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Tekken Mafia | Now with the real endgame flavour.... Who won?

Swiss

Smash Lord
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Oct 27, 2008
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Don't get mad - get Swiss
Oh Kuz, my offer? I hammer D1 if assume control of D3 lynch.

Doc can wifom us 'till we die. Though you hammer D2. This does not prevent any cops actioning you or I and we can request you be copped.

^ Want all thoughts on this. I would still, clearly, prefer immunity later.
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
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Oct 27, 2008
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Don't get mad - get Swiss
NA here, sad day

y so much RP to switch region i dont even know
Same with new rune pages - total rip off. One in maybe 50 players has an actual support rune page. I don't. Have 1 AD carry, 1 AD Jungle, 1 Tanky AS/Armour (great for jungle Shen), 1 AP carry - and one 'meh' page for when I have to support/solotop. Some hp, some ap, some ad. I forget.
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
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Oct 27, 2008
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Don't get mad - get Swiss
Explain why discussing the hammer isn't content.

I thought it useful especially considering the level of response it gave before the game even started.

If three townreads at this stage does not please Your Grace, please - teach me.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
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0
Location
Korf | Guz
I disliked the post myself, was trying to think of a way to word my response when Adum posted his. The tone, though I dislike the word in this case, was distasteful. I agree with his perception if not his analysis.
I don't believe you.

Aha.

This is the post I was mulling over.

Let's be blunt here. Your reasoning for wanting me to hammer is that I need to vulnerable enough to ensure I do not reach LyLo as you believe that no town is competent enough to lynch me. This is the crux.
Correct.

My issue is thus, you wish me to compromise my life - and in return give me the choice of the weakest lynch of the game. Of course, regardless of my faction I want immunity for when I chose, but this trade works not to be "pro town" but simply "anti-Swiss".
You do realize you're simply re-stating what I've said but at a different angle. Clearly the proposal is "anti-Swiss" as I feel you're the most dangerous player here. This proposal is also clearly "anti-Kuz" for my subsequent trade for all the same reasons. Thing is, though you may try and separate these distinctions from "pro-town," this is not the case. As I've stated numerous times, inhibiting yourself in such a fashion hurts you much more as scum than it does as town. As town, if you play well (which you havn't at all thus far), you'll likely survive from doc protects. As scum you'll likely be picked off in the absence of one. You dying in such a fashion is scum is way more detrimental to that scum faction than dying as town is to the town one, so this "anti-Swiss" proposal is analogous with an "pro-town" one. Same goes for me.

You are attempting to, as you say, safeguard town against me - but you do this by compromising my duration in this game and not by constraining my potential alignment. You have not suggested I be copped, tracked, watched, masoned, time travelled, sent a letter to name-copped etc etc etc (the "pro town clear"). I dislike the process this takes me down.
@Bold: Nice try at twisting my intentions, but that's simply wrong.

I have no qualms with any of those things happening. As I have no qualms with any of those investigatives targeting myself as well. Ignoring the fact that scum often have PRs to negate those types of investigatives, especially if directed, it wouldn't be such a bad thing to have multiple checks in place, yeah?

You then offer your immunity up D2 - which I like as a sentiment. But if you know are town what does this two? Cripple two of our strongest to decrease the probability potential ScumSwiss can win.
It doesn't cripple me all that much and it gives me one more variable to take you down. Way more pro-town than not.
 

#HBC | Kary

Fiend of Fire
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그루그 화산
You should wagon Ditz. What is your avvy and why did you choose it? I'd like to hear more on why we aren't aligned - as opposed to not scumbuddies. I would not have drawn this conclusion - though admit bias.
Ugh, I have apparently mis-worded something again. Let me check.

As to their alignments, I suspect Kuz/Swiss aren't aligned, but beyond that I can't really say.
Yeah, I have.
The impression I got was that Kuz/Swiss were not aware of one another's alignments, because their exchanges seemed to be genuinely trying to get a 'feel' for one another. So yeah, I actually meant scumbuddies (and not masons etc. etc.) By contrast I could still see either of them as being partnered with Adum.
I don't really have any clues as to whether any of the three are scum, but yeah, I don't think Kuz/Swiss are knowingly partners. Might re-read the whole thing once I've better reads on any one of them.

You should wagon Ditz. What is your avvy and why did you choose it? I'd like to hear more on why we aren't aligned - as opposed to not scumbuddies. I would not have drawn this conclusion - though admit bias.
1. I'll think about it.
2. The avatar is a picture of a marilith mini by reaper miniatures. It's the best picture of a marilith that I could find; it has a nice silhouette and it's safe for work. I chose a picture of a marilith because Kary is a marilith.
3. Hopefully I've cleared up that last point. Also, I'm going to take it that you have a town read on Toastin'/Kuz.
___________________________________________________________
I seem to remember Kary being intelligent and thorough from the Newbie. I hope this holds true.
I realised (in the shower of all places) that while this sounds like a compliment from Kuz, it could be him setting me up for a fall! Now people expect my play to meet certain standards :ohwell:

Need to re-read since Day 1 start. People need to be here, though.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
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0
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Korf | Guz
Finally, I hate when games start before they actually start. Too much room for RVS Wifom that I don't get to follow.
There was neither any RVS (except Laundry) nor WIFOM utilized in the pregame. In fact, some fairly important mechanic discussion took place that could greatly influence your read on a few players. Why are you trying to put on this bravado and dismiss its legitimacy? You're usually much more open-minded than this. Scum.
 

