Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[ShroudedOne]

You guys are really silly. =P

Were people always choosing Fox on Hyrule back in the day, and just running away?

 

[Hylian]

You guys are really silly. =P

Were people always choosing Fox on Hyrule back in the day, and just running away?

I've played on Hyrule in tournament lol.

But no, Hyrule has pretty much always been banned.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So...

You guys are saying that there isn't enough evidence for KJ64 to be banned, because it hasn't be over-centralizing. But if Hyrule wasn't ever really chosen, and thus there is really only theory as to why it should be banned...why is it banned? If that makes sense.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No, it wasn't. It was at a tournament my girlfriend and I hosted so I know this for a fact. I played him first round in bracket(80 person tournament) and he went zelda and I Jv 3 stocked him. He then went falco game 2 and marth game 3 and beat me(2 stocked me in both I believe). I believe I was the only person he didn't play Zelda against.

I won't lose to Zelda as fox lol I really don't know how anyone can, the match-up is absurdly easy for fox. I beat his zelda solidly while at the time heavily playing brawl, I hadn't played melee for probably 6 months before the tournament.

What tournament was this? When?

I seem to recall a tournament a while back that I couldn't attend but i checked out the stream. I remember Cosmo played against a fox player that laser camped him on PS and won, and i recall knowing their name from being an admin on the boards and not as a tournament name. I could have sworn it was you.

 

[Hylian]

What tournament was this? When?

I seem to recall a tournament a while back that I couldn't attend but i checked out the stream. I remember Cosmo played against a fox player that laser camped him on PS and won, and i recall knowing their name from being an admin on the boards and not as a tournament name. I could have sworn it was you.

It was at HD: Remix. I hosted the tournament with Rauleen lol we didn't play on stream. Kels won the tournament against deku in the finals.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought it was HDR. I think you played on stream and didnt notice. That was the one where deku placed really high, right? And at the end the stream was just a camera shot of the crowd for a while and some people were trying to turn it to try to see a screen

 

[Sinji]

So...

You guys are saying that there isn't enough evidence for KJ64 to be banned, because it hasn't be over-centralizing. But if Hyrule wasn't ever really chosen, and thus there is really only theory as to why it should be banned...why is it banned? If that makes sense.

Pretty much.

It all depends on KJ64 platform advantage for certain characters. I think the stage was banned based off of the characters attributes on the stage and not looking at the overall game's persona.

 

[Hylian]

I thought it was HDR. I think you played on stream and didnt notice. That was the one where deku placed really high, right? And at the end the stream was just a camera shot of the crowd for a while and some people were trying to turn it to try to see a screen

Are you not listening to me? I RAN THE TOURNAMENT. I RAN THE STREAM. I KNOW I WASN'T ON STREAM BECAUSE I WAS RUNNING IT.

Jesus dude, you didn't see me play him on stream, there were plenty of fox's he could have played and beaten. Several people watched me play him and they can all tell you I destroyed his Zelda, and then he switched to Falco on PS, and then went Marth when I counterpicked FD.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ok that might have happened but you were definitely on the stream lol. i did see you laser his zelda and jv 3. its was one of the more surprising things i had seen that day

 

[Hylian]

The stream was recorded lol I would love to see that if I was, or if a different stream was hooked up to the TV I was playing on(I think we had 2 streams at one point) but I'm pretty sure I was far away from the Stream TV when I played him.


Edit:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/radium88

Feel free to look for it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I did a couple youtube searches and it didnt come up. I swear I saw the set tho haha. Him switching off zelda does sound familiar too, i think i was wrong about that. All i remember was the PS match and i took a few notes


edit- i did a similar thing to him a few months before you. We met in WF of a local sized tourney when i still mostly played marth. His zelda beat my marth games 1 and 2, but i went fox on DL game 3. Ran around a lot and used the top platform. He went falcon game 4 on FD and i beat that and then he went falco on FoD game 5 and i lost

 

[Hylian]

Yeah zelda can't do anything to fox :/ lol I don't know how he beats good foxes at all.

 

[Kal]

So...

You guys are saying that there isn't enough evidence for KJ64 to be banned, because it hasn't be over-centralizing. But if Hyrule wasn't ever really chosen, and thus there is really only theory as to why it should be banned...why is it banned? If that makes sense.

