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Tafokints and Omni Discuss Tensions Between the Melee and Smash 4 Community

With ESAM's inclusion for voting in the Smash Summit 2, tensions have been rising between the Melee and Smash 4 community. While ESAM has made his case to get into Smash Summit 2 here, the issues with the community are still rising. Including recent events where commentators better known for one game or the other have come under fire, it is creating a serious issue. Two respected members of the Smash community, Tafokints and Omni, have both provided their opinions on this matter. We have presented both of these perspectives side by side for viewing and discussion. Give them a watch!

Omni: The Melee Community Rant | Tafo Talks: Are We Alienating Ourselves?
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Both of these community members have very different styles of discussion but share somewhat similar thoughts. What do you, the readers, think? How should the community address these feelings going forward? Start a civil discussion in the comments below and stay tuned to Smashboards for information on future community issues and debates.
 

Comments

A lot of people I know just don't want Esam to get in over players that would put up a good show.
Let's be honest here, unless Esam jumps into a Hyperbolic Melee Chamber, it's going to be a bloodfest when you consider the skill level of the other guys there.
I was just thinking this, I think he's going to get bodied. I've seen a couple of his Melee matches and while he does ok, it's not like it's impressive stuff. And if they're saying he has a good Samus all I can say is pfffffft. No words. I have a friend who's a way better Samus than him.
 
@Omni This is literally the first time I have ever agreed with you. I am going to share this video to everyone because it spreads a message that needs to be heard.

As for the Melee community, I'm just going to start by saying I loved the game through my high school years. I loved everything about the Melee I played, but guess what? Augusta had no tournament scene. I didn't know anything about advanced tactics until shortly before Brawl came out. But none of them made any sense to me. Once Brawl came out, I made a full-time switch to the game.

There are plenty of things I'm not a fan of in Melee, but seriously, does my opinion make a difference? Of course not. Smash 4 is perhaps the single most enjoyable game I have ever played in my entire life. But can I acknowledge the fact that Melee still has a thriving fanbase 14+ years later? Absolutely. I have no reason to dish out on the Melee community and their passionate players.

Unfortunately, there are poisonous people in the community who are the elites. There are plenty of people who love Melee and don't hate Smash 4, but you know what they say about the vocal minority, correct? They're the loudest voices that represent the scene, and as long as "tr4sh" isn't stopped on the internet forums, it's going to continue getting worse.

Also unfortunately for them, however, is that Smash 4 is a thriving fanbase. It introduced many new players to the scene, brought the Brawl players to a game that didn't have the few select top tiers and tripping ruining their game, and play in tournaments that even Nintendo is acknowledging and sponsoring (which is one of the single greatest things to ever happen to Smash). That being said, on its second year, it's a constantly growing fanbase with a constantly evolving meta and new players coming in every month.

Those of you who are ripping on Smash 4 because it doesn't have "advanced technique", you're only hurting your own game. If the people who played Smash 4 WANTED to wavedash, to waveshine, and to use your ATs, they would have made the switch to Melee already. They chose not to because they don't find it enjoyable. You can't convince them otherwise, and you have no right to dish out on them for their preference.

That being said, you're also hurting your scene because you're making the Melee community look awful. You're turning potential new players away from a scene that's deemed elitist and uninviting. You're keeping players from wanting to watch Melee streams at nationals, which will cause a dwindle in numbers on Twitch viewership, and lower the popularity of the game. As a result, while Smash 4 thrives on a more friendly community and new players, Melee and its hardened players will lose popularity because, despite the efforts of some of the best players around, it just takes some vocal players to ruin the reputation of the game and completely bring it down. You may not think your actions have repercussions in the long run, but they do. And your mentality will cause a decline in Melee's popularity as the years go by and Smash 4 continues its rise.

Treat your fellow Smashers with respect so we can all try to get along here.
 
If ESAM wants to try to steal a spot from someone more deserving than him, then so be it. Let him get beaten so badly that he realizes what a joke that was. The Melee community has a right to be irritated at it, but also a right to laugh him to death afterward.

Enough calling the Melee community "ruthless." They're not. It's not the Melee community persay, but select people in it. Just like there are select people in the Sm4sh community that are no better. Yes, there are people in the Melee community that need to grow up. There are also those in the Sm4sh community that are pretty terrible. Most of the top Melee players enter Sm4sh tournaments, and M2K even draws more Youtube views and crowd hype than 95% of the Sm4sh exclusive players. Some of his sets have topped 400k views. Toxicity goes both ways, and more often than not you choose to see what you want to see, and ignore what you don't like about your own community. Omni has demonstrated this principle beautifully in recent months. Perhaps it is time for the Melee community leaders to make a call to action for the rising generation of players to grow up and act a little more mature, but even so, the Sm4sh community could use the same.

