Tafokints and Omni Discuss Tensions Between the Melee and Smash 4 Community

With ESAM's inclusion for voting in the Smash Summit 2, tensions have been rising between the Melee and Smash 4 community. While ESAM has made his case to get into Smash Summit 2 here, the issues with the community are still rising. Including recent events where commentators better known for one game or the other have come under fire, it is creating a serious issue. Two respected members of the Smash community, Tafokints and Omni, have both provided their opinions on this matter. We have presented both of these perspectives side by side for viewing and discussion. Give them a watch!

Omni: The Melee Community Rant | Tafo Talks: Are We Alienating Ourselves?

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Both of these community members have very different styles of discussion but share somewhat similar thoughts. What do you, the readers, think? How should the community address these feelings going forward? Start a civil discussion in the comments below and stay tuned to Smashboards for information on future community issues and debates.

 

From the constant scrub crying over Bayonetta, Corrin and Cloud shows this.

It's like EVERYTHING should be nerfed. It's why characters get butchered to hell and back because of constant babies crying that Falcon, Fox, Marth and others can't beat these options. It's why Greninja, Mac, Bowser, Meta Knight, Diddy (post Hoo Haa) and Luigi get harshly nerfed because this community doesn't know the term ADAPT

There's one thing with Diddy but Bayo is straight up overblown as hell.

I really don't agree with your assessment that people banning characters like Meta Knight are unable to "adapt". Meta Knight is actually overpowered in Brawl, so much so that his existence in the game reduces diversity rather than increases it.

 

I think it's mostly the fact that the Smash 4 community acts as if the Melee community's support and infrastructure should just be there automatically in every regard, and that we should be #ONEUNIT (lmao). All the big tournament series have Smash 4 events so really it's a non issue, and Melee players do not hold a responsibility to Smash 4 at the most grassroots level, because the whole point of that is it just being people getting together for whatever they enjoy. If they don't enjoy Smash 4, then they won't be playing it.

The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!

Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy

The Melee community is full of dip****s it's true, but Melee's strength as a scene is rooted in its merit as a game. The engine for that game is very well crafted and extremely unique. Melee players play Melee because of the game itself, the mechanics, and Brawl/Smash 4 players largely play those games because they are called Smash. People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.

One thing I will heavily criticise Melee players for these days is their chastising of the Smash 4 community for being inherently scrubby. The irony behind that is that Melee community has been a bunch of ****ing scrubs about Hbox's playstyle, wobbling, characters like Sheik etc for YEARS. "That playstyle is gay", "that's not how you're MEANT to play Melee" when a person wins with a conservative playstyle. **** outta here with that ****, Melee community is just as scrubby tbqh.

I sound kinda angry LOL

Growing up playing Smash 64 at local tournaments before Melee was even released. I was pissed when everyone stopped playing 64 and made the switch. I tried to play Melee but never got into it mostly because I hated the GameCube controller. On the other hand I still enjoyed playing and watching Melee because it was similar, even though I didn't prefer it.

Brawl came out and I enjoyed that for a while for the same reasons. Although I never saw Brawl as a competitive game like 64 and Melee before it.

When Smash 4 came out I instantly loved it. It reminded me of the play of 64, game speed somewher between 64 and Melee, and the roster of Brawl. All with updated graphics. I thought it was amazing. I've been playing 64, through the lifespan of Melee and Brawl and finally found another Smash that I didn't just enjoy, but loved.

So what? Even if the majority of Smash 4 players just move on to each new installation. Is that really something to hate on the community for? With that logic the 64 community should be hating on the Melee community. It's a terrible excuse.

And as I have said before, I have never heard a 64, Brawl, or Wii U player smack talk another Smash game. Not saying it's never happened; but 100% of what toxicity I have seen in the Smash community has come from Melee fanboys. Everything from calling "64 the Melee demo", Tr4sh, and booing other Smash games finals.

 

1) There's other tournaments.
2) That article picture is cool.

The rest of this discussion is eeeeeeehhhh

 

I really don't agree with your assessment that people banning characters like Meta Knight are unable to "adapt". Meta Knight is actually overpowered in Brawl, so much so that his existence in the game reduces diversity rather than increases it.

I meant Smash 4 Meta Knight not his Brawl counterpart

 

I really don't agree with your assessment that people banning characters like Meta Knight are unable to "adapt". Meta Knight is actually overpowered in Brawl, so much so that his existence in the game reduces diversity rather than increases it.

Meta Knight being banned would change very little, the few top tier characters beneath him still decimate the rest of the cast lol.

Growing up playing Smash 64 at local tournaments before Melee was even released. I was pissed when everyone stopped playing 64 and made the switch. I tried to play Melee but never got into it mostly because I hated the GameCube controller. On the other hand I still enjoyed playing and watching Melee because it was similar, even though I didn't prefer it.

Brawl came out and I enjoyed that for a while for the same reasons. Although I never saw Brawl as a competitive game like 64 and Melee before it.

When Smash 4 came out I instantly loved it. It reminded me of the play of 64, game speed somewher between 64 and Melee, and the roster of Brawl. All with updated graphics. I thought it was amazing. I've been playing 64, through the lifespan of Melee and Brawl and finally found another Smash that I didn't just enjoy, but loved.

So what? Even if the majority of Smash 4 players just move on to each new installation. Is that really something to hate on the community for? With that logic the 64 community should be hating on the Melee community. It's a terrible excuse.

And as I have said before, I have never heard a 64, Brawl, or Wii U player smack talk another Smash game. Not saying it's never happened; but 100% of what toxicity I have seen in the Smash community has come from Melee fanboys. Everything from calling "64 the Melee demo", Tr4sh, and booing other Smash games finals.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the next installment, but there's also a reason why Melee players stick to their game. It's a game that offers an experience extremely unique in comparison to other later installments.

The reason I don't like the idea of switching to a game competitively just because it's the latest installment implies that the players don't actually care at all about the mechanics of the game. I drew on this with how Smash 4 players more often than not insult Brawl, a game which they used to constantly sing the praises of.

And again I'm going to revisit the point that there was essentially zero shieldstun for about a year of Smash 4's life, and suddenly a significant amount was added (that's a HUGE change in the game engine), and yet it didn't seem to cause any sort of alarm in the community. If you loved original Smash 4, then you'd essentially be against the changes to shield stun because it COMPLETELY changes how the neutral game is played, but I guess that doesn't really matter because it's still Smash right?

I mean competitive Smash is hardly my thing these days, so these mechanic changes are just fun things for me to evaluate and compare, but I mean, even though I only play the series casually now, I still find it irksome how competitive Smash 4 players seem to have little regard for the mechanical/engine side of the game, which when you boil it all down, is the reason you're actually playing a game competitively, and not the roster/presentation.

But I mean what do I know, I'm legally blind I shouldn't even be playing videogames.

 

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the next installment, but there's also a reason why Melee players stick to their game. It's a game that offers an experience extremely unique in comparison to other later installments.

The reason I don't like the idea of switching to a game competitively just because it's the latest installment implies that the players don't actually care at all about the mechanics of the game. I drew on this with how Smash 4 players more often than not insult Brawl, a game which they used to constantly sing the praises of.

And again I'm going to revisit the point that there was essentially zero shieldstun for about a year of Smash 4's life, and suddenly a significant amount was added (that's a HUGE change in the game engine), and yet it didn't seem to cause any sort of alarm in the community. If you loved original Smash 4, then you'd essentially be against the changes to shield stun because it COMPLETELY changes how the neutral game is played, but I guess that doesn't really matter because it's still Smash right?

