Tenative Evo Ruleset (Discussion Welcome)

[LiteralGrill]

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• Game Settings: 2 Stock, 5 Minute Time Limit, 2/3 Games
• Starter stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville
• Counter-pick stages: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Town & City

I can say personally I am unhappy with this as 3 starters gives an unfair advantage to the person who strikes 2nd and 5 starters is NOT unreasonable at all, not to mention the absense of Kongo Jungle 64 and Skyloft (if not Wuhu Island and Pokemon Stadium 2 aqs well).

However, I figure it'd be good for the community to discuss it, so discuss! and if you don't like these rules, go bug him on Twitter.

EDIT:

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Well crud.

 

[byebye]

There have been developments in twitter. There is a big chance for customs to be legal. I am in favor of that and let's make a push for it so that it'll become final.

That - and looks like 2stock / 5mins is probably it for Evo.
For those who are in favor of 3 stocks - maybe the community needs to try it out some other time on other tourney's first before we can have a push on that rule.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I really want to know why the stage rules in particular are locked.

EDIT: NVM, apparently it's Nintendo's doing. Still can't imagine why they'd disallow Skyloft or Wuhu Island. Or Pokemon Stadium 2.

 

[webbedspace]

*wolves from the 2AM music track howl approvingly*

Honestly, expecting them to not use a subset of the Apex stagelist was probably a bit much to hope for, so I'm glad that at least Duck Hunt is a lock. (Unless by "nothing more we can add" he means "but we can still take away stuff obvs").

 

[T0MMY]

The thing is pretty much everyone is ok with the three starters they have. It's the extended and fringe stages that people are forced to play on that most are unhappy with. If anything there needs to be a way that allows the people who want to play on an extended list of stages able to do so and those who want to have nothing to do with giant lasers or bombs randomly blowing them up not have to be forced to play on them.

Also I am looking at these rules and see that it's not just possible, but probable that Items will be used for these sets. The rules state "default settings" unless exceptions say otherwise and Items ON could very well be considered a default setting.

 

[Thinkaman]

The thing is pretty much everyone is ok with the three starters they have. It's the extended and fringe stages that people are forced to play on that most are unhappy with. If anything there needs to be a way that allows the people who want to play on an extended list of stages able to do so and those who want to have nothing to do with giant lasers or bombs randomly blowing them up not have to be forced to play on them.

This is gonna be a bold and crazy idea, but what if we let the loser of the previous match pick stage, or let players strike from a list to reach a middle ground?

 

[T0MMY]

This is gonna be a bold and crazy idea, but what if we let the loser of the previous match pick stage, or let players strike from a list to reach a middle ground?

Why would we give one player an advantage over the other with a counterpick system? Doesn't that violate fairness principle?

Edit: Yeah, I got the sarcasm. And this is still an interesting point to bring up about the process.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why would we give one player an advantage over the other with a counterpick system? Doesn't that violate fairness principle?

Sorry, I mean the previous game.

I was just pointing out that the counterpick system we have always used is itself a compromise between differing stage preferences.

 

[Protom]

Also, 5 minutes over 6?
Almost as upsetting as the lack of Kongo and sky loft..

 

[Steam]

oh jesus 2 stock/5 minute timer and possibly customs? I'll be skipping out on this one.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So apparently the reason the stage list is locked is due to licensing issues with the music. This makes sense for Windy Hill Zone, Wily Castle (lol), and Pac-Land (lol) since those are third party series. But can someone with more legal knowledge than me explain why this would preclude Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Kongo Jungle 64 from the stage list?

 

[T0MMY]

Sorry, I mean the previous game.

I was just pointing out that the counterpick system we have always used is itself a compromise between differing stage preferences.

I'm sure you know the reason to use the system because we used it in the past is a fallacy I cannot accept.
The question: Is the compromise fair?

What is your take on giving one player advantage in choosing the Stage?
Even with a ban or two that is allowed it really depends on how extended of a stagelist being used. Big enough lists means the very real possibility of being taken to a Stage that puts having Items ON to shame.