The Sm4sh community, in my humble observations, has been guilty of more of this nonsense than the Melee people. I have seen MANY Sm4sh people bash Melee quite harshly, in an attempt to put down the old game to gain their game popularity. But in reality, it comes down to each individual person. What do YOU contribute? If you're engaging in this conversation too excitedly, you're probably contributing to the bad blood. Enough accusations, enough "call outs." Lead by example, not by small talk on an internet forum, or a stream chat.

That being said, this really has absolutely nothing to do with what's happened. The fact is, ESAM is NOT the best Melee player. And while it might be "cool" to vote in an underdog, there are many, MANY more players that don't have a huge Sm4sh fanbase, that are far more deserving of this spot than he is. He is trying to earn something he doesn't deserve by using silly, childish methods. And it's really no wonder the Melee community has expressed annoyance at it. He's just not good enough to enter such a high caliber tournament. Period.

Sadly, most communities are comprised of mostly immature people, so many of them have not expressed this very effectively. But that is not an excuse to call the Melee community vile. It is, rather, an excuse for the Melee leaders to show the proper way to handle things, and the Sm4sh people to realize ESAM is kind of an idiot. If you truly cared about "respecting each other's games", as so many of you have stated, then you'd realize that ESAM trying to enter this tournament is a joke and it's not really funny to the Melee players.

If he does make it, and he does do well, then you know what? Kudos. Brava. He deserves a spotlight for a time, because he caused huge ripples and contributed something. But the chances of that happening are practically zero, so until he proves that he's up to the task by actually doing something at other, less important tournaments, this is pathetic. A child's attempt at grabbing attention where it does not belong.
 
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If ESAM wants to try to steal a spot from someone more deserving than him, then so be it. Let him get beaten so badly that he realizes what a joke that was. The Melee community has a right to be irritated at it, but also a right to laugh him to death afterward.
Good point.
 
I guess any criticism is considered hate now.
Now this is truth if I ever saw it. Certain groups in todays world simply can't e
fathom the idea that people disagree with them, and they start throwing around buzzwords like hate, racist, hitler etc etc.
 
To put it another way, what if sm4sh had something similar to summit and a Melee player who's been recorded as having said that he doesn't like Sm4sh all that much tried to use their Melee fame to essentially snatch a spot from a more deserving Sm4sh player. Wouldn't that piss you off BIG TIME? I've never cared that much for ESAM. I think him refusing to see other points of view(Miigalty anybody?) is NOT the kind of attitude the smash bros community in general needs. ESAM pretty much pulling the victim card the other day was the final straw for I think a lot of people.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing what Mango or PPMD or some other top Melee player could do. A bit of crossover is healthy for both scenes in terms of pulling new people in. One slot for a high profile Melee player who might not technically have as much a track record in Smash 4 as other players doesn't really bother me since I think the potential benefits and intrigue factor make it worthwhile.
 
Now this is truth if I ever saw it. Certain groups in todays world simply can't e
fathom the idea that people disagree with them, and they start throwing around buzzwords like hate, racist, hitler etc etc.
Sure but I wouldn't say that calling 64 "The demo version of Melee" or Sm4sh "Tr4sh" is a simple disagreement or criticism.

Many Melee players talk crap about the other 3 games in the series. And I've never heard a 64, Brawl, or Wii U player say anything bad about Melee. Not saying it's never happened but anyone saying Smash 4 players are just as toxic hasn't referenced any senarios.

I appreciate everything Melee has done for competitive Smash and as I've said before I love watching Melee. But alot of Melee fanboys even seem to forget that without 64 there would be no Melee.
 
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Sure but I wouldn't say that calling 64 "The demo version of Melee" or Sm4sh "Tr4sh" is a simple disagreement or criticism.

Many Melee players talk crap about the other 3 games in the series. And I've never heard a 64, Brawl, or Wii U player say anything bad about Melee. Not saying it's never happened but anyone saying Smash 4 players are just as toxic hasn't referenced any senarios.

I appreciate everything Melee has done for competitive Smash and as I've said before I love watching Melee. But alot of Melee fanboys even seem to forget that without 64 there would be no Melee.
In all fairness, I've never seen a single bad thing said about 64 anywhere besides one or two predictable Twitch chat comments.

I've never actually seen anyone who plays a Smash game talk bad about any of the Smash games in person, with the exception of a few Sm4sh players bashing their own game, usually preceded and/or followed by comments about Bayonetta.
 
In all fairness, I've never seen a single bad thing said about 64 anywhere besides one or two predictable Twitch chat comments.