I mean competitive Smash is hardly my thing these days, so these mechanic changes are just fun things for me to evaluate and compare, but I mean, even though I only play the series casually now, I still find it irksome how competitive Smash 4 players seem to have little regard for the mechanical/engine side of the game, which when you boil it all down, is the reason you're actually playing a game competitively, and not the roster/presentation.

But I mean what do I know, I'm legally blind I shouldn't even be playing videogames.

Loving a game, however, doesn't mean that you're not allowed to like a better, improved version more. People do care about the game mechanics; it's just that they happen to keep improving over time since Brawl. Smash 4 is faster, more balanced, has more characters, etc than Brawl; the engine and almost everything surrounding it was improved. Most people don't prefer it over Brawl because of these changes, so they moved over to Smash 4 when it came out. Similarly, increased shieldstun, while obviously not as big of a change, did catch the community's attention. I recall top players being pretty excited about it because it encouraged more aggressive play and whatnot. People didn't just switch because it's the latest installment; people switched because the latest installment also happened to be a better game. (In most people's opinion that is.)

TL;DR: People do care about the mechanical / engine side of things; that's one of the very reasons the community migrated to Smash 4.

 

Omni is fueling the hatred by posting these videos, and he's also a hypocrite. Who remembers his video of him throwing smash 4 into the garbage?

Also, the hate toward games is primarily coming from the no-faces on the internet who will never show up to tournaments, and if they do, they'll probably keep their opinions to themselves. There is no need for this drama.

 

The reason I don't like the idea of switching to a game competitively just because it's the latest installment implies that the players don't actually care at all about the mechanics of the game. I drew on this with how Smash 4 players more often than not insult Brawl, a game which they used to constantly sing the praises of.

And again I'm going to revisit the point that there was essentially zero shieldstun for about a year of Smash 4's life, and suddenly a significant amount was added (that's a HUGE change in the game engine), and yet it didn't seem to cause any sort of alarm in the community. If you loved original Smash 4, then you'd essentially be against the changes to shield stun because it COMPLETELY changes how the neutral game is played, but I guess that doesn't really matter because it's still Smash right?

On one hand, not everyone in competitive Smash 4 were big into Brawl, so not all of the anti-Brawl complaints within the Smash 4 community are hypocritical. However, it's definitely true that some former Brawl players in Smash 4 have in fact adopted the line that Brawl just sucks and had no redeeming features, and that's not really a good thing. However, my personal position is that I liked but didn't love Brawl, and that it did a,b,c well but not x,y,z, and that Smash 4 is better because it fixed x,y,z while keeping a,b,c good. As far as shieldstun went, I was in fact quite concerned with how it might turn out, but now it actually turns out that it wasn't as big as I thought and is in fact a decent change overall.

 

I just feel like when Sakurai tries to make a less competitive game...

 

Omni is fueling the hatred by posting these videos, and he's also a hypocrite. Who remembers his video of him throwing smash 4 into the garbage?

Also, the hate toward games is primarily coming from the no-faces on the internet who will never show up to tournaments, and if they do, they'll probably keep their opinions to themselves. There is no need for this drama.

I think that might have been a joke, but I'm not sure.

 

Omni claiming that the hate on ESAM is because he's a Sm4sh player isn't entirely accurate. Yes, ESAM is a top 100 player according to MIOM. But if we're taking his MIOM placement into consideration, that means there's 80 players more deserving. A lot of people just don't want to bother watching ESAM lose every set he's going to play, because we all know that's what's going to happen. The fact that he would "body 99% of us" is completely irrelevant. We aren't his competition.

As for TKBreezy, people had good reason for their dislike of him on day 1 of Bot5G. He simply hadn't done his research, and he wasn't up to par. The Druggedfox sets were all great examples of how unprepared he was. That said, he did a great job day 2.

The hate of D1 isn't just because he commentates Sm4sh. It's because of how stale and overly professional his commentary has gotten. For a while, he refused to even mention PM, and then after weeks of criticism over it, wrote an apology mentioning that he still loved PM. He then proceeded to never mention it again despite this. The Karissa issue also cast a negative light on him. Even though his actions during the Karissa situation were understandable and things got out of hand, it's still going to cause some people to dislike him. There's also the impression he gives of being incredibly obsessed with his own appearance and reputation. His apologies about the PM and Karissa issues, as well as reports from Prog that he takes 3 hours in the bathroom getting ready before events really affects how people perceive him.

Omni's video is almost saturated with bias. He makes good points every now and then, but whenever opinions come up, he throws some impulsive clickbait at us and people eat it up.

Exactly. He's trying to make people play Melee more. He's biased, so I don't think this should even count as a debate. Smash 4 is here, and it's here to stay, whether people like it or not. They're gonna have to get used to it.

 

Omni is fueling the hatred by posting these videos, and he's also a hypocrite. Who remembers his video of him throwing smash 4 into the garbage?

Also, the hate toward games is primarily coming from the no-faces on the internet who will never show up to tournaments, and if they do, they'll probably keep their opinions to themselves. There is no need for this drama.

I wouldn't necessarily say he's being a hypocrite here. If I'm thinking of the same video you are, he was just predicting that the 4 community wouldn't go anywhere if it didn't start stepping up the leadership on certain issues. Now he's saying that the Melee community is being toxic, which doesn't really contradict the earlier video. It is, however, very wrong and inflammatory, as you said. Lol. Tafo's video is much better.

 

P:M?

it is my Number 1 smash game i only practice melee from time to time and pm is my everyday dreamland. but, it's still far from having Nintendo's blessing.

i stress that , if you are a pm or even a melee player deep in your heart the future is not comfortable. Every event including your game is a particular victory deep in your heart. Because you know you are playing a dated graphic game long discontinued by its editor or a mod.that's why the melee community could be very very sensitive to anything related to melee , actually they have nintendo stamp but they are b*a*s*t*a*r*d*s. PM is a known b*a*s*t*a*r*d i could even say it is easier for pm community in a certain way .

Maybe people don't want to hear that truth but whether they are aware of that or not, Smash4 community doesn't have to worry about anything at all. the game is nintendo's official flagship. There is no even nintendo will put money in without the obvious presence of Smash4.

So Omni no, i don't think the melee scene is exactly discriminating the smash4 one but they just consider that smash4 scene all ready have everything (wich is also negative for relationship)!
melee use to fights for its survival and it was also because fans thought the incredible/unique/gameplay with a basement that has nothing to do with streetFighter of melee should be known. And they did it to be shadowed by another son of their father and that son got more love from him.

In fact NIntendo stops it agressive policy against events featuring Mélée and even start be a sponsort ONLY because they where about to release Smash4.

OK actually melee have it pass for E.V.O but for how long? Smash4 community is a little of melee community+ most/if not all of brawl community + new smash player that start a smash game as casual (of course with the only HD smash game) and get interest in competitive smash.
But for how long new people interest in Smash will go back to the dated graphic one? yeah the game engine is a masterpiece even if the balance is a mess but graphic is the first contact. ANd this is a problem considering a HD opponent on the last avalaible console more easy to hands on.
Actually i know SMash4 players that discovered melee on internet, like how top level play looks and start to play it. But how many people will really make this move instead of playing Smash4 that is also a good game?
Myself I started smash with brawl before falling is love with melee's gameplay, and PM 3.6 is my true masterpiece. BUt it was easy to know about melee because he was the previous one. How about when Smash X will be out how will young player will discover melee, especially with its graphic?
Yes, in future times every gamer that discover smash bros will probably stick to the HD one, smash4, 5 or 6 whatever.
ANd it is really possible that Nintendo will feel enought comfortable with a SMash 6 community of 20 000 entrance at an event to definitively get rid for the 5000 entrance melee will struggle to provive in future times.

it is sad but is think that's the truth. it is nintendo's fault, how will you set peace between 2 children when one has always seek for parent's love, struggling for it and actually the parent is only looking at the other child?
sharing his toys or allow the younger one to play with his friend will not be easy, don't underestimate this.The trauma is deep.
ESAM case is a very negative thing but so obvious to happen looking at the situation.

