TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

[Hadokeyblade]

If I'm remembering my trivia right he said he considers the story of Phoenix wright over with AA3, AA4 was designed to lay the groundwork for the writer who would take over after him so he made Apollo, Klavier and Trucy the new protagonists for that game so the new writer wouldn't be bound by Phoenix and friends.

I guess he didn't like how Yamazaki ultimately decided to throw Trucy and klavier off to the side.

That might explain why the cast of Dai Gyakuten Saiban feels like he repurposed the cast of Apollo justice. Sherlock feels like he's supposed to be Klavier's ancestor.

 

[DanganZilla5]

Meanwhile I'm over here thinking AA5 and AA6 are some of the strongest games in the series...

In my opinion they are very close to the trilogy when it comes to quality. I would say there isn't a single weak case in either of them. Personally I wasn't a big fan of 5-2 but the big plot twist at the end saved the case for me. I can see some people saying that 6-4 is weak and pointless but I thought it was hilarious, it brought back a certain person from Dual Destinies which is great, and it was a more laid back case after the very dark and tragic 6-3.

 

[GoodGrief741]

He still works at capcom but he's gone on record saying he doesn't want to work on the main series anymore and that he doesn't exactly approve of how Yamazaki handled the AA4 storyline.

You got a source for that? Not that I don't believe it, but it's the first time I'm hearing this and it's really too bad.

If I'm remembering my trivia right he said he considers the story of Phoenix wright over with AA3, AA4 was designed to lay the groundwork for the writer who would take over after him so he made Apollo, Klavier and Trucy the new protagonists for that game so the new writer wouldn't be bound by Phoenix and friends.

I guess he didn't like how Yamazaki ultimately decided to throw Trucy and klavier off to the side.

That might explain why the cast of Dai Gyakuten Saiban feels like he repurposed the cast of Apollo justice. Sherlock feels like he's supposed to be Klavier's ancestor.

To this day I still can't understand how AJ had a great new cast with characters and dynamics that were pretty different from the OT, and then they messed it all up for the sake of fanservice and escalating stakes. It's actually kind of beautiful in its own way.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

You got a source for that? Not that I don't believe it, but it's the first time I'm hearing this and it's really too bad.

To this day I still can't understand how AJ had a great new cast with characters and dynamics that were pretty different from the OT, and then they messed it all up for the sake of fanservice and escalating stakes. It's actually kind of beautiful in its own way.

According to the articles I found the sentiment has gotten a little muddy over the years since he said it. But apparently when it comes to AA5 he says something like this "I have uncertainty about Ace attorney's future, Apollo should have been the main character of AA5 but they insisted on making it another Phoenix game. While I'm not sure about the direction the series will go in going forward as long as fans enjoy it I can't really complain." Or something along those lines.

I think it's pretty telling that he only comes back to the series for special occasions, AA4 was supposed to be a new storyline because he felt the character arcs from the trilogy were over and done with and only added Phoenix back in because Capcom wanted him to do that.

He came back for the Layton crossover because Laytons creator asked him personally and he did DGS because he wanted to give the new cast of characters idea another shot.

 

[zumaddy]

Hopefully this hasn't put AA7 in purgatory.

I'm seeing some people saying "Ace Attorney is dead" and I seriously doubt it considering Capcom still gives it a fair bit of attention as a series and the old trilogies sold pretty well. I just wonder if they're gonna go for a 'HD new trilogy' with the 3DS version of AJ + the two 3ds titles to keep the series going rather than focusing on a new game.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I find it hilarious that both writers left the series on

Spoiler: Ace attorney

The exact same cliffhanger, it's almost like Yamazaki didn't want to deal with Takumi's leftovers and just left it to whoever takes over for him

 

[zumaddy]

Apollo: Please someone write me some proper closure
Director: *leaves*

Poor AJ always gets left in purgatory.

 

[fogbadge]

Apollo: Please someone write me some proper closure
Director: *leaves*

Poor AJ always gets left in purgatory.

its the fans own fault, they complained when nick was no longer the protag and then when they brought him back they complained that apollo was not done justice

 

[Hadokeyblade]

its the fans own fault, they complained when nick was no longer the protag and then when they brought him back they complained that apollo was not done justice

Yeah, i really hate how Apollo's "trilogy" turned out, it feels like the series is stuck in 2004 and doesn't want to move forward.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Such is the cultural habit of fanbases in Japan. Anything that deviates too wildly from the formula is rejected for comfort zone reasons, and the tried-and-true is doubled-down on afterwards.

