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I was just thinking this, I think he's going to get bodied. I've seen a couple of his Melee matches and while he does ok, it's not like it's impressive stuff. And if they're saying he has a good Samus all I can say is pfffffft. No words. I have a friend who's a way better Samus than him.A lot of people I know just don't want Esam to get in over players that would put up a good show.
Let's be honest here, unless Esam jumps into a Hyperbolic Melee Chamber, it's going to be a bloodfest when you consider the skill level of the other guys there.
You beat me to it.Omni? Respected?
Good point.If ESAM wants to try to steal a spot from someone more deserving than him, then so be it. Let him get beaten so badly that he realizes what a joke that was. The Melee community has a right to be irritated at it, but also a right to laugh him to death afterward.
Now this is truth if I ever saw it. Certain groups in todays world simply can't eI guess any criticism is considered hate now.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing what Mango or PPMD or some other top Melee player could do. A bit of crossover is healthy for both scenes in terms of pulling new people in. One slot for a high profile Melee player who might not technically have as much a track record in Smash 4 as other players doesn't really bother me since I think the potential benefits and intrigue factor make it worthwhile.To put it another way, what if sm4sh had something similar to summit and a Melee player who's been recorded as having said that he doesn't like Sm4sh all that much tried to use their Melee fame to essentially snatch a spot from a more deserving Sm4sh player. Wouldn't that piss you off BIG TIME? I've never cared that much for ESAM. I think him refusing to see other points of view(Miigalty anybody?) is NOT the kind of attitude the smash bros community in general needs. ESAM pretty much pulling the victim card the other day was the final straw for I think a lot of people.
Sure but I wouldn't say that calling 64 "The demo version of Melee" or Sm4sh "Tr4sh" is a simple disagreement or criticism.Now this is truth if I ever saw it. Certain groups in todays world simply can't e
fathom the idea that people disagree with them, and they start throwing around buzzwords like hate, racist, hitler etc etc.
In all fairness, I've never seen a single bad thing said about 64 anywhere besides one or two predictable Twitch chat comments.Sure but I wouldn't say that calling 64 "The demo version of Melee" or Sm4sh "Tr4sh" is a simple disagreement or criticism.
Many Melee players talk crap about the other 3 games in the series. And I've never heard a 64, Brawl, or Wii U player say anything bad about Melee. Not saying it's never happened but anyone saying Smash 4 players are just as toxic hasn't referenced any senarios.
I appreciate everything Melee has done for competitive Smash and as I've said before I love watching Melee. But alot of Melee fanboys even seem to forget that without 64 there would be no Melee.
Leffen and Armada ripped on it hard calling worse than Brawl on stream in the past.In all fairness, I've never seen a single bad thing said about 64 anywhere besides one or two predictable Twitch chat comments.
I've never actually seen anyone who plays a Smash game talk bad about any of the Smash games in person, with the exception of a few Sm4sh players bashing their own game, usually preceded and/or followed by comments about Bayonetta.
I've seen quite a lot of it back in the Brawl days, but that's because I had a youtube series about it. I got a lot of pretty vitrolic hate mail from the melee community pretty consistently back in the day though, and this was pre-twitch. That said, I still accept it's a vocal minority, but I definitely agree with the people saying that it's not simply a matter of difference of opinion or just letting everyone do their thing.In all fairness, I've never seen a single bad thing said about 64 anywhere besides one or two predictable Twitch chat comments.
I've never actually seen anyone who plays a Smash game talk bad about any of the Smash games in person, with the exception of a few Sm4sh players bashing their own game, usually preceded and/or followed by comments about Bayonetta.
Do you realize that what you said in the latter contradicts what you said in the former?If ESAM wants to try to steal a spot from someone more deserving than him, then so be it. Let him get beaten so badly that he realizes what a joke that was. The Melee community has a right to be irritated at it, but also a right to laugh him to death afterward.
Enough calling the Melee community "ruthless." They're not. It's not the Melee community persay, but select people in it.
No.The Sm4sh community, in my humble observations, has been guilty of more of this nonsense than the Melee people. I have seen MANY Sm4sh people bash Melee quite harshly, in an attempt to put down the old game to gain their game popularity. But in reality, it comes down to each individual person. What do YOU contribute? If you're engaging in this conversation too excitedly, you're probably contributing to the bad blood. Enough accusations, enough "call outs." Lead by example, not by small talk on an internet forum, or a stream chat.