The one who can really fix that, it is Nintendo/Sakurai.

 

What about 64?

 

It's not the entire Melee community but in my experience the Melee community is toxic second only to the League of Legends community. The only bad talk I have ever heard from players of another Smash game (besides Melee / PM) towards Melee / PM is about how toxic their community can be.

Honestly the first step in stopping the divide of the community should be to stop referring to each game as their own separate communities.

Or to further assimilate into the FGC and strongarm a shift towards their "Play the latest game or play another series" mentality.

Personally, I'd say that if we can't close the gap between the communities, we should go in the opposite direction - let the two communities go their separate ways. Let Melee go down its path of being eSports af, while Smash 4 gets assimilated by the FGC.

 

"Toxic" is such a dumb buzzword and I don't take anyone seriously that unironically uses it. Speaking of taking things seriously, this really shouldn't be that big of a deal. Both communities have their bad apples, melee and its elitists and sm4sh with its inferiority/victim complex, both which are easy to ignore and not worth being a huge debacle over.

Oh and "this why the FGC doesn't take us seriously!!" I wouldn't take the smash community seriously either if they seeking approval from that ****hole of all places.

 

Do you realize that what you said in the latter contradicts what you said in the former?

"steal a spot from someone more deserving than him", you realize that is just an opinion and to claim it is theft of any kind sounds really immature? If he won the chance he won the chance, no johns. And who really has the right to be laughing at someone if he loses, much less badly? He's trying to improve his Melee game because Melee, if he loses, so what? Everyone loses at this game or any competitive game.

The Melee community has no right to do either of those things, that "right" is entitlement to further be obnoxious over one person getting a trip to a Melee tournament. Like seriously? That's really just acting like a huge baby who doesn't get what they want. It doesn't matter how you feel about which specific person gets in, if you can't literally tolerate this at a basic level, then it's you that has the problem, not ESAM.



No.

No.

Absolutely not.

There is like zero documented proof that Smash 4 players are purposely trying to antagonize Melee players when there is clear evidence from EVO and all of the hate Smash 4 got from Melee players and booing when top players were playing, to all of the in-between and now we are at another stage of this where It's people even trying to participate in Smash 4, and Smash 4 players trying to participate in Melee like ESAM with this poll and trip to the Summit.

There is absolutely 0 history of Smash 4 players doing anything like this to Melee as a scene or as a individual tournament, it's only Melee players that are documented of this. Why? Because it literally is Melee players that are the problem. I'm not talking a simple disagreement or some random troll on the net, this is literally effecting this community and Melee players are going out of their way to show their hate because they do not like the game. They don't know how to handle an opinion that is different than theirs other than to ridicule it as if it were a fact.



Doesn't deserve. Who are you to judge that? It's someone who wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve? Seriously where is this entitlement coming from? You can disagree all you want and that's perfectly OK, but this entitlement to bash someone over this? Really guys? It's very childish behavior, like really at the end, it's still gonna be a great tournament and if one person gets over another there will be more tournaments in the future, it's literally not the end of the world or end of smash tournaments and chances.

With a game like Smash where everyone isn't a winner, I think it's rather hilarious that people cannot accept a loss (to them) in this situation.



An idiot for wanting to participate in a tournament for a game loves? and you call him an idiot for that? ESAM has shown he isn't an idiot time and time again with his well thought out videos, so once again sounds like a bunch of whiners who literally are salty because someone from Smash 4 got in over a Melee only player. That's literally all that is going on here and the insults being thrown here with "idiot" and him entering a freakin' tournament is considered a "joke".

Ridiculous.


You call him a child for wanting to enter a big tournament regardless of his skill level? How else do people get better at Smash? and regardless if you can go to lower tournaments, how does that make him a child? Why are you perceiving him in such a "childish" way?

I literally cannot fathom why this is a deal on such a level to anyone, I can understand being disappointed, but to literally throw insults at someone for wanting to enter a tournament and WINNING a poll? That my friend is childish.

We can go back and forth labeling each other and trying to find reasons to hate each other. But it doesn't do any good, a lot of the stuff being directed at ESAM/TK/D1 and others isn't warranted.

If you have issues with a game you do not like, that's fine. A player showing up at summit over others, that is fine. Don't tell people, "Go jump off a bridge" "Get Cancer" "Go back to Tr4sh"

Don't bash people off what games they like to play. Do it based on what they do as a person, not what they like to play.

As I got from Zootopia and really just something that people should know but really isn't working as much is knowing how to improve your community by really telling people to knock it off.

Critiquing is not the same as bashing something, let's make that clear. TK's commentary improved over the weekend, but he dropped out due to people bashing him non stop. D1 has improved over time as well going between games. ESAM if anything is trying to get better at melee if he goes to summit.

Yes ESAM is using smash 4 players to help him, so is pretty much everyone else on the list of voters trying to gather what support they can. It's a popularity contest where he fit the conditions. That's all it is, if you got a huge problem with this then voice it to smash summit for making the conditions like it was.

A lot of stuff from the melee community recently has been very vile. Yes I know other communities do it at times as well, not to this degree or how it has been over the past almost decade.

But let's also put to rest the whole, "If you like melee but do not like smash 4 you are an elitist" No that's not true. If you act like a jerk about it, then yes you are.

If you see people being toxic, call them out on it. Really things like this need to stop at some point and it is only with effort to stop it will it.

I'm shocked to find so many intelligent posts in this thread. Thank you for reminding me that this community isn't just a bunch of ******* morons.

M2K plays both melee and Smash 4 and I've seen no hate for him but ESAM is trashed on for wanting to play Melee better? Please tell me I'm not the only person who has a problem with that.

 

Loving a game, however, doesn't mean that you're not allowed to like a better, improved version more. People do care about the game mechanics; it's just that they happen to keep improving over time since Brawl. Smash 4 is faster, more balanced, has more characters, etc than Brawl; the engine and almost everything surrounding it was improved. Most people don't prefer it over Brawl because of these changes, so they moved over to Smash 4 when it came out. Similarly, increased shieldstun, while obviously not as big of a change, did catch the community's attention. I recall top players being pretty excited about it because it encouraged more aggressive play and whatnot. People didn't just switch because it's the latest installment; people switched because the latest installment also happened to be a better game. (In most people's opinion that is.)

TL;DR: People do care about the mechanical / engine side of things; that's one of the very reasons the community migrated to Smash 4.

Okay, so let me show you something that's going to blow your mind xoxo

The changes that Smash 4 players liked so much from Brawl outside of character balance were things like movement/fall speed as well as hitstun. So basically they enjoyed the fact that the game had increased pace and combo potential. All well and good, although ultimately the game still essentially played like Brawl with how defensive the lack of shieldstun made the game.

Then shieldstun came and as you yourself put it, top players were excited because they could be more aggressive!

Okay so basically with every iterative step on Brawl and Smash 4 which the community feels has "improved" the experience, all that's happened is design decisions have been made that make the game MORE LIKE MELEE.

"Oh it's faster and has more combo potential, that's great". If you want speed and combos why were you playing Brawl/Smash 4 in the first place?

"Oh it has shieldstun now, so I can be more aggressive". If you wanted aggressive shield pressure, why weren't you playing Melee instead?

