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Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

Kal

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You just need a tournament official watching. If there isn't one, you play a one-stock rematch. Seems like an adequate solution. I mean, it's questionable to even consider percent, since the match ended in a very well-defined tie. The only issue is if this happened repeatedly, which seems like a theoretical problem but one which will not matter in practice.
 

Kal

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Yeah, we should be praising the game for even including mechanics that allow these non-traditional stages to exist. Instead, we complain about them and try to make the game look more traditional. I share your dislike for this ruleset, lordvaati.
 

FerrishTheFish

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Oh, I'm warming up to it.

And by "warming up to it," I mean I have given up trying to argue that it should be changed and am trying to console myself with the fact that the new ruleset does, in fact, benefit my character relative to the old ruleset. PokeFloats is a nightmare for Link.
 

EthereaL

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I thought there was a rule that the suicide-inducing player won the match?

Or maybe I've been playing too much Brawl lately.

Regardless, I remember a local tournament we had where I got a star-KO by jumping off and resting with Puff at exactly the same time as I died off the bottom (i.e. it went to sudden death). We just decided on a full replay of the match, but half-replays would probably be better in terms of expediency.
 

lordvaati

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I thought there was a rule that the suicide-inducing player won the match?

Or maybe I've been playing too much Brawl lately.

Regardless, I remember a local tournament we had where I got a star-KO by jumping off and resting with Puff at exactly the same time as I died off the bottom (i.e. it went to sudden death). We just decided on a full replay of the match, but half-replays would probably be better in terms of expediency.
nah, I don't think there is a suicide KO rule here(which I feel is kinda eh in Brawl, btw)

if we had one, Kirby woud be even worse-which is like kicking a dead horse off a mountain.
 

Kal

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I desperately wanted Megaman or Zero to be in Brawl. Hopefully we get some Megaman representation in Smash 4. Though I don't know what has brought this up. >_>
 

RaphaelRobo

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I remember reading an interview somewhere where Sakurai said he didn't think it was a good idea for Ridley to be in the game, because he would be too slow. Does that mean he thinks Brawl Ganon is fast?
 

choknater

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i just noticed that this tentative ruleset has jungle japes on for teams CP

if that doesn't change, i'm gonna be using it for my next tourny :p
 

Strong Badam

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after seeing this list, I fel the only 2 courses left are 1. make PS a Neutal again or 2. remove counter pick(s) altogether. seriously...only 1 stage? this is ridiculous.
the reason is that an odd number of stages is required for stage striking, and Pokémon Stadium is the most polarizing of the legal stages. one of 'em had to go to CP.
 

onionchowder

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I'm sure this is addressed somewhere, but I don't want to dig for it...

A lot of people argue that FD is not a very "neutral" stage -- it is very anomalous in its lack of platforms, and strongly favors characters with good chaingrabs and juggling and blah blah blah. Additionally, a lot of people ***** about FoD because they're whiny *******s.

What is the justification for not using a 3-stage neutral list (BF, YS, DL), considering how many MUs have auto-bans on FD (and how lots of people don't like FoD)?
 

stelzig

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Probably because people think the person striking second in that situation is at a bigger advantage than the guy striking first with 5 stages.
 

Cactuar

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Meh. I don't even really like stage striking. I would probably do double blind stage strikes. If more than one stage remains at the end, random from the remaining stages or agree on a stage.
 

stelzig

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Double blind is a bit of a hassle though and having to strike from 5 stages isn't really a problem.

I wouldn't mind just having BF as the only starter though. Seems to be popular opininon that it is the most neutral stage, and it is also my favourite stage so that would be great, lol.
 

Kal

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In my opinion, it's sort of silly to differentiate between "starter" and "counterpick" at this point. The distinction existed in the past because we selected the first stage randomly, and we wanted to avoid situations like Peach vs. Falco on Brinstar being selected at random. However, we have a methodology for avoiding this sort of situation with the stage strike system, so I think the distinction should now be "legal" and "banned."

Though, if you're banning for balance, onionchowder has a point with regards to Final Destination. Removing Fountain of Dreams from the list of starters because people hate it seems pretty stupid, though I expect removing Final Destination would leave four stages (since we aren't going to be adding in Pokémon Stadium), so we would be forced to remove Fountain of Dreams anyway.

