The 3.5 Ganon Thread

[teluoborg]

So yeah let's hear every thing you've found in the new version, discuss new strategies and stuff.

[collapse=changelog]Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--Animations polished
--Outer hit trajectory raised from 32 to 361 (~45) degrees
--Inside hit trajectory still 32 degrees
--Interrupts frame 30 from 28
-Up Tilt
--Revised animation
--Rising hit lasts frames 5-11 from 3-12

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Warlock Punch aesthetic adapted from nB to F-smash
--Mostly aesthetic change, timing / hit stats / hit area unchanged
-Up Smash
--U-smash interrupts 5 frames later
--Animation decloned slightly, otherwise same stats

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--Startup reduced from 7 frames to 5 frames
--Interrupts frame 38 from 45
-Back Aerial
--New animation (stats unchanged)

Grabs
-Standing grab
--Moved in 1 unit to match Melee range
-Dash grab
--Travels further and grabs slightly lower on inner grab boxes
-Jump Squat reduced from 6 frames to 5 frames

Throws
-Forward Throw
--Throw damage 4 to 8 (9 to 13 total). Stronger and has a darkness effect.
-Back Throw
--Angle 45 to 58, BKB 35 to 30, and Endlag 27->17
-Down Throw
--KBG raised from 40 to 45

Specials
-Neutral Special (Dead Man’s Drift & Volley)
--Replaced Warlock Punch with Dead Man’s Drift & Volley
--Press B on the ground to "volley" projectiles back to the sender at 2x speed
--Press B once in the air to start floating, press B a second time to air Volley
--After a 14fr startup period you can interrupt float with Aerial Attacks or Double Jump
-Forward Special (Flame Choke)
--Fixed minor instances of Flame Choke being techable before final hit
--Finishing a match with Flame Choke results in a victory for Ganondorf
--Due to global ledge grab adjustments you must now hold back to reverse grab the ledge after a grounded Flame Choke
-Up Special (Dark Dive)
--Fixed electric graphics to properly align with opponent during Up-B throw
-Down Special (Wizard’s Foot)
--Ground to Air ending able to go into Special Landing (mostly aesthetic)
--Wall-impact rebound lag reduced from 60 to 40 frames

Others
-Rolls
--Updated with new magical aesthetic (stats unchanged)
-Spot dodge
--Updated with new magical aesthetic
--Spot dodge is faster, invuln 2-15 and interrupts 22
-Taunts
--Down Taunt can now be held to perform a sword attack. 37/35/33/31 DMG, 100 KBG, 40 BKB[/collapse]

Other things :
-dash attack won't make you fall off the edge.
-I find it way easier to do full length wavedashes and Dacus
-Dtaunt sword hit has super armor on the sword swing lmao
-New Fsmash can't be stutter stepped :/


Neutral B :
-the Volley (ground nB or air nB2) has a hitbox which does 5% with fixed knockback
-like the changelog said there's a 14 frames lag when you start hovering during which you can only Volley
-hovering keeps the horizontal momentum of your jump
-hovering can be B reversed and turned around, making it very useful to turn around in the air
-while hovering you can't do any specials save for Volley, you can't airdodge either
-you can cancel hover early by pressing down, you'll still have some lag before you can do any special
-you can only hover/volley once without touching the ground, and it's not refreshed by getting the ledge


Examples of things you can do with hover :
-When hanging on the ledge, turnaround B then double jump autocanceled Bair/Uair
-On the ground SH Bair/Uair and you can hover before touching the ground, meaning you can SH Bair to the right and turnaroung Bair to the left. Same for FH Fair Nair and Dair.

 

[CORY]

utilt still has the rear hitbox, but it no longer drags in for a guaranteed stomp. it might still lead to stomp on bad di.

afaik, all previous autocancels still work, so sh-bair-wl and sh-uair-wl are still totally viable.

JAB RESET WITH GROUNDED NEUTRAL B! GET AT IT! only seems to work if you do it immediately, though!

WE JAB RESETTING IN HERE!