See here's the thing, if many of these players truly preferred the core gameplay of Brawl/Smash 4 over Melee, they would have been opposed to all these changes (sans tripping) that only served to take the experience closer to Melee. They'd have WANTED the game to stay defensive, with essentially zero pressure on shield, but instead every time a change is made that opens the game up to more aggressive play à la Melee, this is embraced. Why? I'm going to do the horrible thing and just say if people want the game to be more like Melee they can just play it, but for some reason most don't want to because reasons? I kinda think it's just the technical hurdle which I do actually understand (and I think Melee's main techskill barrier is pretty arbitrary), but nobody will ever say that ofc so we'll never know.

Point is, I feel if people really loved the Brawl/original Smash 4 type of gameplay for what it was, they would NOT like the fact that the game has only become more offensive aka Melee like, but they obviously have, so that begs the question as to whether they ever really liked the games they played at all.

 

"Oh no, we decided to determine who gets to go by popularity contest, and now someone that is popular for something else is winning".

That is what ALWAYS happens when you make anything a popularity contest, whatever can pull votes from outside always wins.

 

As someone who enjoys Melee, the Melee community is still extremely toxic and the fact people argue against that is ridiculous to me. People OUTSIDE of the Smash community complain about Melee's community, and that they refuse to play it because of that. It can honestly be up there with CS:GO and LoL sometimes.

 

"Oh no, we decided to determine who gets to go by popularity contest, and now someone that is popular for something else is winning".

That is what ALWAYS happens when you make anything a popularity contest, whatever can pull votes from outside always wins.

The problem is, it's not the Melee community that's voting ESAM in. It's members from the Smash 4 community that I guarantee most of won't be watching the event. ESAM is quite the boring player in melee IMO. At least with players last year that got in that were clearly worse than everyone else, the MELEE community voted them in to WATCH THEM play.

 

There are no tensions. The two communities love eachother. *drops mic. Mic hits his toe. He picks up his foot and falls off the stage. He feels bad about it. He hangs himself later that night.*

 

The people voting for ESAM are not a majority. They are a unified minority. If everyone in Melee decided to get behind 1 particular player instead of splitting their votes, ESAM's votes wouldn't even come close. This is the problem with a system like this, and it's being exploited. You could pair almost any top 30 player against ESAM in a 1 vs 1 vote, and ESAM would likely lose. But when there's a dozen people to vote for, it becomes a different story.

Also, these people voting for ESAM are not as likely to watch the event given that most of them are Sm4sh players and the Summit is a Melee event. They are neither invested in the Melee community or the event. I know this statement will be taken the wrong way by someone, but I think it's wrong for the Sm4sh community to have such a strong voice in something that really doesn't involve or affect the vast majority of them. I'm not trying to say that their opinions aren't important. It's just that most are likely to be less informed and invested in who wins because it doesn't really affect them. It's similar to letting another country elect the President of the US, except that the PotUS actually does have an affect on other countries, whereas who gets in to the Summit it pretty irrelevant to most of the Sm4sh community.

Votes aren't evenly weighed either since you can conditionally get more.

Which is also something to consider.

Okay, so let me show you something that's going to blow your mind xoxo

The changes that Smash 4 players liked so much from Brawl outside of character balance were things like movement/fall speed as well as hitstun. So basically they enjoyed the fact that the game had increased pace and combo potential. All well and good, although ultimately the game still essentially played like Brawl with how defensive the lack of shieldstun made the game.

Then shieldstun came and as you yourself put it, top players were excited because they could be more aggressive!

Okay so basically with every iterative step on Brawl and Smash 4 which the community feels has "improved" the experience, all that's happened is design decisions have been made that make the game MORE LIKE MELEE.

"Oh it's faster and has more combo potential, that's great". If you want speed and combos why were you playing Brawl/Smash 4 in the first place?

"Oh it has shieldstun now, so I can be more aggressive". If you wanted aggressive shield pressure, why weren't you playing Melee instead?

See here's the thing, if many of these players truly preferred the core gameplay of Brawl/Smash 4 over Melee, they would have been opposed to all these changes (sans tripping) that only served to take the experience closer to Melee. They'd have WANTED the game to stay defensive, with essentially zero pressure on shield, but instead every time a change is made that opens the game up to more aggressive play à la Melee, this is embraced. Why? I'm going to do the horrible thing and just say if people want the game to be more like Melee they can just play it, but for some reason most don't want to because reasons? I kinda think it's just the technical hurdle which I do actually understand (and I think Melee's main techskill barrier is pretty arbitrary), but nobody will ever say that ofc so we'll never know.

Point is, I feel if people really loved the Brawl/original Smash 4 type of gameplay for what it was, they would NOT like the fact that the game has only become more offensive aka Melee like, but they obviously have, so that begs the question as to whether they ever really liked the games they played at all.

Your kind of making a bit of an assumption here but still hold some truths.

Some people just like the newest version because of that alone. Not a bad reason if there is appeal in the with characters, stages, game modes and other such things.

You are right I did defend Brawl back in the day. I defended it a lot less when MK with a hint of ice climbers was becoming the meta along with planking issues. I don't agree with banning MK would have done nothing. He would stop being the go to answer for who to always play, that is pretty major.

I'm not sure why you think everyone should support melee gameplay if they liked the changes from patches.

Shield stun wasn't zero or brawl levels before that change to it due to how shield lock frames were interacting with moves. It's why Sheik was getting way more safety than she should have had from a low % move. There were other factors like range and landing lag but she was getting more from this.

Adding more makes the game less defensive and offer better for the whole cast, not because it got closer to melee. You make this assumption that people should be opposed to these changes if they liked the gameplay.

The fact is, they still do because the others aspects you said, arbitrary tech skill, balance, more characters, game mechanics etc. Are why it's a turn off.

I don't hate melee and consider it my #2 game, but there are reasons for it.

1. I hate l cancelling a lot as a mechanic. I can do it but I do not like it.
2. I don't like crouch Cancelling and what it causes at times. It violates basic fighting game principles.
3. Balance and what I play against the most. Also I prefer largest casts.
4. Actual online in the game.

Heck going past this, people still prefer other mediums if smash for one reason or another. Smash 64, PM and even Brawl.

Something appeals to them more on some level and while I gave a few reasons of my perspective on it I don't think it's a stretch to say others have similar.

A lot of things you said are still spot on, just the changes to smash 4 I don't think should imply they would like melee more because they tweeked it to be more aggro.

That's a bit of a leap to assume.

 

#HBC | Red Ryu increasing shieldstun is literally a change in the direction of Melee/64, and lack of shieldstun was a large contributing factor to the extremely defensive style of play Brawl/Smash 4 had.

People who preferred the Brawl/old Smash 4 style of play specifically always mentioned how they preferred the slower pace and also would talk about how these games had "more mindgames" (****in lol) because of the fact that you generally didn't convert into anything past a single hit or a 2 hit combo, especially not many kill setups (rare characters with such rare traits were generally reviled). They defended the games for what they were, which again is absolutely fine because you like what you like, but when you look at how changes were made to add speed and aggression, changes that were WELL RECEIVED, you have to wonder whether the initial defence of the games was actually honest.

Basically, I feel like Melee diehards are attached to a game, and Smash fans are attached to a brand. There isn't any problem with either, I love Melee and I also happen to own all Smash games, because I love the giant fanservice bonanza that only Smash can deliver. However, in a competitive light, Brawl and Smash 4 were defended when they had serious design issues, and those design issues were what the community EMBRACED as being why they PREFERRED the competitive experience to Melee. With the constant changes to the engine from Brawl to Smash 4 and the patching, we now have an experience that distances itself from this and goes more towards the aggressive and fast paced style of play of Melee. It's obviously not the same game and obviously one can prefer it, but the point is that if they really cared for the specific style of play encouraged by Brawl and old Smash 4, then they would not be particularly happy with the changes. They are happy though, which leads me to believe that they don't really care about the mechanical aspect of the game beyond their favourite Nintendo characters having good tier placement, and, of course, the Smash brand and all that comes with it.

