The 8-Bit Ultimatum - A Mario Bros. Overview

[Steam]

anyone with good reflexes and a reflector is never going to lose on this stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

anyone with good reflexes and a reflector is never going to lose on this stage.

1. Run up to opponent.
2. Attack them without the use of hazards.
3. Attack with hazards while they are vulnerable.
4. ????
5. PROFIT!

 

[Steam]

1. Run up to opponent.
2. Attack them without the use of hazards.
3. Attack with hazards while they are vulnerable.
4. ????
5. PROFIT!

Not enough hitstun for that to really work :/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not enough hitstun for that to really work :/

It doesn't need to combo, Steam.

It's simple really, you can just get close to them, attack normally if they use a reflector, and attack with the hazards if they don't use the reflector.

It's like mixing up low and mid attacks in other fighting games.

 

[WindMajor]

saying that you can get around hazards being the reason they dont matter is ********. Its like saying you can get around attacks to win games, sure, its true but its definitely not going to happen at all...let alone consistantly

you're gonna get hit...and you wont be able to avoid it

hazards shouldn't be allowed period, but thats a whole different discussion

when people say they dont like it as the basis of wanting it banned...did you ever stop to think that they dont like it FOR A REASON?

Saying that you can get around hazards, but you want them gone anyways because you can get hit by them is dumb too. Players don't sidestep the problem, they fight it.

There are ways to get around them, and yes, I understand that people are going to get hit by them anyways. It's only expected. Then again, the possibility of getting hit shouldn't be a reason to get banned. Should we ban the IC grab infinites because you can get grabbed by the Ice Climbers? How about Delfino Plaza because of the possibility of getting chain grabbed to the walk-off? It's basically the same thing. You make one mistake, you lose a stock. It's a heavy price to pay for one mistake, but things like that aren't alien to competitive Brawl. People don't like it, but then again, we don't ban things because people don't like it, we ban things because they're undoubtedly unsuitable for gameplay.

 

[-LzR-]

I played this stage quite a lot yesterday. I noticed that Falco is clearly too powerful here. His reflector can be spammed, providing a constant reflection. His reflector also has a hitbox, beating every critter that tries to reach him by walking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I played this stage quite a lot yesterday. I noticed that Falco is clearly too powerful here. His reflector can be spammed, providing a constant reflection. His reflector also has a hitbox, beating every critter that tries to reach him by walking.

You can always go up and physically attack him, you know.

You can also bait his reflector and then throw a hazard at him during the cool-down.

 

[Ghostbone]

You can always go up and physically attack him, you know.

You can also bait his reflector and then throw a hazard at him during the cool-down.

Actually I'm pretty sure his reflector stays out during the entire move.

 

[-LzR-]

That is the point, there is like 1 frame where he doesn't reflect so he can spam it. Also the hitbox is that big that you have to jump over it which is kinda hard when there is the ceiling in the way. Also if he has a turtle in his hands it's a free kill after the reflector hits you. It resembles the same thing as let's say Dedede on Eldin. The risk/reward ratio is off the roof.

 

[Steam]

It doesn't need to combo, Steam.

It's simple really, you can just get close to them, attack normally if they use a reflector, and attack with the hazards if they don't use the reflector.

It's like mixing up low and mid attacks in other fighting games.

yes but you can see when people pick up items and it's quite easy to react to. This isn't like other 2D fighters where you can't really react quickly. you have plenty of time to react. Meanwhile characters without reflectors have to put themselves in a highly punishable position to simply avoid projectlies from anywhere, they might be screwed if the opponent has two projectlies nearby.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well, there is always.
Bait reflector.
Hit with normal move during cool down.
And it's only a free kill if it trips...(what's the percentage for that? doesn't it only work at lower percents as well?) and shouldn't you be able to DI and tech it anyway?
Might have to try Falco next time I play on this stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll test the over-poweredness of Falco/Pit when I next find someone to play against.

Thank god, finally a legitimate reason to ban this stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'll test the over-poweredness of Falco/Pit when I next find someone to play against.

Thank god, finally a legitimate reason to ban this stage.

Depends on how many characters are "over-powered"

If there's like 5-6 (fox,wolf,Falco,Pit,MK,perhaps Diddy as well? Lucas seems pretty good with PK thunder from a distance) then there's still a lot of versatility, and they're probably not that powerful compared to each other.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Depends on how many characters are "over-powered"

If there's like 5-6 (fox,wolf,Falco,Pit,MK,perhaps Diddy as well? Lucas seems pretty good with PK thunder from a distance) then there's still a lot of versatility, and they're probably not that powerful compared to each other.

Well, I don't think any other stage has only 6 viable characters.

 

[-LzR-]

No but really, his camp game is already strong enough. His lasers stop the items. Reflector has an active reflection hitbox and bounces them back with twice the strength, it's hard to survive such thing.

Yesterday, we played Falco against Rob on this stage. I have a turtle in my hand. I accidentally used sideB, Falco used shine, then the turtle got reflected back and forth many times, then it hit me, did like 200% and it was an instakill. That was awesome.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yesterday, we played Falco against Rob on this stage. I have a turtle in my hand. I accidentally used sideB, Falco used shine, then the turtle got reflected back and forth many times, then it hit me, did like 200% and it was an instakill. That was awesome.

lololol

I remember getting a waddle doo kill once, something like the energy that it fires kept the player stuck and the turtle kept hitting him, sooo funny.

But yea falco does sound very powerful.

 

[-LzR-]

Here we have our problem with the stage and why it should be banned: To win, everyone will switch to Falco which is overcentralizing part of the stage. We do not force everyone to have a pocket Falco to do well if this was to be legal. BAN!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

****ING FINALLY!

I'm gonna give this one last shot next time I meet up with Ghostbone and/or Apollo, if we can't prevent Falco's abuse, then this stage has served it's purpose.