 

[HiroProtagonist]

If I'm reading this right, not only is our grab range now shorter we also have less D-Throw Chaingrabs? At least WD out of shield is easier now...

 

[RelaxAlax]

I like what I see. Still trying my dangdest to implement float into my game. Its so great for waiting out recoveries, waiting for people on platforms, baiting rolls and even recovering. I mapped it to L and X and found L is the most natural feeling button for it. Still need some getting used to. Next time I stream I'll tell the Ganon thread so i can get pointers

Grab is still grab. I played today and it is not better at all. D-throw can be chaingrabed twice or so at low % before you need to follow up so gg chain grabs guys However, now it seems like f-throw and b-throw are buffed. Anyone see any use of it ?

Maybe they didn't improve it bc they wanted Ganon to keep his weaknesses? They did give him a great tool.

However I find the dead many volley to be awkward :/ probably just practise.

 

[CORY]

yeah, when i played with it the reflect wasn't so great. it was more useful as a reversal for big shots (samus/m2/lucario) and then you use hover to get around the other projectiles.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I like all the changes. Hover is great and provides a great mix up. Reflect is a bit wonky, the timing seems a bit to strict maybe I still need to get used to it.

But why is the grab range still horrible?!? Doesn't make any sense especially now that there are no long chain grabs with down throw... Please PMDT give him a good grab range and he will be perfect! There is really no point in having the grab range be so bad, Especially now!

Also why is it harder to hit with Utilt out of aerial FC? It's not like it was a guaranteed hit or anything before...

Super armor on sword is awesome really like that! Great for edge guarding.

Still hopeing that in future updates more and more of his moves get unique animations like Fsmash and Bair got. And just a nit-pick; I was hopeing for a air dodge that matches his rolls and standing dodge. Maybe next update?

 

[CORY]

yeah, now that his other dodge animations are all sparkly and ****, his airdodge does look a bit odd...

his utilt also doesn't make him "walk" anymore. like, pre3.5, you could utilt and move across the stage with it (slowly). now, you actually go back to where you started. don't think it's a buff or a nerf, it's just different and something to keep in mind.

 

[Anonistry]

yeah, when i played with it the reflect wasn't so great. it was more useful as a reversal for big shots (samus/m2/lucario) and then you use hover to get around the other projectiles.

That... actually sounds EXTREMELY lame, I am not going to lie. Its not like even Dorf had that big of issues with those, and even the next tier down in speed vs power he often had an answer due to how many ways he has to move and clank anything. I figured that this would have hopefully been setup to sort of use the window from a reflect to move in on the quicker yet still pushing projectiles. Like, get hit by falco laser, backhand, probably get hit by the next 1 or 2 that came out, but still have some time to move forward or else just make the future risk vs reward not in their favor.

Of course, hover being a special move is in the end just going to be a massive tool, I am willing to bet. But understand, and anyone who read my post in the Bowser forum or more detailed one in the Tier List thread will get this, I am REALLY sick and F-ing tired of anti-projectile moves not actually working to any significant degree in far too many games. If it is there, it should perform its use, and its use is to force the enemy to take a different kind of zoning tactic that will likely be somewhat more favorable to Ganondorf to manuever against. Being able to reflect the chargeballs is swag, but it doesn't actually help anything he needs helps with. In fact, hell, his old B with super armor and more reach like his new taunt actually could have at least done... I don't know, something, compared to what you just made his new B sound like.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

That... actually sounds EXTREMELY lame, I am not going to lie. Its not like even Dorf had that big of issues with those, and even the next tier down in speed vs power he often had an answer due to how many ways he has to move and clank anything. I figured that this would have hopefully been setup to sort of use the window from a reflect to move in on the quicker yet still pushing projectiles. Like, get hit by falco laser, backhand, probably get hit by the next 1 or 2 that came out, but still have some time to move forward or else just make the future risk vs reward not in their favor.