So yeah I'm sticking with my point that on their opinions regarding the competitive element of the game, mechanics etc that a significant portion Brawl/Smash 4 community is disingenuous at best.

Also I don't want this to come off as a one sided indictment of the Smash 4 community, it's just the only part of my first post that's being responded to. It's not like I don't have a list a mile long for the Melee community as well.

I've been largely turned off of competitive Smash because of it all lol. Even though I love the people in the community, when it comes to the game side and their attitudes to it I'm just like .____.

 

Teran

Just because people like / defend a game, doesn't mean that it's perfect and cannot be improved upon. Melee is a very different game than Brawl and Smash 4 are; it's extremely fast, technical, and some players just prefer a different type of Smash game. Namely, the style that Brawl and Smash 4 offer. Brawl was a very flawed game, but people still preferred it over Melee because they preferred its core gameplay style over Melee. It had a lot of flaws, but they liked its core more than Melee's, likely due to the slower pace and less focus on techniques like l-canceling and wavedashing. I mean, I don't recall seeing any Brawl players who like hitstun canceling or tripping, but they still enjoyed its core more than Melee's. Naturally, when Smash 4 came along and improved on Brawl's gameplay and fixed many of Brawl's issues, fans of Brawl moved over to the better version. I see nothing wrong with playing an improved version of a game you love over an older, outdated, and more flawed version. (Same goes for the shieldstun patch.)

Liking "changes in the direction of Smash 64 / Melee" doesn't mean that people will like everything about Smash 64 / Melee. (This is actually a logical fallacy.) They may like a faster, less defensive game, but not one that's as fast as Melee, or perhaps don't find all the advanced techniques their cup of tea, or find Melee hard to follow, or find the barrier to entry to be quite high (learning and mastering everything, lots of training, actually getting the 15-year-old game in the first place).

 

Teran

Just because people like / defend a game, doesn't mean that it's perfect and cannot be improved upon. Melee is a very different game than Brawl and Smash 4 are; it's extremely fast, technical, and some players just prefer a different type of Smash game. Namely, the style that Brawl and Smash 4 offer. Brawl was a very flawed game, but people still preferred it over Melee because they preferred its core gameplay style over Melee. It had a lot of flaws, but they liked its core more than Melee's, likely due to the slower pace and less focus on techniques like l-canceling and wavedashing. I mean, I don't recall seeing any Brawl players who like hitstun canceling or tripping, but they still enjoyed its core more than Melee's. Naturally, when Smash 4 came along and improved on Brawl's gameplay and fixed many of Brawl's issues, fans of Brawl moved over to the better version. I see nothing wrong with playing an improved version of a game you love over an older, outdated, and more flawed version. (Same goes for the shieldstun patch.)

Liking "changes in the direction of Smash 64 / Melee" doesn't mean that people will like everything about Smash 64 / Melee. (This is actually a logical fallacy.) They may like a faster, less defensive game, but not one that's as fast as Melee, or perhaps don't find all the advanced techniques their cup of tea, or find Melee hard to follow, or find the barrier to entry to be quite high (learning and mastering everything, lots of training, actually getting the 15-year-old game in the first place).

You're not reading my post properly

 

To be honest I really agree with Teran here. It's true that he's making an assumption of sorts, but I think it really does say something about smash 4 players and why they play the game (the fact that it doesn't have much to do with game mechanics). Now I don't hate on smash 4 players, there is nothing inherently wrong with anyone who plays that game, but I'm convinced that pretty much the only reason smash 4 players aren't playing Melee is that they are misinformed about it and/or its community and don't realize that it's actually the best one

 

Is it just me or does Omni "rant" about a lot of things?

 

You're not reading my post properly

Then what point, exactly, are you trying to make? I saw your main point as "ex-Brawl / now-Smash 4 players value the fact that it's a new game over the actual engine itself." My point is that not only is that an inaccurate generalization, but there are also very valid reasons for those who prefer Brawl's engine over Melee's to move over to Smash 4 besides not caring about the game mechanics. Some people are, in all likelihood, probably like that, but to think that no Smash 4 players care about the engine – the core of the game – is quite the leap in logic, and simply untrue.

To be honest I really agree with Teran here. It's true that he's making an assumption of sorts, but I think it really does say something about smash 4 players and why they play the game (the fact that it doesn't have much to do with game mechanics). Now I don't hate on smash 4 players, there is nothing inherently wrong with anyone who plays that game, but I'm convinced that pretty much the only reason smash 4 players aren't playing Melee is that they are misinformed about it and/or its community and don't realize that it's actually the best one

Or, y'know, because we happen to have a different opinion than you do.

There is no objectively "best" overall Smash game, because which one you prefer is entirely subjective. Sure, Smash 4 might have the most characters and arguable best balance, but at the same time each game offers something that the others don't. 64 has very different mechanics, and a lot of cool 0-deaths and whatnot. Melee has high-octane action and insane, technical plays. Brawl, while perhaps not the best competitively for several reasons, still has a different style of gameplay that some may prefer, as well as robust side content and characters like Snake. And Smash 4 has a nice middle-ground in terms of the game engine, with exciting but easier-to-follow matches and a lot of hype moments. (Plus the biggest, balanced roster and whatnot.)

TL;DR there is no "best Smash game" overall. It's an opinion.

 

Then what point, exactly, are you trying to make? I saw your main point as "ex-Brawl / now-Smash 4 players value the fact that it's a new game over the actual engine itself." My point is that not only is that an inaccurate generalization, but there are also very valid reasons for those who prefer Brawl's engine over Melee's to move over to Smash 4 besides not caring about the game mechanics. Some people are, in all likelihood, probably like that, but to think that no Smash 4 players care about the engine – the core of the game – is quite the leap in logic, and simply untrue.

Or, y'know, because we happen to have a different opinion than you do.

There is no objectively "best" overall Smash game, because which one you prefer is entirely subjective. Sure, Smash 4 might have the most characters and arguable best balance, but at the same time each game offers something that the others don't. 64 has very different mechanics, and a lot of cool 0-deaths and whatnot. Melee has high-octane action and insane, technical plays. Brawl, while perhaps not the best competitively for several reasons, still has a different style of gameplay that some may prefer, as well as robust side content and characters like Snake. And Smash 4 has a nice middle-ground in terms of the game engine, with exciting but easier-to-follow matches and a lot of hype moments. (Plus the biggest, balanced roster and whatnot.)

TL;DR there is no "best Smash game" overall. It's an opinion.

Ah, yes, the "opinion" statement.
Yes, there are opinions. Yes, it is not objective that Melee is the best smash game. But it's useless to just go around blindly saying "ITS AN OPINION!" Any time people talk about smash game preferences or differences between the games that could be seen as good or bad. I don't think everybody should always play Melee. But I stand by my inference that Melee is a more interesting competitive game to most human tastes, and that many people who play smash 4 would actually be more interested in Melee if they ever fully educated themselves about it. Personal experiences have supported this idea. In a YouTube upload of a high level tournament Melee match, for example, I saw a commenter who said something along the lines of: "Holy **** I'm a smash 4 player but I decided to try watching Melee, man i didn't know this game was this insane, now I know why they play it. I'm gonna keep watching this game and maybe even start playing it." Another example, one of my friends irl who only played smash 4 along with several others friends at school lunch, I showed him/told him about Melee, why it's still played competitively, and he's had the chance to play it and he's now been convinced/realized (depending on how you look at it) that it was a more exciting and interesting game. Of course the se are only examples, but that's all I meant them to be. I'm combining them with my general knowledge of both games, communities, and what I've seen scores of people say from each community.

