Tech Chasing Fox

[Ministry]

i feel like this is my main problem when playing foxes. i know the first 40% is tough to get on the fox and a good way is to tech chase. i need a bit of help, what works what doesnt. i find walking+boost grab is good in almost every situation except the tech in place. its to hard to react to the fox since he can shine in 1 frame so it makes it difficult to grab.

any help is aprectiated

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I just wavedash to where he lands and follow from there.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

someone should elaborate on the use of upsmash when tech chasing spacies...

i am noticing more use of it lately...

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

its kind of self - explanatory. run up to where hes probably teching in place (predictable space animal techs ha) and charge an jumpcancel an upsmash and charge it for a split second.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I like running past them to hit them with the back part. To avoid like... get up attacks, maybe.

Mostly, it just looks cool.

Honestly though, you should just stick to normal tech chasing. Usmash doesn't really do much other than damage, and it makes it harder for you to put more damage on.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they don't DI your U-smash, you can get a huge damage payoff.

Grab, knockdown F-tilt, D-smash, and dash attack are all 100% better.

If you F-tilt someone through their tech animation they'll fall over if they try to CC Shine so then you jab reset and do something. Grab is better, but some people are slow so it's worth using.

Also, D-smash does 13% and if they DI into it, they can get hit extra times. Sometimes getting the 22% from one move is pretty safe and good.

 

[Teczer0]

someone should elaborate on the use of upsmash when tech chasing spacies...

i am noticing more use of it lately...

Upsmash tbh shouldn't be used that often. Grabbing is often way more effective. Upsmash is okay if you're positive you're going to land it. Otherwise its generally not worth the risk

its kind of self - explanatory. run up to where hes probably teching in place (predictable space animal techs ha) and charge an jumpcancel an upsmash and charge it for a split second.

I wish it was so easy >_____>.

There are a lot of different scenarios to consider and often times your window frame to punish with the correct tech chase is small. Running up may not work if your opponent tech rolls behind you. Your momentum might stop you from actually being able to reach fox. And etc.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Upsmash tbh shouldn't be used that often. Grabbing is often way more effective. Upsmash is okay if you're positive you're going to land it. Otherwise its generally not worth the risk

D-smash if you see them tech in place, or dash cancel D-smash are both very good. It's faster than grab so you have an easier window to hit it. Grab is the best follow, though, as it combos to more grab or dash attack or pretty much any move you can think of.

I wish it was so easy >_____>.

There are a lot of different scenarios to consider and often times your window frame to punish with the correct tech chase is small. Running up may not work if your opponent tech rolls behind you. Your momentum might stop you from actually being able to reach fox. And etc.

I find dashing bad for starting. All you need to do is walk forward EVER so slightly so your grab will get him and if he techs away then you dash and react. If he techs into you, do whatever your heart desires most.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can someone explain to me why a lot of Sheiks think 40% is the "magic number" to get on Fox. Fox can CC Sheik's dash attack until at least mid-60%, I'm pretty sure.

 

[pockyD]

it's so easy to land absolutely anything you want when they tech behind you

it makes me wonder why they ever do it when the other 3 options are far harder to punish if mixed up

 

[DtJ Jungle]

about 40 is when tilts start knocking fox over out of CC.

 

[ChivalRuse]

about 40 is when tilts start knocking fox over out of CC.

That makes sense.

 

[Teczer0]

D-smash if you see them tech in place, or dash cancel D-smash are both very good. It's faster than grab so you have an easier window to hit it. Grab is the best follow, though, as it combos to more grab or dash attack or pretty much any move you can think of.

Yea I agree, actually I typically use dash attacks if I feel like I'll miss. Unless its at low percent. Then I dsmash too. ^_^.

I find dashing bad for starting. All you need to do is walk forward EVER so slightly so your grab will get him and if he techs away then you dash and react. If he techs into you, do whatever your heart desires most.

I actually agree with this, I rarely try to dash before the actual tech/tech roll.