At any rate, the devs have done nothing since Spirit of Justice, and there are no other upcoming DGS entries at the moment. It'll have been quiet for 3 years.

What are they planning? Is something about to finally change?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

It's such a damn shame because as a fan of series like Persona and Power rangers the idea of making a series that just has a rotating cast of characters while still existing in the same universe really appeals to me yet they really dropped the ball with Apollo's trilogy.

 

[zumaddy]

I wish Dual Destinies had connected 4 and 6 in any sort of meaningful way apart from introducing Athena. I sometimes forget it exists when thinking about the AJ timeline...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I wish Dual Destinies had connected 4 and 6 in any sort of meaningful way apart from introducing Athena. I sometimes forget it exists when thinking about the AJ timeline...

I honestly believe Athena to be a character who shouldn't really exist. At least not as a main character, she was designed specifically for the one storyline of dual destinies, stole the spotlight away from the AA4 gang and once her one storyarc from DD was complete she was tossed aside and is just extra baggage that the writers couldn't get rid of

 

[GoodGrief741]

I honestly believe Athena to be a character who shouldn't really exist. At least not as a main character, she was designed specifically for the one storyline of dual destinies, stole the spotlight away from the AA4 gang and once her one storyarc from DD was complete she was tossed aside and is just extra baggage that the writers couldn't get rid of

Yeah, I mean, I love Athena, she's one of my favorite characters in the series, but if they wanted to keep Apollo and his cast, plus bring back Phoenix and his cast, it was really dumb to bring in a new character with a whole new cast as well. Especially when they just gave her one case and a half as playable character and sidelined her into an assistant role the rest of the time (despite being super central to the story and Trucy being right there to fill the assistant role).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If it were up to me I would make AA7 a game similar to AA4 in that it's set after a timeskip, one where Athena opened up her own agency somewhere else and Trucy now lives in another location with her magic career in full swing.

Meanwhile good old Nick is running the agency like usual, the agency now having become famous for taking screw ups and turning them into legends, clearing the table for our new protag-kun, protag-kun works under Phoenix and is the playable hero throughout most of this story, Phoenix only taking the playable role in a flashback case where he and Athena defend protag-kun, this being the case where these two individuals first met, a case set a year or 2 after AA6 and a case that while seemingly unimportant at the time becomes a catalyst for a future that Protag-kun takes on to prove that he can be as much of an ace Attorney as his predecessors were.

And with how long it's been since we've seen him, Gumshoe could maybe show up with a son or daughter who through some random encounters eventually develops a brotherly bond with Protag-kun.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe it's because...

Aside from Apollo and Trucy...

The AA4 gang just wasn't that interesting.

 

[fogbadge]

Maybe it's because...

Aside from Apollo and Trucy...

The AA4 gang just wasn't that interesting.

while i agree with you on klavier i have to say i liked emma way more then gumshoe

 

[Swamp Sensei]

while i agree with you on klavier i have to say i liked emma way more then gumshoe

1. How dare you. Gumshoe is life.

2. Emma is a weird gray so I didn't include her. She's technically a Phoenix Wright Triology character.

 

[zumaddy]

What frustrates me the most is how little post AJ explores Klavier having to deal with

Spoiler: AJ

both his brother and former close friend in prison, as well as an old mentor murdered in DD. He seems completely carefree about all of these events happening pretty close to each other by DD. There should have been a moment sometime in the new trilogy where his flashy facade crumbles in front of Apollo and Trucy for just a moment to show his true mental state, but it never happens and he becomes an afterthought. By SOJ he is a nothing.

 

[fogbadge]

i dont even remember anything about klavier in aa4

How dare you. Gumshoe is life.

i never said i never liked him, but it was getting just sad to watch them constantly kick him while he was down

 

[MasterWarlord]

Personally, if Takeshi Yamazaki is gone, I have extremely little faith in the future of Ace Attorney. The only good games Shu Takumi (the writer we have left) produced is the originals, and he had help from others to write those cases as far as I know. Every game since then he's been in charge of I have found to be sorely lacking (Apollo Justice, Layton vs Ace Attorney, and the two Japan exclusive Cosney Megundal attorney games.) All of Takeshi's games, on the other hand, I've found to be hits, even if some of them are obviously better than others. Investigations 2 is the best in the series.