Of course, hover being a special move is in the end just going to be a massive tool, I am willing to bet. But understand, and anyone who read my post in the Bowser forum or more detailed one in the Tier List thread will get this, I am REALLY sick and F-ing tired of anti-projectile moves not actually working to any significant degree in far too many games. If it is there, it should perform its use, and its use is to force the enemy to take a different kind of zoning tactic that will likely be somewhat more favorable to Ganondorf to manuever against. Being able to reflect the chargeballs is swag, but it doesn't actually help anything he needs helps with. In fact, hell, his old B with super armor and more reach like his new taunt actually could have at least done... I don't know, something, compared to what you just made his new B sound like.

I agree the reflect is pretty poor and the timing on it is way too strict. Hopefully PMDT would be able to make it more akin to Mario's cape when it comes to the timing for reflecting.

I they fix that PLUS add a actually good grab range (something like Roy's range would do) Ganondorf would be 100% perfect imo. All they would need to do than is just spice up his moveset even more with newer animations and other cool stuff

 

[Anonistry]

Yeah, and its not like this suddenly busted Ganon or anything. Really it is a particular sticking point borne from my experience from other fighters. Its just... for God's sake, I KNOW the PMDT has it in them to figure it out.

Otherwise, not being a T-rex is always an admirable goal (Got to be the only time you can say that with a straight face.) I'm guessing you are generally concerned with it as a potential mixup against shield? That and I guess the threat of grab in general.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Yeah, and its not like this suddenly busted Ganon or anything. Really it is a particular sticking point borne from my experience from other fighters. Its just... for God's sake, I KNOW the PMDT has it in them to figure it out.

Otherwise, not being a T-rex is always an admirable goal (Got to be the only time you can say that with a straight face.) I'm guessing you are generally concerned with it as a potential mixup against shield? That and I guess the threat of grab in general.

In Ashingda's Ganondorf Triforce mod (where he gave Ganon the use of his sword and magic) he increased the grab range by a nice amount and it doesn't seem broken or abusable at all imo... Maybe they can just "borrow" what he did (he also made the grab his left hand) I think it would just make Ganon that much more dangerous when your in "his space" but not be unreasonable at all. as it stands now with the Down throw not chaining any longer I see not reason as to why the grab range not being good.

 

[White Light]

Ganon's new backhand is baller. King of Darkness don't want no projectiles, get them outta here. Fair and bootstomp for days, and now I can do it after hovering menacingly. New GDorf is based.

 

[Magus420]

While the standing grab was slightly reduced to melee, that goes also with being able to ASDI in shield to get closer. When not in shield his dash grab goes a bit further, and boost grabbing it goes a good amount further than JC grab.

 

[Taytertot]

I'm curious if theres anyway to combo volley into anything or to at least to use to damage opponents in a useful way. It seems like no matter what, it is really just a projectile reflect. If anyone has figure out a use I'd love to know. Hover is pretty cool though. I havent been able to fully use it yet but it definitely gives ganon more options.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

While the standing grab was slightly reduced to melee, that goes also with being able to ASDI in shield to get closer. When not in shield his dash grab goes a bit further, and boost grabbing it goes a good amount further than JC grab.

That's cool and all, and can be of great use. But Ganon OoS grab is the problem having that be somewhat decent would be nice. ASDI is great but all characters can use it even some with great grab ranges already like Marth. I trust the PMDT to do what they think is best and if Ganon must remain with T-Rex arms so be it. But I truley believe he can use a better standing grab (his running grab can stay the same, it's just the OoS grab that need to be better to deal with sheild pressure better).

 

[Shell]

There are several reasons why we haven't upped his grab range yet..

The biggest reason is that he has arguably the best throw in the game (D-throw), even with the +5 KBG in it for v3.5. Amazing setups into killer smashes and aerials and pretty much anything you could want. So he's got this close range frame 7 grab with huuge reward and then he also has a longer range option via the frame 11 Up-B OoS, which is essentially a tether grab with moderate reward.

At the moment both of these options have good usage niches, especially if there are platforms above to give Ganondorf a mixup on his Up-B cooldown. This setup of small but extremely rewarding standing grab plus longer rang special grab is relatively unique among the cast. Extending the standing grab range would upset the balance between those options, homogenize him further, and feed his stellar D-throw maybe a bit more than we'd like.