Also, onionchowder, I'm expecting Final Destination, Fountain of Dreams, and Pokémon Stadium to be banned eventually. Final Destination allows for chaingrabs and less than even matchups (unlike all the other stages), Fountain of Dreams has randomly moving platforms, and Pokémon Stadium has janky transformations. We'll have a "strike from three" ruleset soon enough. Until we ban Yoshi's Story because of the cloud, and Dreamland because of the wind. Then we'll have Hax's ruleset.
 

stelzig

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You could strike with 4 stages by just assuming that the first strike is always FD. I don't see it as particularely unfair that one player strikes more stages than the other, I would probably still prefer to strike second and choose the stage. Though I suppose some people will argue that it will be too easy to choose the stage by striking first because there's more obvious/expected strikes from certain players/characters than just FD - but then you have to question if it is really neccesary to remove FD from the striking list to begin with again though ;) (especially when we consider that it is generally the worse characters that have FD as a good stage, and if the stage striking slightly benefits lower tiers, then it is just a positive imo)

Don't think the stagelist will be reduced further, but if it does happen, then it will probably be because of the lack of bans (there are no bans in the NTSC ruleset anymore either, right?), but then we run into the problem of not having enough stages for long sets again - one of the reasons for not having bans anymore in the first place.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Objectively speaking, there are two "best" strike lists. One is the 3 strike (YS/BF/DL) the other is a 5 strike with PS replacing FD (YS/FoD/BF/PS/DL).

Best is defined in relation to making the stage strike a zero sum process, with battlefield at the center.
 

onionchowder

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Also, onionchowder, I'm expecting Final Destination, Fountain of Dreams, and Pokémon Stadium to be banned eventually. Final Destination allows for chaingrabs and less than even matchups (unlike all the other stages), Fountain of Dreams has randomly moving platforms, and Pokémon Stadium has janky transformations.
That is an interesting stance. I think there plenty of matchups that work fine on FD (for example, when I play Doc vs. Peach w/ my friend, we sometimes end up on FD as the first stage). While there are lots of notable matchups where FD is terrible, there are also enough matchups where FD is relatively unbiased to justify keeping it, at least as a counter-pick.

I think similar arguments can be made for FoD and Pokemon Stadium. The "random movement" on FoD does not disrupt gameplay enough to warrant a ban (in fact, FoD is one of my favorite stages because I enjoy using platforms of varying heights).


Objectively speaking, there are two "best" strike lists. One is the 3 strike (YS/BF/DL) the other is a 5 strike with PS replacing FD (YS/FoD/BF/PS/DL).

Best is defined in relation to making the stage strike a zero sum process, with battlefield at the center.
Zero sum in what sense?
Using "chance of winning against my opponent" as a metric, stage striking is inherently a zero-sum process in the sense that, since stage bias can be seen as distributed along one dimension, players take turns striking the stage that most favors their opponent until only the median stage remains. Setting the median stage's bias as "zero" (as in, what the MU ratio ought to be), the process can be seen as converging towards the "zero".

However, I believe the median stage (a.k.a. the "zero" stage a.k.a. the "most neutral" stage) varies from MU to MU and player to player, so I disagree with Sveet's statement that we ought to "zero" by Battlefield. I also strongly disagree with Sveet's opinion that Pokemon Stadium makes for a more balanced stage strike list than Final Destination, but that's a rant for another time.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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zero sum in the sense that, if BF is the "zero" then the strike should always go to battlefield unless one player strikes battlefield, which would be helping their opponent. Best in the sense that, it should go to battlefield in more match-ups than any other list.

I could prove it by doing a lot of ideal strikes in different match-ups, but in short, PS is better than FD because it fits the stage pattern better. One reason is that different platforms are more closely related to other platform stages than a stage without platforms.

Other than platform positioning, there are 2 things that are generally accounted for when choosing a stage. One is on-stage size and the other is off-stage size. Look how neatly PS fits into the pattern:

Small stage, small blastzone
Yoshi's story
Small stage, large blastzone
Fountain of Dreams
medium stage, medium blastzone
Battlefield
large stage, small blastzone
Pokemon Stadium
large stage, large blastzone
Dreamland



... back to homework
 

Kal

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That is an interesting stance. I think there plenty of matchups that work fine on FD (for example, when I play Doc vs. Peach w/ my friend, we sometimes end up on FD as the first stage). While there are lots of notable matchups where FD is terrible, there are also enough matchups where FD is relatively unbiased to justify keeping it, at least as a counter-pick.
It's not a stance reflecting my opinions. I just think the community as a whole, and particularly the MBR, is heading this way. There is a tendency to only focus on the top eight when defining balance: Brinstar isn't really unbalanced when you consider that the overwhelming majority of matchups remain unchanged there. But when you focus on the top eight, you realize that Brinstar favors Peach and Jigglypuff "too much." The same justification can lead to a ban of FD, I think, by observing that Marth and Peach have powerful chaingrabs there, and that Falcon and Sheik have powerful tech chases.

