The 3.5 Ganon Thread

[Yanoss1313]

moonwalk to b-reversed hover is fun

I still haven't worked out moon-walking consistently. >.<

 

[Scuba Steve]

Picking up Falcon inspired me to finally learn to do it. It's really just a tech that you learn through raw practice. There's no trick to learn it, you just have to do the movement faster and faster. Try doing them after you take a stock in friendlies. That's how I've practiced 95% of my tech skill

 

[Taytertot]

I havent been able to get use of hover as a recovery move yet

 

[Taytertot]

what about wavebounced hover? I think that would have some very useful an interesting applications. Especially for mindgames. (hope I didnt double post because something went wrong when I tried to post)

 

[adlp]

I havent been able to get use of hover as a recovery move yet

example on dreamland: get knocked to top right corner, jump, wiz foot, jump, float, sweet spot up b. so satisfying

 

[CORY]

i feel like using float to recover means you need to use it first most of the time. the fact that you slowly fall during it means you want more height when you start it, and the fact that you can't use a special move (ie, recovery moves ;x) for about 14 frames after you cancel it means you want to use it sparingly next to the stage. there's always going to be exceptions, but that's my general "rule of thumb" after my opening weekend smashfest experiences...

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Float is amazing for recovery! It's insane, actually. We have at least a decent recovery now!

Basically, unless you're above stage and close, only ever float if you have a jump, or else the height you lose off float before you up-B will likely get you killed. You are in control of where you recover now in more situations than ever before, the mix-up is practically infinite compared to what we had before!

I'm quite giddy about it, as you can see. ****'s insane.

 

[Electric Tuba]

You basically use float like Marth's side-b or any other stall move. It's so good, his recovery is muuuuch better now because of it.

B reverse/turnaround hover is all right, in my opinion, I don't see it getting a ton of use. You might be able to catch your opponent off guard once or twice, but the momentum shift is really not that amazing for practical purposes. Pretty swaggy though

 

[Sovereign]

Hungry said it right. You really don't want to hover unless you can jump out of it. The fact that we get a jump back from Wiz Kicking makes it so much easier to mix up recovery options.

Also, hover approaches that are low to the ground are amazing.

 

[batistabus]

I've decided I like float. It's an interesting way to mix up your approach.

As for cape...has anyone been getting a lot of use out of it? I'll admit I haven't used it very many times, but I don't think I've ever used it successfully. Will it activate instantly with a double-tap of B in the air? Or is there an amount of lag time before it can register?

 

[Spralwers]

dthrow upsmash. I got so many kills with these in bracket and friendlies on weight classes like Marth, Mario, and Link. DI proof too. If they DI'd behind me, either a turn around or dash dance back into upsmash covered that option. If they DI'd in front, either a walk forward or a dash forward covered the distance.

Also, past like 80%, fsmash has crazy knockback. Especially if you can charge it a little. I closed a set against a Link player by punishing up B landing lag with a waveland onto the stage followed by a slightly charged fsmash. Hit him at like 100%, died off the top.

I did struggle a ton against a campy Diddy, and counter picked with Marth ftw. But hopefully I'll figure out how to use Ganon's new tools to get by those playstyles.

 

[CORY]

I've decided I like float. It's an interesting way to mix up your approach.

As for cape...has anyone been getting a lot of use out of it? I'll admit I haven't used it very many times, but I don't think I've ever used it successfully. Will it activate instantly with a double-tap of B in the air? Or is there an amount of lag time before it can register?

from what shell's said previously, you can hover-slap almost instantly in the air (unlike the other options out of it). there's a 3 frame startup before you begin to reflect, then it's active til... frame 16 or 18?

 

[Bazkip]

So what's the best way to punish tether recoveries now? Is there enough time to waveland onstage -> pivot ftilt? Or perhaps jump onstage -> upsmash? Is it possible for ledgedrop -> uair onstage to hit them back offstage or will that just send them further on stage? Flame choke them and follow up? Or can we just ignore the laggy tether ledgehop completely and just float dair them before they even get up?

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[Spralwers]

I think punishing tethers can be flow charted. If you can intercept the tether with something like uair or bair, I think that's the best option always. It'll take the stock. But if you can't, or don't feel confident in it, the next best option is to get the forced tether jump and work from there. You can literally just wait for the forced tether jump because tethers can't be canceled now.

When they do the forced tether jump, they still have the option to drift forward onto the stage, or away from the ledge. If you can read that they're going to land on the stage, that opens your punish options considerably. Drifting distance has been reduced drastically, so you don't have to worry about someone drifting way out onto the stage and needing to waveland to catch them.

There's a good amount of end lag when landing the forced tether jump. If you haven't already, do a forced tether jump and land on the stage. See for yourself how much lag there is. I mean it's not terribly laggy, Ganon's uptilt probably won't punish it, but if you combine the ending lag with knowledge ahead of time that they will land on stage, that gives you tons of time to land the right move (which could be uptilt).