With that said Ganondorf has always had really great rolls, and as of v3.5 he has been bumped up to the fastest tier of spot dodge in the game, invuln 2-15, IASA 23. These defensive OoS options don't necessarily provide a counterattack that puts Ganondorf on the offensive but they do nevertheless help significantly to diffuse pressure.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

There are several reasons why we haven't upped his grab range yet..

The biggest reason is that he has arguably the best throw in the game (D-throw), even with the +5 KBG in it for v3.5. Amazing setups into killer smashes and aerials and pretty much anything you could want. So he's got this close range frame 7 grab with huuge reward and then he also has a longer range option via the frame 11 Up-B OoS, which is essentially a tether grab with moderate reward.

At the moment both of these options have good usage niches, especially if there are platforms above to give Ganondorf a mixup on his Up-B cooldown. This setup of small but extremely rewarding standing grab plus longer rang special grab is relatively unique among the cast. Extending the standing grab range would upset the balance between those options, homogenize him further, and feed his stellar D-throw maybe a bit more than we'd like.

With that said Ganondorf has always had really great rolls, and as of v3.5 he has been bumped up to the fastest tier of spot dodge in the game, invuln 2-15, IASA 23. These defensive OoS options don't necessarily proved a counterattack that puts Ganondorf on the offensive but they do nevertheless help significantly to diffuse pressure.

I see your point. Thank you so much for the detailed response. I hadn't realized that the rolls and dodge are that fast now and you are right that would help a lot.

Like I said before I fully trust you guys whatever you guys think is best is usually is the right thing for the character/game, thanks for all the hard work!

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Also since your already answering questions @ Shell

Could you please indulge me with a few more?

- are there any future plans to further tweak and/or change Ganon's animation to make him even more different than Falcon? Like what you guys did with Bair, Fsmash and Uptilt
Would down smash and up smash be getting unique animations also? How about the animation after the grab on Up-B? etc.
- Nit-pick of mine is the Up smash especially... Was it even considered giving it a totally unique animation?
- another popular request was to change down smash to the OoT ground punch, any plans like that?

If those are planed I guess you can't answer these questions... Hey it doesn't hurt to ask right?

Btw- I'm f***ing loving all the unique animations/moves Ganon got and it only makes me excited for more! So please excuse me if it seems like in prying...

 

[Bazkip]

Uhh @ _Ganondorf_ he did get a new upsmash animation. Though it is pretty similar to what it was before.

In other news, I may be late on this but I was able to confirm something that I had suspected but wasn't sure about thanks to stamina no blastzones mode. Did anyone know you're able to influence your fall when you've grabbed someone with aerial Flame Choke?

It won't make any difference when grabbing someone just above the ground, but I believe off a side platform or just in the air near the edge it could be altered enough to either result in a ganoncide or that situation where you land onstage but they don't, when otherwise one of those wouldn't have happened.

I don't know for certain if this can actually make any practical difference, but it's still worth looking into. At the very least, it's absolutely hilarious to Ganoncide someone forever in the no blastzone mode.

 

[Bazkip]

Actually now that I think about it I doubt it'll be usable with any finesse. Likely will just boil down to: Are you going for a Ganoncide? Hold away from the stage. Else, hold towards the stage.

Anyone try out the new b/fthrows? Totally forgot to try them cause dthrow is just so ingrained in my mind, other than one time when I killed someone with fthrow off the Smashville platform. Pretty awesome lol.

I'm also wondering about the two "mostly aesthetic" changes listed, with fsmash and Wiz Foot. What about those changes aren't aesthetic?

 

[Scuba Steve]

I just posted this in the social thread, but realized it would probably be more appropriate here.


I actually switched to Falcon a few months back because I was having more fun playing as him, but after playing some 3.5 Ganon, I'm starting to question whether I can resist maining Ganon again.I haven't had this much fun playing Ganon in a long time. I ****ing love all the changes so far.

The new landing detection feels great while wavelanding around the stage and it's even allowed me to do reverse ledge dashes with Ganon, which I was never able to do in 3.0.