#HBC | Kary

Fiend of Fire
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그루그 화산
FFS :mad:

EBWOP: 'not scumbuddies' i.e:

The impression I got was that Kuz/Swiss were not aware of one another's alignments, because their exchanges seemed to be genuinely trying to get a 'feel' for one another. So yeah, I actually meant not scumbuddies (and not masons etc. etc.) By contrast I could still see either of them as being partnered with Adum.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

Smash Rookie
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Mar 29, 2011
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0
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Korf | Guz
Gut feeling is a dislike of your slot and Adum for putting all this wifom out right out of the gate and skipping all forms of RVS I'm familiar with.
There was no wifom involved. Adumb is incorrectly trying to capitalize on a subtly. He's wrong and slightly obtuse but he's certainly giving a stance and information to judge his alignment off. Yet your reasoning for disliking our slots is simply because our pre-game banter has "skipped all forms of RVS you're familiar with." Gross.

Dislike that some people already claim a scum read on me from said dislike of pre-game posting. We'll see where they go with it though. (I don't really know since I don't know how to take pre-game stuff, could be town intent from seeing me be lazy, otherwise looking for easy targets. We'll know eventually)
Why is pregame content any different from when the game actually starts. From the moment we receive our role PMs our posts will have some reflection of our alignment so the information is valid. You vapidly dismissal of reading 4 pages just because its pre-game looks like scum obstinance rather than actual townie laziness.

I also heavily dislike that you try and take a stance against your detractors but then immediately dismiss its significance. "I dislike that people find me scummy for my actions, but that could just be town intent and I don't know what I'm talking about. We'll see eventually." Definition of fence-sitting.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

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Korf | Guz
1. Is it fair to say this is the thrust of your argument? (the above quote)
2. How well are you able to read Swiss?
3. Do you intend to go through in trading Swiss something for him being the hammer on a given day?
1. Indeed it is. From my extensive experience playing against Swiss. There have been numerous times in endgame where he should have been pinned against all measure but he's still wriggled out of it with a grand bravado.
2. Fairly well, I'd say. He's one of the tougher players to read for sure, though.
3. Of course - my own immunity.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

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Congratulations, you've figured out why I don't like pre-game stuff. People somehow use it to justify things ahead of time. Game started, I'm here. If you have a problem with what my actual opinions are, say so, otherwise come off it. You're flat proving to me it was the right decision and pre-game is beyond my scope by voting me for it.
I have a huge problem with what your actual opinions are and I don't think you would have formed them in this game had you been town aligned.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

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Oh Kuz, my offer? I hammer D1 if assume control of D3 lynch.

Doc can wifom us 'till we die. Though you hammer D2. This does not prevent any cops actioning you or I and we can request you be copped.

^ Want all thoughts on this. I would still, clearly, prefer immunity later.
How about you your immunity D1, mine D2 and doc wifom between us until we see a reason for him to do otherwise and we'll skip giving anyone the lynch on a given Day.

Sound good? Glad to hear it.
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
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Don't get mad - get Swiss
Kuz, calm down and reign it in. It does not become you.

I query why you are accusing me of being, yet advocate the doc wifom his protect between us.

I'll comment tonight.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

BRoomer
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Anyone who thinks that someone other than me should be the D1 hammer is obvscum4life.

Like for real learn your SWF history scrubs I obvs need it more than all you and imma pretty much carry dis game so yeah like #swaggastepatme

Ddietz wagon is sweet and gettin me closer to dat hamma so choo choo mo****as
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

Smash Rookie
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Korf | Guz
Kuz, calm down and reign it in. It does not become you.

I query why you are accusing me of being, yet advocate the doc wifom his protect between us.

I'll comment tonight.
I'm quite calm. Please respond to my posts instead of poking at my credibility. Thanks.

I've made it clear that he should WIFOM between us provided you've been playing well. As it stands, you havn't so I would have the doc choose different targets.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Vote: toastin

@Swiss: Your not voting him because while his reponses were bad they are frustrated by some the nonsense that went on and didn't wanna delve into something that was pregame before a full roaster was here.

He didn't think there was legit content and thinks a lot of pregame talk was meaningless.

That's my interpretation.

:phone:
 

Fynal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
240
V/LA until Saturday night

i have a calc 2 proficiency this Saturday that i really really REALLY need to pass for the sake of my schedule next year, and some of this crap is much harder than i expected. i'll try to keep up i guess, but i have to study for this

@DH, Fynal: what is your read on Swiss? Thoughts on my hammer proposal?

@July: Can I get your read on Swiss and Adumb, please?