This is why I like where this discussion goes - it asks very difficult questions regarding competition and principles.

But I'd rather get to the bottom of things with Items at Evo!

 

[Pazx]

The music thing is so strange.

What's everyone's opinion on the timer, surely it would go up rather than down?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Not sure if Zero doesn't want customs at EVO because he truly, deep down, honestly feels it's not the best choice for the game or because his paychecks depends on there being the least amount of variables as possible. In any case I believe customs needed to start being championed way too long ago for them to make it at EVO now. It's too sudden a change, we needed them to be played sooner.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I feel like changing the time will promote more time outs and not even by characters who specialize in zoning. If things are going to be locked. Then the timer should stay.

 

[HeroMystic]

The music thing is so strange.

What's everyone's opinion on the timer, surely it would go up rather than down?

He was pushing for 4 minutes at one point.

Not sure if Zero doesn't want customs at EVO because he truly, deep down, honestly feels it's not the best choice for the game or because his paychecks depends on there being the least amount of variables as possible. In any case I believe customs needed to start being championed way too long ago for them to make it at EVO now. It's too sudden a change, we needed them to be played sooner.

He doesn't want customs at EVO because he hasn't practiced with them on, and I doubt any national tournament runners have done so either.

 

[shapular]

So apparently the reason the stage list is locked is due to licensing issues with the music. This makes sense for Windy Hill Zone, Wily Castle (lol), and Pac-Land (lol) since those are third party series. But can someone with more legal knowledge than me explain why this would preclude Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Kongo Jungle 64 from the stage list?

For KJ64 and PS2, I'd guess some or all of their tracks are owned by Rare and Game Freak, respectively. Wuhu Island has a track from Tetris. Idk about Skyloft but some of the Zelda games were made by Capcom, but as far as I can tell none of the tracks from their games are in Smash 4. That could just be a stage that they don't think should be legal.

Edit: Thinking about it more, the music logic doesn't make sense for PS2 since PS1 is legal in Melee. It's probably because it's an extremely fringe stage that most people wouldn't want.

 

[webbedspace]

For KJ64 and PS2, I'd guess some or all of their tracks are owned by Rare and Game Freak, respectively.

Rare officially owns zero of the Donkey Kong Country IP at the moment, except for Banjo and Conker who were introduced in Diddy Kong Racing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

For KJ64 and PS2, I'd guess some or all of their tracks are owned by Rare and Game Freak, respectively. Wuhu Island has a track from Tetris. Idk about Skyloft but some of the Zelda games were made by Capcom, but as far as I can tell none of the tracks from their games are in Smash 4. That could just be a stage that they don't think should be legal.

Edit: Thinking about it more, the music logic doesn't make sense for PS2 since PS1 is legal in Melee. It's probably because it's an extremely fringe stage that most people wouldn't want.

I guess the root of my confusion is that they have enough of a license to put the music in the game to begin with, but now that they're sponsoring a tournament (I assume so otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue) they can't let it play? IANAL but seriously, WTF?

 

[HeroMystic]

I guess the root of my confusion is that they have enough of a license to put the music in the game to begin with, but now that they're sponsoring a tournament (I assume so otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue) they can't let it play? IANAL but seriously, WTF?

Think Youtube Copyright Infringement claims. Since they own the IP, they're allowed to say "no" to whatever is put on internet.

That said, something doesn't add up.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Check this out. He's open to 5 starters instead of 3, which is good news.

EDIT: @ HeroMystic I agree something's a bit fishy, especially given that there's a means within the game to prevent any given BGM from playing on a stage. I wouldn't mind so much if we had something more solid to go on than just "it's the music" but I guess the fact that we know even that much is an improvement over the normal state of affairs.

 

[Ulevo]

I definitely think that the timer could go to 6 or 7 minutes. The loss of stages like Wuhu is unfortunate, but not the worst thing in the world. I'm fine with the stage list otherwise. People are stating that only 3 neutrals gives an unfair advantage to the person picking 2nd, and I understand that, but there is no suitable 5th starter. Duck Hunt is not starter material, nor is Lylat Cruise, and everything else doesn't even come close.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, let's work our way through this.