Hyrule is overtly broken. It's undisputed that Fox hard-counters every other character in the game with an extremely derivative tactic. KJ64 comes nowhere close. This is why we want real evidence that KJ64 is broken, whereas we take it for granted with Hyrule.

If someone contested the Hyrule ban with reasonable theory suggesting that Fox is not broken there, then we would want evidence for the same reasons we want evidence for KJ64.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah zelda can't do anything to fox :/ lol I don't know how he beats good foxes at all.

I think he figured it out sometime after that. I played him at SMYM this year and even though i was many times better than i had been before, he was flawless. His defense didn't have any holes and he would approach methodically and cut off options. Maybe I wasn't playing campy enough, but i remember trying quite hard and even though i would get him to mid percents last stock, he would always win.

 

[Cosmo!]

if hylian was in my bracket at smym he would have gotten steamrolled. zelda is strong only when her defense is spot on. me getting hit by random upsmash at 80% cause i'm playing horribly is not indicative of anything. fox beats zelda pretty solidly but hylian is full of himself if he thinks that match was anything close to being the matchup at metagame level.

i had a recent set with Matt R. which I feel showed the matchup's true nature at high level. shame it was not recorded

 

[Hylian]

if hylian was in my bracket at smym he would have gotten steamrolled. zelda is strong only when her defense is spot on. me getting hit by random upsmash at 80% cause i'm playing horribly is not indicative of anything. fox beats zelda pretty solidly but hylian is full of himself if he thinks that match was anything close to being the matchup at metagame level.

i had a recent set with Matt R. which I feel showed the matchup's true nature at high level. shame it was not recorded

Nice johns. I'm not full of myself at all, I don't even care about how good I am at melee anymore and I never practice it because I'm a brawl player. You are johning about playing bad when I hadn't even played melee in probably almost 2 years seriously, I guarantee I was playing much worse than you lmao.

I'm not sure what you are even trying to defend, I played the match-up exactly how it should be played. I ran away from you and shot lasers and when you approached I just either grabbed you or ran past you. I didn't throw out "random usmashes" so I'm not sure what you mean by that, though I did get you with quite a few waveshine to usmash. I'm not good at melee at all anymore, I stopped playing it in 2008 and only play it occasionally( like once every 8 months). The fact that I beat you despite the skill difference is a pretty good indicator of how bad that match-up is, which is why I used it as an example. There was no reason for you to come in here and say you would "steamroll" me aside from your pride being hurt.

 

[Kal]

I beat his zelda solidly while at the time heavily playing brawl, I hadn't played melee for probably 6 months before the tournament.

me getting hit by random upsmash at 80% cause i'm playing horribly is not indicative of anything.

So do we like... average how horribly you guys were playing, and use that to figure out who would have won? Or is this one of those moments where someone comes in and says "no johns?"

 

[Bones0]

No johns.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol Cosmo, I wasn't expecting an answer like that.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hyrule is overtly broken. It's undisputed that Fox hard-counters every other character in the game with an extremely derivative tactic. KJ64 comes nowhere close. This is why we want real evidence that KJ64 is broken, whereas we take it for granted with Hyrule.

If someone contested the Hyrule ban with reasonable theory suggesting that Fox is not broken there, then we would want evidence for the same reasons we want evidence for KJ64.

Why is it undisputed if it hasn't been done enough to know for sure that it's broken? Or am I missing a point here? Are there simply some things that we should take for granted? Cause I'm not sure that I agree with that (obviously I'm not advocating for Hyrule to be unbanned, that's not what I'm getting at).

 

[Cosmo!]

All I'm trying to say is that I've played against much campier, stronger opponents in much longer sets and what you saw in that single game was not a good representation of what zelda can do in the matchup.

as I soundly defeated you in the set I don't feel I have anything to prove in terms of pride or skill

 

[Hylian]

All I'm trying to say is that I've played against much campier, stronger opponents in much longer sets and what you saw in that single game was not a good representation of what zelda can do in the matchup.

as I soundly defeated you in the set I don't feel I have anything to prove in terms of pride or skill

So you think Zelda is viable against fox?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think hes saying that camping in that fashion is not the optimal strategy against zelda

 

[Hylian]

That has nothing to do with the point I made.