The future of the series looks bleak with Takeshi gone and Nintendo phasing out portable consoles with the death of the 3DS. Another jump in quality will be expected when the series goes to console, and the series is not financially profitable enough to justify that. No portable consoles is very bad for Ace Attorney. The first 3 games, for better or worse, are also far more well known than anything that came after, which makes things awkward. It is extremely difficult to propose a financially viable strategy for a new AA game at this point.

i dont even remember anything about klavier in aa4

He was too busy insisting that a blind child killed a 6 foot tall bodybuilder security guard with a gun he was physically incapable of wielding.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What frustrates me the most is how little post AJ explores Klavier having to deal with

Spoiler: AJ

both his brother and former close friend in prison, as well as an old mentor murdered in DD. He seems completely carefree about all of these events happening pretty close to each other by DD. There should have been a moment sometime in the new trilogy where his flashy facade crumbles in front of Apollo and Trucy for just a moment to show his true mental state, but it never happens and he becomes an afterthought. By SOJ he is a nothing.

I'm gonna defend Klavier here.

Spoiler

Klavier doesn't really need to be in a broken state. He was sad and hurt on both occurrences but its his nature not to dwell on the negative. He's genuinely a nice guy who has his **** together. Klavier can still be a deep character while keeping his plucky rockstar attitude.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

What frustrates me the most is how little post AJ explores Klavier having to deal with

Spoiler: AJ

both his brother and former close friend in prison, as well as an old mentor murdered in DD. He seems completely carefree about all of these events happening pretty close to each other by DD. There should have been a moment sometime in the new trilogy where his flashy facade crumbles in front of Apollo and Trucy for just a moment to show his true mental state, but it never happens and he becomes an afterthought. By SOJ he is a nothing.

I honestly hate how he's just a nobody in Yamazaki's games, he was a cool character in AA4, the third case of DD was a good opportunity to have him be the prosecutor of the case, it makes more sense than having blackquill there again.

Personally, if Takeshi Yamazaki is gone, I have extremely little faith in the future of Ace Attorney. The only good games Shu Takumi (the writer we have left) produced is the originals, and he had help from others to write those cases as far as I know. Every game since then he's been in charge of I have found to be sorely lacking (Apollo Justice, Layton vs Ace Attorney, and the two Japan exclusive Cosney Megundal attorney games.) All of Takeshi's games, on the other hand, I've found to be hits, even if some of them are obviously better than others. Investigations 2 is the best in the series.

The future of the series looks bleak with Takeshi gone and Nintendo phasing out portable consoles with the death of the 3DS. Another jump in quality will be expected when the series goes to console, and the series is not financially profitable enough to justify that. No portable consoles is very bad for Ace Attorney. The first 3 games, for better or worse, are also far more well known than anything that came after, which makes things awkward. It is extremely difficult to propose a financially viable strategy for a new AA game at this point.



He was too busy insisting that a blind child killed a 6 foot tall bodybuilder security guard with a gun he was physically incapable of wielding.

Personally... I just don't get this mindset, the characters and plots feel way better written in Takumi's games, while in Yamazaki's the characters feel inconsistent and the plots feels way more cartoony.

 

[Lionfranky]

Such is the cultural habit of fanbases in Japan. Anything that deviates too wildly from the formula is rejected for comfort zone reasons, and the tried-and-true is doubled-down on afterwards.

At any rate, the devs have done nothing since Spirit of Justice, and there are no other upcoming DGS entries at the moment. It'll have been quiet for 3 years.

What are they planning? Is something about to finally change?

That isn't exclusive to Japanese gamers though... This is tame compared to Halo fanbase.

 

[zumaddy]

I'm gonna defend Klavier here.

Spoiler

Klavier doesn't really need to be in a broken state. He was sad and hurt on both occurrences but its his nature not to dwell on the negative. He's genuinely a nice guy who has his **** together. Klavier can still be a deep character while keeping his plucky rockstar attitude.

While I agree he doesn't need to have some sort of mental breakdown and that he's generally an optimist,

Spoiler: AJ

three awful things relating to his loved ones happening in pretty close succession seems to have little effect on him. The fact that he and Apollo have never mentioned Kristoph, whether in a nostalgic or regretful way ever since is just bizarre, although that's mainly due to Klav being a non-entity in new games. He's a cool character who they just dropped for whatever reason.

