The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[LancerStaff]

Except they have kept the vast majority of the gameplay details under wraps for whatever reason. All we know are the ledge grab changes, and that in the E3 build of Smash 4, air dodges were infinite like Brawl. Sakurai said though that was subject to change though.

Wouldn't you advertise the new Wavedashing if you were Sakurai? There's absolutely nothing supporting it's existence, but tons of things against it.

 

[pitthekit]

Hmm I think we should only have 2 air dodge limits once we are in the air. Just to make spamming air dodge to the ground a bit more timed and thoughtful.

Brawls infinite air dodge made muti jump characters aerial play better.
Wait a sec I main pit!
Never mind.

Wouldn't you advertise the new Wavedashing if you were Sakurai? There's absolutely nothing supporting it's existence, but tons of things against it.

We went over what options wave dashing adds to smash brothers.
So it has some support for existence.

If sakurai was going to advertise this new wavedash he would go against the "lowering the skill gap" philosophy for brawl.

Plus I think he would make wavedash cooler and simpler imputs.

Also I would like to have WD in smash 4 but I can live without it(I walked and dashed in brawl)

Um are we all going in an endless cycle with this debate?
I swear this question was asked before.

Someone break this cyclic debate!

 

[pitthekit]

Double post

 

[Big-Cat]

Wouldn't you advertise the new Wavedashing if you were Sakurai? There's absolutely nothing supporting it's existence, but tons of things against it.

Well, Sakurai did little to nothing in regards to going over mechanics beyond the mere basics prior to Brawl's release. And generally, fighting game mechanics are rarely advertised directly. The only exception I can think of was Street Fighter X Tekken's mechanics.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, Sakurai did little to nothing in regards to going over mechanics beyond the mere basics prior to Brawl's release. And generally, fighting game mechanics are rarely advertised directly. The only exception I can think of was Street Fighter X Tekken's mechanics.

Reintroducing Wavedashing would be huge. He didn't show off Brawl's mechanics because nobody was interested. But now there's people going 'Can you Wavedash!?' every time there's a trailer.

 

[Big-Cat]

Doesn't mean he'll do it.

 

[Muster]

Reintroducing Wavedashing would be huge. He didn't show off Brawl's mechanics because nobody was interested. But now there's people going 'Can you Wavedash!?' every time there's a trailer.

There are also people who thoroughly analyze each pic of Pyrosphere hoping that they don't see Ridley in the background. Wavedashing isn't the only anticipated thing that Sakurai hasn't yet shed light upon, he probably just has its reveal planned. (assuming it comes back)

 

[Miss Fit]

How would wavedashing in Smash 4 even work? Its been demonstrated that the air dodge is like Brawl and I doubt Sakurai would just change that randomly.

 

[Muster]

How would wavedashing in Smash 4 even work? Its been demonstrated that the air dodge is like Brawl and I doubt Sakurai would just change that randomly.

Sakurai says in this article that the game allows multiple air dodges "at this point", implying it is subject to change.

And also mimgrim's point \/, Wavedashing could be mapped to a completely separate action or button.

 

[mimgrim]

How would wavedashing in Smash 4 even work? Its been demonstrated that the air dodge is like Brawl and I doubt Sakurai would just change that randomly.

Melee air dodge doesn't have to be the way to do WD. >_>

How many times have I stated this now?

The Brawl demo that was at E3 had a form of WD in it that was still done from the air but instead of being done via a air dodge it was done through an attack, IIRC that is.

 

[nessokman]

Melee air dodge doesn't have to be the way to do WD. >_>

How many times have I stated this now?

The Brawl demo that was at E3 had a form of WD in it that was still done from the air but instead of being done via a air dodge it was done through an attack, IIRC that is.