Groceries bbl
my read on swiss is null-town, because his play feels different than his play at the start of KvD (i realize thats a terrible game to judge off of, but the start wasn't bad iirc), though hell if i know really

i like your newest hammer proposal over swiss's wanting D3 lynch. the later in the game, the less comfortable i am with one player deciding the lynch, i feel like it works on like D1 because D1 lynches are normally pretty random
 

Pink Lemonade

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Feb 28, 2011
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Ran|July
Kuz for d1 lynch.


This entire thing reeks of a strong scum trying to pull d1 control. Too forced and uncomfortable.


The "information to the contrary" comment feels especially off, like he's scared of me actually having information that confirms it.
I’ve read through a lot of your posts commenting on how you enjoy RVS and you were upset that we moved out of it so quickly, but I actually felt this post is where we moved out of RVS and things shifted from RVS to serious discussion for the most part. This reads as a serious proposal and its only post #79. At this time, were you actually serious about a Kuz lynch?

Also, for the bolded, it seems significant that Kuz and Swiss were putting their attention on controlling each other and not the thread itself. It reads to me as power players trying to control each other rather than to control the entire thread, which is something I’d expect from both of them as town or scum.

K so like, dreads are probably not happening toDay, so let's get down to it:

I don't know if I really follow the whole proposal thing, I'll have Kuz gimme a rundown on what happened with that. But here:



It tickles me funny seeing that Swiss is SO disheartened by Kuz' disdain of his plan of action wrt the hammer that he's going to Kary to get his weigh in on it. But ultimately, hey, it's just getting another opinion. But hey @Adumb do you see THE SUBTLETY DISPLAYED?! "Kuz seems intent on having me waste my immunity." Why word it like that if you're not looking to mold his opinion to your scum read that you apparently don't have according to your 131? I'm not digging it.

So far that's my only scum vibe. Adumb reads as meatriding to me, but probably town from the way he's been going at it.
I like this post by Gorf and the Gorf/Swiss interactions over it. Even though Swiss explains the “Kuz seems intent on having me waste my immunity” comment, I like that Gorf was looking at wording and picked up on something that could reveal intent, which Swiss then explained in this post:

Wait, forget that. You idiot.

I gave Kary bait to call Kuz scum or dig at him, he didn't play opportunistically. Hence townread on him in #82.

How the hell do you not know my early play by now?
The entire interaction seems natural and I like that Gorf was explicitly looking into Swiss’s intent. I believe that Swiss’s intent was to bait Kary as well, but he’d probably do that as scum or town so that’s a null tell.


Some stuff:

Kary town. Have to agree with Swiss here.

Ditz scum. He comes into this game, says he skimmed the thread, and yet still considers this to be "nonsense." How is this nonsense? He could easily come in and say something, but he opts not to.

Gord gives me bad vibes. The second half of his 149 reads as a pathetic attempt at dismissing what Adumb is saying.

Swiss:Thoughts on Gorf/Ditz?
DH, what are your thoughts on Swiss?

And you don’t like Gorf, but what do you think of the Kuz head of Toastin Dat Walrus?

This is mafia, nothing is ever 100%. I'm always open to the possibility I misread.

That said, I frankly find subtleties more reliable then major actions because anybody whose sufficiently skilled can take townie actions, but if you understand how the person thinks, as scum they will eventually make revealing subtle mistakes.
This is one of the few things that Ran and I have talked about and agreed on, but we both feel you are using this “subtleties” excuse to make a weakly substantiated push on Kuz. You’ve posted a lot about how you like RVS and how important subtleties are, but its convenient to help push your case on Kuz that is built completely on “subtelties”.

Hmm, a lot of **** happened. Let it be known I have a post coming.

Oh yeah, townreads on me, lol. I was going to say that it's not my style to out reads, but I got a town vibe off of Soup, so yeah going to have to change my playstyle again.

Uh, someone who's not really involved yet: please talk to me about Dark Horse, both his entrance and his interaction with Kuz, that'd be grand, thanks.

Also, general question, how important is it to let yourself be read in a game of mafia? I.e. should you make an effort to contribute in a way that people can read your alignment? In previous games I have put myself out there and hope people can see that I'm town... it doesn't always work, though.
DH’s entrance was fair enough, he touched on Jdeitz which most people hadn’t up to that point and he involved himself in the conversation with Kuz/Gorf so that’s a good sign. I think the DH and Kuz/Gorf not being scum together is a fair assumption for now, I don’t find either particularly scummy anyways. I would like to see DH comment on Adum more, though.

Also, for the general question, focus on scumhunting; this is a good playlist and if you demonstrate town intent people will pick up on it without you having to try and explicitly show people you are town.


Soup, what are your thoughts on Adum’s #200?

Gut feeling is a dislike of your slot and Adum for putting all this wifom out right out of the gate and skipping all forms of RVS I'm familiar with.