 

[Deleted member]

fox doesn't have to play optimally to destroy zelda. zelda is not viable against fox. zelda's defense is only spot on if the opponent allows it to be. she simply doesn't have the control tools to force any character to do anything, let alone in poor match-ups.

 

[Cosmo!]

So you think Zelda is viable against fox?

Is Ganon viable against Fox? Same type of matchup

 

[Deleted member]

ganon can pin fox by running him out of stage or he can effectively camp the middle of tri-platform stages with his priority/range. ganon also has a MUCH better punishment game if you get a read, a better tech-chasing game, has more weight, etc. they might be close in some sense but ganon being almost strictly better at many relevant things keeps it from being a legit comparison IMO.

 

[The Star King]

Why is it undisputed if it hasn't been done enough to know for sure that it's broken? Or am I missing a point here? Are there simply some things that we should take for granted? Cause I'm not sure that I agree with that (obviously I'm not advocating for Hyrule to be unbanned, that's not what I'm getting at).

It's undisputed because it's... obvious. Nobody with a decent grasp on competitive Melee is going to argue for the legality of Hyrule Temple. This is not the case for Kongo Jungle, so people want evidence.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So in some cases we need evidence, but not others? As a general rule, this doesn't really make sense. In this particular case, though, it's fine. I guess. :\

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it's a bit annoying that "It's obvious" is good enough justification for banning Hyrule when there's more evidence to ban Kongo Jungle 64 than there is to ban Hyrule Temple. The fact that Hyrule was banned before evidence could be collected is kind of irrelevant because... yeah. It's whatever though because both are banned in singles. :]

 

[The Star King]

There's only more evidence because Hyrule has been universally banned pretty much throughout Melee's entire lifespan.

If there's nobody disputing the legality of Hyrule Temple with plausible arguments, then why do we need evidence? Who are we proving things to?

 

[Strong Badam]

It's the double standard that's the problem, not the fact that I think Hyrule Temple should be legal and need to be convinced otherwise.

 

[Hylian]

They aren't the same stage... Hyrule has a giant block in the middle that you can run around and people can't attack you through. KJ64 has high platforms. Very different. The giant block in the middle is an obvious problem, high platforms are not an obvious problem.

 

[Kal]

It's not really a double standard. It's a question of what makes something "obviously" broken. If the explanation for Hyrule is not obvious enough for you, then by all means make it legal at your next tournament. However, the consensus among most players is that it's obviously broken because Fox hard counters everyone there with a simple run-away strategy. Kongo Jungle lacks any such obviously broken feature. Yes, it has problems, but since those problems are more subtle than "one character hard counters everyone else," we want evidence.

It's a double standard insofar as our definition of "obvious" happens to apply to Hyrule, but not Kongo Jungle 64. But it's not as though we're arbitrarily demanding evidence for one but not the other.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's a double standard insofar as our definition of "obvious" happens to apply to Hyrule, but not Kongo Jungle 64. But it's not as though we're arbitrarily demanding evidence for one but not the other.

Your definition of obvious is arbitrary and therefore you are arbitrarily demanding evidence for one but not the other.

 

[Kal]

Yeah, the definition of "obvious" is subjective. Obviously. Thanks for contributing, as usual, Sveet.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah, I don't really see what that post was supposed to accomplish. I don't think Sveet (or anyone) would disagree that Hyrule is obviously broken, so why attempt to start quibbling about whether our perception of Hyrule is arbitrary or not?

 

[Kal]

I think people just want to make us seem inconsistent for wanting evidence in the form of tournament results to ban KJ64 but not Hyrule.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well the theory behind KJ's ban is the same behind Hyrule's ban and the only reason you are taking Hyrules ban more serious is because its "obvious"

 

[Kal]

No, the theory is not the same. Fox hard counters everyone on Hyrule. All you've done is poorly explain how 9 characters lose viability on KJ64, then say "I believe Fox can timeout everyone except Fox, Falco, and Falcon on KJ64," without even explaining if said timeout strategy is overpowered.