Pics or it didn't happen

 

[LancerStaff]

There are also people who thoroughly analyze each pic of Pyrosphere hoping that they don't see Ridley in the background. Wavedashing isn't the only anticipated thing that Sakurai hasn't yet shed light upon, he probably just has its reveal planned. (assuming it comes back)

He's obviously holding off on Ridley to troll the fanbase. But the very first thing he'd want to do, if he actually put something like Wavedashing in, is put people's fears to rest about how 'competitive' the game is. But he clearly doesn't care much about hardcores.

Sakurai says in this article that the game allows multiple air dodges "at this point", implying it is subject to change.

''At this point the games will allow for multiple air dodges.''
He's obviously talking about just the number. Simply limiting air dodges wouldn't make Wavedashing possible.

 

[mimgrim]

He's obviously holding off on Ridley to troll the fanbase. But the very first thing he'd want to do, if he actually put something like Wavedashing in, is put people's fears to rest about how 'competitive' the game is. But he clearly doesn't care much about hardcores.

I didn't know you were best buds with Sakurai!

You better leak the game for us!

 

[Muster]

He's obviously holding off on Ridley to troll the fanbase. But the very first thing he'd want to do, if he actually put something like Wavedashing in, is put people's fears to rest about how 'competitive' the game is. But he clearly doesn't care much about hardcores.

he's not holding off Ridley to "troll the fanbase". He likely has a planned date to reveal Ridley's fate as well as other things like characters, stages, and mechanics. You completely missed the point.

''At this point the games will allow for multiple air dodges.''
He's obviously talking about just the number. Simply limiting air dodges wouldn't make Wavedashing possible.

Multiple air dodges changing to singular air dodges can mean more than one thing you know, and the only example of a singular air dodge we have is one that allows Wavedashes.
(also what mimgrim said)

 

[LancerStaff]

I didn't know you were best buds with Sakurai!

You better leak the game for us!

Seriously dude. Keep it a secret.
Just think about it. He'd put it in for hardcores, and 'they' are currently feeling betrayed by Brawl. Something this big and important would of been revealed by now to put the feelings of doubt to rest.

he's not holding off Ridley to "troll the fanbase". He likely has a planned date to reveal Ridley's fate as well as other things like characters, stages, and mechanics. You completely missed the point.


Multiple air dodges changing to singular air dodges can mean more than one thing you know, and the only example of a singular air dodge we have is one that allows Wavedashes.
(also what mimgrim said)

Who ever said it'd be changed to one airdodge? Why not two or three? Why not one for every double jump? He hasn't decided yet because he's balancing it. If he adds Wavedashing back in, all his work for balancing would be completely undone. Would Melee's tier list be the same without Wavedashing?

 

[mimgrim]

Seriously dude. Keep it a secret.
Just think about it. He'd put it in for hardcores, and 'they' are currently feeling betrayed by Brawl. Something this big and important would of been revealed by now to put the feelings of doubt to rest.

You have no way of definitively knowing that unless you are in the know with Sakurai, which you aren't.

Stop talking out of your a** plz.

Would Melee's tier list be the same without Wavedashing?

Most likely it would be the same. At worst it would only be a few minor changes. WD isn't that game altering rofl. xD

 

[Muster]

Who ever said it'd be changed to one airdodge? Why not two or three? Why not one for every double jump? He hasn't decided yet because he's balancing it. If he adds Wavedashing back in, all his work for balancing would be completely undone. Would Melee's tier list be the same without Wavedashing?

"At this point the game will allow for multiple air dodges"
You can't have less multiple air dodges, It's either multiple air dodges or not multiple air dodges, no middle ground here.
(multiple=more than one, so if it isn't more than one than it can only be one or zero air dodges)
Who says he doesn't have wavedashing in mind when balancing? At the very least he can decide wavedash lengths if he adds them in, and he could change the length of a wavedash to suit each character in his eyes. You're just assuming things and trying to pass them as facts.

Also, I'm pretty sure Sakurai doesn't account for tier lists in his balancing, as he balances a character for multiple modes and player counts when designing characters.