That being said, playing DGS right now has made me really appreciate a prosecutor who you want to hit in the face. Barok smugly going on about how no one cares about a closing argument only to turn it around completely in case 3 was soooo satisfying. I think they should keep friendly prosecutors like Klavier to a minimum and just build a little on him more.

That's assuming we ever get a proper AA7 anytime soon

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

That isn't exclusive to Japanese gamers though... This is tame compared to Halo fanbase.

I did mean in general outside of the gaming scene, you should see how younger viewers reacted to older Super Sentai entries like JAKQ, back in the day.

 

[fogbadge]

He was too busy insisting that a blind child killed a 6 foot tall bodybuilder security guard with a gun he was physically incapable of wielding.

he was there?

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I think what bothers me the most from the Yamazaki trilogy is how Phoenix feels as much of a rookie as he was in the original trilogy despite that the end of T&T felt like it marked the end of that phase from his career and he became a true ace attorney

Spoiler

with Godot seeing Mia during his last rebutal.

I love the dude, but I feel he'd have been better off as a mentor role and just that and not really becoming playable again. I used to really like DD on release but as time went by it went from my 2nd favorite to great to good to eh and nowadays I struggle to say many good things about it outside of having nice production values for a 3DS VN, and that soundtrack is just fantastic, but music alone can't salvage what I consider sloppy writing in a game you play first and foremost for the story at the end of the day.
I like Athena but I feel SoJ really showed they have no idea what to do with her now being relegated to have the most fillery of filler cases in the franchise and then just taking the backseat as an investigation buddy (I don't even remember if she uses the mood matrix outside of her own case in that game). It probably won't happen but a brand new start feels like what'd be best for the series after how SoJ ended up.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think what bothers me the most from the Yamazaki trilogy is how Phoenix feels as much of a rookie as he was in the original trilogy despite that the end of T&T felt like it marked the end of that phase from his career and he became a true ace attorney

I'm actually gonna defend this bit too.

Phoenix is more competent than ever, but when we're playing as him, we're privy to his internal monologues and inner doubts. Just look at how he acts when you're playing as Apollo or Athena. He's in charge, confident and in complete control. He still has some of his flaws, but he's shown immense growth.

 

[SNEKeater]

DD and SoJ have some problems, but I honestly think both games are pretty good. I'd rather replay these two instead of AA2 or AA4, if you ask me.

It's true that Dual Destinies loses some of the things that AA4 brought, but I actually enjoyed the idea of having 3 different characters. I'm on the mindset that Phoenix and Apollo can coexist as well. I still don't know if I liked the second twist of the final "boss" of DD, by the way.

As for SoJ, the new gimmick is very cool in my opinion, although I believe that at certain points it could have been better executed. As for SoJ's story, I don't know, I think it's really nice. The game is basically Apollo Justice 2, which I think proves the fact that Phoenix and Apollo can coexist and be playable at the same time. While AA5 seemed to be a step down in comparison to AA4 if we talk about introducing a new cast and all, it still features Apollo in an important role during the game, where we learn more about him.
Honestly, after AA6, I don't know if they could come up with more backstories for Apollo lol

Unpopular opinion I guess but at this point getting rid of Phoenix doesn't seems right, you can having him in the game while introducing new and fresh things at the same time. And even if it's the right move, it's not gonna happen, specially if we assume that Apollo won't return in the next game, as implied AA6's ending. Or at least that was I felt.
I think it would be nice if AA7 stars Athena, which certainly was a bit robbed in the previous game. You can have Phoenix there and assisting her, maybe playing with him in 1 case. While introducing new main characters would bring new mechanics and stories, you can have both things as well with the characters we already know, specially with Athena.

 

[KirbyMonadoBoy]

Meanwhile I'm over here thinking AA5 and AA6 are some of the strongest games in the series...

AA5 and AA6 are my favourites in the whole series and the ones I enjoy replaying the most. Therefore I'm really sad that Yamazaki won't be part of future AA games...

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I probably would say I prefer Takumi's handling of the series. (if he's the one who handled the original trilogy and the Dai Gyakuten Saiban games)

Although I also really loved Investigations 2, which I think was Yamazaki?

