The 2006-2008 Tier list

[StripesOrBars]

Anyone ever notice that Sheik players usually have subs, whereas Peach players often do not?

Peach has no solid counter.

 

[Bones0]

Or it's cause Sheik is so easy to use they have time to work on another character. >.> jk People seem to overestimate tiers I think. Just because you are using a lower tier character doesnt mean you WILL lose, you probably just need more practice. Im not talking about Ken's level or anything like that because tiers matter a lot more the better the competition is.

 

[MookieRah]

AzN_Lep: The question that you need to ask is how often did they use sheik, whom they used sheik against, and etc. Then you would have to compare that to all the Marth/Fox(or /Falco/Sheik/etc) from other major tournaments such as FC, SAVII, and many many other large 100+ tournaments that I can't think of at the moment.

 

[NDigighost]

Saying M2K is a shiek player is like saying Vidjo is a fox player. KDJ probably didn't use his fox in the high brackets.

This is the american tier list, so I removed to japanese.
Lets look at the OC top 8 without bias:

1. Ken - Marth, a little fox.
2. Chu - Ice Climbers
3. M2K - Fox
4. KDJ - Fox, a little shiek
5. The KING - Jigglypuff
8. PC Chris - Falco/Fox (He didn't use Marth on OC?)
8. Rob$ - Falco - I never saw him play shiek, are you sure?
8. DSF - Sheik

Had Azen been there, DSF would have been shoved out.


Now, MLG Chicago top 8 (I didn't bother looking for an example, just went with the most recent MLG:
1st – Ken - Marth, a little fox
2nd – ChuDat - IC's
3rd – Mew2King - Fox
4th – Azen - Marth, a little shiek.
5th – PC Chris - Falco, Marth, Fox (Those are all I saw)
6th – Chillin - Fox
7th – KoreanDJ - Fox, Don't think he went shiek up high.
8th – Isai - CF, Shiek.

The amount of shieks and marths are even except marth's place way more impressivly.

 

[Mud Buddha]

I don't really agree with this list. I mean, not many characters have actually moved very far. But this tier list is based mostly on tournament results, which, as far as I'm concerned, makes it largely inaccurate. There will obviously be similarities, as the previous list was very accurate. But where some of the characters are less well represented it becomes skewed.

I'll always consider the previous list as the greatest. It's because of when it was released. It was far enough into the game's life so that the metagame had been tested almost to it's limit, but not too late (like this one) where people have given up on taking up new characters, and people are more interested in when Brawl is coming out.

But whatever, this is just what one man thinks about the situation. Not the list.

On the list: Fox is certainly the best. But there is no need for a High tier. Group top with high. They aren't THAT much better. 10% of people have 90% execution, and counter strategies often stare you in the face.

Marth and Shiek should swap. The time is long gone where you can just pick Shiek and win. People have developed ways around Shiek. However, she still lays serious fist and foot on most of the other characters with the regular tricks.

Also, Falco below Marth. Marth is just that much more solid than Falco. By which I mean, an average player's performance is much more consistent.

Luigi belongs in Middle tier. If Mario can be placed as such, Luigi certainly can. Luigi is less consistent than Mario is however. It’s a bit of a gamble sometimes.

Samus is higher than Ice Climbers and Falcon. There’s SO much of a margin for error with Samus. Where other characters would’ve lost a stock, Samus has two, three, maybe four more chances.

Jigglypuff below Doctor Mario and Ice Climbers is bull****. Jigglypuff is, essentially a toned down Samus. The light weight and the shakier offence puts her below Falcon however.

Ganondorf should return to his original position between Mario and Doc. He’s always got more options than Mario in many situations. But is just not strong enough to “de-throne” Doc.

The characters in low tier are in the right place I feel. However, Yoshi should be bumped up from Bottom along with Ness. There’s not much I can say. I just think their advantages are a lot more significant than people think.

Finally, Pichu will always be worse than Mewtwo. There's no two ways about it. Everything that Mewtwo has against him Pichu has worse.