Doesn't deserve. Who are you to judge that? It's someone who wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve? Seriously where is this entitlement coming from? You can disagree all you want and that's perfectly OK, but this entitlement to bash someone over this? Really guys? It's very childish behavior, like really at the end, it's still gonna be a great tournament and if one person gets over another there will be more tournaments in the future, it's literally not the end of the world or end of smash tournaments and chances.That being said, this really has absolutely nothing to do with what's happened. The fact is, ESAM is NOT the best Melee player. And while it might be "cool" to vote in an underdog, there are many, MANY more players that don't have a huge Sm4sh fanbase, that are far more deserving of this spot than he is. He is trying to earn something he doesn't deserve by using silly, childish methods. And it's really no wonder the Melee community has expressed annoyance at it. He's just not good enough to enter such a high caliber tournament. Period.
An idiot for wanting to participate in a tournament for a game loves? and you call him an idiot for that? ESAM has shown he isn't an idiot time and time again with his well thought out videos, so once again sounds like a bunch of whiners who literally are salty because someone from Smash 4 got in over a Melee only player. That's literally all that is going on here and the insults being thrown here with "idiot" and him entering a freakin' tournament is considered a "joke".Sadly, most communities are comprised of mostly immature people, so many of them have not expressed this very effectively. But that is not an excuse to call the Melee community vile. It is, rather, an excuse for the Melee leaders to show the proper way to handle things, and the Sm4sh people to realize ESAM is kind of an idiot. If you truly cared about "respecting each other's games", as so many of you have stated, then you'd realize that ESAM trying to enter this tournament is a joke and it's not really funny to the Melee players.
You call him a child for wanting to enter a big tournament regardless of his skill level? How else do people get better at Smash? and regardless if you can go to lower tournaments, how does that make him a child? Why are you perceiving him in such a "childish" way?If he does make it, and he does do well, then you know what? Kudos. Brava. He deserves a spotlight for a time, because he caused huge ripples and contributed something. But the chances of that happening are practically zero, so until he proves that he's up to the task by actually doing something at other, less important tournaments, this is pathetic. A child's attempt at grabbing attention where it does not belong.
The most impressive thing about ESAM's play in Melee is that he's one of the only Samus players to use missles extremely effectively.I was just thinking this, I think he's going to get bodied. I've seen a couple of his Melee matches and while he does ok, it's not like it's impressive stuff. And if they're saying he has a good Samus all I can say is pfffffft. No words. I have a friend who's a way better Samus than him.
At the time, Brawl was all we really had. So when Smash 4 comes out and it's just Better Brawl, naturally we're going to jump ship. Yes, partly because it is a new game, and partly because it improved on the gameplay we already liked. In comparison, Brawl became a much worse game. At least, to us. However, there are some people who do actually prefer Brawl, and who have stuck with that game. Kudos to them. They had the game they loved all along. The Brawl players who switched to Smash 4 were playing Brawl because it was the best at the time to them. Now it isn't. I don't get how that's an issue.The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!
Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy
The gameplay issues that plagued Brawl were very apparent back then, and the Brawl community not only knew about them but DEFENDED them. The fact of the matter is that the only reason Brawl players wanted to play Brawl was because of the bigger roster and because it was new, game play be damneed. It's the same with Smash 4. Smash 4 on release was truly horrific with its complete lack of shield stun, but hey ya know doesn't matter I'm just criticising because elitism.At the time, Brawl was all we really had. So when Smash 4 comes out and it's just Better Brawl, naturally we're going to jump ship. Yes, partly because it is a new game, and partly because it improved on the gameplay we already liked. In comparison, Brawl became a much worse game. At least, to us. However, there are some people who do actually prefer Brawl, and who have stuck with that game. Kudos to them. They had the game they loved all along. The Brawl players who switched to Smash 4 were playing Brawl because it was the best at the time to them. Now it isn't. I don't get how that's an issue.
P:M?I Agree with Omni but poeple should never neglect the infinite pain of the melee community to never got their melee-HD expected game.
This is why I say the Smash 4 community is the worst community out there. I'm glad someone besides me is talking about this.The gameplay issues that plagued Brawl were very apparent back then, and the Brawl community not only knew about them but DEFENDED them. The fact of the matter is that the only reason Brawl players wanted to play Brawl was because of the bigger roster and because it was new, game play be damneed. It's the same with Smash 4. Smash 4 on release was truly horrific with its complete lack of shield stun, but hey ya know doesn't matter I'm just criticising because elitism.