I think the optimal punishes will be very dependent on percents and character weight. If you can land a killing move, do it, otherwise go for a combo that once again forces the tetherer off the stage. Take Link. If I can read that he will land on stage, but he's at like 30%, I'll just go for a dthrow cg. But if he's at like 80, I'd go for up aimed fsmash, or dthrow usmash, or dthrow fair. Up aimed fsmash would be my goto option as a kill move esp if I can charge it a little, the move's power grows ridiculously with even slight charging and the knockback growth gets scary at high percents.

If they drift away from the stage and try to catch the ledge, just wait on the ledge. They won't actually be able to attack for a while. Like they won't be able to attack until they've fallen well below you. Then just follow regular edgeguarding procedures if you're hanging on the ledge and intercepting someone trying to recover from straight below. Now if the opponent is say, Ivy or ZSS, with special move tether, they can still tether one more time, so just wait and repeat any of the above.

 

[Bazkip]

Oh damn didn't even think about grabbing them out of it. Pivot grab -> fthrow could definitely be a good option now at high percent.

 

[Yanoss1313]

So what's the best way to punish tether recoveries now? Is there enough time to waveland onstage -> pivot ftilt? Or perhaps jump onstage -> upsmash? Is it possible for ledgedrop -> uair onstage to hit them back offstage or will that just send them further on stage? Flame choke them and follow up? Or can we just ignore the laggy tether ledgehop completely and just float dair them before they even get up?

depending on percentage i either go for Uair to send them back, or Fair to sent them forward.... waaaay forward.

Edit, thats on the forced edge hop, forgot to clarify <.<

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

d-taunt is riDONKulous for edgeguarding characters who cant sweetspot well.
Characters such as ness an lucas up'b ,g&w, wolf, and basically anyone who cant just auto snap like how tethers do.
honestly that **** kills at like 40% percent and has armor, there's no way its's not gonna be removed or heavily nerfed next patch.

 

[CORY]

Also, past like 80%, fsmash has crazy knockback. Especially if you can charge it a little. I closed a set against a Link player by punishing up B landing lag with a waveland onto the stage followed by a slightly charged fsmash. Hit him at like 100%, died off the top.

so, changelog says that the hit stats of fsmash are the same, so have we just been sleeping on fsmash HARD this whole time?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

so, changelog says that the hit stats of fsmash are the same, so have we just been sleeping on fsmash HARD this whole time?

Yes.

While the move is certainly situational, there's really not a better way for us to quickly launch someone who is on the ground or low in the air into space due to the high and awkward hitboxes on up-smash.

Also, the move lands more often if you yell "KARATE!" as you charge it. True story.

 

[CORY]

i'll keep that in mind.

do bruce lee noises, in general, work, too?

 

[Spralwers]

Well fsmash doesnt get too much use in melee since there's a lot of MUs with fast fallers who are also very fast (spacies, falcon), and the other non fast fallers like peach and marth generally don't give you enough end lag to use fsmash outside a hard read.

fsmash isn't actually that good against FFers (as a kill move) until you get to like 95-100%.

But against semi FFers and everyone else, man it's scary. You wanna aim it up, because it has an almost completely vertical trajectory (80 degrees) and for some reason deals more damage. You can very easily kill characters like Mario off the top at like 90% on stages like dreamland lol. It's actually better at killing off the top than Fox's current upsmash. Ganon's has more base knockback and a little less knockback growth, but it deals crazy damage (24) and that more than makes up for it lol. And if you can charge it just a little bit... omg it's scary.

Also Ganon has a good boost grab, thanks to dash grab buffs. Gonna try to work that into my game too.

 

[Taytertot]

Anyone find a good setup from the D-taunt kill? It seems like if you can time it right on someone offstage it works pretty well. The great thing is that it takes about as long as his original Neutral B but has a much better/ longer hitbox and has armor! legit way to get early kills. Does anyone know what kind of armor (light,medium,heavy or super) it has btw?

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

i'll keep that in mind.

do bruce lee noises, in general, work, too?

Well, general Bruce Lee noises are really good for opening up your opponent in neutral.

Frankly, the spirit of Bruce Lee is better for getting past projectile walls than Ganondorf's reflector.

 

[Electric Tuba]

On the subject of punishing tethers, Olimar is pitifully easy to take advantage of. His tether doesn't even have a hitbox, so with Bowser you can just grab the edge, wait for the forced hop, then backjump on stage to grab him with klaw and throw him off again every time

I haven't tested anything, but I think Ganon could just hop on stage and grab for dthrow>upsmash/anything else to kill, or waveland on stage for a pivot grab to throw him off with forward throw. Back throw works too, but your opponent might be able to recovery high, which is no fun

 

[Spralwers]

Oh so I was testing out Ganon's fsmash in melee and he can't aim it up or down. So the almighty up aimed fsmash is only a PM thing.

