- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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Lol you mean like Kongo Jungle 64?
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Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
That's an amazing stage list. Though I would love to see DK64 be in singles too.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
I didn't say it wouldn't work.
A couple of remarks:
ShroudedOne, don't bother responding to Varist. You've demonstrated that you're a good poster and the question you've posited is an important one, as I've explained. Even if you're being stubborn, it's not the end of the ****ing world if we have to explain to one more poster why we've banned Hyrule but not KJ64. Wasting bandwidth while I'm using 1.5 MiB/s to download porn doesn't seem like a big issue.
Ferrish, Fox outruns Falcon if he trots. On the off chance that you are not familiar with this technique, it's where you move by using only the start-up animation of your run. In Fox's case, it actually causes him to move faster than simply running, and in fact makes him move slightly faster than C. Falcon.
Strong Bad, I think Varist means a stage that is already banned unanimously and for obvious reasons, though your point still stands that he hasn't explained why Hyrule is obviously broken but KJ64 is not (the reason is obvious, obviously). Also, it's a tentative ruleset, brah.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I know what trotting is, I use it to upB (Link)/knee (Falcon) people who like to spot-dodge too much when I'm techchasing them, although I didn't know that it let Fox run faster than Falcon. Of course, this just supports the fact that Fox can circle camp Falcon on Hyrule, so I'm not really sure why you brought it up.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Evidence has already been provided for why KJ is ban-worthy. The entire last two pages of this thread were pointless. It's hilarious how the people who want it legal just keep arguing in circles. The consensus keeps alternating between "Stalling isn't broken on KJ!" and "You should just pick Fox/Falco/Falcon so you don't get timed out!"
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Race to the Finish is the most legit stage in the game loooool.
Beat!
Smash Master
Race to the Finnish
Scandinavian war history summed up in one sentence.
Scandinavian war history summed up in one sentence.
Beat!
Smash Master
Well, if your definition of a scandinavian country is "not a scandinavian country", then yes. Scottish.
Beat!
Smash Master
You win 1x Internet Degree in Scot-er-Scandinavian History.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
It's hilarious that you accuse us of arguing in circles when your argument is based on circular logic to begin with. If a Fox worse than me is able to gain a stock advantage or a % advantage and successfully run away for an entire match despite the absence of game mechanics that prevent me from approaching, is that Fox truly worse than me? (For the record, how good a given character is on a relative scale in the current metagame is at least partially dependent on which stages are legal.) After all, it's not like Fox (who runs faster, jumps higher and faster, wavedashes faster, shoots faster projectiles at a faster rate) isn't equipped with the mechanics to camp out Link to begin with, it's just that larger stages tend to accentuate that advantage.
Yes, there are some characters that gain an undeniable advantage on KJ64. What we're arguing is that this advantage is not very different from, say for example, Sheik being able to remain invincible for an entire match on any stage with a ledge. I don't think it's even possible for Link to steal the ledge from Sheik from standing at a safe distance without prediction and an unreasonable degree of frame-precision because of how pathetic his wavedash and running speed both are, but that's never stopped me from beating Sheiks worse than me because that strategy is not guaranteed (And I'm not saying, "If ledge-camping is legal then camping on KJ64 should also be legal," I'm just giving an example of a non-broken strategy in an effort to isolate the criterion that make a strategy broken or not). The point is that a strategy is not broken if it is not 100% guaranteed to the point of allowing worse players to beat better players on the basis of that strategy alone. Hyrule is banned because, while Fox can laser pretty safely on FD, DL, PS, and KJ64, Fox can laser in complete safety on Hyrule due to the fact that he always has an escape option and can't be cornered, and can therefore win on the basis of circle camping alone. Fox's escape options on KJ64 are not 100% guaranteed due to the presence of the rotating platforms in the middle.
The whole deal with the characters is about how even the people who think KJ64 is broken admit that three characters (which is almost half of the 8 characters about which the metagame pretty much revolves) can't be timed out on that stage. Kage says he has no problem playing Ganon on KJ64. I would think that Link/Young Link would also gain an advantage on KJ64.
And by the way, can anyone explain how camping on KJ64 with Falco or Falcon is broken? I don't see how Falco or Falcon can 100% guaranteed time out a better player on KJ64 because Falco has poor horizontal mobility and Falcon has no projectile. How, exactly, is Falcon supposed to time out a Marth or a Sheik better than him on KJ64?
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Okay we'll just base the legality of a stage on a top players inexperience. Kage said he hasn't had a problem, but he hasn't ever been directly camped either. I hope I don't have to link RockCrock vs. PinkShinobi for the 10th time in this thread.
I don't think falco or falcon can camp. Maybe not even fox. It's Puff and Peach, and only against slow characters with bad jumps.
What is everyone's stance on the the whole 'learn a new character' thing. It seems dumb to me that people like Kage might have to put in hours and hours of work to learn a new character simply because the mbr decides that a stage is legal, and he doesn't want to get gayed.
Beat!