The biggest issue is that I'm sure some Smash 5, Smash 4 fans will **** on their beloved game. Hell, the Smash 4 has changed so much since release that liking the game just as much as release would mean you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics, or are being completely dishonest about your opinion on game design.
That's basically the big issue
Aye, you raise some valid points. Granted, I wrote this after 14 hours of school so I must admit I wasn't as diplomatic as I typically am. I apologize. All this about "entitlement" is a thing, you are correct. But you misunderstand. ESAM is NOT good enough. I don't really care if you think he is, but he isn't. It's not an opinion, it is, based on his past performance, a cold, hard fact. He's good, but he isn't THAT good. Not yet. He has very, very rarely, placed barely top 32. If he "wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve", as you say, then he can do that elsewhere. This isn't a typical tournament; invitationals are very different. A sense of entitlement is what YOU have described. He does not have the ranking to back up his desire to enter the tournament. I can wish to enter all I want, but I'm just not ranked high enough to enter. Yes, there is nothing against him attempting to make it into the tournament, you are correct. He can attempt to enter. I could too. But that doesn't change that I am doing the community a disservice by being there. Fan voting does not equal earning something. The fact is, his PAST RESULTS, things you cannot change, identify him as a player who hasn't achieved enough to compete at a tournament like this. And most of the Melee community isn't going to vote for him. IF he makes it, it will be because he has a fan base in both games. Melee fans aren't happy that someone is using his large fan base to enter a tournament he hasn't otherwise proven he is a strong enough player to enter into.Do you realize that what you said in the latter contradicts what you said in the former?
"steal a spot from someone more deserving than him", you realize that is just an opinion and to claim it is theft of any kind sounds really immature? If he won the chance he won the chance, no johns.
Doesn't deserve. Who are you to judge that? It's someone who wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve? Seriously where is this entitlement coming from?
The Smash 4 scene does have toxicity, though almost all of it is directed inward rather than towards other games. There's actually very little hostility towards other Smash games within the Smash 4 community, and that which does flare up usually does in response to some Melee player badmouthing the game. It's almost always the Melee people who are keeping these sorts of flame wars going. The Smash 4 community has a lot to criticize, but internecine warfare with other Smash communities is pretty far down the list, and is barely an issue. Our toxicity stems mostly from DLC bandwagoning, DLC whining, patch whining, general meta whining, and even occasionally some ruleset whining. Smash 4 people from my experience are either neutral towards or pro-Melee, at most only criticizing the community, and even that's usually in pretty mild terms. The "Melee autist" people are almost exclusively casuals, and while plenty of the Melee keyboard warriors aren't really good at Melee, a lot more of that kind of attitude is present in the Melee tourney scene than is present for Smash 4. (I will say that most of the Melee people I've encountered have been generally courteous and decent people though)One last thing I want to add, I feel things are very one sided right now. Yes, SOME of the melee community have done some unjustified things recently, but the Smash 4 community isn't full of angels (as ESAM seems to make it out to be). There is a lot of toxicity in that community as well, and singling out Melee is just wrong. Also the SMash 4 community needs to stop victimizing themselves constantly (another thing ESAM did), its really unnecessary
You like Smash 4 than Melee but DOTA 2 more than LoL? Weird. Generally, I would think that people who like 4 are more likely to like LoL, and people who like Meleemore likeley to like Dota, because 4 is more similar/analogous to LoL and Melee is analogous to Dota; 4 and LoL are the casual and easier games, while Melee and Dota are the more hardcore, complicated games.I seriously don't understand how people can fight and argue so much about 2 DIFFERENT Smash games. I personally like Smash 4 more, but I still think Melee is fantastic. I like Samsung a lot more than iPhone, but I don't go around and sh*t on Apple users. I like DOTA a lot more than LoL, but I don't go around and bash people who think the opposite.
Not sure why respect and having an open mind is so hard to learn.
(Btw, that edited picture of Melee's crew facing against some of Smash 4's crew looks pretty darn awesome)
The people voting for ESAM are not a majority. They are a unified minority. If everyone in Melee decided to get behind 1 particular player instead of splitting their votes, ESAM's votes wouldn't even come close. This is the problem with a system like this, and it's being exploited. You could pair almost any top 30 player against ESAM in a 1 vs 1 vote, and ESAM would likely lose. But when there's a dozen people to vote for, it becomes a different story.This argument was ongoing before Smash Summit 2, but it's been made a hot topic because of ESAM's votes. I just have 2 things to say:
1: They are both great games! If you don't like one, it takes more effort to criticize and hate rather then to keep quiet. It's easier if you just don't say anything and keep out of it.