On the other hand, while I agree that the random platform movement on Fountain of Dreams is not enough to warrant a ban, I don't think the rest of the community will see it that way. They'll emphasize the one time a platform is falling while Fox is underneath charging up-smash instead of the overwhelming number of times where the platform movement has no impact on the match.

Mostly, this stance is a result of my cynicism. My stance that stages shouldn't be banned in an attempt to balance or to limit small amounts of randomness has been dismissed, and I think that the number of players like Hax who truly feel that "Battlefield-only" is the "fairest" ruleset will only increase. Inevitably, players will ban these things they dislike, and we will see a smaller stage list as a result.

In other words, your point that there are plenty of acceptable matchups on FD is a point I have made with regards to other stages, and it has been dismissed for these other stages. It would not surprise me if complaints started arising with regards to FD and, in response, the community decided to ban the stage.

Sveet, thanks for clarifying. If you're measuring benefits and losses to your opponent, then the non-Battlefield stages will cancel out each other in many matchups. I would agree that, of the six starter stages, Battlefield is "the most neutral," according to such a definition.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Well one thing that should be noted, Kal, is that the current "neutral only" stage list has lead to more low tiers to be viable than on previous stage lists. This is actually one of the most objective arguments around why this stage list should be used over previous versions.
 

Kal

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As I've said before, I don't think it's our job to balance the game past brokenness. Regardless, the low tiers still get ***** solidly, independent of whether we have Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, etc., legal. It just seems so absurd to me to suggest that we ban something because it makes another character more viable. We could ban the top six characters and see a rise in usefulness for many of the remaining twenty. Would anyone really say that warranted said ban?

It's like people would rather see the Falco main win by banning Brinstar than by keeping Brinstar and having the Falco main learn a second character. It's a mindset I just don't understand.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Well a rule set is just an extension of the game. You can't make a rule set that has no bias, since you are immediately going against how the creators of the game intended it to be played (2 minutes, all items on, all stages, FFA, best of 1). As soon as you cross that threshold into changing the game as you see fit -- which affects nearly everyone that plays the game -- a burden of responsibility falls on your shoulders to make the rules "fair". Because "fair" can be subjective, we made the rules with a large group instead of a single individual, which helps to remove bias.

All rules are subjective. To stonewall a rule for lack objectivity is backwards. Rules are like assumptions, they are either good or they are bad. In this case, reducing the stage list is good because it adds consistency to the results and it allows for more viable characters. Claims like, "falco players just want to ban brinstar because they are scrubby" are ignorant at best.
 

Strong Badam

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Brinstar is one of my characters' best stages and I didn't want it legal for reasons stated for over 50 pages. Deal with it.

The MBR also has stated several times that the stage list is not an opportunity to artificially balance the roster, so I don't see why you (or anyone else; SVEET) keep bringing that up. The ideology we use for our stagelist is for the stages to have the least amount of interference with the outcome of a tournament set.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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There are a lot of factors that go into deciding a rule set, Strong Bad. You are lying if you say that character viability was not part of the discussion. Is that wrong? No. Should it be the only thing to consider? No. Should it be weighed along with the other factors? Yes.
 

Strong Badam

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I don't actually think it was. A ruleset is built around the majority of the community, and the majority of the community uses the top 7-10 characters.
 

Cactuar

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I have addressed this before. We balance around set outcomes for viable characters. This means that, between any of the top 8-10 matchups, if both players are roughly even and have an average knowledge of what stages are good and bad for the machup being played, the outcome of the set will be minimally influenced by the stages. The individual matches may be greatly influenced by a stage, but if that is possible, the opponent should be able to take you to a stage that provides a similar influence in their favor.

Pokemon Stadium + Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams + Dreamland
Yoshi's Story + Battlefield

This is the standard view, but due to matchup differences, Dreamland sometimes gets paired with Yoshi's Story instead.
 

Kal

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Well a rule set is just an extension of the game.
A ruleset is not the extension of the game. You have no game sans ruleset. In a very real sense, the ruleset is the game.

You can't make a rule set that has no bias, since you are immediately going against how the creators of the game intended it to be played (2 minutes, all items on, all stages, FFA, best of 1).
Some choices are arbitrary and must be made. Banning a stage does not fall under this. You also keep referring to bias, which is peculiar since it's not something I've mentioned. I have no problem with bias in a ruleset, it just needs to be justified. I don't expect objectivity per se, but that doesn't mean all decisions are equally justifiable.