Top Tier:
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik
Peach

Middle Tier:
Samus
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Doctor Mario
Ganondorf
Mario
Luigi

Low Tier:
Link
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Yoshi
Ness

Bottom Tier:
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Bowser
Kirby
Mewtwo
Pichu

 

[DarkKnight077]

@Mud..it's based on Tourney results not who ***** who. Also nice job of contradicting yourself there.

 

[Mud Buddha]

I said in my post that I knew it was based on tourney results. I also said that I thought it was still pretty accurate despite being based on something fairly arbitrary. So I changed the list as I wanted. I didn't contradict myself at all in that post.

Nice job trying to catch me out on something and failing, dip****.

 

[DarkKnight077]

But..you still did not understand when only "Tourney resutls" matter so you posted on who ***** who but not one tourney results mind you. So you did know it was Tourney results not in your opinion..so that in that case your post is full of ****.

 

[Arj]

I think that is a bunch of crap FoxandFalco. If we wanted a tier list to be based on tourney results rather than character potential, we would simply look at who the best people in the world play. But look at how high Marth is on the tier list, and tell me who out there really deserves that spot other than Ken? And tell me what Sheik has been doing that well that deserves the third spot? We all know there are more Peach's out there, but they keep their spot because everyone knows that you have to compare characters to the entire tier list, not just to the character people play a lot in tourney. Marth and Sheik are in their spots because they rock the entire low and bottom tiers. Otherwise Sheik wouldn't be on top cuz the most played characters are Fox and Falco.

This list is not simply about tourney results. Its about character match ups when compared with the entire cast, not just that characters people use a lot in tournament.

As far as Shiek goes, most of the players who played in the top 10 at OC2 played as Shiek throughout the tournament.

 

[Myztek]

I don't believe that it's 100% based on Tournament results. Several of those characters aren't even used in tournaments. I think Mud Buddha's list is pretty accurate; I agree with it for the most part.

Edit:

Marth should definitely be higher. And the lower the list goes, the harder it gets to organize characters accordingly.

 

[Mud Buddha]

But..you still did not understand when only "Tourney resutls" matter so you posted on who ***** who but not one tourney results mind you. So you did know it was Tourney results not in your opinion..so that in that case your post is full of ****.

What the hell is that shamble meant to mean? Ok, I'll TRY and decipher it.

But..you still did not understand when only "Tourney resutls" matter so you posted on who ***** who but not one tourney results mind you.

Alright, I think this is meant to mean "You don't appreciate that we are talking about tournament results. So you just posted on who's purely better than whoever else and not who statistically is doing better based on tournaments".

Which if that is the case. Uh, yeah, no ****. I said in my initial post that I thought the basis for this tier list was dumb, and I explained why. This is for tier list discussion, which doesn't mean that reasoning is meant to be purely based on tournament results. If it were, there could be no disputes. Statistics cannot be argued with. If there was only ever one tournament, and Ness won. In order to make an accurate tier list based on that tournament Ness would be at the top.

Now don't go a be an absolute ******, and say "Yeah but that's not how it's done". I realise that.

So you did know it was Tourney results not in your opinion..so that in that case your post is full of ****.

This part aboslutely takes the cake. This is really dumb. But I'll try.

I think it means "But even though you realised it was based on tournaments, and not opinion, your post is full of ****."

Hm. When my translation of your post doesn't even make sense, you know you've got a problem.

My post is not "full of ****" as I explained earlier.

edit:

Marth should definitely be higher. And the lower the list goes, the harder it gets to organize characters accordingly.

Yeah, that's definately true.

 

[controlfreak7]

JFox, that's a bunch of bull****. In case you didn't notice, Ken is the ONLY Marth player that places that high. When you look at tournaments, the majority of the players doing well are fox/falco players...that's why they are top tier by theirselfs. You might as well say Link, Pikachu, and Luigi should be placed way higher because Azen places so good with them.....but you can't because he's the only person who does.