Dislike that some people already claim a scum read on me from said dislike of pre-game posting. We'll see where they go with it though. (I don't really know since I don't know how to take pre-game stuff, could be town intent from seeing me be lazy, otherwise looking for easy targets. We'll know eventually)
Elaborate on this please. What do you think of Kuz’s and Adum’s intent in skipping RVS? Also, Swiss also helped push the game immediately out of RVS, what are your thoughts on him?

Loaded question? Regardless
probably town because generally when I hate every post he makes, he turns out to be town.
All I remember from WL was a few pre-game comments, what exactly do you hate about his posts already?

I don't like the sequence of Nabe/TDW/Soup votes on JDeitz because I don’t think his posts have been particularly scummy, I think he genuinely doesn’t like pre-game and his comment has made him an easy target. TDW and Soup, why the votes now, only after Nabe put his vote down?

@July: Can I get your read on Swiss and Adumb, please?
I don’t like Adum this game. I feel like his comments about subtelties and liking RVS are just ways to justify his weak push on your slot, especially since he was one of the main culprits in pushing the game out of RVS to begin with.

As for Swiss, I like what he’s done so far, he’s interacted with most of the active player list and he’s been actively looking for intent, so he’s cautiously a town lean for me. I like the interactions between you/Gorf and Swiss, I think that you see having Swiss as vulnerable to be beneficial to town and he disagrees, which makes sense.

As for the hammer plan for toDay, right now it’s definitely not my focus, I’d like to see a strong player/asset to town get the immunity obviously, which right now is between you and Swiss (and maybe FF?) for me.


Vote: Adumbrodeus
 

Kataefi

*smoke machine*
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
3,377
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igloo
VOTE COUNT:

[3] Jdietz43: Nabe / Toastin' Dat Walrus / Яagnarock
[1] Toastin' Dat Walrus: Red Ruy
[1] adumbrodeus: Pink Lemonade

[0] -Masquerain-
[0] Яagnarock
[0] Dark Horse
[0] Kary
[0] Swiss
[0] Blazer
[0] DtJ Glyphmoney
[0] Nabe
[0] Red Ruy
[0] WashedLaundry
[0] Fynal
[0] frozenflame751
[0] Pink Lemonade

[11] Not Voting: -Masquerain- / adumbrodeus / Dark Horse / Kary / Swiss / Blazer / DtJ Glyphmoney / WashedLaundry / Fynal / frozenflame751 / Jdietz43

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch!
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

Smash Rookie
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Mar 29, 2011
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Korf | Guz
@July: My other half agreed with Nabe's reasoning for throwing a vote down (the posts that Nabe thought was scummy I further elaborated on in 247 and 250) and didn't feel the need to state any other reasoning than what Nabe provided. The fact that Nabe voted first is inconsequential, we both planned on placing it there from pregame.

I like that you sympathize with my situation wrt Adumb, but does Adumb's push really look like something scum would do in that position. He knows he's pushing off information that won't make him look good publicly. I'd be more inclined to think he's silently philating himself actually thinking he's caught on some suability rather than scum actually trying to strong-arm a lynch. He's most likely town.

Now on to Ditz, taking my 247 and 250 into context, what about his tone and bravado makes you think he's just misunderstood town instead of scum trying to seem disinterested?
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
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6,865
Pink Lemonade said:
I don’t like Adum this game. I feel like his comments about subtelties and liking RVS are just ways to justify his weak push on your slot, especially since he was one of the main culprits in pushing the game out of RVS to begin with.
I got the same feeling you did too at first place, but don't you think he wouldn't put this much attention on himself or go after a power player so early into the game? I felt he was fake about and just doing it to get a read off Kuz, but apparently he was being serious. Don't you agree with my points or do you still see it your own way?

I don't like the sequence of Nabe/TDW/Soup votes on JDeitz because I don’t think his posts have been particularly scummy, I think he genuinely doesn’t like pre-game and his comment has made him an easy target. TDW and Soup, why the votes now, only after Nabe put his vote down?
I hate feeling like a Sheep but Nabe made a legitimate point in his post and something that I overlooked.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Aug 21, 2007
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Tri-state area
I’ve read through a lot of your posts commenting on how you enjoy RVS and you were upset that we moved out of it so quickly, but I actually felt this post is where we moved out of RVS and things shifted from RVS to serious discussion for the most part. This reads as a serious proposal and its only post #79. At this time, were you actually serious about a Kuz lynch?

Also, for the bolded, it seems significant that Kuz and Swiss were putting their attention on controlling each other and not the thread itself. It reads to me as power players trying to control each other rather than to control the entire thread, which is something I’d expect from both of them as town or scum.
My estimation based on prior RVSes was that once kuz made that post that RVS was unsalvagable. Rather then vainly attempt it like I did in megaman and a place that shall not be mentioned, I chose to just run run with it.

Yes, I was serious.

And again, it wasn't that he did it, I entirely expected them to do something of that nature. Note that I didn't take the same stance on Swiss' even though he made a power play.

Why?

Look at what he's trying to do with it. He sets himself up to either deal with a serious rival or (at least what seemed to be intended) he'd just be able to laugh it off as RVS combined with prodding of swiss. The problem is it was tonally too serious, so it just doesn't mesh properly.