Ganon's shorter jumpsquat feels great and gives Ganon a slight extra boost in speed while retaining his waveland centric style of movement. Wavedashing OoS is now a better option as well because of this.

Speaking of WD'ing OoS, it feels much better to do now because you can now use both triggers at the same time. So basically how you could in Melee. For me, I struggled with WD OoS way longer than any of the other tech I have under my belt, but this change just made it significantly easier for me.

GANON GOT A BETTER SPOTDODGE. HOLY ****. Practically every tweak that I hoped for was put in. Ganon's spotdodge now has identical frame data as the spacies to give you an idea of how it feels. DID I ALSO MENTION THAT IT LOOKS COOL AS ****? I'm not sure if the frame data on the rolls were changed, but they got the same treatment and really remind you that this guy is indeed a warlock and not just some guy with green skin who punches people.

The general animation tweaks he received are great too and the new skins just make me feel like I'm being spoiled at this point.

The sword ****ing rules. 'Nuff said

Hover might be my favorite change to Ganon. It gives Ganon more options in unique ways, while still keeping the same feel of the Ganon that we know in love. Using hovers to threaten and wall people out is immensely satisfying. Hover even gives recovery mixups and can help Ganon come down from being above opponents. One of my favorite new uses of hover is using it for super deep edgeguards that Ganon wasn't capable of before. Nothing feels better than chasing a spacey offstage and hover fairing them right before they can side-b back on.

The nerfs to everybody else is above and beyond what I could have hoped for Ganon's future in 3.5, but his future now looks brighter than ever. All hail the PMDT for 3.5, mad Ganon love went into this update

 

[teluoborg]

@ Shell what about that vertical range though ? Is it a vonluntary decision that a lot of small characters can simply pass below Ganon's grab even if they don't space at all ? Are things like Pika's dash attack or Wario's Nair or any of Kirby's moves supposed to be impossible to grab ?

Ditto on the Air wizkick lack of foot hitbox : is there a reason for it to be that way ?

I may seem ungrateful but don't misunderstand, the work you guys put in is awesome and the above points are minor flaws in Ganon's gameplay that I thought would've been fixed before the implementation of a hover AND a projectile reflector.

 

[Yoki]

Wizkick is a powerful lingering spike that travels far and refreshes your double jump, anything but the large negative disjoint it currently has would make it a ridiculously broken edgeguarding tool. Agreed on the unnecessarily matchup dependent vertical grab range, though, no reason to give small characters an arbitrary advantage in this matchup.

 

[Rikter]

Is there any particular reason the melee Ganondorf alt uses the Execution Sword instead of the thing he used in one victory pose in melee? It's a very minor thing but it feels so strange every time I see it.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Ganon mains, I say this bc I love you.

We're all still Ganons. Just bc we got buffs and the majority go nerfs doesn't mean we're better then everyone. I mean we're better than before, and we have tools, but we've got our work cut out for us.

Also, be creative with hover. Find out if your a person to use it sparringly or all the time and fit it into your playstyle

 

[Scuba Steve]

When will you babies stop complaining about aerial wizkick not being stupid?

 

[RelaxAlax]

When will you babies stop complaining about aerial wizkick not being stupid?

Thats a weird double negative.

Its great for faking out edge cancels, and now with hover it can be explore further. But it can be crap if you want to actually hit people, and quake is unchanged I believe, so at best its a wonky/stylish option.

Its ok though, bc I understand the game design they're going for with 3.5. Except Fox that's dumb and I've never liked his cocky ass.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I feel like grab release points make D-throw as good, maybe better, than it's ever been.

@ Shell , @ Magus420 , can confirm, or am I crazy?

 

[CORY]

Uhh @ _Ganondorf_ Did anyone know you're able to influence your fall when you've grabbed someone with aerial Flame Choke?

It won't make any difference when grabbing someone just above the ground, but I believe off a side platform or just in the air near the edge it could be altered enough to either result in a ganoncide or that situation where you land onstage but they don't, when otherwise one of those wouldn't have happened.