And about character matchups, of course the tier list is based on that, I didn't it wasn't. I mean, Fox and Falco have NO counter and almost always have the advantage in all matchups. I didn't say it was simply and only tournament results. I didn't even say it wasn't soley on who's the better character. But I respect the fact that you took the freedom to not read what I said, rather skim and assume.

I'm just saying, it isn't a list based on who's good and who isn't. Why you think it keeps changing? It's because the people who use these characters place differently as time goes on. For example, the sudden rise of these great Ice Climber players... or the HUGE rise of all of these Falco players. I mean...how many Mew2 players do see compared to Fox players? Majority has it's on part in the tier list.

Apologies for not paying attention to this post, I should have read more before posting. Anyways here you said that the tier list must be based on character match-ups so then why can't people just say fox and falco are the best characters in the game? I'm not arguing against you, but how people such as yourself say "the tier list isn't based off who the best character is, but rather how well characters do in tournies." And yet in the end it truly tends to become a list from best to worst character in the game

Originally Posted by Zeke_
i dont see how zelda and yoshi are above Game and Watch.

Zelda and Yoshi players do better than Game and Watch players.

Why couldn't u just simply say that Zelda and Yoshi are better than Game and Watch? Why does it have to be they do better, in the end characters that do better are better so i'm just confused about this whole thing. And if this is the case which it is then the tier list is listing characters chronologically from best to worst.

My point is you can't refute posts that ask questions like that simply by saying this or these characters do better than this or these characters. You have to be specific in your answer. For example: Game and Watch is a very light character and while he has great koing abilities his disadvantage of being light outweighs his koing abilities because Zelda and Yoshi have fair if not good koing abilities and don't tend to have this probem with getting koed they are higher on the list.

 

[NDigighost]

As far as Shiek goes, most of the players who played in the top 10 at OC2 played as Shiek throughout the tournament.

And most of them were japanese, this is the american tierlist. look at my previous post for reference.

 

[FalseFalco]

Shiek should be higher.

Everyone uses her, she's too good, there were 8 in the top 13 at oc2.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Marth should definitely be higher. And the lower the list goes, the harder it gets to organize characters accordingly.

Yeah, that's definately true.

No it's not.

Why couldn't u just simply say that Zelda and Yoshi are better than Game and Watch? Why does it have to be they do better, in the end characters that do better are better so i'm just confused about this whole thing. And if this is the case which it is then the tier list is listing characters chronologically from best to worst.

Obviously Mew2 is better than Pichu, but in tournaments where Fox and Falco and Shieks are all you see, Pichu does better VS them than Mew2 does. Mew2 definitely has better matchups overall, but VS top tiers(which is all you play in tournaments) Pichu does better.

 

[Mud Buddha]

Hey guys! DooTheDah says it's not! I must be wrong!

Boy, please.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Hey guys! DooTheDah says it's not! I must be wrong!

Boy, please.

You don't goto tournaments and you suck at this game.

You know nothing.

 

[NDigighost]

0C was the only tourny in the last year with shiek dominating. the only reason that happened is because of the japanese.

 

[Mud Buddha]

You don't goto tournaments and you suck at this game.

You know nothing.

At the risk of sounding tired, I must repeat myself.

Boy, please.

 

[StripesOrBars]

0C was the only tourny in the last year with shiek dominating. the only reason that happened is because of the japanese.

Shiek is still too good.

But it won't change the American tier list.

 

[NDigighost]

There has been alot of posting without backup, to end it, I present you all of this year's MLG's, I counted appearences so you wouldnt have a hard time:

MLG Chicago top 8 (I didn't bother looking for an example, just went with the most recent MLG:
1st – Ken - Marth, a little fox
2nd – ChuDat - IC's
3rd – Mew2King - Fox
4th – Azen - Marth, a little shiek.
5th – PC Chris - Falco, Marth, Fox (Those are all I saw)
6th – Chillin - Fox
7th – KoreanDJ - Fox, Don't think he went shiek up high.
8th – Isai - CF, Shiek.
Marth - 2
IC's - 1
Shiek - 1
Fox - 4
Falco - 1
CF - 1

Next ones won't be color coded, because I'm tired.