Hence, it seems wierd, uncomfortable, and forced.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Tri-state area
You caught Kata? Remind me how, I must not have been paying attention.
Yes, I recognized scum-kata. The rest of you didn't follow me, remember? Thankfully mafia dealt with him.

Hi everyone, what's up? Massive post by me, I'm afraid:



1. Do you seriously believe this? (the above quote)
2. Why aren't you giving Kuz the benefit of the doubt?
3. How are you going to play today beyond pushing a Kuz/Toastin' Lynch?
4. Would you consider Swiss' opening post a power play?
1. Yes
2. He hasn't given me any reason to believe otherwise.
3. Depends on what else happens.
4. Yes, but a power play in and of itself isn't scummy. He also didn't torpedo rvs [/salt]




You don't? I'd think there'd be some paper trails out there, tell me your town-reads.
Still early, haven't had much of an opportunity to draw connections.

WL for town

DH is scummy


Been a bit busy, will read more closely soon.



More on this.
His claim, I know I've mentioned my dumbtown tells before and I've had a poor record reading him relative to other weaker players.

It seems like the kind of thing a player at his level might throw out to get thrown in the noobtown pile, but also a stupid mistake he'd make as town.

Need to see more from him before I can make a decision.

Adum who's been reading for these tells longer? You or I?
No idea, honestly I think the first time I got to understand how you play was britches and hoes. When I started endorsing RVS was when I came to this mode of thinking.


Granted, this is one of the few times I explicitly made a case around it rather then finding it then working backwards.


> mfw no-one tells me why WL is town
Look at how he's playing, he was ridiculously comfortable in RVS


I've lynched off less (typo in someone's name) but convince me first.
You already have similar impressions off his initial post, his follow-up post was incredibly nervous. "Any information to the contrary" definitely reads as attempting to prep something to cover his *ss in case do or will have information to the contrary? Or it's simple role-fishing.

Then there's gorf's 196 and 197, no real discussion of the points against him, just empty attempts to discredit the people behind it, but most telling is that he doesn't attempt to discuss anything else that's going on.

This methods of empty discrediting without attempting to do anything useful seems to be gorf's primary contribution to the thread atm and suggests a player far more concerned with personal survival then actually being invested legitimately catching scum.


k
but, can you explain it to us?
Talked about above
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
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Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
Adumbrodeus said:
Still early, haven't had much of an opportunity to draw connections.

WL for town

DH is scummy


Been a bit busy, will read more closely soon.
WL town based on his joke posting in pre-game? Elaborate. You seem to be looking at how people are acting more than what people are saying this game Adum, you've based yourself around it actually.
 

Toastin Dat Walrus

Smash Rookie
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Mar 29, 2011
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0
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Korf | Guz
Vote: toastin

@Swiss: Your not voting him because while his reponses were bad they are frustrated by some the nonsense that went on and didn't wanna delve into something that was pregame before a full roaster was here.

He didn't think there was legit content and thinks a lot of pregame talk was meaningless.

That's my interpretation.

:phone:
Weird that's not how you spell JDietz.
 

#HBC | Kary

Fiend of Fire
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Don't have one. Haven't paid attention to Sakamoto-san yet.

I don't recall anything majorly positive. Certainly not anything I could call a town read at least.
1. Get me a Soup read, please. Shouldn't be that hard. If the read is null, w/e.
2. Tell me why you responded to Nabe's vote on you before you responded to me, given that you're not dealing with things in the order they appear in the thread.

3. What is your opinion on RVS as a phase of the game- do you find it useful? do you prefer a shorter or longer RVS phase?

Ta.
 

adumbrodeus

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WL town based on his joke posting in pre-game? Elaborate. You seem to be looking at how people are acting more than what people are saying this game Adum, you've based yourself around it actually.
You don't think that rvs joking tells you about people and their alignments?


Then why the heck do you participate?


Serious question.
 

#HBC | Kary

Fiend of Fire
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그루그 화산
It could be. Or it could be I was just giving you a compliment. You're town anyway so it doesn't matter.
I think you're doing this on purpose.

I don't follow. If you're setting me up for a fall, (which you don't deny, incidentally ;)), surely I should be aware of that, because it is presumably a scum-tell from you? Ergo, it does matter, and the fact that i'm town has nothing to do with it?
________________________________________________________
Anyone who thinks that someone other than me should be the D1 hammer is obvscum4life.
How do you feel about either Toastin' or Swiss having the hammer D1? D2?
___________________________________________________________
I'm quite calm. Please respond to my posts instead of poking at my credibility. Thanks.