Regarding tier list changes due to wavedashing, there are very little, i'm pretty sure the only character that received a significant enough boost from wavedashing to warrant a higher placement was luigi, hardly "undoing" anything.


And yes, There was a metagame before wavedashing, Ken was top player before wavedashing, and instead he dash danced. Heck, he even beat people who could wavedash before he even knew what it was.

 

[LancerStaff]

You have no way of definitively knowing that unless you are in the know with Sakurai, which you aren't.

Stop talking out of your a** plz.





Most likely it would be the same. At worst it would only be a few minor changes. WD isn't that game altering rofl. xD

You can't definitely know either. My word is as good as yours. I'm only going down this road to humor the notion that Sakurai would add in Wavedashing in any way. And you don't know how much removing Wavedashing would effect Melee because you haven't played competitive Melee minus Wavedashing.

Do you really think Sakurai is just winging it with the mechanics and balance? First off, adding Wavedashing would alter the balance that he's working so hard on. And second, if it's hidden, that put an end to SSB's signature three button simplicity or add an anti-casual imput like a hadoken motion.

Let's just go over how silly it is to think Sakurai would add something like Wavedashing intentionally. Kirby's Dream Land was designed to let 'casuals' and 'hardcores' play it with mechanics like flying indefinitely and adjustable HP. Meteos is played entirely with the touch screen. Kirby Air Ride is a racing game played with one button. The only remotely complex thing Sakurai has ever added to a game is weapon fusion, but it pretty clearly wasn't supposed to be figured out. It still isn't. And you can still just go down the list to whip up something like my namesake weapon.

My point is, has Sakurai ever made any mechanic remotely important to the overall game for hardcores?

 

[D-idara]

You can't definitely know either. My word is as good as yours. I'm only going down this road to humor the notion that Sakurai would add in Wavedashing in any way. And you don't know how much removing Wavedashing would effect Melee because you haven't played competitive Melee minus Wavedashing.

Do you really think Sakurai is just winging it with the mechanics and balance? First off, adding Wavedashing would alter the balance that he's working so hard on. And second, if it's hidden, that put an end to SSB's signature three button simplicity or add an anti-casual imput like a hadoken motion.

Let's just go over how silly it is to think Sakurai would add something like Wavedashing intentionally. Kirby's Dream Land was designed to let 'casuals' and 'hardcores' play it with mechanics like flying indefinitely and adjustable HP. Meteos is played entirely with the touch screen. Kirby Air Ride is a racing game played with one button. The only remotely complex thing Sakurai has ever added to a game is weapon fusion, but it pretty clearly wasn't supposed to be figured out. It still isn't. And you can still just go down the list to whip up something like my namesake weapon.

My point is, has Sakurai ever made any mechanic remotely important to the overall game for hardcores?

Any unintuitive inputs should be removed, and if the technique's really THAT important, then it should be mapped to another set of intuitive commands for easier use and application. I'm pretty sure Melee would have a better metagame without wavedashing, but you people have made me hate Melee so my opinion doesn't count that much on that front. Slow/difficult mobility IS a way to balance characters, you know?

Also...who uses Staves...?

 

[LancerStaff]

Also...who uses Staves...?

>: (

 

[JediLink]

Also...who uses Staves...?

 

[Big-Cat]

My point is, has Sakurai ever made any mechanic remotely important to the overall game for hardcores?

What would be such a mechanic, hypothetically speaking.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Pics or it didn't happen

Pics? I played the damn thing. It did happen.

@ LancerStaff

No Sakurai wouldn't advertise such a thing, but skill gaps have very little to do with wave dashing, as a better player will win regardless of techniques implemented. Technical barriers only widen skill gaps when players are smart and capable of applying what they know. And for your own sake please stop trying to assume what Sakurai is going to do with the game; you sound like a sheep.

I'm dating myself saying this but I'll say it again. It doesn't matter if you know how to wavedash, if you wavedash into my Falcon Punch it's pretty much useless.