Confirmed starters: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville

Others: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Town & City

Town & City seems like a shoo-in for starter material, so let's assume it gets the nod. From the rest, I'm actually going to dip into Melee and Brawl a bit and note that Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island were both starters. They feature Shy Guys flying around that can potentially disrupt projectiles, and Randall/Support Ghost to catch players. Duck Hunt is actually pretty close to these. The ducks are no more or less intrusive than the Shy Guys, and the dog is actually more predictable than the Support Ghost, both in terms of timing and location. It seems like solid starter material to me if Lylat Cruise's ledges are really that unpalatable.

 

[Balgorxz]

skyloft and customs should be in, the timer is alright smash games take too much time for a fighting game.

 

[shapular]

I guess the root of my confusion is that they have enough of a license to put the music in the game to begin with, but now that they're sponsoring a tournament (I assume so otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue) they can't let it play? IANAL but seriously, WTF?

I think it's similar to the issue that apparently prevented Brawl from being at MLG last year.

I think 2 stocks 5 minutes is fine. Stocks shouldn't be lasting 3 minutes anyway.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think it's similar to the issue that apparently prevented Brawl from being at MLG last year.

I think 2 stocks 5 minutes is fine. Stocks shouldn't be lasting 3 minutes anyway.

I'm unfamiliar with this story, enlighten me?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He doesn't want customs at EVO because he hasn't practiced with them on, and I doubt any national tournament runners have done so either.

Adapt or get left behind. National players should have known customs were going to pop up and practiced with them, or at least gained knowledge about them before. Its their own fault if they haven't bothered with them at all.

Stage list:

Neutral: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise

CP: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halbred

Lets make it happen. Or switch Lylat Cruise for Duck Hunt. I don't particularly care either way, though I do feel that Lylat Cruise is a better choice for finding a truly neutral stage between two characters, DH too similar to FD for my tastes.

BF = Static, platforms
FD = Static, no platforms
Smashville = Mobile singular horizontal platform
T&C = Platforms coming and going, goes in different directions
Lylat Cruise = Static number and location of platforms, entire stage tilts
DH = Mostly static platforms all on one side, other side plays largely like FD, changes Z-Axis which changes some moves

 

[Ulevo]

Well, let's work our way through this.

Confirmed starters: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville

Others: Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Town & City

Town & City seems like a shoo-in for starter material, so let's assume it gets the nod. From the rest, I'm actually going to dip into Melee and Brawl a bit and note that Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island were both starters. They feature Shy Guys flying around that can potentially disrupt projectiles, and Randall/Support Ghost to catch players. Duck Hunt is actually pretty close to these. The ducks are no more or less intrusive than the Shy Guys, and the dog is actually more predictable than the Support Ghost, both in terms of timing and location. It seems like solid starter material to me if Lylat Cruise's ledges are really that unpalatable.

Randall didn't interfere with the integrity of the neutral game. The worst offenses it committed was saving an otherwise dead player. I know that DHG is patterned, but it's still a rather inconvenient obstacle. Also, the ducks are far more prevalent than Shy Guys are on YI. Add to that the size of the stage and the fact that the trees to the left can allow certain characters to abuse other characters in terms of vertical options, and I do not agree with this being a starter.

As far as Lylat is concerned, it's too harsh for characters with poor recovery, and the stage tilt by itself on stage is an advantage in many match ups.

I totally think T&C is a top notch neutral, but we don't have a viable 5th in my opinion.

 

[Thinkaman]

Randall didn't interfere with the integrity of the neutral game. The worst offenses it committed was saving an otherwise dead player. I know that DHG is patterned, but it's still a rather inconvenient obstacle. Also, the ducks are far more prevalent than Shy Guys are on YI. Add to that the size of the stage and the fact that the trees to the left can allow certain characters to abuse other characters in terms of vertical options, and I do not agree with this being a starter.

As far as Lylat is concerned, it's too harsh for characters with poor recovery, and the stage tilt by itself on stage is an advantage in many match ups.