As soon as you cross that threshold into changing the game as you see fit -- which affects nearly everyone that plays the game -- a burden of responsibility falls on your shoulders to make the rules "fair". Because "fair" can be subjective, we made the rules with a large group instead of a single individual, which helps to remove bias.
We're not "changing the game as we see fit" from the beginning. At the most, we are making the arbitrary decisions where they need to be made: what game should we play? Should we play stock or time? How many stock should we use?

There is a large jump in logic. Why does it follow that you have to make the ruleset "fair?" You haven't even defined fairness. All rulesets are inherently fair provided all aspects of the game are available to all players. So what do you mean by "fair" in this case?

All rules are subjective.
If you mean to say that all rules are justified subjectively, then I might agree. But this mean it's ok to make arbitrary decisions.

To stonewall a rule for lack objectivity is backwards. Rules are like assumptions, they are either good or they are bad. In this case, reducing the stage list is good because it adds consistency to the results and it allows for more viable characters. Claims like, "falco players just want to ban brinstar because they are scrubby" are ignorant at best.
Consider the following argument:

"Banning Sheik is good because it allows for more viable characters."

It's the same justification, but the logic is disagreed with. Because, when it comes down to it, "good" and "bad" are useless words that people will and will not agree with (we notice, for example, that "no items, Falco only, Final Destination" makes for a very balanced game with very little variance; most people would not want such a ruleset).

The reality, and you're welcome to call me ignorant, is that all of these rules are made out of scrubinness. Maybe they're made with some misguided good intentions, but they are scrubby. Because the justification is scrubby.

While I have an issue with too much subjectivity in creating rulesets (e.g., I think the game is infinitely better without Falco, but I would not ban Falco because I know this is just opinion), I don't have an inherent issue with subjectivity. There will always be some subjectivity in creating a ruleset (for example, the decision to play this game over any other, the decision to strike for the first stage instead of choosing it randomly, etc.). My main issue is with the fact that there appears, in most cases, to be no set of criteria to base these rules on. People just decide what they do and don't like and use that as justification for bans. In the cases where people do seem to have criteria (e.g. you and Cactuar), I highly disagree with these criteria, mostly because they are scrubby.

tl;dr we shouldn't be banning anything for balance, unless the balance issues are extreme (i.e., broken).

Brinstar is one of my characters' best stages and I didn't want it legal for reasons stated for over 50 pages. Deal with it.
Deal with what, exactly?

The MBR also has stated several times that the stage list is not an opportunity to artificially balance the roster, so I don't see why you (or anyone else; SVEET) keep bringing that up. The ideology we use for our stagelist is for the stages to have the least amount of interference with the outcome of a tournament set.
Cactuar has actually said things are banned in the interest of balance (not necessarily only balance). My guess is that things are done democratically, so every individual in the MBR thinks that things are banned for a different reason.
 

Cactuar

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It is a timeline thing. People are accusing us of making changes to balance the character list. This is backwards.

The character list has evolved independently. We are all relatively aware of the current state of the tiers, etc. Given this information, we make the rules around the existing balance of the game to provide an optimal, neutral environment. This is what we, as a collective, feel is the most legitimate test of skill between two opponents. This is an opinion, but it is a keystone opinion (and a popular one), so much of the approach is set around it.
 

Kal

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Duck Tales, Oo-oo
Tales of derring-do, bad and good luck tales, oo-oo
D-d-d-danger, watch behind you - there's a stranger out to find you
What to do? Just grab onto some Duck Tales, oo-oo!
Not pony tails or cotton tails but Duck Tales, oo-oo!

 

Cactuar

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I found that post to be highly relevant to the thread as it accurately represents the perceived behavior of backroom members.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Kal, I wasn't referring to any specific point in ur post; my point was that in the end every stance relies on a subjectivity. Cactuar uses the community's desires, I use character equality, and you use sirlinistic philosophy. None of them are bad, I just wish there was a way to reconsile them into a unified rule set.

:phone:
 

Cactuar

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We should all compromise. I'll make up all the rules on a whim and at random, and then you guys can agree to them or we can brainstorm and make up justifications for all of them.


63 stock
4 minutes
Classic stages only


63 stock is the obvious optimal choice, but 4 minutes was scientifically derived by counting the number of fingers I have on one hand (exludes thumb). As I hold a controller with my hand, I felt that this was the best possible method for determining timer length. Math is not my strong suit though, so I will allow Kal to do any proofs required.
 
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