford us the opportunity to consistently capitalize on our strength. Against characters like, say, Bowser, against whom we can consistently land our strongest hits, I think Ganon's strength becomes a viable consideration in the MU. In cases with the likes of Pikachu or more mobile characters capable of walling Ganon, blaze of glory fsmashes that land every once in a while seem too chancy to really factor into things.

 

[verbatim]

I only lost one time to a WiFi Lucario on Anther's (if that means anything). I explicitly pick up Ganon for MUs like Sonic and Lucario since his damage output and knock back is worth to me. My Dk can rack up damage and kill (kinda) but my Ganon kill with tilts and the fear.

I think we talked about this recently but I wanted to bring it to the greater group's attention since IIRC we disagreed.


What is everyone's opinion here on Ganondorf/Olimar. I'm of the opinion that it's anywhere from 50-50 to advantage Ganondorf.

Olimar's wall of Pikmin is amazing for wracking up damage and keeping people out. But all of Ganondorf's moves destroy or clank (purple only) with all of his Pikmin, he's arguably the easiest character in the entire game to edgeguard (as Ganon), and Down Smash is a followup off of Flame Choke if they don't techroll that kills at 60-80% depending on rage. Sure he's annoying, but you have an even stupider risk reward game than ZSS in this matchup.

 

[Opana]

Tbh I don't feel like Ganon goes anymore than even with characters, I just feel like his weaknesses are too prevalent and exploitable.

Thanks for that Verm, I'll have more footage this Wednesday for anyone interested in reviewing that as well. I had a bad case of tourney nerves if I'm gonna be honest, a lot of pressure on me to do well that day and it's the only tourney since I've attended these again I've done poorly. Not to take away from Gohan or anyone else though, as him along with the others played well.

 

[Vermanubis]

Tbh I don't feel like Ganon goes anymore than even with characters, I just feel like his weaknesses are too prevalent and exploitable.

Thanks for that Verm, I'll have more footage this Wednesday for anyone interested in reviewing that as well. I had a bad case of tourney nerves if I'm gonna be honest, a lot of pressure on me to do well that day and it's the only tourney since I've attended these again I've done poorly. Not to take away from Gohan or anyone else though, as him along with the others played well.

I understand completely, man. Every time I travel to Spokane for tourneys, I feel that pressure, since 10 hours of driving and a good chunk of money's on the line each time I go. So I've had to cope with tourney nerves a lot, too. Compounding this is the fact that I never have a chance to practice before them, and I'm constantly undergoing a controller identity crisis. Gotten much better about it though.

As for Ganon going even, I agree there. I think it takes having the real privilege of fighting someone who has a lot of experience in the MU and is willing to play a bit lame to make people realize his power doesn't really count for all that much. MU ratios are predicated on things both people can do consistently; getting hard reads and people making monumental **** ups aren't consistent things. Ganon has nothing he can reliably do that's difficult to exploit, with the exception of a small handful of chars.

MintyBreeze : If I can find a really good Charizard, I'd love to!

 

[Opana]

Damn 10 hours? You're really dedicated, yeah I'd be super nervous if I spent a lot on gas and tourney fees with nothing to show for it. And wow the controller thing, it took me a week to adjust to my new controller and all tourney I played poorly, your adaption is too strong lol.

Yeah well said; honestly I feel like Ganon's potential is fantastic but I always tell people he's unlikely to reach that since he's so unreliable. As quickly as he can end a stock he can be guarded so easily, vs. someone with a great offstage game or a character with fantastic offstage tools you're either taking a lot of damage or dead.

 

[Ffamran]

E-Serpent's Ganondorf vs. Ksev's Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfY1KUu4Pqk. Rule 1 of fighting heavyweights: Don't get hit. Question 1 if you're fighting Ganondorf and you're Fox: why are you not using your Blaster? Each time Ksev went in, he does Fox things, but then he screws up and gets hit hard. There were times Ksev should have not approached E-Serpent and used Blaster to at least tack on damage and make E-Serpent feel like he has to move in. Every time I watch players go in against characters with really good damage per hit or good close-range options, I start to question why. Just why? Falco, Ganondorf, and Ryu come to mind as characters you should never go into their range willingly. Y'know, this is kind of funny since this was a critique on Ksev's Fox on the Ganondorf boards... Oh well...

E-Serpent vs. Nibble's Mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxVc8eaf3UY.

E-Serpent vs. Yoshi Kirishima's Palutena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-yVXTdTVe4.

 

[Vermanubis]

Damn 10 hours? You're really dedicated, yeah I'd be super nervous if I spent a lot on gas and tourney fees with nothing to show for it. And wow the controller thing, it took me a week to adjust to my new controller and all tourney I played poorly, your adaption is too strong lol.