2: Why are people complaining that ESAM is leading in the Smash Summit 2 voting? The MAJORITY of people are voting for him, that's why he's winning! This group of people complaining is a small minority, and I think they should be ignored. There's a reason that Smash Summit lets people vote, and that's so we can see the people we want there, and the most people want ESAM. It's as simple as that. This small minority saying that ESAM doesn't deserve the spot are wrong, and honestly, who cares? Just ignore them.
This. All of this. When and if the next Smash game comes out, Smash 4 will be just as dead as Brawl is now. Melee has survived because it actually works as a competitive game. With a skill ceiling as low as Smash 4's it'll end up the same way in just a few years. That's why I find it sad when people join that community instead of Melee, because Melee actually has the potential to survive, it has an infinitely high skill ceiling that nobody will EVER reach. If we don't care about depth of gameplay and we'd rather just play the shiny new one, then when they stop making shiny new ones there won't BE a Smash community anymore. And I don't wanna think about that day. /:I think it's mostly the fact that the Smash 4 community acts as if the Melee community's support and infrastructure should just be there automatically in every regard, and that we should be #ONEUNIT (lmao). All the big tournament series have Smash 4 events so really it's a non issue, and Melee players do not hold a responsibility to Smash 4 at the most grassroots level, because the whole point of that is it just being people getting together for whatever they enjoy. If they don't enjoy Smash 4, then they won't be playing it.
The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!
Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy
The Melee community is full of dip****s it's true, but Melee's strength as a scene is rooted in its merit as a game. The engine for that game is very well crafted and extremely unique. Melee players play Melee because of the game itself, the mechanics, and Brawl/Smash 4 players largely play those games because they are called Smash. People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.
One thing I will heavily criticise Melee players for these days is their chastising of the Smash 4 community for being inherently scrubby. The irony behind that is that Melee community has been a bunch of ****ing scrubs about Hbox's playstyle, wobbling, characters like Sheik etc for YEARS. "That playstyle is gay", "that's not how you're MEANT to play Melee" when a person wins with a conservative playstyle. **** outta here with that ****, Melee community is just as scrubby tbqh.
I sound kinda angry LOL
P:M is not a replacement for Melee...P:M?
The people voting for ESAM are in no way the "majority" of the Melee community. It's literally just the Smash 4 community trolling us. Lol.This argument was ongoing before Smash Summit 2, but it's been made a hot topic because of ESAM's votes. I just have 2 things to say:
1: They are both great games! If you don't like one, it takes more effort to criticize and hate rather then to keep quiet. It's easier if you just don't say anything and keep out of it.
2: Why are people complaining that ESAM is leading in the Smash Summit 2 voting? The MAJORITY of people are voting for him, that's why he's winning! This group of people complaining is a small minority, and I think they should be ignored. There's a reason that Smash Summit lets people vote, and that's so we can see the people we want there, and the most people want ESAM. It's as simple as that. This small minority saying that ESAM doesn't deserve the spot are wrong, and honestly, who cares? Just ignore them.
That day won't come, because there's something called the Melee community.This. All of this. When and if the next Smash game comes out, Smash 4 will be just as dead as Brawl is now. Melee has survived because it actually works as a competitive game. With a skill ceiling as low as Smash 4's it'll end up the same way in just a few years. That's why I find it sad when people join that community instead of Melee, because Melee actually has the potential to survive, it has an infinitely high skill ceiling that nobody will EVER reach. If we don't care about depth of gameplay and we'd rather just play the shiny new one, then when they stop making shiny new ones there won't BE a Smash community anymore. And I don't wanna think about that day. /:
All Smash games work as competitive games, some more than others. The reason that Melee has stuck around for as long as it has is because there's no other Smash game like it. Smash 4 is pretty much a "better Brawl," and I have little doubt that Smash 5 will be something similar. This is why it was replaced; it does the same thing, but better. Melee, on the other hand, was sort of a one-off thing; that is, Brawl went in a very different direction, and even Smash 4 doesn't fill that same role. Thus, if you want Melee style gameplay, you have to play Melee, so people do play Melee. Brawl and Smash 4 are significantly more similar than Melee and Brawl, so that's why Brawl's fanbase migrated over to the Wii U entry.When and if the next Smash game comes out, Smash 4 will be just as dead as Brawl is now. Melee has survived because it actually works as a competitive game.