I don't know for certain if this can actually make any practical difference, but it's still worth looking into. At the very least, it's absolutely hilarious to Ganoncide someone forever in the no blastzone mode.

Actually now that I think about it I doubt it'll be usable with any finesse. Likely will just boil down to: Are you going for a Ganoncide? Hold away from the stage. Else, hold towards the stage.

you pretty much answered your own question. i've been using the slight angling forever. if you're near max flamechoke range and force a tech/roll into the ledge, you can pull back and land the stage and throw them down, or hold forward and go for broke on a ganoncide (more useful as you get higher, to a certain point, with different ranges that they're standing at also affecting it, obviously).

and i can pretty reasonably say what i've always said about the wizkick hitbox, because i'm quoting the pmdt's own line on it: if an attack moves your character forward and/or down very rapidly, they're going to put the hitbox back behind the hurtbox because it gets to be unreasonable to deal with in most cases. see: wario's shoulderbash, ganon's flamechoke, metaknight's dair (apparently only pre3.5? i think they changed it entirely?). i remember the specific example of wario's shoulderbash being mentioned from when they would do streams of their devbuild stuff and i think it was strongbad specifically saying that during testing almost nothing could deal with a "properly" placed hitbox of shoulderbash, and that move didn't spike or refresh his jumps, as yoki stated.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Can someone explain the new DACUS timing to me? I just can't get it consistently.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I think it's just tighter than before. Whereas before we had a longer period to input it, now we've gotta be quicker and more consistent.

I set Special to Z so now I don't have it in my arsenal, not sure how I feel about that.

 

[CORY]

Can someone explain the new DACUS timing to me? I just can't get it consistently.

you have a 2frame window, which is a little shorter than we previously had (i honestly don't know the specifics of how it worked previously. once i learned that dacus was going to be a universal window i just stopped messing with and figuring out pre3.5 mechanics on it...).

personally, pre3.5, i would almost mash out the dash-cstickdown-up+z inputs, but just slightly space them. now, i feel like i almost have to hit dash+cstickdown then up+z right back to back.

 

[RelaxAlax]

^ Exactly this.

I mean i think it isn't so bad you just have to be more strict. I think it's a good trade now that we have easier/better wavelands and wavedashes and rewards players with the skill to use it. To be fair, it was fairly easy to shoot out in 3.02 compared to other techniques and others DACUS'

 

[IcyLight]

I miss 3.02 DACUS. It was crazy OP for tech chasing because of how easy it was to throw out xD

 

[Purple Stuff]

The new DACUS timing does throw you off initially. You'll eventually get the timing down again. I've actually started to get it more consistently now, after I discovered that you don't have to have the control stick pointing all the way up. You can input dash + Z at around 1or 2 o'clock on the control stick, and you'll hit DACUS.

 

[RelaxAlax]

The new DACUS timing does throw you off initially. You'll eventually get the timing down again. I've actually started to get it more consistently now, after I discovered that you don't have to have the control stick pointing all the way up. You can input dash + Z at around 1or 2 o'clock on the control stick, and you'll hit DACUS.

So, I know you'll appreciate this, but it seems with the new hit detection, landing the first frame quake of Wiz Foot is no more.

You can still do it from under platforms onto them though. Just I don't think you can anywhere. And it stinks bc with Debug mode you can see the single frame of where you need to hit it.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I'm away from home atm and didn't know about fthrow getting buffed. Do we know the knockback numbers on it, or does anyone just know how MUCH stronger it is?

 

[CORY]

i never think to use it ;x the dthrow-followup mentality is too strong in me.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Sames. I did it once though. It was actually ... good.

 

[Spralwers]

depending on your opponent and/or percentages, your only follow up out of dthrow will be upair (or nothing at all), which might not send your opponent at as punishable of an angle as you want. this is when you fthrow. or if you know your opponent can DI onto a platform and you dont want a tech chase. On smaller stages past 100% near the ledge this can actually be a kill throw. just go into practice mode, vary the percentages of the CPU and use the fthrow. See for yourself. It's incredible. It's so good. You could definitely compare it with Peach's fthrow, but I think Dorf's sends at a more horizontal angle.