The Aura is with him! - Lucario Thread

[Kozzer]

I've been playing Lucario lately and I kinda hate his ssb4 FS. What if it was his EX move from pokken as his new one? Or a bone rush combo move kinda like Sheik's new fs or Ike's as Mega Lucario?

 

[MetroLSD]

I've been playing Lucario lately and I kinda hate his ssb4 FS. What if it was his EX move from pokken as his new one? Or a bone rush combo move kinda like Sheik's new fs or Ike's as Mega Lucario?

As long as he throws a kick during the combo...ye

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Lucario's FSmash used to have a lot more range in Brawl and could even out space Snake's UTilt.

Alas. I don't think they'll change Lucario much, since he has been in a couple Smash games already. It would be nice if he was a bit more of an in your face grappler, but I get the feeling the Smash dev team have a lot of trouble balancing this character's feel already with Aura... We will see soon though...

 

[MetroLSD]

I'm hoping they'll show what his new Final Smash looks like?

 

[Masonomace]

Based on some footage, i saw Lucario use Jab1, and shield. However, upon shielding, Lucario scooted back during shield so it was a small form of auto spacing. Meh.

Lots of Ftilt got shown off. Was a point where his Ftilt someone that was behind Lucario, being the Corrin. Mostly was just ASC, shielding, and backrolling. Could of been more? Full jab combo still looked meh but maybe wasn't mashed fast.

 

[PF9]

I was recently able to acquire a Lucario Amiibo, which I will not only use to gain access to him at the advent of my playing of Ultimate, but I will actually train the resulting Figure Player, who I will name Cadbury.

Any guesses as to why I would use such a name for a Lucario Amiibo?

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

I was recently able to acquire a Lucario Amiibo, which I will not only use to gain access to him at the advent of my playing of Ultimate, but I will actually train the resulting Figure Player, who I will name Cadbury.

Any guesses as to why I would use such a name for a Lucario Amiibo?

Because Lucario really likes chocolate?


On the speculation front, I hope they reverse the Extreme Speed landing lag nerf from smash For.

 

[Iridium]

Aura Storm needs to unnecessarily extend this far if it comes back for Lucario.

 

[WolfCypher]

I'm probably not adding anything new to this topic (hi, everyone), but I really want Lucario's FS to be it launching a large Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama Aura Sphere.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wish we got more info or some more gameplay with him. I’d like to see more info on him so I can judge some ideas.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I wish we got more info or some more gameplay with him. I’d like to see more info on him so I can judge some ideas.

We could find at least tentative frame data by using . and , on YouTube. I am looking forward to labbing his DSmash which appears to have a hitbox out on frame 19. ASC to DSmash I already call No Hugs Pawease.

I hope Shoryufloof will still work (ASC to USmash).

I think the Roys already have a decent amount of data iirc.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We could find at least tentative frame data by using . and , on YouTube. I am looking forward to labbing his DSmash which appears to have a hitbox out on frame 19. ASC to DSmash I already call No Hugs Pawease.

I hope Shoryufloof will still work (ASC to USmash).

I think the Roys already have a decent amount of data iirc.

I wish i knew of teens like Shoryufloof before this. It’s brilliant.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I wish i knew of teens like Shoryufloof before this. It’s brilliant.

For each Smash game it is now tradition that I geve Lucario techs/combos increasingly fluffy names.

To stop me you have to beat me to discovering it.

With how air dodges work in this game I am expecting No Hugs Pawease to have quite a bit of application.

 

[Luigifan18]

Aura Storm needs to unnecessarily extend this far if it comes back for Lucario.

Wait, what?!? Did Aura Storm seriously reach that far in Brawl, or is this a mod? Seriously, this extends way past the blast line...

 

[Iridium]

Wait, what?!? Did Aura Storm seriously reach that far in Brawl, or is this a mod? Seriously, this extends way past the blast line...

Yes. Yes it did. But, I guess this normally wouldn't be seen too much, but it's real.

 

[MetroLSD]

Lucario's FS has been confirmed to be Aura Storm from Brawl with Mega Lucario added, meanwhile Yoshi get's a cinematic new FS :/

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

Was hoping for a Mega Lucario bone rush as the final smash, but at least this one will be more effective than the one in Smash For.