 

It is mostly a general smash issue. TK stuff was fair criticism. Esam stuff is mostly salt due to popularity contest. Plus his reddit post made it even worse.

What popularity contest? What reddit post? Can I have a link to these?

 

#HBC | Red Ryu increasing shieldstun is literally a change in the direction of Melee/64, and lack of shieldstun was a large contributing factor to the extremely defensive style of play Brawl/Smash 4 had.

People who preferred the Brawl/old Smash 4 style of play specifically always mentioned how they preferred the slower pace and also would talk about how these games had "more mindgames" (****in lol) because of the fact that you generally didn't convert into anything past a single hit or a 2 hit combo, especially not many kill setups (rare characters with such rare traits were generally reviled). They defended the games for what they were, which again is absolutely fine because you like what you like, but when you look at how changes were made to add speed and aggression, changes that were WELL RECEIVED, you have to wonder whether the initial defence of the games was actually honest.

Basically, I feel like Melee diehards are attached to a game, and Smash fans are attached to a brand. There isn't any problem with either, I love Melee and I also happen to own all Smash games, because I love the giant fanservice bonanza that only Smash can deliver. However, in a competitive light, Brawl and Smash 4 were defended when they had serious design issues, and those design issues were what the community EMBRACED as being why they PREFERRED the competitive experience to Melee. With the constant changes to the engine from Brawl to Smash 4 and the patching, we now have an experience that distances itself from this and goes more towards the aggressive and fast paced style of play of Melee. It's obviously not the same game and obviously one can prefer it, but the point is that if they really cared for the specific style of play encouraged by Brawl and old Smash 4, then they would not be particularly happy with the changes. They are happy though, which leads me to believe that they don't really care about the mechanical aspect of the game beyond their favourite Nintendo characters having good tier placement, and, of course, the Smash brand and all that comes with it.

So yeah I'm sticking with my point that on their opinions regarding the competitive element of the game, mechanics etc that a significant portion Brawl/Smash 4 community is disingenuous at best.

Also I don't want this to come off as a one sided indictment of the Smash 4 community, it's just the only part of my first post that's being responded to. It's not like I don't have a list a mile long for the Melee community as well.

I've been largely turned off of competitive Smash because of it all lol. Even though I love the people in the community, when it comes to the game side and their attitudes to it I'm just like .____.

This is where I'm not really in agreement.

Pushing more base air speed or safer moves is making it a more aggro does in a way make it more melee like, I not do think that in itself makes it something people should say, "yeah I would actually like melee more"

People attach themselves to a lot of games for a lot of different reasons. They aren't just straight up saying, "which game is objectively the best compedtive." You could run in circles and argue til someone face turns blue, you won't reach a consensus.

Aspects of melee can be a turn off, it's not a perfect masterpiece to people. I think it is very incorrect to say why people like a game more than another is disingenuous. They have reasons to like one over another and these reasons can change.

Smash 4 players turned on brawl. Ya know even I did a bit to where I liked melee over it, but due to other factors and a change in the metagame where MK turned into the best.

I turned to 4 when it came out and really a lot of it was fixing large issues that people had with Brawl. Planking is not possible anymore, patches fix balance issues, online is leagues better, no tripping.

I mean people like 64, PM, smash flash and even Brawl right now over it. Are you suggesting all these communities are the same?

Is it an issue people leave for the next installment like every other fighting game ever? Melee is a huge exception to this, not even SF2, CS:GO, MvC2 etc hit that level of big even after another installment.

I would agree a lot of S4 people like the series and may not be as hugely attached to one single game like people with melee:

I do not think that their love of the game is not sincere. There are people like me who do sincere love the game.

And I love melee as well, I just like another game more.

 

Ah, yes, the "opinion" statement.
Yes, there are opinions. Yes, it is not objective that Melee is the best smash game. But it's useless to just go around blindly saying "ITS AN OPINION!" Any time people talk about smash game preferences or differences between the games that could be seen as good or bad. I don't think everybody should always play Melee. But I stand by my inference that Melee is a more interesting competitive game to most human tastes, and that many people who play smash 4 would actually be more interested in Melee if they ever fully educated themselves about it. Personal experiences have supported this idea. In a YouTube upload of a high level tournament Melee match, for example, I saw a commenter who said something along the lines of: "Holy **** I'm a smash 4 player but I decided to try watching Melee, man i didn't know this game was this insane, now I know why they play it. I'm gonna keep watching this game and maybe even start playing it." Another example, one of my friends irl who only played smash 4 along with several others friends at school lunch, I showed him/told him about Melee, why it's still played competitively, and he's had the chance to play it and he's now been convinced/realized (depending on how you look at it) that it was a more exciting and interesting game. Of course the se are only examples, but that's all I meant them to be. I'm combining them with my general knowledge of both games, communities, and what I've seen scores of people say from each community.

But there are still people, like me, who prefer Smash 4's pace over Melee's. I'm also not a big fan of wavedashing, l-canceling, etc (the former isn't detrimental to the game design however, just not my cup of tea). There are, yes, "differences between the games that could be seen as good or bad," but whether they are "seen as good or bad" is a matter of personal preference. While Melee's speed may be enjoyable to some, and there's nothing wrong with that ofc, I prefer Smash 4's middle-ground pace. Even with objective stuff, such as a bigger roster, there are opinions to it: some may prefer a bigger, more diverse roster, while others may prefer a smaller, more focused roster.

 

Then what point, exactly, are you trying to make? I saw your main point as "ex-Brawl / now-Smash 4 players value the fact that it's a new game over the actual engine itself." My point is that not only is that an inaccurate generalization, but there are also very valid reasons for those who prefer Brawl's engine over Melee's to move over to Smash 4 besides not caring about the game mechanics. Some people are, in all likelihood, probably like that, but to think that no Smash 4 players care about the engine – the core of the game – is quite the leap in logic, and simply untrue.

Or, y'know, because we happen to have a different opinion than you do.

There is no objectively "best" overall Smash game, because which one you prefer is entirely subjective. Sure, Smash 4 might have the most characters and arguable best balance, but at the same time each game offers something that the others don't. 64 has very different mechanics, and a lot of cool 0-deaths and whatnot. Melee has high-octane action and insane, technical plays. Brawl, while perhaps not the best competitively for several reasons, still has a different style of gameplay that some may prefer, as well as robust side content and characters like Snake. And Smash 4 has a nice middle-ground in terms of the game engine, with exciting but easier-to-follow matches and a lot of hype moments. (Plus the biggest, balanced roster and whatnot.)

TL;DR there is no "best Smash game" overall. It's an opinion.

I'm glad you did it because I had no idea how I was going to respond to Andrew. There are countless reasons why 4 players prefer it over Melee, just as there are countless reasons why Melee players prefer their game to 64.

1. Players may prefer 4 because they are new to the scene and it's the first smash game they have ever played competitively or casual. 2. Melee is a much harder scene to get into do to the larger amount of advanced tech, outdated graphics (Not that they matter to me, I play 64. But they matter to alot of people and it's stupid.), and the intimidating scene. 3. Because 4 is the balance of the best things about 64, Melee and Brawl all in one. Contrary to popular belief the balancing of 4 hasn't changed the game as drastically as you make it sound and the core gameplay remains the same. 4. SPOILER ALERT! Some people just never liked playing Melee.

A lot of this conversation is Melee players stating the same things over and over agian while the Smash 4 players are giving original rebuttals to the same points.