MLG Anaheim
Marth - 1
Shiek - 1/2, only isai.

MLG Dallas
Marth - 1
Shiek - 0

MLG New York
Shiek - 1 (And that's neo, who plays more marth than shiek )
Marth - 3, Neo, Ken and JBlaze (not sure he plays marth, confirmation?)


See, Marth fares better, even if the japanese are awesome with shiek.
Note - KDJ rarely ever plays shiek in singles, you might as well list vidjo as a fox player.

 

[SWORDMASTER66]

so there is a new teir list. ok i dont pay attention to the teirs anyway. i just like playing with people that have swords

 

[NJzFinest]

Mew2king plays Sheik too

 

[Mic_128]

And most of them were japanese, this is the american tierlist. look at my previous post for reference.

It was still an American Tournament right? And it's based on tournament results, right? Not "Tournaments where only americans and no japanese people go to" results.

 

[Cra$hman]

mud buddha, i jsut want to point out that shamble means to walk in a lazy way
don't use words unless you know what they mean

oh yeah, and jblaze plays sheik, not marth

 

[KyUuKyUu]

so there is a new teir list. ok i dont pay attention to the teirs anyway. i just like playing with people that have swords

Omfg that's sig-worthy

 

[NDigighost]

It was still an American Tournament right? And it's based on tournament results, right? Not "Tournaments where only americans and no japanese people go to" results.

The point I'm trying to make is that 0C2 was an anomaly, it is the only recent tourny with such impressive shjiek placements, now one would ask? what was different about OC2, what made it an anomaly? my answer is that japanese players did.

A tier list is a guide to the metagame, for me, the tier list tells me "if you go to a tournament, you better be able to handle foxes, because you will meet alot of good ones". But japanese players do not belong to the metagame, the tournament player should not be afrwaid of CJ's awesome shiek because he will probably never meet it.

Edit:

oh yeah, and jblaze plays sheik, not marth

Okay, I just got pwned. Shiek stays I guess. Thats what you get for not living in the states. Thanks for explaining it to me though, +Rep for you...

 

[Mud Buddha]

mud buddha, i jsut want to point out that shamble means to walk in a lazy way
don't use words unless you know what they mean

oh yeah, and jblaze plays sheik, not marth

Crashman, I just wanted to point out that in colloquial english around the UK, shamble can also refer to a poorly thought out/executed system or situation.

Don't try and correct people unless you know all the facts.

Oh yeah, the first word in a sentence should begin with a capital letter, the word is spelt "just", and when you finish a sentence, you should put a full stop.

 

[*/ShadowFlare\*]

sheik and marth no longer top tiers eh...thats good, now i wont be ridiculed as badly due to my using sheik

 

[DarkKnight077]

Mud hush please you seem you know this game very well but you don't. Don't make tier lists just becase on your opinion make them only each character does in a tounrey so I suggest get up from your couch and walk to one of local tourneys and get out a piece of paper and write down the results.

 

[blaksheap82]

NEO beat Ken's Marth with Roy, so who the person you were responding to plays against doesn't matter. But, to support Marth being better than Roy...

One main reason that I see is because of his low odds of recovery once off the stage. His >+B just doesn't slow down his fall enough to allow the ^+B to help him get back on most occassions.

It's just because Marth's floaty and Roy's a fast faller. Some people think Roy's technically better just because fast fallers are easier to shuffle with than floaties. Marth just takes more practice.


In Samurai Panda's translation thread in Brawl Discussion, he translates one of Sakurai's responses to an e-mail about slowing the game down, and Sakurai says something about "moderating" the speed of the game... Whole point is that I'm going to laugh so hard when SSBB comes out and Wario and Bowser are in the top tiers, and all the quick chars are dropped at least to the middle...