 

[Thatonehelper]

Lucario's final smash in ultimate Thanks treehouse live

 

[Aurane]

Does anyone know if Lucatio's White alt from Brawl is back? Not to be mistaken with his grey alt from 4.

 

[Foxy Alopex]

With Incineroar in Smash Bros Ultimate I'll be happy to say he is going to be one of my new mains next to Lucario and others.

 

[Cheryl~]

We've gotten some more Lucario footage from the Spain event!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw08NfWRTzU&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rTQrxxUBZU&


Sadly this is about all I could find aside from the Incineroar vs. Lucario fight from the Treehouse but that didn't really show much about Lucario. But yeah, Lucario looks better than ever in Ultimate (Aura Sphere especially, it looks gorgeous), and I'm so excited to main him again with all the good changes coming to him :D

 

[Downshift]

I hope becomes less dependent on aura, for it is way too stressful to score any K.O.s at low percent. In fact, I would argue no aura Lucario has worse kill power than Sheik in SSB4. A better K.O. ability at low percent would make him less stressful to use and make him feel less gimmicky.

This is primarily what I want as well.

The issue with low/aura Lucario isn't so much his lack of KO power, it's his lack of range and knockback on his moves that hinder his neutral and constantly throw him into disadvantage.
It may or may not be actually true as far as technical hitbox and frame data, but it just feels like he has tiny little hitboxes barely the size of his paws that are only out for 1 frame. My aerials lose out to basically anyone else's aerials, and his grounded moves are too small with no knockback or hitstun that they're not even safe on hit due to his standard endlag and terrible frame data in general.
This all resulted in him having an absolutely abhorrent neutral and disadvantage game (and I'm also a Zelda main, so I would know). Basically just tank hits until you're over 80%, then you can try to go in because only now do your attacks even have hitstun.
It's really hard to put my finger on it, but in playing Brawl recently, 0% Lucario just felt more capable to going toe to toe with most fighters than 0% Lucario does in Sm4sh, and that's a huge issue.

I'd really be OK with his aura being weaker at >150%, if it meant he was stronger at <50%.

 

[TK Wolf]

This is primarily what I want as well.

The issue with low/aura Lucario isn't so much his lack of KO power, it's his lack of range and knockback on his moves that hinder his neutral and constantly throw him into disadvantage.
It may or may not be actually true as far as technical hitbox and frame data, but it just feels like he has tiny little hitboxes barely the size of his paws that are only out for 1 frame. My aerials lose out to basically anyone else's aerials, and his grounded moves are too small with no knockback or hitstun that they're not even safe on hit due to his standard endlag and terrible frame data in general.
This all resulted in him having an absolutely abhorrent neutral and disadvantage game (and I'm also a Zelda main, so I would know). Basically just tank hits until you're over 80%, then you can try to go in because only now do your attacks even have hitstun.
It's really hard to put my finger on it, but in playing Brawl recently, 0% Lucario just felt more capable to going toe to toe with most fighters than 0% Lucario does in Sm4sh, and that's a huge issue.

I'd really be OK with his aura being weaker at >150%, if it meant he was stronger at <50%.

I can't vouch for the correctness of this, but this wiki says that they did what most of us were hoping with his arua. Overall base damage increased across the board, lower boost from aura.
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Lucario_(SSBU)

 

[godogod]

I just want brawl Lucario back in some way. The forward air comboing into itself, down air stalling in the air particularly...

 

[Downshift]

I just want brawl Lucario back in some way. The forward air comboing into itself, down air stalling in the air particularly...

First, I definitely agree about the down air. While it does still stall in the air, it doesn't seem as effective at stalling or as an attack in general. I almost never use it now.
When I finally saw the hitbox visualization, I realized why; the first hit of Dair is a very very very tiny hitbox, with only the second hitbox being as large as they both were in Brawl. This was a huge nerf since that first hit was the one that we relied on for that surprise attack that could get people off of us quickly by beating out attacks, mainly multi hit combos. Now it either clashes or just gets beat out by the attacks we're trying to escape or overtake.

Second, Lucario's aerial mobility...
It's been hard for me to put my finger on why I gravitated more towards Samus in Sm4sh after maining Lucario competitively in Brawl, and if you look at my list of mains they all mostly have one trait in common that I prefer: Floatiness.