Yeah well said; honestly I feel like Ganon's potential is fantastic but I always tell people he's unlikely to reach that since he's so unreliable. As quickly as he can end a stock he can be guarded so easily, vs. someone with a great offstage game or a character with fantastic offstage tools you're either taking a lot of damage or dead.

Maybe better to say, 10 hours total, 5 hours one way. As for the controller, it's one of the biggest reasons I wanna get a Wii U finally. I never have had a chance to practice on a GC controller with things like BAir ledgehopping, getting used to certain movements, etc. Not that it's a major negative influence, but I still want to concretely seat myself in a comfortable spot with the GC controller, since the 3DS is just too limiting. The limbo manifests in the form of sometimes using c-stick for aerials, sometimes use A. Sometimes FFing DAirs offstage when using the c-stick, sometimes not.

And yeah, Ganon's just, by nature, inconsistent, and I've come to accept, as I'm sure many others have. He's definitely capable of winning stuff, but just as a matter of statistics, he won't do it consistently because said wins will come from hard reads rather than the ability to capitalize on difficult-to-exploit strategies. Solid fundamentals are a massive help, but with Ganon, fundamentals bring you only so far; there comes a point where, as I've mentioned before, Ganon becomes an engine rather than a character who enjoys his own merits. By that I mean, playing him becomes intensely cerebral in that which the lack of direct answers to many things requires second-order (and at that, n-order) thinking. Sheik thinks "FAir OoS"; Ganon thinks "aight, so he's gonna use his second jump, wavebounch to change his momentum and then shield, so I'mma jump at him and tomahawk him then read his reaction"

 

[verbatim]

Maybe better to say, 10 hours total, 5 hours one way. As for the controller, it's one of the biggest reasons I wanna get a Wii U finally. I never have had a chance to practice on a GC controller with things like BAir ledgehopping, getting used to certain movements, etc. Not that it's a major negative influence, but I still want to concretely seat myself in a comfortable spot with the GC controller, since the 3DS is just too limiting. The limbo manifests in the form of sometimes using c-stick for aerials, sometimes use A. Sometimes FFing DAirs offstage when using the c-stick, sometimes not.

And yeah, Ganon's just, by nature, inconsistent, and I've come to accept, as I'm sure many others have. He's definitely capable of winning stuff, but just as a matter of statistics, he won't do it consistently because said wins will come from hard reads rather than the ability to capitalize on difficult-to-exploit strategies. Solid fundamentals are a massive help, but with Ganon, fundamentals bring you only so far; there comes a point where, as I've mentioned before, Ganon becomes an engine rather than a character who enjoys his own merits. By that I mean, playing him becomes intensely cerebral in that which the lack of direct answers to many things requires second-order (and at that, n-order) thinking. Sheik thinks "FAir OoS"; Ganon thinks "aight, so he's gonna use his second jump, wavebounch to change his momentum and then shield, so I'mma jump at him and tomahawk him then read his reaction"

IDK how you're doing in the smash fund but we honestly could all chip in 5$ and help you get a Wii U if you don't have the circumstances to get one yourself.

 

[jmanup85]

If I had things my way you'd have a Wii U....

 

[A2ZOMG]

Tbh I don't feel like Ganon goes anymore than even with characters, I just feel like his weaknesses are too prevalent and exploitable.

Thanks for that Verm, I'll have more footage this Wednesday for anyone interested in reviewing that as well. I had a bad case of tourney nerves if I'm gonna be honest, a lot of pressure on me to do well that day and it's the only tourney since I've attended these again I've done poorly. Not to take away from Gohan or anyone else though, as him along with the others played well.

We beat Jigglypuff and Wario about 55/45. Would be more than that if it weren't for Ganon's subpar recovery, but Ganon kinda obviously controls the matchups when they kinda have to make pretty non-trivial reads to get past Ganon's N-air.

 

[adom4]

I don't agree completely, i do think Dorf wins several match ups but all of them except puff are 55-45 imo, and i agree that he's rather unreliable his strengths always keep him in the game, he doesn't get janked hard like he used to get in Brawl (and a bit in Melee).

 

[Gold_TSG]

i do think Dorf wins several math ups

Least he did better than I did in class.

 

[Opana]

Idk maybe it's because I had a set controller I was using, or maybe because the L button would get stuck forcing me to grab and shield with r1/2 on the cc. But yeah traveling 5 hours is rough and I'm sorry you don't have any closer tourneys man.

Yeah anytime I play a competent Sheik in tourney I need to make so many reads, it's sad I had to rely on a Ganoncide one set lol. It's cool though, he really has changed how I play the game and that's transferred to every character I use, When I use a character with better tools a lot of the time I still see myself going for these reads and getting much less out of it instead of relying on those moves. Makes me play some characters very interestingly tosay the least.