I've made it clear that he should WIFOM between us provided you've been playing well. As it stands, you havn't so I would have the doc choose different targets.
I lol'd.
_____________________________________________________________

On a slightly more serious note, if the argument for Swiss/Toastin' having the hammer early is that it lessens the threat they pose as scum, as it lessens the value of the protection, why should we let either of them have the hammer in the first place? In fact, why don't we just lynch them over the first two days?
Why are they even arguing over what is a 'waste' of immunity if the premise for either of them having immunity Day 1/Day 2 also suggests they probably shouldn't have the hammer at all?
Is it just that they want the cool night-kill immunity for themselves? :surprised:

Right now, I'm not against either of them having the hammer, but I'm not sure that I buy the argument for them having the hammer in the first place.
I might try and think up some good criteria for being a hammer candidate, we'll see.
________________________________________________________________

@Red Ryu: I heard you swore off pulling gambits etc. Is this true? What would you say counts as a gambit, as opposed to say a bluff etc. ?
 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
3,739
@ DH Analyse Ditz' reaction in terms of whether he is flustered, relaxed etc
It's smug, and...elitist? Something like that. What's really funny is that he doesn't really defend himself: He rather dismisses it, using his tone.

DH, what are your thoughts on Swiss?
Leaning Town. To put it bluntly, he's acting like Swiss (Leading town, etc etc.)I feel as though the majority of what he's talking about is the hammer, which is mechanics.

And you don’t like Gorf, but what do you think of the Kuz head of Toastin Dat Walrus?

Not much, I remember him attempting to power grab. Consider him scum by default, due to gorf.
 

Dooms

KY/KP Joey
Joined
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Messages
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Doomsyplusle
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Okay Kuz, you asked to read me earlier, so let me open my book to you!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, just for the sake of talking about our voting mechanic, I believe that we should nominate players to get hammer with a separate vote counter or something to keep track of. Essentially, we can use to the mechanic to protect pro-town players from NKs.

I don't have a specific nomination right now so play good and maybe you'll be blessed with the immunity.
41 makes me put Soup in the townie category, and I agree that we
should nominate the person hammering. He shows general town concern
with the statement.

It won't work if everyone isn't okay with it. I'm not okay with it. Problem solved.
48 I don’t understand how that wouldn’t work if everyone isn’t okay with it. If people don’t share their opinion on who gets hammer, then they simply just don’t have a say, and that isn’t our choice as a town. If a person isn’t willing to share their thoughts on who gets hammer, then how is that the town’s fault? What do you plan on doing for hammer distribution?

Btw swiss, if it's d3 and we're both alive the answer is: If we're not at each others' throats, we're both town. If we are at each others' throats then we both need to be lynched.
52 Permission to ignore Adumb for the rest of the game (and forever after)?

@Swiss

Considering my reads have been ****, might as well.

Vote: WashedLaundry
54 Dark Horse, are you saying that the reads you already tried to form seem ****ty or are you saying that you just can’t read people? Lol

Analyze this for any and all ulterior motives but accept anyway because it would hinder you much more as scum than as town.
70 I don’t think I can understand what Kuz is doing. This seems pretty ******** lol. It looks like something that could be turned against Swiss no matter which way he answers, which is pretty odd…

Kuz for d1 lynch.


This entire thing reeks of a strong scum trying to pull d1 control. Too forced and uncomfortable.


The "information to the contrary" comment feels especially off, like he's scared of me actually having information that confirms it.
79 While I don’t like Kuz in the Kuz v Swiss, I don’t like Adumb, either. This post seems very off. “too forced and uncomfortable” is very poorly described and it seems like bs reasoning just to point the suspicion towards Kuz. I also don’t understand how the “information to the contrary” comment is fearful of information at all. It seems more like he’s just asking if you have any proof behind reasoning. Not sure if he’d be fearful when there haven’t been any possible night actions going about so far in the game. Don’t like Adumb.

Subtleties in how people talk tell the story more then any actual actions. That's why I've always appreciated rvs so much.


I know you're scum kuz, you need to die.
83 is worse than 79. No detail once again (and before people say that he doesn’t need to define his scum read so early, let it be known that if you’re saying that someone is certain scum, then it needs to be defined in my opinion in order to get an actual lynch going on said player).

I knew you were gonna on that, but while I may not be s proficient at it, it's always been my philosophy. We've talked about this before and you know I've had a long love affair with RVS.




I implied nothing, I said it outright.
91 not sure if Adumb is dumb or scum… Since he’s supposed to be one of the “better” players, is it safe to assume that he’s scum, Swiss/Kuz?

On further consideration, the nervousness is more likely a result of the possibility for me to have a way to quick confirm once I suspect rather then me actually having the information at hand.


I'd exchange your lynch for swiss' possible NK immunity in a heartbeat.
95 Adumb backs down and changes his reasoning here. I don’t like this at all. Being fearful of possibly gaining information is completely different from having the information, and this definitely looks like a BS way of changing your reasoning to make yourself look more convincing. I also don’t understand how you’d be so sure of yourself if this is the only thing you’ve talked about so far if he wasn’t fearful of you already possessing information. Can you tell me why scum would be afraid of specifically you possibly being able to gain information later on In the game, something that is completely irrelevant during the time of Kuz’ post?

If we exchange it for you being lynched d1, yes.


Otherwise no, not as my reads stand at present.
101 Why would you want Swiss to hammer only if it was the Kuz lynch, Adumb?