 

[Empyrean]

Any unintuitive inputs should be removed, and if the technique's really THAT important, then it should be mapped to another set of intuitive commands for easier use and application. I'm pretty sure Melee would have a better metagame without wavedashing, but you people have made me hate Melee so my opinion doesn't count that much on that front.

You have brought it upon yourself to hate Melee. No one here told you to do so, so please don't blame it on others. If you hate the competitive aspect of the game for personal reasons, then by all means, no one is trying to stop you. Also, keep in mind that the notion of "unintuitive inputs" is highly subjective. You may find wavedashing and L-cancelling to be unintuitive, but as it has been said in this thread repeatedly, for many, many others, it has become a matter of muscle memory and they perform these techniques naturally. With your mindset, one might be able to argue that rolling is unintuitive, and since it's such an important technique, it should be remapped to a button/set of buttons other than the Shield input. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting that part.

 

[nessokman]

Pics? I played the damn thing. It did happen.

@ LancerStaff

No Sakurai wouldn't advertise such a thing, but skill gaps have very little to do with wave dashing, as a better player will win regardless of techniques implemented. Technical barriers only widen skill gaps when players are smart and capable of applying what they know. And for your own sake please stop trying to assume what Sakurai is going to do with the game; you sound like a sheep.

I'm dating myself saying this but I'll say it again. It doesn't matter if you know how to wavedash, if you wavedash into my Falcon Punch it's pretty much useless.

Words don't count as pics. I'll say it again, pics or it didn't happen.

 

[LancerStaff]

What would be such a mechanic, hypothetically speaking.

Something complex but designed to be understood and is a central mechanic to the game. Wavedashing could be called that, but that's an opinion. I'm not Sakurai, I don't know where he draws the line on complexity. But it's pretty clear at this point what Sakurai thinks about Wavedashing.

 

[Big-Cat]

Give me a concrete example. Wavedashing is not a central mechanic to the game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Words don't count as pics. I'll say it again, pics or it didn't happen.

Dude, you're annoying. I don't have to prove **** to you. A better idea, why don't you stop being lazy and search yourself since you are so adamant about it. Google some E For All Brawl information, it's still floating around somewhere. Or are you here just to be annoying? Assuming it's the ladder, I'll reiterate, I don't have to prove **** to you.

@D-irada

Sorry to hear that, but that's your own problem. As a smash community we are all here to help each other improve in smash in one way or another, but when you continually reject others and continue to grasp on tunneled opinions you are just blaming others.

I have a question, have you ever tried to go to the Melee forums? If not I highly suggest you do before burning a bridge. Why not ask them why they like the game so much? Why not try to understand why you hate something?

 

[LancerStaff]

Give me a concrete example. Wavedashing is not a central mechanic to the game.

Wavedashing in project M.
Really though, I don't play complex games much. I basically stick to platformers and Nintendo games. I guess traditional fighters' combos could count, but that has more to do with remembering the imputs then an actual complex mechanic. Pokemon breeding and training definitely counts.

 

[nessokman]

Dude, you're annoying. I don't have to prove **** to you. A better idea, why don't you stop being lazy and search yourself since you are so adamant about it. Google some E For All Brawl information, it's still floating around somewhere. Or are you here just to be annoying? Assuming it's the ladder, I'll reiterate, I don't have to prove **** to you.

@D-irada

Sorry to hear that, but that's your own problem. As a smash community we are all here to help each other improve in smash in one way or another, but when you continually reject others and continue to grasp on tunneled opinions you are just blaming others.

I have a question, have you ever tried to go to the Melee forums? If not I highly suggest you do before burning a bridge. Why not ask them why they like the game so much? Why not try to understand why you hate something?

Giving a claim without proper evidence is a bit unprofessional. It is somewhat rude to make a claim and then say "Look it up yourself". That's almost like saying "Hey, I lied, but I'll send you on a hunt for it."