Smash Master
To be fair, RockCrock didn't exactly play ideally in that match.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Is it dumb that I had to put in hours and hours of work to learn a new character simply because the MBR decided that every character above Pichu is legal? No. You don't make a ruleset to balance a game, outside of eliminating broken strategies.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Let me just say I haven't played a single match in my life where I've got camped for 8 mins. You want to why? It's because they can't do it vs me. My strategies is generally anti-camping because I like to fight the opponent in the rules where I think I'll do the best in and my opponent is forced to play by this game because if not then he'll get hit over and over.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Nothing is ever "purely" player vs. player. There is no competitive game where the parameters of the game do not affect the outcome. RPS is not "purely" player vs. player because the parameters of the game literally dictate who wins each game. There is no abstract scale of relative worth that will allow me to defeat my opponent if I choose paper and he chooses scissors. If my competitive goal in RPS was to make sure nobody could ever beat me with scissors, I would always throw either rock or scissors. Any time scissors beats me, it is a risk and responsibility that I accepted the moment I chose paper. If my competitive goal in Melee was to make sure nobody could ever camp me out, I would either main or second a character who doesn't get camped easily (coincidentally, I second Falcon) or, like Kage, I could put in a lot of time and effort to develop anti-camping strategies for a character that is commonly believed to be easy to camp. Any time I am camped out, it is a risk and responsibility that I accepted when I selected a character who is easy to time out despite my foreknowledge of a stage that encourages camping.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Actually, I don't think those in favor of the KJ64 ban attribute any problems to any lack of this poorly defined player vs. player concept. I was merely kidding. The issue most people seem to have is that camping is a powerful strategy. The problem there is that they never provide anything more than that (or some vague explanation of how powerful the strategy is). It's not broken just because ****ty characters get ***** by good characters there, or because one matchup largely regarded as even-ish suddenly favors one character over another. Though I believe Cactuar has said that he wishes to minimize the number of stages to allow for the least variation from 50-50 among the "viable" characters. I don't agree with that methodology at all, but with that methodology in mind there is a good case for banning KJ64.
The whole "player vs. player" thing comes up with stages like Brinstar and Mute City, I think. I can't really explain the concept since all I've come to understand is that wanting Brinstar legal is the equivalent of wanting to compete in HRC.
The whole "player vs. player" thing comes up with stages like Brinstar and Mute City, I think. I can't really explain the concept since all I've come to understand is that wanting Brinstar legal is the equivalent of wanting to compete in HRC.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
LOL Unlike some people, I don't consider a person's qualifications to make a significant contribution to a discussion to be an object of derision. Now we just gotta surgically perform the saltiness-tuck and Gentleman's Clause-augmentation and you're ready to perform Bernoulli trials until 9 successes 8D Too bad I'm a statistician, not a surgeon, 'cause I think plenty of people around here could use a saltiness-tuck.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
... I'm saying that some people tried to bash me back when I talked about my Stats background, but I wouldn't do the same to you about your Algebra background. I was also trying to make a joke about how between the two of us, we have all the technology we need to determine the length of a HRC bo17 tournament, as long as everybody there underwent some sort of operation that would make them stick to one character and play on one stage with zero saltiness and unlimited usage of the Gentleman's Clause. And that I wished I knew how to perform that operation, because some people need to stop being salty about certain stages.
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Could be true.
To the first point, I don't understand. I was implying that he has already learned and dedicated time to Ganondorf, and if this stage is legal, he might have to learn a new character. Apparently he doesn't think so though.
Okay so maybe you're better at not getting camped than RockCrock. We really just need evidence. To be honest I don't have any evidence, im just going off of experience.
This made me LOL.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well ya, I'm normally always going by my experience, is that wrong?
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
To me "salty" has a slightly less... serious connotation, and perhaps a bit more childish. IDK. That's one of the useful underground terms that I always want to use in conversation, but I don't because people don't understand it. Another one is "inb4", that **** is seriously useful and needs to be integrated into mainstream speech.
I will defend these phrases to the grave (serious post)
Van.
Smash Ace
star king is on top of the avatar metagame imo
Geenareeno
Smash Lord
Not at all. What you have shown us is that we need evidence. Which is what we already knew. Promise me you'll mm Hbox at Apex and tell him to camp you on Kongo LOL.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Um ... Kal's math is right ... A best of 17 = 2n-1 is equivalent to a first to n = (17+1)/2 = 9.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I know. I was being facetious.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Ferrish, a ring R is characteristic n if 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (n-times) = 0, where 1 denotes the multiplicative identity in R. For example, Z/2Z (the integers mod 2) are characteristic 2. Fly's joke was that my math was off because the integers are characteristic 2, which would make every set best of 1. The integers, however, are not characteristic 2. They are characteristic 0 because 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (n-times) is not 0 for any n.
It's nice having an algebraist around. Fly, we must discuss these things more. Your moderator powers could also be of use.
It's nice having an algebraist around. Fly, we must discuss these things more. Your moderator powers could also be of use.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Armada vs. Kage on KJ64. Make it happen.
($20 on Armada; any takers??? :D)
($20 on Armada; any takers??? :D)
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
And what if Armada wins? Armada is arguably the best player in the world, and you still think that camping would be the sole reason for any victory of his on KJ64? Like I keep saying, if you can camp players worse than you but not players better than you, then clearly camping on KJ64 is not broken, because a broken strategy would allow you to beat players better than you!