The "information to the contrary" comment feels especially off, like he's scared of me actually having information that confirms it.
Swiss, would you lynch Adumb off this?[/QUOTE]

No.

The point of what Adum is saying is not that he thinks you overtly were genuinely scared he had information, but rather the confrontation which had a tone or flavour to it which rings off.

Also to addressing you, what do you want? All you're doing is pressuring me to see if I'll give in to wasting my immunity so you can try and read me - whilst also calling me scum overtly in thread to try and weaken my thread power and irritate me. I'm not an imbecile.

If you truly thought me scum you would have voted me or made action to try and rally other players.

RR I mean for you to sheep my vote but not my reads.

Just arrived at work so eta further posts - 12 hours[/QUOTE]

127 Are you sure? His responses said pretty clearly that he wasn’t “implying” it, rather saying it straight forwardly, and he also tried to change his reasoning from this to something else similar, which shows that he had this reasoning in the first place. Do you agree with Adumb if you believe that this is his reasoning?

Swiss, would you lynch Adumb off this?
No.

The point of what Adum is saying is not that he thinks you overtly were genuinely scared he had information, but rather the confrontation which had a tone or flavour to it which rings off.[/QUOTE]

Actually I sort of did, at least initially. Fear is irrational after all and even if after intellectual consideration he realized it was extremely unlikely that doesn't mean that he didn't react to my post before really thinking.

But in practical terms it could just be general nervousness due to calling out his alignment, asking if I have information to the contrary seems really off and nervous for a townie, the only other explanation is that he was outright role fishing.[/QUOTE]

132 So you’re assuming that Kuz is scum based on an “on occasion” type of thing? :v. I think I’m gonna put my vote here lol.

Vote: WL

Ranked first, then this.
137 Whyyyy Ryuuuuu QQQQQQQ

His response to you wasn't even remotely accurate with what was going on though iirc. He was telling you that Kuz wouldn't be taking away your protection (which, in that scenario, is simply wrong) and that was it. If you were really looking to bait em into calling our slot scum, I imagine you'd have clarified and restated the question, but you were just... cool with it. And besides, how is Kary's 65 not a town tell in and of itself.

@Adumb the pic was a cowboy riding on a horse with a penis for a head. It just seems that you're using your like of Swiss, the person, to find our slot scummy because we're not necessarily in compliance with Swiss, the player.

Breakfast.
149 I don’t like Gordito in his Adumb part of the post. I don’t see how this comes into play at all. Explain, Gord?

Some stuff:

Kary town. Have to agree with Swiss here.

Ditz scum. He comes into this game, says he skimmed the thread, and yet still considers this to be "nonsense." How is this nonsense? He could easily come in and say something, but he opts not to.

Gord gives me bad vibes. The second half of his 149 reads as a pathetic attempt at dismissing what Adumb is saying.

Swiss:Thoughts on Gorf/Ditz?
154 Lol. Calls Ditz scum for that, but doesn’t call me out for that when I’ve said something along those lines twice so far in the game. :smirk:

Actually I'm entirely willing to re-examine my read later.


Here's the thing, these posts by you are outright scummy.






That is evidence, it's just evidence you've never bothered to look for.



I'm deadly serious, the "kuz, you're scum aren't you" was an invitation for him to say something else incriminating as well as an expression of my opinions of the slot.

Also, don't really have thoughts on potential scummates yet.
154 Lol. Calls Ditz scum for that, but doesn’t call me out for that when I’ve said something along those lines twice so far in the game. :smirk:

More on this.

Adum who's been reading for these tells longer? You or I?

> mfw no-one tells me why WL is town



Discuss why ScumDitz would openly say this as opposed to lurk.

Idiot, or scummy vibes?

Skip/straight null




I disliked the post myself, was trying to think of a way to word my response when Adum posted his. The tone, though I dislike the word in this case, was distasteful. I agree with his perception if not his analysis.



I've lynched off less (typo in someone's name) but convince me first.




Independent actions is fine with me. Like I said earlier, we will likely pin Gord and react accordingly with the slot.



No :(

I disgust myself by using an emoticon.



Quote me your tell posts.

nvm

I like Fynal




Aha.

This is the post I was mulling over.

Let's be blunt here. Your reasoning for wanting me to hammer is that I need to vulnerable enough to ensure I do not reach LyLo as you believe that no town is competent enough to lynch me. This is the crux.

My issue is thus, you wish me to compromise my life - and in return give me the choice of the weakest lynch of the game. Of course, regardless of my faction I want immunity for when I chose, but this trade works not to be "pro town" but simply "anti-Swiss".

You are attempting to, as you say, safeguard town against me - but you do this by compromising my duration in this game and not by constraining my potential alignment. You have not suggested I be copped, tracked, watched, masoned, time travelled, sent a letter to name-copped etc etc etc (the "pro town clear"). I dislike the process this takes me down.

You then offer your immunity up D2 - which I like as a sentiment. But if you know are town what does this two? Cripple two of our strongest to decrease the probability potential ScumSwiss can win.