 

[Bazkip]

Oh so I was testing out Ganon's fsmash in melee and he can't aim it up or down. So the almighty up aimed fsmash is only a PM thing.

Well it was in Brawl.
But Ganon was hardly in Brawl so you're pretty much still correct.

Also angling it didn't change it's damage in Brawl was was odd, angling usually does.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Oh so I was testing out Ganon's fsmash in melee and he can't aim it up or down. So the almighty up aimed fsmash is only a PM thing.

You can angle some f-smashes in Melee, including Ganondorf's; however, the window for angling them is just stupidly tight. I forget the exact figures, but you need very precise angles for it.

 

[Taytertot]

I was trying this combo out against yoshi and was wondering if someone could confirm whether it works or not as a CPU yoshi doesnt always pick the option that actually saves him from continued combos. I was using down throw chain until about 30% (give or take a bit) which I then continued it into down throw to dair to tech chase grab to down throw to dair etc. which eventually got to the point where I'd have to full hop dair and then eventually to DJ dair until around 150ish% when I down threw to bair finisher. Is this guaranteed assuming the correct tech chase reads or did the CPU decide to be an idiot?

I couldn't do it consistently but my technical skills arent the best so I wasnt sure if my timing was just off sometimes and that gave yoshi a chance to nair or if that isnt a legit combo

 

[Electric Tuba]

With yoshi you've got to look for him double jumping out of your combos, not so much throwing out aerials. See if you can do it with hitboxes turned on so you can see if he stays in hitstun. If you're testing specific percentages, go into solo training mode.

That said, if you have to double jump after a down throw I really doubt the hitstun is long enough.

 

[Dimir]

In regards to the D-throw changes: The new KBG may make some chaingrabs escapable at lower percentages, but it also makes the d-throw chaingrab vs space animals easier. At least for me it feels easier.

My favourite change is actually just the overall physics of PM 3.5. Wavedashing/wavelanding is much smoother now, and I find wavelanding to be such a huge part of Ganon's game.

 

[Taytertot]

that makes sense.

 

[Ace55]

I was trying this combo out against yoshi and was wondering if someone could confirm whether it works or not as a CPU yoshi doesnt always pick the option that actually saves him from continued combos. I was using down throw chain until about 30% (give or take a bit) which I then continued it into down throw to dair to tech chase grab to down throw to dair etc. which eventually got to the point where I'd have to full hop dair and then eventually to DJ dair until around 150ish% when I down threw to bair finisher. Is this guaranteed assuming the correct tech chase reads or did the CPU decide to be an idiot?

I couldn't do it consistently but my technical skills arent the best so I wasnt sure if my timing was just off sometimes and that gave yoshi a chance to nair or if that isnt a legit combo

Unless you dair them close to the ground you probably can't get a regrab of it even if you read the tech, especially if they tech away, probably something else, but not a grab.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

they try to DI in to avoid getting hit offstage by a d-throw follow up, you can bthrow and the inward DI will keep them close enough for a follow up.

Scrub question here, but I really don't understand the concept of DIing "in" or "out"- I thought that DI only influenced the direction of your trajectory and not your actual distance travelled? Is there something I'm missing here? I understand the concept in practice (I've missed the DI out on so many Marth throws that the tippers have crammed it into my brain) but not really the theory behind it. Could someone explain? I suppose it might have something to do with greater vertical drop increase on more horizontal angles but I really don't quite get it...

 

[Electric Tuba]

"In" being used to say toward the character, "out" being away from the character. Includes normal DI and Smash DI. Does that make sense?

 

[Scuba Steve]

When people say to DI something in a direction, it just means what direction you're holding the control stick toward when hitlag is over (hitlag being the little freeze every time a hit is landed, very noticeable on moves like dair). You're correct in that DI only changes the trajectory of the launch rather than reduce knockback distance.

I feel like this thread on reddit is a good read for learning how DI works
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1pgo1x/the_importance_of_di/

 

[Yanoss1313]

What i never understood was, what was the deal with vectoring in smash 4? how did that work?... guess it doesn't matter since they Patched it over to DI the other day anyway. <.<

Edit: atleast that's what i heard

 

[homesuck]

it was like a super dumbed down di+. you held the direction you wanted to go and your character would go in that direction, affecting both the launch angle and distance. you could vector away at low percents to avoid combos and vector in at high percents to live longer

image source: reddit user lumenebrae

 

[Yanoss1313]

it was like a super dumbed down di+. you held the direction you wanted to go and your character would go in that direction, affecting both the launch angle and distance. you could vector away at low percents to avoid combos and vector in at high percents to live longer

image source: reddit user lumenebrae

oooooooh, now it all makes perfect sense!