I gotta disagree, I still don't believe Ganon has an advantage vs anyone. Even the likes of Jiggs and Zelda I feel he doesn't beat lol, I've fought competent players of those characters and I believe they too can take advantage of his weaknesses fairly easily while the same can't be said for Ganon. Despite that though maybe I wouldn't say he's the worst since he has a lot of potential.

 

[Swoops]

E-Serpent's Ganondorf vs. Ksev's Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfY1KUu4Pqk. Rule 1 of fighting heavyweights: Don't get hit. Question 1 if you're fighting Ganondorf and you're Fox: why are you not using your Blaster? Each time Ksev went in, he does Fox things, but then he screws up and gets hit hard. There were times Ksev should have not approached E-Serpent and used Blaster to at least tack on damage and make E-Serpent feel like he has to move in. Every time I watch players go in against characters with really good damage per hit or good close-range options, I start to question why. Just why? Falco, Ganondorf, and Ryu come to mind as characters you should never go into their range willingly. Y'know, this is kind of funny since this was a critique on Ksev's Fox on the Ganondorf boards... Oh well...

This is an interesting point I see brought up a lot. Most people I see arguing their match up against Ganondorf and describing competent play vs Ganondorf discuss the ease of just walling him out and playing run away. In practice and in tournament though I just don't see this style adopted nearly as much.

I'll keep my mind open because I do think the strategy exists and I want to experience it more, but my opinion as of now is that run away and evasive safe play works to rack up some damage but isn't as effective in the long run. The tacking on damage part is great, but in general I see a lot of people using safe, effective rushdown with little to no gaps for rebuttal. I think rage and the threat of leaving Ganon around too long does a lot to dissuade people from just running away for most of the match, given that a rage Ganon can get a kill/edgeguard situation at ridiculous percents with one read of your evasive patterns. Thoughts?

 

[adom4]

This is an interesting point I see brought up a lot. Most people I see arguing their match up against Ganondorf and describing competent play vs Ganondorf discuss the ease of just walling him out and playing run away. In practice and in tournament though I just don't see this style adopted nearly as much.

I'll keep my mind open because I do think the strategy exists and I want to experience it more, but my opinion as of now is that run away and evasive safe play works to rack up some damage but isn't as effective in the long run. The tacking on damage part is great, but in general I see a lot of people using safe, effective rushdown with little to no gaps for rebuttal. I think rage and the threat of leaving Ganon around too long does a lot to dissuade people from just running away for most of the match, given that a rage Ganon can get a kill/edgeguard situation at ridiculous percents with one read of your evasive patterns. Thoughts?

I once faced a Sheik that camped me hard & tried to time me out.
In the end it didn't feel that great because i eventually killed him with rage & when he had to get close to me he struggled.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is an interesting point I see brought up a lot. Most people I see arguing their match up against Ganondorf and describing competent play vs Ganondorf discuss the ease of just walling him out and playing run away. In practice and in tournament though I just don't see this style adopted nearly as much.

I'll keep my mind open because I do think the strategy exists and I want to experience it more, but my opinion as of now is that run away and evasive safe play works to rack up some damage but isn't as effective in the long run. The tacking on damage part is great, but in general I see a lot of people using safe, effective rushdown with little to no gaps for rebuttal. I think rage and the threat of leaving Ganon around too long does a lot to dissuade people from just running away for most of the match, given that a rage Ganon can get a kill/edgeguard situation at ridiculous percents with one read of your evasive patterns. Thoughts?

I do firmly believe Ganon's worst matchups are usually against characters that are able to rush him down safely, due to his poor oos options.

 

[| Kailex |]

Not necessarily rush him down, see megs, screw that mu

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't think camping is generally a great strategy against Ganon as a character who doesn't excel at it like Mega Man, as | Kailex | said. The problem is when they play really passively and know Ganon's blindspots. Camping itself isn't that effective; camping intelligently is, however.

Also, here're some much higher quality vids from the set from which that Lucario vid I posted earlier came:

@Croi is a great example of someone who I think plays the MU in the way I think makes life very hard for Ganon. Not campy, but knows the safe spots against Ganon, and doesn't take many unnecessary risks. Instead, knows exactly when to go in (notice how often I'm punished with grabs upon landing).

Also, can't believe I didn't see this 'til now, but jmanup85 and verbatim , you guys're just something else. I really appreciate the sentiment. Don't worry though. I'll probably get one soon enough, if I play my cards right!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Anyone up for some good dittos can join my room, which'll be up in an hour. More than one welcomed.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I have a room up, anyone care to ditto?

 

[mgleed]

I have a room up, anyone care to ditto?

I'd love to play a bit, though I doubt I'd last long. I just sent a friend request. (my nnid is mgleed)

 

[Gold_TSG]

I have a room up, anyone care to ditto?

Any chance I can get in on this? I'm looking to learn more than to win.
Sent a request. NNID is Slyger_Magreiva