I will not trade my immunity for my choice of D1 lynch. My proposal is as follows and I do not wish to have to succumb to it.

I will, if necessary, offer my immunity D1 for the lynch D3. I am to have the lynch D3 without fail (we can haggle to a potential post humous arrangement, but the intent is the same), provided it is not LyLo and there is no un-CC'd scumclaim against me. To go without saying, I am to be doc'd without fail. D1 and D2 lynches are to proceed as norm and Kuz is not currently required to use his immunity.

You are placing me in a highly undesirable and short lived situation simply because you believe I am too great a threat as scum. I would suggest that instead of using your energy limiting my play as either faction you attempt to read my alignment and play accordingly.

If no other players feel the same way as you do, and instead feel that we can pressure and read me without crippling my town and scum play then I will be ignoring both proposals. I sincerely hope this is the case, though I would be interested to see how it pans out.

If town; I will likely die, though we have several days of my iut-

Come, Child. See the light



And Town Swiss?

Edit; I may choose to accept original deal if circumstances appeal though this is unlikely, I hope.

>mfw when I have to spend the entire of D1 explaining this post


Kuz/guys ignore my entire offer section.

I just repeated your offer except trading lynch choice to D3, didn't I? Ignore unfinished sentences, I hadn't finished wording.

Kuz ignore this end section, I'll look at it tomorrow morning. Utterly shattered. My initial issues can be read as gold, though. Ignore the mechanics section. Would delete but I have nice ideas, I'm sure.
210 Swiss’ huge post @ kuz makes me feel that he’s town. Logic is good, it produces the best result for the town, and in the end it seems like the best strategy with the highest possible success rate for town.

"I won't be reading pregame"
"I hate games with content in pregame"
"I have reads based on what I've read of the pregame content"

Vote: Jdietz43
225 I can’t tell if this is serious or not based on his Kuz votes lol. Don’t agree with it if it really is serious. He already stated that he skimmed pre-game, and it’s pretty obvious that you can get gut reads from something like that. Just because he changed his mind doesn’t mean that he’s scum when it comes to choosing/not choosing to read a part of the game.

Congratulations, you've figured out why I don't like pre-game stuff. People somehow use it to justify things ahead of time. Game started, I'm here. If you have a problem with what my actual opinions are, say so, otherwise come off it. You're flat proving to me it was the right decision and pre-game is beyond my scope by voting me for it.
234 That is a really ****ty defense. Like wow. ._. lol.

It makes it look like he's actually contributing.

Oh, and this defense:



Is bull****
239 How does that post come off as contributing at all? Lol. Reaching, much?

There was neither any RVS (except Laundry) nor WIFOM utilized in the pregame. In fact, some fairly important mechanic discussion took place that could greatly influence your read on a few players. Why are you trying to put on this bravado and dismiss its legitimacy? You're usually much more open-minded than this. Scum.
247 I’m not sure how I feel about this. Trying to call Dietz scum for something like that when he obviously seems frustrated at the pre-game turning out the way it did.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I'm gonna put my vote here for now:

Vote: Dark Horse

I may move it later though. I never realized how hard it is to get reads on a good player until now with Swiss. I'm kinda afraid to put him as town due to his scum rep, but he's so townie at some points and the rest of the times he's null, never scum. He's a town lean.

Kuz and Fynal interaction puts him at town for me. Looks like he’s actually scum hunting and I like how he’s trying to gather more information before making claims and trying to pull things together.

I'll have to re-read the July post, but I'm pretty sure I pulled a general town read from that.

I'm pretty confused as to if Adumb is dumb or scum lol. Doing what he did as scum, when explained, can put extreme pressure onto you and can make a few people turn on you, Kuz, which I think is the possible scum motivation behind it if he were to be scum. Of course, this perfectly fits with being dumb as well.

 

#HBC | Dark Horse

Mach-Hommy x Murakami
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
3,739
54 Dark Horse, are you saying that the reads you already tried to form seem ****ty or are you saying that you just can’t read people? Lol
The latter

154 Lol. Calls Ditz scum for that, but doesn’t call me out for that when I’ve said something along those lines twice so far in the game.
Alright, cool. The thing is, you're actually contributing.

239 How does that post come off as contributing at all? Lol. Reaching, much?
It doesn't, hence why I said it was "fake contributing."
 

Dooms

KY/KP Joey
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
5,955
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
NNID
Doomsyplusle
3DS FC
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Joey. :v.

I'm pretty sure you're in the "dumb or scum" category at this point of the game lol. I'll wait for others to answer, though.

@DH: Oh @ first

I wasn't when you called ditz scum. All I said were things along the lines of "Has the game started yet". I'm however, starting to realize that Jdietz did something completely different from me. Shows what I get for rushing a post >_<'.

Where does he show an attempt at contributing, though? I don't really feel like he's trying to contribute to the game as much as he's just trying to put stuff out there for people to read. This means, in my opinion (due to his aggravation), that he's trying to get an understanding on the game and the players before actually having actual reads. This could be way he said "gut" instead of having them as confident reads.

 
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