It's the closest thing that can be reasonably expected: Melee style gameplay, advanced techniques like wavedashing, a focus on bringing back content from Melee such as top-tier fighters, stages, cut characters, alts based on Melee models, et cetera; plus new changes and improvements such as better visuals, an expanded roster, added features, improved balance. While it may not be the same as Melee (I haven't played nearly enough of either to say), the way I see it, it's the best successor to Melee they could've really expected, especially from Nintendo / Sakurai.P:M is not a replacement for Melee...
Really the difference between Melee and Brawl/Smash 4 in terms of motives as to why one would play each has a lot to do with the fact that Melee is an engine-driven game while Brawl/Smash 4 are character-driven. Melee and Smash 64 have far smaller and less varied rosters than Brawl and Smash 4, and Melee's meta is extremely centralized around a still smaller character pool. You play Melee for crazy engine exploits moreso than for your favorite character, while Brawl/Smash 4 have far larger and more differentiated character rosters.
The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!
I was about to call bulls**t on this, but then I remembered I have a few Sm4sh friends who are exactly this. They too were Brawl players and sang its praises over Melee before Sm4sh came out but then turned around and acted like it was total junk when Sm4sh finally released.People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.
From the constant scrub crying over Bayonetta, Corrin and Cloud shows this.I think it's mostly the fact that the Smash 4 community acts as if the Melee community's support and infrastructure should just be there automatically in every regard, and that we should be #ONEUNIT (lmao). All the big tournament series have Smash 4 events so really it's a non issue, and Melee players do not hold a responsibility to Smash 4 at the most grassroots level, because the whole point of that is it just being people getting together for whatever they enjoy. If they don't enjoy Smash 4, then they won't be playing it.
The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!
Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy
The Melee community is full of dip****s it's true, but Melee's strength as a scene is rooted in its merit as a game. The engine for that game is very well crafted and extremely unique. Melee players play Melee because of the game itself, the mechanics, and Brawl/Smash 4 players largely play those games because they are called Smash. People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.
One thing I will heavily criticise Melee players for these days is their chastising of the Smash 4 community for being inherently scrubby. The irony behind that is that Melee community has been a bunch of ****ing scrubs about Hbox's playstyle, wobbling, characters like Sheik etc for YEARS. "That playstyle is gay", "that's not how you're MEANT to play Melee" when a person wins with a conservative playstyle. **** outta here with that ****, Melee community is just as scrubby tbqh.
I sound kinda angry LOL
If I had to guess, they probably just preferred Brawl over Melee (whether it be for the bigger roster, the easier-to-follow gameplay, or whatever), and then when Smash 4 came along and improved on many of Brawl's flaws, they became all the more apparent with Smash 4 as a foil. But of course, not knowing the people or having any of their exact statements to refer to means that I could very well be wrong here, just taking a guess here.I was about to call bulls**t on this, but then I remembered I have a few Sm4sh friends who are exactly this. They too were Brawl players and sang its praises over Melee before Sm4sh came out but then turned around and acted like it was total junk when Sm4sh finally released.
PM is more balanced, better graphics, etc. and it is more similar to Melee than 4 and Brawl, but I'd argue it's still slower than Melee. Also, PM has been dealt a blow by the fact that it exists in a legal gray area.All Smash games work as competitive games, some more than others. The reason that Melee has stuck around for as long as it has is because there's no other Smash game like it. Smash 4 is pretty much a "better Brawl," and I have little doubt that Smash 5 will be something similar. This is why it was replaced; it does the same thing, but better. Melee, on the other hand, was sort of a one-off thing; that is, Brawl went in a very different direction, and even Smash 4 doesn't fill that same role. Thus, if you want Melee style gameplay, you have to play Melee, so people do play Melee. Brawl and Smash 4 are significantly more similar than Melee and Brawl, so that's why Brawl's fanbase migrated over to the Wii U entry.
It's the closest thing that can be reasonably expected: Melee style gameplay, advanced techniques like wavedashing, a focus on bringing back content from Melee such as top-tier fighters, stages, cut characters, alts based on Melee models, et cetera; plus new changes and improvements such as better visuals, an expanded roster, added features, improved balance. While it may not be the same as Melee (I haven't played nearly enough of either to say), the way I see it, it's the best successor to Melee they could've really expected, especially from Nintendo / Sakurai.
But then again I've never played Melee and have little experience with P:M, so I could very well be wrong about this kinda stuff. Just an outsider looking in here.