 

[Ghostbone]

Pit's abuse > Falco's IMO

Just saying XD.

 

[-LzR-]

You can simply DI through Pit's abuse and then throw the shell from behind. Also, the SideB has a timelimit which you can wait out. Same for his downB. You can just wait and he has to stop the moves. BAM dead Pit.
Nothing is going to stop Falco.

 

[Life]

1. Run up to Falco
2. Shield the reflector
3. Normal attack during cooldown

.... sorry :/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. Run up to Falco
2. Shield the reflector
3. Normal attack during cooldown

.... sorry :/

Still, pretty risky :/

You know, risky like "approaching Dedede on Bride of Eldin" risky.

 

[-LzR-]

What attack are you going to use against Falco when you have an item in your hand?

 

[Raziek]

One can technically use an item-smash (see the Link technique "bomb-smashing"), but that still doesn't change the fact that if Falco is holding an item in HIS hand, he's either going to throw the item, or reflector yours.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I played this stage quite a lot yesterday. I noticed that Falco is clearly too powerful here. His reflector can be spammed, providing a constant reflection. His reflector also has a hitbox, beating every critter that tries to reach him by walking.

I said this earlier but people ignored me.

One can technically use an item-smash (see the Link technique "bomb-smashing"), but that still doesn't change the fact that if Falco is holding an item in HIS hand, he's either going to throw the item, or reflector yours.

To do this hold the A button down when you grab it, and hit the C stick left or right, ta da Bomb-Smashing.

 

[Life]

SHFF z-drop to aerial, or glide-toss through Falco, tossing the item behind you, into a grab or other attack?

Also, crawling characters have a way to do dtilt, it's in the Pika boards under the "infinite on Diddy Kong" thread.

 

[-LzR-]

So you are forced to use a character who has an fsmash that beats shine or a character who can crawl under it? Sounds overcentralizing to the same level as not picking a char who can be chaingrabbed by Dedede in Eldin.

 

[Life]

LzR, you clearly didn't read my post correctly. Characters can GT towards Falco (throwing the item whichever way they choose except forward), thus approaching itemless while Falco is in cooldown lag.

Characters with crawl don't have to crawl under the reflector, but crawling allows you to perform a dtilt while holding an item. (crouch-tilt forward slightly-A)

 

[-LzR-]

You do know the shine has a hitbox?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You do know the shine has a hitbox?

Not on it's return path iirc.

 

[Raziek]

It doesn't have a hitbox on the way back, but the reflector is still active. So glidetossing past it by throwing down WOULD work, but it's still a massive pain in the balls, and most characters have short glidetosses.

 

[napZzz]

it still shocks me people would actually consider this for competitive play

 

[WindMajor]

As much as I don't want it to be legal for standard competitive play, I can't help but feel that it is.

That's why I want someone to prove that it's broken in practice so bad.

 

[napZzz]

I dont think you really need to even practice to prove this isn't a legitimate stage....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

napZzz, considering the only thing you have contributed to this thread is
a) Saying that you can't believe people are considering this stage
and
b) The ridiculously flawed argument about hazards being over-powered.

Would you care to actually provide a legitimate argument as to why it shouldn't be legal?

We are currently settling on the "characters are too powerful here" argument, but you seem to have other gripes with the stage.

 

[napZzz]

its impossible to argue online,so I've basically given up (this is directed at any thread related to stages)

it seems everyone has a counterpoint to everything, regardless of how legitimate it is, so I'll save my time and just watch you dumb ****s argue over something so stupid. lmao

feel free to act conceited over me not giving a response, it clearly must mean you're right

 

[Grim Tuesday]

its impossible to argue online,so I've basically given up (this is directed at any thread related to stages)

it seems everyone has a counterpoint to everything, regardless of how legitimate it is, so I'll save my time and just watch you dumb ****s argue over something so stupid. lmao

feel free to act conceited over me not giving a response, it clearly must mean you're right

If you've given up arguing online, then would you kindly GTFO rather than calling us dumb ****s and spamming?

Thanks.

 

[Triple R]

So all I really got from skimming this thread was:
"You can't prove it's broken, so therefore it isn't broken."

Wow that sounds oddly familiar....

Oh yeah:
"You can't prove God doesn't exist, so therefore he does exist."

You guys have basically turned this into a religious debate lmao. Welcome to the world of bad logic and a never ending argument.

This argument will never end and this thread should be locked.


Too be real though, sometimes you just have to use common sense to come to a conclusion.

The answer is so obvious here.....

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It doesn't have a hitbox on the way back, but the reflector is still active. So glidetossing past it by throwing down WOULD work, but it's still a massive pain in the balls, and most characters have short glidetosses.

I have never heard anyone say this, but I feel Falco's shine is out from frame one and will continue to reflect until the very last frame of cooldown lag. With that in mind, Falco can SH/FH with his reflector out. With a continuous stream of reflection and the ability to move, so long as falco keeps his reflector out, I do not think there is any legitmate way to hit falco if you have an item on hand. Unless you can get around him to hit his blindsides.

 

[Alphicans]

So all I really got from skimming this thread was:
"You can't prove it's broken, so therefore it isn't broken."

Wow that sounds oddly familiar....

Oh yeah:
"You can't prove God doesn't exist, so therefore he does exist."

You guys have basically turned this into a religious debate lmao. Welcome to the world of bad logic and a never ending argument.

This argument will never end and this thread should be locked.


Too be real though, sometimes you just have to use common sense to come to a conclusion.

The answer is so obvious here.....

Pretty good post. This definitely doesn't apply to all stages, but mario bros is one of them.