 

[Kira-]

WHOO i love talking about this. the bread and butter for any sheik vs spacies

first of all understand that i am only one sheik of many. so my style may not work for you. take everything with a grain of salt but also give everything a chance! what a contradiction -_-

1. basically the first 40% you tech chase with grab, because dash attack won't combo. dash attacking under 40% just lets them escape, but above 40% leads to another dash attack and a billion combo options that lead to death like all the time

2. you can't react to tech in place. really, i don't know what everyone else is thinking but you really can't so just dont try. tech chasing is an art, not based off reaction skill. what i do is randomly (yes, randomly) predict tech in place and just grab in place. if you hit, you hit, if you miss, there's very little lag so you can run towards whichever direction they teched in and try to keep applying pressure. you can also charge upsmash (again, somewhat randomly). Nobody likes getting hit by upsmash so it scares them into not teching in place. Which is great because if they roll it's REALLY easy to react to it (assuming you know they will roll) and you can dash attack which will combo to death pretty much all the time. Basically, your goal is to get them to roll, because if you KNOW they will roll, THEN you can start reacting to the direction and you will get a grab or dash attack out of it 100% of the time (if you know they will roll, that is). So do this by scaring them away with upsmash. Yes, this is a psychological attack, don't underestimate it, because it has reliably worked for me for about 6 months straight.

Example: At 0%, i have never played this fox before so i dont know his tech pattern YET, I'll downthrow, charge upsmash in place. If they roll, I miss, but they can't punish, upsmash is completely safe. I like to do ftilts after my upsmash cause everyone tries to punish but they run into it. It's great. If they tech in place, they get hit (maybe they escape) but either way they won't tech in place next time. So you know they will roll, aka you will get a free tech chase next time you grab them. The point of this is basically to cover at least one option while gaining some insight into their tech pattern, habits, and mindset.


After that, there are three types of styles you need to quickly recognize and follow the methodology accordingly. It's basically rock-paper-scissors game theory for the most part:
- Against a noob, they'll probably do the same tech as they did last time, so just assume their last action.
- Against a good/decent player, they'll NEVER do the same tech as they did last time, IF you punished it. If you missed the punish, they'll probably do the same thing again. This is ESPECIALLY true for techs AFTER the first tech. That's confusing, but basically, if you get the first tech out of your throw correctly, all the consecutive techs have a very good chance of following this pattern. The first tech out of your initial throw is slightly harder to predict because people are so conscious of getting tech chased, so they are generally thinking more on their toes for this first one. After that, their human nature and instinct takes over, which is exactly what you want.
- Against an excellent player, they'll be very unpredictable (as they should be). However, this section of players is very slim, more slim than you think. Even your top players will likely fall into the second (good/decent) category. BUT do not fear even if they do prove themselves to be in this category. Everybody has a pattern. If you know they're trying to be unpredictable, then you can account for this and be unpredictable yourself. Start with the basics (assume tech in place, since that's the only tech where they can counterattack; the rest are safe) and use your brain to start learning their pattern.


some pointers:
- don't hesitate. make sure you at least cover one option (usually tech in place). the worst that happens is that you miss but you're still safe. every time i hesistate they decide to tech in place and shine me and then i die so don't hesitate lol
- pretty much your whole goal vs any space animal is to dash attack them at 40%, because from there you literally can combo to death. And death combos always include down air. Mango's sheik taught me how brutal down air is, so now i abuse it all day. Luckily for me, his sheik is a rare sight so i have an exclusive advantage =) Haha, nah i'm sure other people abuse dair but i probably just havent seen it yet.
- if you have a full set of needles, at 0% downthrow to needle. if they dont tech it jab resets. pretty cool lol
- Keep in mind, people have different tech patterns when they have different emotions. There are confident tech patterns, there are scared tech patterns, there are last stock patterns, there are "let me just get out" patterns, there are stubborn patterns, and SOMETIMES the patterns carry over to other people and sometimes they don't. It's up to you and your experience to decide what kind of person they are or what kind of mood they are in. If you're new, don't expect to be able to do this any time soon, but if you're pro, you probably already have an idea of what im talking about. There are patterns and there are people, sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't, just try to figure out which category they go in. once you do this then you get 0-deaths every grab, it's ****.




Sorry for the text wall but last thing. I can't speak for the East Coast or Florida or Midwest, but people on the West Coast (including canada) tend to not tech behind you. They "know" it's a bad tech because you're closer to that side and can cover it more easily WHICH IS TRUE but that also allows you to not worry about that one.