Yeah, not likely, but it would still be really funny. XD

 

[Falco&Victory]

I really think Mewtwo is way higher than Pichu.My mewtwo,after 3 days use,was as good as my C. Falcon,who is my 4th best.But pichu does have some nice things going like skull bash,fsmash,and thunder.But his recovery sucks!It does how much?Like,18% damage?

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

More like 5 or something.

 

[Sytar]

I really think Mewtwo is way higher than Pichu.My mewtwo,after 3 days use,was as good as my C. Falcon,who is my 4th best.But pichu does have some nice things going like skull bash,fsmash,and thunder.But his recovery sucks!It does how much?Like,18% damage?

If he's your 4th best, I doubt he's very good.
Why is pichu's thunder good???

I like Pichu, too. He's probably my 2nd or 3rd best, but he just isn't very good in general. It all relies on the person using him.

 

[StripesOrBars]

NEO beat Ken's Marth with Roy, so who the person you were responding to plays against doesn't matter. But, to support Marth being better than Roy...


It's just because Marth's floaty and Roy's a fast faller. Some people think Roy's technically better just because fast fallers are easier to shuffle with than floaties. Marth just takes more practice.

NEO beat Ken's Marth once with Roy, he lost the set.

LOL @ ease of use with Roy and Marth needing practice.

I really think Mewtwo is way higher than Pichu.My mewtwo,after 3 days use,was as good as my C. Falcon,who is my 4th best.But pichu does have some nice things going like skull bash,fsmash,and thunder.But his recovery sucks!It does how much?Like,18% damage?

I'm done with this thread.

 

[Xeon]

Schweet, cool that Fox is on top. I'd like Mario to be higher, but like everyone has said: Go enter a tournament and place high.

 

[Mud Buddha]

Mud hush please you seem you know this game very well but you don't. Don't make tier lists just becase on your opinion make them only each character does in a tounrey so I suggest get up from your couch and walk to one of local tourneys and get out a piece of paper and write down the results.

Haha, this post is the worst yet.

I think you meant: "Mud, be quiet, you seem to think you know this game, but you don't".

I like how, rather than actually provide reasoning, you've decided to just tell me that I don't know anything.



Then: "Don't make tierlists based on your opinion, make them based on character placing in tournaments".

You've put this point forward so many times, and I'm getting weary shooting it down each time. Sigh, try reading you ignoramus.



This is the only part that was somewhat coherant: "so I suggest get up from your couch and walk to one of local tourneys and get out a piece of paper and write down the results."

Dude, I've explained before why you can't just base a tierlist of tournament results. If you can't be bothered to read what I've put, that's your problem, not mine.

 

[controlfreak7]

Obviously Mew2 is better than Pichu, but in tournaments where Fox and Falco and Shieks are all you see, Pichu does better VS them than Mew2 does. Mew2 definitely has better matchups overall, but VS top tiers(which is all you play in tournaments) Pichu does better.

This doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't that make Pichu better than Mew2 then? How can you say that mew2 is a better character when Pichu is the one that does better?

 

[Mud Buddha]

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Tournaments skew the view of things. Since all you see in tournaments are the top tiers, Pichu will obviously appear superior to Mewtwo purely because of those matchups.

Also, Controlfreak, he explained his point in the post you've just quoted. Mewtwo has more good matchups than Pichu. Meaning he has a better chance of winning against a random opponent than Pichu does.

 

[Bones0]

Mewtwo is floaty so against top tiers and such he gets KO'd faster but against the lower tiers he has a better chance at attacking without getting ***** from 0-90 then KOd. Pichu is faster, a lot faster. Even though he has less range and power (does he? >_>) he is fast enough to make up for it. Also, his recovery is better.

Anyway, I agree with mud's tier list. Not all tiers have to be based off of tourny results you know, you are allowed to have your own opinion. >_> The SBR tiers use facts but in the end, it does come down to opinions whether you like it or not. If that is for the best or worst? I dont know, but you cant shoot down someone else's ideas especially without giving reasons.