So if you look at falling speeds of my mains in Brawl: (Fox and Puff there as the two extremes for context)
Brawl Falling Speeds:
Fox: 1.831
Lucario: 1.2
Zelda: 1.13
Samus: 1.07
Jigglypuff: 0.98

Lucario was a faster faller than Zelda and Samus, but was still very floaty and only barely fell faster than Zelda.
But then if you compare those to Sm4sh:
Smash 4 Falling Speeds:
Fox: 2.05
Lucario: 1.68
Zelda: 1.35
Samus: 1.3
Jigglypuff: 0.98

Lucario falls a whole lot faster in Sm4sh. Going from just the 35th fastest of 39 fighters, all the way up to 14th out of 58 fighters.

On top of that, Gravity is the other attribute that affects how a character feels in the air, and Lucario's low gravity also attributed to him feeling so regal while airborne. That too was changed far more than my other floaty mains after Brawl:

Brawl Gravity:
Fox: 0.175
Zelda: 0.067
Lucario: 0.0625 (even less than Zelda's)
Samus: 0.058
Jigglypuff: 0.98

Smash 4 Gravity:
Fox: 0.198
Lucario: 0.084
Samus: 0.077
Zelda: 0.071
Jigglypuff: 0.98

So Lucario's combination of these two changes means his falling speed is faster and he reaches that speed quicker.
Not saying this makes him worse per se, just that he falls out of my natural wheelhouse for how I play my aerial game and makes him less enjoyable to play.
However, like godogod said, this makes it feel like he can string fewer attacks together in a single full hop or DJ, while also seeming to make him less evasive and more predictable in the air while trying to land. We always have B-reverse aura sphere, but I can't pull that off consistently since I'm a filthy casual.
However, in watching videos from the demo of how Lucario handles, he does seem to have that super smooth, long DJ back that he had in Brawl. So maybe they slowed his falling speed or lowered his gravity a bit going into Ultiamte. I guess we'll have to wait for the smart people to data mine these stats for the new game once it launches.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Two more days and I can give Lucario another try.

Didn't fit me in Smash 4 but I'll see where I end up with him on another go.

 

[Downshift]

Two more days and I can give Lucario another try.

Didn't fit me in Smash 4 but I'll see where I end up with him on another go.

Why didn't he fit you?

My issue with him was his lack of floatiness, as if they overhauled his entire mobility moveset to be a fast faller which makes him feel like a totally different character.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

My local arcade got the game a few days early so I spent 90% of my time messing with him. I'll say that aura definitely took a hit, I was around 120% and Puff was at 90% and he still lived from a Force Palm command grab, but I think characters don't die at percents you'd think they would otherwise so it's just not just specific to him.

Speaking of Force Palm, the cosmetic aura changes might actually kinda hurt him. I couldn't tell if the flame/projectile part got a hitbox nerf cause I was spacing it at ranges where I'd assume it would connect but it wasn't. Probably just needs more testing though.

Also ExtremeSpeed is great. I don't have to be as specific to get reduced landing lag and you can actually bounce him off stages, I've seen videos of it on Lylat but I made it happen a few times on FD. I doubt it's anything essential but it is a nice gimmick and a way to alter your landing. I also dig his new nair but I still have the same cosmetic issues with it as I did with FP so I couldn't tell if it got a hitbox nerf as well or I just wasn't aura'd up enough.

 

[godogod]

Lucario's acceleration speed got buffed. From 0.07 to 0.09

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_acceleration
http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirAcceleration

 

[Downshift]

Speaking of Force Palm, the cosmetic aura changes might actually kinda hurt him. I couldn't tell if the flame/projectile part got a hitbox nerf cause I was spacing it at ranges where I'd assume it would connect but it wasn't. Probably just needs more testing though.

In Sm4sh, the FP aura made this huge laser that got longer with more aura... but the visualization was insanely misleading. The hitbox only covered a little more than half the distance it appeared to. I had screenshots where the end of the FP aura laser was actually going through someone and they didn't get hit.
In Ultimate the FP aura is now a burst instead of a laser and finally seems to match the actual hitbox, so I think it's a fix. I would have preferred that they just simply extend the hitbox, but whatever.