I totally think T&C is a top notch neutral, but we don't have a viable 5th in my opinion.

I am unconvinced that the imperfections of Lylat outweigh the serious striking issues of having only 3 starters.

Keep in mind that almost no game 1s are actually going to end up on Lylat if it is a starter, least of all in a matchup it skews--anyone who cares will strike it.

For most characters, this makes zero difference.

Then you have guys like Little Mac, where Smashville and Battlefield are two of his worst stages. (But T&C is one of his very best, and Lylat is pretty good too.)

 

[Neoleo21]

I'm quite disappointed with the stage list, but at least with an odd number of Stages we can at least suggest FLSS as the stage selection method.

I don't like 2 stock, but thank god Wizard didn't make it 4 minutes.

Keep Coaching minimal please.

The possibility of custom moves at EVO terrifies me and excites me at the same time.

 

[Ulevo]

To add to this, now that I'm considering it, I really don't see the need for five starters. Three is fine given the ones available. Here's my reasoning: Smashville can be considered the neutral stage. It is the perfect medium between Final Destination and Battlefield. Players will typically want to either go to either Battlefield, or Final Destination, but not both, while still being okay with Smashville as the alternative choice. So let's give some scenarios:

Player A: Wants to go to Battlefield preferably, but is fine with Smashville.

Player B: Wants to go to Final Destination, but is fine with Smashville.

Player A gets the first ban. They ban Final Destination. Arguably this gives Player B the advantage, but because Battlefield favors Player A, and Smashville is at worst a fair choice, Player A won't lose out by picking first.

Player B bans 2nd. If Player A bans Battlefield or Smashville, they get what they want. If they ban Final Destination, at worst they go to Smashville.

The tl;dr of this is that a lot of times games are going to wind up on Smashville. From a variety perspective, this might not seem very pleasing. But it is infinitely better, in my opinion, than having two Smashvilles in our starter roster, and one that heavily biases certain characters.

Also, let's face it. People usually go to Smashville anyway.

I am unconvinced that the imperfections of Lylat outweigh the serious striking issues of having only 3 starters.

Keep in mind that almost no game 1s are actually going to end up on Lylat if it is a starter, least of all in a matchup it skews--anyone who cares will strike it.

For most characters, this makes zero difference.

Then you have guys like Little Mac, where Smashville and Battlefield are two of his worst stages. (But T&C is one of his very best, and Lylat is pretty good too.)

Well, I just laid out why there aren't serious striking issues by only having three starters. But I think the fact that you just said that no one is going to actually go to Lylat outlines the fact that Lylat as a starter is a problem. And it does make a difference because it means that someone is going to have to waste their ban on it, depending on who gets first ban.

Also, I'm not convinced Little Mac enjoys Lylat. The stage layout is nice, but it hurts his recovery even more so.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

I have to disagree with ZeRo's thoughts on custom moves. We are already trying out custom tournaments in the coming weeks with upcoming events like Xanadu, Smash Attack, and Shockwave making them legal. If we don't make them legal now, when will we?

 

[Thinkaman]

To add to this, now that I'm considering it, I really don't see the need for five starters. Three is fine given the ones available. Here's my reasoning: Smashville can be considered the neutral stage. It is the perfect medium between Final Destination and Battlefield. Players will typically want to either go to either Battlefield, or Final Destination, but not both, while still being okay with Smashville as the alternative choice.

But this is only true in cases where Smashville is actually the perfect neutral, which isn't always the case.

Little Mac is again the easiest example. Of the five stages being discussed, it is FAR AND AWAY his worst.

 

[Ulevo]

I have to disagree with ZeRo's thoughts on custom moves. We are already trying out custom tournaments in the coming weeks with upcoming events like Xanadu, Smash Attack, and Shockwave making them legal. If we don't make them legal now, when will we?

Keep in mind this is the same player that complained about Lucario being nonsense.

I don't have anything against ZeRo, and he's a great player, but I've learned to not take top player impressions within our community very seriously 100% of the time.

But this is only true in cases where Smashville is actually the perfect neutral, which isn't always the case.