Way to be unprofessional...At least I provide links to back up my claims in regards to smash.

 

[Big-Cat]

Wavedashing in project M.
Really though, I don't play complex games much. I basically stick to platformers and Nintendo games. I guess traditional fighters' combos could count, but that has more to do with remembering the imputs then an actual complex mechanic. Pokemon breeding and training definitely counts.

Then I really can't take your claim of something being a complex mechanic. Combos aren't complex. They're entirely rhythmic.

 

[Ethereal_Sin]

Because people are lazy and want things over-simplified. This is why we ended up with brawl being a step backwards in that regard.

 

[LancerStaff]

Then I really can't take your claim of something being a complex mechanic. Combos aren't complex. They're entirely rhythmic.

They're pretty complex to a noob, and Pokemon counts.

But it's really not my opinion we're arguing about, it's Sakurai's. Wavedashing is the second most complex thing in one of Sakurai's games, and weapon fusion is first, if only to create a seemingly random process. Third most complex thing would probably be Smash and Kirby SS's controls, but you only need three buttons max. The guy prides himself on his games being simple. Do you really think he'd add back in the most complex thing he ever (if inadvertently) created to be understood?

Because people are lazy and want things over-simplified. This is why we ended up with brawl being a step backwards in that regard.

Question: Was SSB designed to be complex or simple from the start?

 

[Big-Cat]

Super Smash Bros. has only been simple in its basic inputs. Everyone knows there's considerable depth to the series. If anything, Sakurai streamlined aspects of the genre.

Take the reduced movelists. Using Tekken as an example, most characters use maybe 10-20 moves far more than any others. The Smash movesets boil down to the core assets for a playstyle. At least, that's the intention.

 

[Ethereal_Sin]

Question: Was SSB designed to be complex or simple from the start?

I think like all fighting games it was designed around a simple concept that was up to the participants to make complex if they chose to do so. This is why smash is playable by 6 years olds easily, but can get really hardcore and stay relevant for mature audiences. The advancement of ssbm was a fluke but it caught on and became one of the most high level fast paced competitive games of all time and is still a thing 13 years later. Just because something may have been intended to be simplistic doesn't mean that once people take it to a new level that it should be dumbed back down. Leave the tech skill there for those who want to utilize it and the items and things there for those who play for the lols.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think like all fighting games it was designed around a simple concept that was up to the participants to make complex if they chose to do so. This is why smash is playable by 6 years olds easily, but can get really hardcore and stay relevant for mature audiences. The advancement of ssbm was a fluke but it caught on and became one of the most high level fast paced competitive games of all time and is still a thing 13 years later. Just because something may have been intended to be simplistic doesn't mean that once people take it to a new level that it should be dumbed back down. Leave the tech skill there for those who want to utilize it and the items and things there for those who play for the lols.

It's still there.
In Melee.
I see no reason to complain about a fluke being removed in a future installment. Take the modifier transfer glitch from Kid Icarus for example. It's done nothing but good for the game, but everybody agrees it'll be removed if a sequel comes around.

 

[Ethereal_Sin]

It's still there.
In Melee.
I see no reason to complain about a fluke being removed in a future installment. Take the modifier transfer glitch from Kid Icarus for example. It's done nothing but good for the game, but everybody agrees it'll be removed if a sequel comes around.

But if the game is playable with the fluke present or not, why change it?

 

[JediLink]

This thread:

 

[LancerStaff]

But if the game is playable with the fluke present or not, why change it?

Because it clashes with the creator's ideals and only 1% of people would really even care if it was gone. I've argued this like five times in this thread alone, and I don't feel like explaining all of this again.

 

[Ethereal_Sin]

Because it clashes with the creator's ideals and only 1% of people would really even care if it was gone. I've argued this like five times in this thread alone, and I don't feel like explaining all of this again.

Then it can be dropped. I see what you're saying, we'll leave it at that.