Oh yeah and last, LAST thing. Against falcon you can react to the tech in place. don't ask me why, i dont even know myself, but i just know that i do it lol. my theory is that shine is faster than roll/run/jump so you have more leighway against falcons. also you're not scared of dying.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Can someone explain to me why a lot of Sheiks think 40% is the "magic number" to get on Fox. Fox can CC Sheik's dash attack until at least mid-60%, I'm pretty sure.

True CC > Dash Attack but True CC is not very common. It requires you to be in neutral position, crouching (and because you're holding down to crouch, you're also ASDIing down). Most attacks are done when people are not in neutral but in lag or dash dance or WD or whatever.

ASDI down on space animals without the crouch gets broken fairly early by Dash Attack. Which is why you need to hit that magic number. For dash attack it's actually lower than 40 but tilts are important to Sheik too.

Hence the magic number.

 

[Kira-]

bleh. now that i quit the game i feel the need to spill all my secrets lol

next time i'll keep it succinct, i promise

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nobody truly "quits" smash.

 

[pockyD]

yeah, you'll be back!

some people definitely quit smash, but they won't come back and visit smashboards to talk about it

 

[keeper]

*insight*

Any reason in particular to not charge a Dsmash instead on the first throw? My general experiences are people tech in place first, or at least the ones I play, so I often just regrab since I have that knowledge.

Anyway, my point is, why not Dsmash and potentially get a hit or two (especially if they CC it) instead of Usmash? Is Dsmash more punishable or something?

Thanks.

 

[pockyD]

i think usmash has a better reward (subjective I suppose) but it's also "safer", since I think if you dsmash and they tech behind, they can get a free hit (or hits) in

 

[keeper]

i think usmash has a better reward (subjective I suppose) but it's also "safer", since I think if you dsmash and they tech behind, they can get a free hit (or hits) in

So it's more so that dsmash is punishable.

I think the reward depends on how they react. My friend was arguing to me that Dsmash yields more percent.

 

[pockyD]

dsmash probably directly yields more percent (especially if you get multiple hits), but usmash leads to other hits if they don't CC (i'm not 100% sure of this depending on the percent) or at least another tech chase type situation if they do CC (or are at super low percents maybe?)

 

[keeper]

dsmash probably directly yields more percent (especially if you get multiple hits), but usmash leads to other hits if they don't CC (i'm not 100% sure of this depending on the percent) or at least another tech chase type situation if they do CC (or are at super low percents maybe?)

Fair enough. That and the whole conditioning aspect of not wanting to be hit by another Usmash factor in nicely as well.

This thread is helping me learn how to better beat Fox. I happied.

 

[Teczer0]

dsmash probably directly yields more percent (especially if you get multiple hits), but usmash leads to other hits if they don't CC (i'm not 100% sure of this depending on the percent) or at least another tech chase type situation if they do CC (or are at super low percents maybe?)

Upsmash in general gives a lot of rewards.

Even upsmashes DIed well doesn't put you in a great position. If you DI it down and away (Ideally) they're still stuck getting tech chased. If its not DIed the best way you could fit in a dash attack, grab, another upsmash(depending on percentage, I'd say around 30+), ftilt, dsmash, or tech chase onto a platform. And if your opponent CCs it they usually fall over so you can tech chase again.

Its just harder to hit because of the startup lag and therefore you have to predict the tech/tech roll. Because of that Dsmash is just a better reaction move and easier to abuse. I think if you actually land the dsmash(Unless they're at like 0) they can't actually punish you for it.

 

[Kira-]

Any reason in particular to not charge a Dsmash instead on the first throw? My general experiences are people tech in place first, or at least the ones I play, so I often just regrab since I have that knowledge.

Anyway, my point is, why not Dsmash and potentially get a hit or two (especially if they CC it) instead of Usmash? Is Dsmash more punishable or something?

Thanks.

dsmash doesnt lead to anything. after you dsmash someone the combo is over most of the time. plus if you're charging a dsmash (meaning you knew they were going to tech there) you could just regrab and continue the damage. sometimes i'll dsmash near the ledge though, cause you want fox to not be on the stage and stuff but that's the only time

also, a lot of times, if i dsmash at low percents they just get pushed back but are still standing up. then i take lots of damage.

Upsmash in general gives a lot of rewards.