Lucario's acceleration speed got buffed. From 0.07 to 0.09

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_acceleration
http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirAcceleration

Doesn't look like he got any of his Brawl floatiness back though.

 

[godogod]

I'm guessing that would have to do more with gravity and fall speed?

 

[Alus]

Two more days and I can give Lucario another try.

Didn't fit me in Smash 4 but I'll see where I end up with him on another go.

Whoa you're still here!? That's sick!

Anyways, about lucario in this game, if you didn't like him in 4, I don't think the changes to the character will fix anything. However in my case in ultimate the new universal mechanics along with being able to freestyle while dashing hasn't exactly hurt my love for this old dog.

 

[Downshift]

I'm guessing that would have to do more with gravity and fall speed?

Yeah and his falling speed is the exact same 1.68 that it was in Sm4sh. Basically the same as Sheik, ZSS and Sonic.
Can't find anything on Gravity in Ultimate yet, but I imagine it's not changed much either.

Definitely not floaty.

 

[chaos_Leader]

Actually I’m gonna have to retract helping out with the aura findings. Kinda had enough of the game’s crap already. >>;

Good luck with your testing and all, but I’m not committed to this game. Just constantly frustrates the hell out of me. Sold it off.

I've been doing considerable lab work with Lucario's Aura mechanics over the last week, and I've got some pretty solid results now. If Zoa isn't going to maintain the Aura thread posted already, should I post my results there, or is an entirely new thread warranted?

 

[Zoa]

I've been doing considerable lab work with Lucario's Aura mechanics over the last week, and I've got some pretty solid results now. If Zoa isn't going to maintain the Aura thread posted already, should I post my results there, or is an entirely new thread warranted?

Go ahead and post it. I’ll maintain it as needed for you all. Just let me know what you need done.

 

[chaos_Leader]

Go ahead and post it. I’ll maintain it as needed for you all. Just let me know what you need done.

There, it's up. Hope it's useful!

 

[Albie83]

I love lucario as a character. I just wish I wasn't terrible at using him.

 

[Nysyr]

I'm really not sure what to think of grab being put to frame 7 and dash grab to frame 10. We just lost a frame off our fastest OOS option which really doesn't help given that the grounded kit is basically the same. All of the grabs now are also extremely laggy after use. If we had retained the old grab his kit would overall felt so amazing with being able to jump out of AS charge in the air and the amazing ground speed.

Reverse Utilt is now the absolute fastest option on the ground, Jabs initial hitbox is still garbonzo.

I think he will work well as a Dual main with Wolf since they are both so similar in attributes. Might grab Mewtwo just as a high tier crutch.




Oh and Merry Xmas, if you know what I mean

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I think the things I am most concerned about right now is frame data and hitstun. I think once we get that I'll stare at it an figure out combos.

Aside from Shoryufloof, No Hugs Pawease, Double Team, and DAir Hit 1 to buffered landing Force Palm... I'm having trouble figuring out kill confirms. What confirms we have is a lot harder to get compared to Smash 4. I might try making an Aura Chart with every single percentage increase like I usually do. Just to get a better feel for Ultimate Lucario. Even though there already is an Aura Chart.

 

[KakuCP9]

I think the things I am most concerned about right now is frame data and hitstun. I think once we get that I'll stare at it an figure out combos.

Aside from Shoryufloof, No Hugs Pawease, Double Team, and DAir Hit 1 to buffered landing Force Palm... I'm having trouble figuring out kill confirms. What confirms we have is a lot harder to get compared to Smash 4. I might try making an Aura Chart with every single percentage increase like I usually do. Just to get a better feel for Ultimate Lucario. Even though there already is an Aura Chart.

I think ASC->USmash, ASC-> bair and up/down throw->up air as well as just chucking Aura Sphere give Lucario a healthy amount of ways to seal a stock, especially since you can just bully the hell out of people at the ledge or suddenly land on someone with ASC. What I'm concerned about is what are we going to about shield pressure because Browny raised a good point about Lucario's lack of out of shield options outside of risking a parry. Like closest thing that comes to mind is slightly delayed dair since shield grab has been universally gutted.