 

But there are still people, like me, who prefer Smash 4's pace over Melee's. I'm also not a big fan of wavedashing, l-canceling, etc (the former isn't detrimental to the game design however, just not my cup of tea). There are, yes, "differences between the games that could be seen as good or bad," but whether they are "seen as good or bad" is a matter of personal preference. While Melee's speed may be enjoyable to some, and there's nothing wrong with that ofc, I prefer Smash 4's middle-ground pace. Even with objective stuff, such as a bigger roster, there are opinions to it: some may prefer a bigger, more diverse roster, while others may prefer a smaller, more focused roster.

Yes, there are people like you who have your preferences. And I don't think you should just switch over to Melee. Why? Because you prefer smash 4! I don't have any problem with that! Yes, there are opinions, and I'm perfectly fine that some people prefer smash 4 just because that's what they prefer. Im not arguing that Melee is objectively better, which you seem to think I'm doing. I'm just arguing that, based on my knowledge, observations, and experience, there are many people, potentially a large portion of the smash 4 playerbase, who WOULD be more naturally inclined to prefer Melee, but never actually became informed about the game. They just went to the new game because it never really occurred to them that previous games still had competitive scenes, potentially never even realizing competitive Mele existed at all. Or perhaps they fall to extreme misconceptions about the game and/or its community. "Melee elitists just can't accept that smash 4 is better" "Melee drones just can't move on from their ****ty game" "Why are people still playing Melee? We have a newer, better smash bros..." I've seen all of these things and more being said by smash 4 players, and it's disgusting. Essentially what I'm saying is that if these people had actually seen competitive Melee, had seen the documentary, had actually come to understand this game community and why it still exists, many of them would be playing Melee. That's my argument; the fact that smash 4 is the newest game in the series has drawn away many players when the things that actually matter, game mechanics, would have drawn them in the other direction.

 

I'm glad you did it because I had no idea how I was going to respond to Andrew. There are countless reasons why 4 players prefer it over Melee, just as there are countless reasons why Melee players prefer their game to 64.

1. Players may prefer 4 because they are new to the scene and it's the first smash game they have ever played competitively or casual. 2. Melee is a much harder scene to get into do to the larger amount of advanced tech, outdated graphics (Not that they matter to me, I play 64. But they matter to alot of people and it's stupid.), and the intimidating scene. 3. Because 4 is the balance of the best things about 64, Melee and Brawl all in one. Contrary to popular belief the balancing of 4 hasn't changed the game as drastically as you make it sound and the core gameplay remains the same. 4. SPOILER ALERT! Some people just never liked playing Melee.

A lot of this conversation is Melee players stating the same things over and over agian while the Smash 4 players are giving original rebuttals to the same points.

Even if MunoMario disagrees with what I'm saying, I think/hope he agrees that we are having a mature conversation, so there's really no need to come in with dumb blanket statements like "A lot of this conversation is Melee players stating the same things over and over agian while the Smash 4 players are giving original rebuttals to the same points."
Also, this is unrelated, but why do you think 4 is a balance of the earlier 3 games? 4 is basically a carbon copy of brawl with more balanced characters. It has nothing of Melee or 64 in it.

 

Then what point, exactly, are you trying to make? I saw your main point as "ex-Brawl / now-Smash 4 players value the fact that it's a new game over the actual engine itself." My point is that not only is that an inaccurate generalization, but there are also very valid reasons for those who prefer Brawl's engine over Melee's to move over to Smash 4 besides not caring about the game mechanics. Some people are, in all likelihood, probably like that, but to think that no Smash 4 players care about the engine – the core of the game – is quite the leap in logic, and simply untrue.

You're basically giving the pedantic "not all" "don't generalise" response coupled with "I'm certainly not in that boat", which goes against the point of the GENERAL VIBE from the community.

The general vibe given off the community is always a valid point to consider, just as how the Melee community's perceived hostility and elitism not being indicative of every member of that community doesn't make it any less of an real issue.

The problem is that outside of tripping, Brawl's overall design was PRAISED by its community. How can you honestly justify flat out praise only to be like "yeaaaaah actually that was kinda ****" when the new game hits? If it had just been "well yeah these things suck but I like ____", maybe I'd buy the idea that they honestly appreciate these mechanic changes, but the fact of the matter is they didn't like Brawl for what it was. I'm actually one of those rare people who DID enjoy Brawl for what it is, like really, all the bull**** etc. I never really defended the game because design wise it was a train wreck, but the Japanese moniker of kusoge fit quite well for it and I had a lot of fun with it over the years. I just found it immensely hypocritical of the community to chastise it and say it was so bad, when they would always complain about the criticisms Melee players had of the game.

Smash 4 is actually a decent game now engine wise, but really with Smash 5 I can guarantee that as long as there's a large roster, lots of cute tracks, stages and the gameplay at least resembles Smash on a basic level, then the majority of the Smash 4 crowd WILL move on and embrace it, regardless of how it plays at a deeper level.

I feel like we're just going to go round in circles here so I might as well wrap it up here, this will be my last reply to you on here but idk if you really wanna talk about it just message me on my profile or Skype or something lol, you're actually pretty nice which is not something I usually encounter on the boards when it comes to these kinds of topics. :3

Is it an issue people leave for the next installment like every other fighting game ever? Melee is a huge exception to this, not even SF2, CS:GO, MvC2 etc hit that level of big even after another installment.

Melee being a huge exception to the rule I feel is something that's really telling about Brawl's design, I mean the hype and anticipation leading up to Brawl was enormous. The community definitely did want to move on. In any case yes the FGC (different beast entirely) usually just jumps onto the sequel (and with developers now supporting their current releases in tournament it seems like an inevitability now), but that's clearly had negative impacts on the community. The fabled Dark Age of Fighting Games was during the Third Strike era, and competitively that game could be described as suspect at best (don't start with the Daigo parry line), and you know what? The FGC almost faded away with them honestly expecting there to be no SF4. Competitive players just didn't like 3rd Strike for the most part, and because of the whole "play the latest game" mentality, the FGC had its lowest ebb.

I would agree a lot of S4 people like the series and may not be as hugely attached to one single game like people with melee:

I do not think that their love of the game is not sincere. There are people like me who do sincere love the game.

I'm not saying they don't love the package, but I feel their love is far less rooted at the deeper mechanical level, and more just the fact that it's a Nintendo All Star battle, which isn't a problem, but they act like they love the mechanics when their ****ting on Brawl and embracing complete 180s in design philosophy clearly show they're not too bothered with how the game plays.

Edit: Also on a humorous semit related note, can Smash 4 players stop saying "this game is the most balanced in the series", then turn around and ask for characters to be banned/nerfed?

Oh ban Diddy ban Sheik ban Bayo. It reflects really badly on the community

 

You're basically giving the pedantic "not all" "don't generalise" response coupled with "I'm certainly not in that boat", which goes against the point of the GENERAL VIBE from the community.

The general vibe given off the community is always a valid point to consider, just as how the Melee community's perceived hostility and elitism not being indicative of every member of that community doesn't make it any less of an real issue.

The problem is that outside of tripping, Brawl's overall design was PRAISED by its community. How can you honestly justify flat out praise only to be like "yeaaaaah actually that was kinda ****" when the new game hits? If it had just been "well yeah these things suck but I like ____", maybe I'd buy the idea that they honestly appreciate these mechanic changes, but the fact of the matter is they didn't like Brawl for what it was. I'm actually one of those rare people who DID enjoy Brawl for what it is, like really, all the bull**** etc. I never really defended the game because design wise it was a train wreck, but the Japanese moniker of kusoge fit quite well for it and I had a lot of fun with it over the years. I just found it immensely hypocritical of the community to chastise it and say it was so bad, when they would always complain about the criticisms Melee players had of the game.