To be honest I think I'm in Camp "I like Both".

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I probably would say I prefer Takumi's handling of the series. (if he's the one who handled the original trilogy and the Dai Gyakuten Saiban games)

Although I also really loved Investigations 2, which I think was Yamazaki?

To be honest I think I'm in Camp "I like Both".

Takumi handled:

The trilogy
DGS
The Layton crossover
Apollo justice

Yamazaki handled:

The investigations games
5
6

So basically Takumi handled all the great games while Yamazaki handled the mediocre ones.

 

[Flyboy]

Takumi handled:

The trilogy
DGS
The Layton crossover
Apollo justice

Yamazaki handled:

The investigations games
5
6

So basically Takumi handled all the great games while Yamazaki handled the mediocre ones.

Okay, bud, subjective as hell considering DD and AAI2 are my favorite ones in the series.

I just hope whoever takes over does the series justice and gives us Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney because I'm still mad about SoJ and will be forever

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I have problems with Yamazaki but I wouldn't put Takumi in such a high pedestal either, the Layton crossover is easily my second least favorite entry in the franchise (and I guess least favorite Layton too) as I was super underwhelmed when it finally came out after such a long localization, my feelings towards AJ are lukewarm at best and even the original trilogy has its flukes (even after saying my dislike for some of the latter entries I'd still put 2-1, 2-3 and 3-3 among my bottom 10 cases in the franchise), and Investigations 2 was finally the game that surpassed my love for the original and still stood that title after I revisited and still loved just about everything about it to give Yamazaki some credit as well.
I think the quality was generally more consistent with Takumi but I'd also rather not see the guy work on AA again, Ghost Trick was really cool so if he can come up with more stories like that it'd be great.

 

[fogbadge]

To be honest I think I'm in Camp "I like Both".

im with you

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I have problems with Yamazaki but I wouldn't put Takumi in such a high pedestal either, the Layton crossover is easily my second least favorite entry in the franchise (and I guess least favorite Layton too) as I was super underwhelmed when it finally came out after such a long localization, my feelings towards AJ are lukewarm at best and even the original trilogy has its flukes (even after saying my dislike for some of the latter entries I'd still put 2-1, 2-3 and 3-3 among my bottom 10 cases in the franchise), and Investigations 2 was finally the game that surpassed my love for the original and still stood that title after I revisited and still loved just about everything about it to give Yamazaki some credit as well.
I think the quality was generally more consistent with Takumi but I'd also rather not see the guy work on AA again, Ghost Trick was really cool so if he can come up with more stories like that it'd be great.

I'm not saying Takumi is perfect, but I think he did a better job with Ace Attorney than Yamazaki did.

The clear difference between the two is that in Takumi's games there's an emphasis on character drama and personal relationships, while in the Yamazaki games the stories deal more towards big and bombastic cases that cover international politics.

I like the personal stakes seen in Takumi's cases better, it makes it feel more special I guess.

 

[Krankees]

I hope that if AA7 is in development, Capcom is taking their time making sure it comes out well.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I hope that if AA7 is in development, Capcom is taking their time making sure it comes out well.

Well they're certainly taking their time alright.

 

[Dukemon102]

I just read the news about Yamakazi leaving. Well that's sad, I imagine he had some creative differences about AA7 or he got burned out and left.
I think both Yamazaki and Takumi had their lows (AJ and AAI1) and highs (T&T and AAI2).
But Yamakazi always proved to be way more consistent than Takumi IMO. Takumi is like a rollercoaster, you can always have some crazy amazing stuff and then nosedive to non-sense in the same game. While Yamazaki feels like he ensures everything in the game connects somehow.... even if that ends in some spotty writing, but the cases themselves are always consistenly engaging (Or consistently boring). Even his worst cases didn't manage to bore to death like 2-3 and 4-3 did. But the one time he landed all of them (AAI2), that game was completely amazing, and it's enough for me to respect him for what he did for the series.

What is the future of Ace Attorney now? Hiatus? Takumi is going back to the main series? I don't think Capcom is gonna let him do a standalone story without Phoenix after DGS flopped so bad (WHYYYY). I wanted a game focusing on Athena but her original writer is gone and so far, every character that changes writter doesn't end well or feels consistent.... (Except Edgeworth, somehow his character is immune to being bad no matter what game he is in).