Little Mac is again the easiest example. Of the five stages being discussed, it is FAR AND AWAY his worst.

Let's be real, it's not perfect, but it's about as close to perfect as we're ever going to get. When was the last time you ever got taken to Smashville and said "Oh no, not Smashville, this is not good for my main." Pretty much never.

All I am saying is that the scenarios that apply with these three stages as starters are way more fair than the potential situations arising from having the alternative five stage choices.

 

[deepseadiva]

I have to disagree with ZeRo's thoughts on custom moves. We are already trying out custom tournaments in the coming weeks with upcoming events like Xanadu, Smash Attack, and Shockwave making them legal. If we don't make them legal now, when will we?

Change is always better done tomorrow and not today.

 

[webbedspace]

The tl;dr of this is that a lot of times games are going to wind up on Smashville. From a variety perspective, this might not seem very pleasing. But it is infinitely better, in my opinion, than having two Smashvilles in our starter roster, and one that heavily biases certain characters.

Look, Smashville + Town & City is not "two Smashvilles". T&C spends around 66% of its time in two very un-Smashville layouts. (And the City one is not really another Smashville either, considering it's constantly symmetrical and the real Smashville isn't.)

If anything, I'd argue that T&C is the true "neutral stage" (if "neutral" is even a thing a single isolated stage can be, which many doubt) because the transformations mean that it literally becomes Battlefield-ish and FD-ish for a portion of the match, rather than solely occupying some wishy-washy average between them.

(I privately think many people who consider Smashville "neutral" are slightly underestimating the effects the moving platform has when it nears the blast lines. Not all of the cast can capitalise on gleaning early throw-kills or smash-kills from there, and those who can are very happy with themselves.)

 

[Ulevo]

Look, Smashville + Town & City is not "two Smashvilles". T&C spends around 66% of its time in two very un-Smashville layouts.

If anything, I'd argue that T&C is the true "neutral stage" (if "neutral" is even a thing a single isolated stage can be, which many doubt) because the transformations mean that it literally becomes Battlefield-ish and FD-ish for a portion of the match, rather than solely occupying some wishy-washy average between them.

(I privately think many people who consider Smashville "neutral" are slightly underestimating the effects the moving platform has when it nears the blast lines. Not all of the cast can capitalise on gleaning early throw-kills or smash-kills from there, and those who can are very happy with themselves.)

I feel T&C spends too much of its time being a Final Destination clone. Add to that that it has one of the lowest ceilings in the game. This has me believe its not as neutral as Smashville. That being said, I don't think this part of the argument is particularly important since my gripe is not with T&C but with the fifth stage that accompanies it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel T&C spends too much of its time being a Final Destination clone. Add to that that it has one of the lowest ceilings in the game. This has me believe its not as neutral as Smashville. That being said, I don't think this part of the argument is particularly important since my gripe is not with T&C but with the fifth stage that accompanies it.

T&C spends 30 seconds each in its town and city forms and takes 10 seconds to move between the two. Thus in a full cycle it spends 30 seconds in the town, 30 seconds in the city, and 20 seconds between them, split into two 10-second sections. That's 25% as a slightly smaller FD.

 

[Ulevo]

T&C spends 30 seconds each in its town and city forms and takes 10 seconds to move between the two. Thus in a full cycle it spends 30 seconds in the town, 30 seconds in the city, and 20 seconds between them, split into two 10-second sections. That's 25% as a slightly smaller FD.

The town portion of the stage, given the height of the platforms, acts as a pseudo Final Destination in many match ups for many characters. Add in the 10 second transition from city to town, and the 10 second transition after back to city , and that's 50 seconds. That's a lot of time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The town portion of the stage, given the height of the platforms, acts as a pseudo Final Destination in many match ups for many characters. Add in the 10 second transition from city to town, and the 10 second transition after back to city , and that's 50 seconds. That's a lot of time.

Every character except Ganondorf and Little Mac can reach the side platforms in the town form with their double jump. The center platform also rises and falls on a 10 second cycle, its lowest point being low enough for all characters to reach easily. I disagree that it's similar to FD, full stop.