Smash 4 is actually a decent game now engine wise, but really with Smash 5 I can guarantee that as long as there's a large roster, lots of cute tracks, stages and the gameplay at least resembles Smash on a basic level, then the majority of the Smash 4 crowd WILL move on and embrace it, regardless of how it plays at a deeper level.

I feel like we're just going to go round in circles here so I might as well wrap it up here, this will be my last reply to you on here but idk if you really wanna talk about it just message me on my profile or Skype or something lol, you're actually pretty nice which is not something I usually encounter on the boards when it comes to these kinds of topics. :3



Melee being a huge exception to the rule I feel is something that's really telling about Brawl's design, I mean the hype and anticipation leading up to Brawl was enormous. The community definitely did want to move on. In any case yes the FGC (different beast entirely) usually just jumps onto the sequel (and with developers now supporting their current releases in tournament it seems like an inevitability now), but that's clearly had negative impacts on the community. The fabled Dark Age of Fighting Games was during the Third Strike era, and competitively that game could be described as suspect at best (don't start with the Daigo parry line), and you know what? The FGC almost faded away with them honestly expecting there to be no SF4. Competitive players just didn't like 3rd Strike for the most part, and because of the whole "play the latest game" mentality, the FGC had its lowest ebb.



I'm not saying they don't love the package, but I feel their love is far less rooted at the deeper mechanical level, and more just the fact that it's a Nintendo All Star battle, which isn't a problem, but they act like they love the mechanics when their ****ting on Brawl and embracing complete 180s in design philosophy clearly show they're not too bothered with how the game plays.

Edit: Also on a humorous semit related note, can Smash 4 players stop saying "this game is the most balanced in the series", then turn around and ask for characters to be banned/nerfed?

Oh ban Diddy ban Sheik ban Bayo. It reflects really badly on the community

Nerf buff complaints happen in every game that can be patched, this is nothing new and really what new gen competitive games will be like. Happens in League/Dota/SF5/smash etc. IT's nothing new to stuff that happens now. If Melee was patchable it would happen there as well. Looking at PRs and other things yeah I do think 4 is the most balanced in terms of results. That or PM but I don't keep up with PM enough to make that judgement call.

Honestly I can't remember a recent release of an FGC game til 08' came out. There probably were games that came out but for the life of me I can't recall them outside of MvC2, SF3 and maybe guilty gear?

So maybe that was a dead period til SF4 and other games started to rise up and hit it big again. I don't think the play the latest game mentality was at fault with this at all, when frankly I can't recall anything being big during that period. FGC is the biggest right now if anything.

I agree some of the love may not be rooted in the mechanics entirely, for me it certainly is and I know others who are similar.

The ****ting on Brawl is a lot of people getting into smash now and not really being there. Even if they were and some do now, people change in opinions and thoughts. There is no 180 in design, making a game a bit more aggressive is not embracing, "Let's make it melee"

For all you know it could have no relation to melee at all when shield changes and characters, mostly at the lower end of the tier list, were improved in speed and frame data.

They care how the game plays clearly, even people in other games have issues with games they love like PM people having the millionth L-Canceling debate.

 

Very good video.

I am a Sm4sh player... be it a medicore at best one... much worse if compared only to the competitive scene. (A # of reasons for that including but not limited to not enough people to train against, lack of time, a person at home who interrupts my attempts to do anything but anyway)..

Regardless... People rightfully have opinions when a squeal of a game they love loses what made it great to them. To this day, I don't like the cell shaded style graphics Windwaker brought into the Zelda series. (Great game in it's own right but I still don't like the graphic.) I was pretty frustrated when when star fox adventures completely abandoned what made me enjoy 64, and then how assault tried to do both... not going to buy it if I have to do the adventure stuff to get what I want... And What in the world is with Mario's water gun in sunshine... Still those are personal opinions... and if anyone enjoys those games, who am I to say "YOU ARE HAVING FUN WRONG!!!"

But... those are personal opinions. To competitive melee players I can see how the wave dash and other advanced stuff that made the game for them became what was great about Smash. I understand how they would have wanted Brawl and 4 to be that with more characters... and i understand the frustration that what they loved is taking.

But as the video said it becomes a problem when opinions turn from that into "We are better than you!!!" Humans seem to really have a stupid combination of desire to be better than someone and lazyness to do anything to earn it... so where they are from, what they like, becomes justification... it is quite stupid but this is far from exclusive to the Smash Communities... it seems to me like one of the negative pieces of human nature.

Personally I didn't get the chance to learn Melee... I was young enough where I had to listen to a mother who bought into the video games will make your kids serial killers controversy, and in some ways took it further... by the time I was old enough, and read through some 50+ page study on video game violence and could tell her that the study subjects were rated M (other than mortal combat, but that one studied was pre ESRB so I could tell her the squeal was)... by the time all that happened I knew I was way to far behind to expect to be able to learn any of it.

To me, it was a bit of a relief that it was removed from Brawl... and wasn't something I would need to learn.

Sm4sh for me is the most fun in the series... large character roster, better balance than previous installments... and the stuff I need to learn doesn't feel nearly as intimidating as looking at Melee.

But... again personal opinion. Game developers have a difficult task making squeals that keep what made the series great, while changing it enough where it isn't the same game... without moving away from what makes it great. Can't please everyone... but no reason we need to hate each other either.

 

Very good video.

I am a Sm4sh player... be it a medicore at best one... much worse if compared only to the competitive scene. (A # of reasons for that including but not limited to not enough people to train against, lack of time, a person at home who interrupts my attempts to do anything but anyway)..

Regardless... People rightfully have opinions when a squeal of a game they love loses what made it great to them. To this day, I don't like the cell shaded style graphics Windwaker brought into the Zelda series. (Great game in it's own right but I still don't like the graphic.) I was pretty frustrated when when star fox adventures completely abandoned what made me enjoy 64, and then how assault tried to do both... not going to buy it if I have to do the adventure stuff to get what I want... And What in the world is with Mario's water gun in sunshine... Still those are personal opinions... and if anyone enjoys those games, who am I to say "YOU ARE HAVING FUN WRONG!!!"

But... those are personal opinions. To competitive melee players I can see how the wave dash and other advanced stuff that made the game for them became what was great about Smash. I understand how they would have wanted Brawl and 4 to be that with more characters... and i understand the frustration that what they loved is taking.

But as the video said it becomes a problem when opinions turn from that into "We are better than you!!!" Humans seem to really have a stupid combination of desire to be better than someone and lazyness to do anything to earn it... so where they are from, what they like, becomes justification... it is quite stupid but this is far from exclusive to the Smash Communities... it seems to me like one of the negative pieces of human nature.

Personally I didn't get the chance to learn Melee... I was young enough where I had to listen to a mother who bought into the video games will make your kids serial killers controversy, and in some ways took it further... by the time I was old enough, and read through some 50+ page study on video game violence and could tell her that the study subjects were rated M (other than mortal combat, but that one studied was pre ESRB so I could tell her the squeal was)... by the time all that happened I knew I was way to far behind to expect to be able to learn any of it.

To me, it was a bit of a relief that it was removed from Brawl... and wasn't something I would need to learn.

Sm4sh for me is the most fun in the series... large character roster, better balance than previous installments... and the stuff I need to learn doesn't feel nearly as intimidating as looking at Melee.

But... again personal opinion. Game developers have a difficult task making squeals that keep what made the series great, while changing it enough where it isn't the same game... without moving away from what makes it great. Can't please everyone... but no reason we need to hate each other either.

You are one of the few reasonable people in this thread
You should just know, it's really never too late to learn Melee!