Even upsmashes DIed well doesn't put you in a great position. If you DI it down and away (Ideally) you're still stuck getting tech chased. If its not DIed the best way you could fit in a dash attack, grab, another upsmash(depending on percentage, I'd say around 30+), ftilt, dsmash, or tech chase onto a platform. And if your opponent CCs it they usually fall over so you can tech chase again.

Its just harder to hit because of the startup lag. Because of that Dsmash is just a better reaction move. I think if you actually land the dsmash(Unless they're at like 0) they can't actually punish you for it.

pretty much this, even if you cant combo after upsmash you get another tech chase out of it, which isn't the case for dsmash. even at higher percents a well-DI'd upsmash can still combo into a slap, so it's worth it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they don't DI U-smash you can just make up **** and it will probably work.

 

[keeper]

dsmash doesnt lead to anything. after you dsmash someone the combo is over most of the time. plus if you're charging a dsmash (meaning you knew they were going to tech there) you could just regrab and continue the damage. sometimes i'll dsmash near the ledge though, cause you want fox to not be on the stage and stuff but that's the only time

also, a lot of times, if i dsmash at low percents they just get pushed back but are still standing up. then i take lots of damage.



pretty much this, even if you cant combo after upsmash you get another tech chase out of it, which isn't the case for dsmash. even at higher percents a well-DI'd upsmash can still combo into a slap, so it's worth it.

The charge part was to make it the same as how you described you conditioning someone with the charged usmash. The rest makes sense. Awesome.

If they don't DI U-smash you can just make up **** and it will probably work.

I like this. It's basically what I do as of right now anyway, haha. It's working pretty well for me too. I got 5th at my last tournament. >_>;

 

[KirbyKaze]

I got 2nd

I would post the vids but posting vids is so last week

 

[keeper]

I got 2nd

I would post the vids but posting vids is so last week

Last week happens to be in.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, the present is so two weeks ago.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wait i thought the present was a week from now


or am i out of the loop?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The loop's over there ----------->

Can't see it? Man, you must be really far out of it =P

 

[mr.fizwidget]

this thread helped a ton...

especially kira's post

thanks bros

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

meh, w/e.

the loop was so yesterday.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh man, infinite loop.

 

[Kira-]

i like the talk about the present and the infinite loops and stuff but i forgot two litlte things

- 1. remember that they are scared of you. it sucks to get grabbed. so make sure you are a presence, and not scared of messing up yourself. this sounds lame but it really helped me

- 2. people change their teching habits over time. eventually a smart player will come around and figure out YOUR teching pattern. naturally, the solution is to change up back.

the second thing might apply to me a bit more, because there aren't a lot of sheik mains on the entire west coast, so a lot of players simply switch up what they do against ME rather than sheik in general. but either way you need to account for it eventually so yeah

 

[keeper]

It seems most people do their first tech in place.

 

[Adam M!]

some good advice but my thoughts:

-- you can react to tech (or no tech) in place consistently. it HAS to always be your first read tho, cuz then you're prepared to react for it. and you always have enough time to react to any other tech roll

-- i didn't know that stuff about "true CC" kirbykaze (well i kinda knew that when I CCed RIGHT as i got hit instead of holding it beforehand it was more effective but not really), now i'll be able to better CC sheik's dash attack

-- usmash sucks because they can CC it and then get up attack or otherwise respond and end your "combo"

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can DEFINITELY react to the tech in place >__>

You have such a HUGE window of error on hitting the other two, you only really need to be good at hitting the in place options every time. You can half-bake the tech rolls and still get them. Sheik's stupid.

some good advice but my thoughts:

-- you can react to tech (or no tech) in place consistently. it HAS to always be your first read tho, cuz then you're prepared to react for it. and you always have enough time to react to any other tech roll

Yes.

-- usmash sucks because they can CC it and then get up attack or otherwise respond and end your "combo"

To counter them being knocked over by u-smash and get-up attack, you can press "R" and hold "R" and then do monkey business.

Monkey business *****.

I guess if they CC tech then you're in trouble but nobody does that.

 

[Plairnkk]

i usmash a lot but im gonna start replacing it with utilt

some situations (near the ledge) usmash covers almost ALL options though, which is ****

im gonna be totally behind drephen, kira, and amsah at this cuz we are sheik mains who dont play other chars