I've never actually seen anyone who plays a Smash game talk bad about any of the Smash games in person, with the exception of a few Sm4sh players bashing their own game, usually preceded and/or followed by comments about Bayonetta.
Leffen and Armada ripped on it hard calling worse than Brawl on stream in the past.

I have seen people rip on other smash games in person, dunno why it's limit to just one group here in this comment when it clearly isn't.
 
In all fairness, I've never seen a single bad thing said about 64 anywhere besides one or two predictable Twitch chat comments.

I've never actually seen anyone who plays a Smash game talk bad about any of the Smash games in person, with the exception of a few Sm4sh players bashing their own game, usually preceded and/or followed by comments about Bayonetta.
I've seen quite a lot of it back in the Brawl days, but that's because I had a youtube series about it. I got a lot of pretty vitrolic hate mail from the melee community pretty consistently back in the day though, and this was pre-twitch. That said, I still accept it's a vocal minority, but I definitely agree with the people saying that it's not simply a matter of difference of opinion or just letting everyone do their thing.

Mind you. I think a lot of progress has been made simply by having community leaders continue to shun and point out egregious cases of the vitrol. And no. The fault isn't entirely with melee. I've seen quite a few ****ty Smash 4 players, but I'd be lying if I didn't think a good 80-90% of it wasn't coming from the melee end of things. Then again. I'm coming from a pretty bad history with the community despite enjoying the game itself.
 
D
If ESAM wants to try to steal a spot from someone more deserving than him, then so be it. Let him get beaten so badly that he realizes what a joke that was. The Melee community has a right to be irritated at it, but also a right to laugh him to death afterward.

Enough calling the Melee community "ruthless." They're not. It's not the Melee community persay, but select people in it.
Do you realize that what you said in the latter contradicts what you said in the former?

"steal a spot from someone more deserving than him", you realize that is just an opinion and to claim it is theft of any kind sounds really immature? If he won the chance he won the chance, no johns. And who really has the right to be laughing at someone if he loses, much less badly? He's trying to improve his Melee game because Melee, if he loses, so what? Everyone loses at this game or any competitive game.

The Melee community has no right to do either of those things, that "right" is entitlement to further be obnoxious over one person getting a trip to a Melee tournament. Like seriously? That's really just acting like a huge baby who doesn't get what they want. It doesn't matter how you feel about which specific person gets in, if you can't literally tolerate this at a basic level, then it's you that has the problem, not ESAM.

The Sm4sh community, in my humble observations, has been guilty of more of this nonsense than the Melee people. I have seen MANY Sm4sh people bash Melee quite harshly, in an attempt to put down the old game to gain their game popularity. But in reality, it comes down to each individual person. What do YOU contribute? If you're engaging in this conversation too excitedly, you're probably contributing to the bad blood. Enough accusations, enough "call outs." Lead by example, not by small talk on an internet forum, or a stream chat.
No.

No.

Absolutely not.

There is like zero documented proof that Smash 4 players are purposely trying to antagonize Melee players when there is clear evidence from EVO and all of the hate Smash 4 got from Melee players and booing when top players were playing, to all of the in-between and now we are at another stage of this where It's people even trying to participate in Smash 4, and Smash 4 players trying to participate in Melee like ESAM with this poll and trip to the Summit.

There is absolutely 0 history of Smash 4 players doing anything like this to Melee as a scene or as a individual tournament, it's only Melee players that are documented of this. Why? Because it literally is Melee players that are the problem. I'm not talking a simple disagreement or some random troll on the net, this is literally effecting this community and Melee players are going out of their way to show their hate because they do not like the game. They don't know how to handle an opinion that is different than theirs other than to ridicule it as if it were a fact.

That being said, this really has absolutely nothing to do with what's happened. The fact is, ESAM is NOT the best Melee player. And while it might be "cool" to vote in an underdog, there are many, MANY more players that don't have a huge Sm4sh fanbase, that are far more deserving of this spot than he is. He is trying to earn something he doesn't deserve by using silly, childish methods. And it's really no wonder the Melee community has expressed annoyance at it. He's just not good enough to enter such a high caliber tournament. Period.
Doesn't deserve. Who are you to judge that? It's someone who wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve? Seriously where is this entitlement coming from? You can disagree all you want and that's perfectly OK, but this entitlement to bash someone over this? Really guys? It's very childish behavior, like really at the end, it's still gonna be a great tournament and if one person gets over another there will be more tournaments in the future, it's literally not the end of the world or end of smash tournaments and chances.

With a game like Smash where everyone isn't a winner, I think it's rather hilarious that people cannot accept a loss (to them) in this situation.

Sadly, most communities are comprised of mostly immature people, so many of them have not expressed this very effectively. But that is not an excuse to call the Melee community vile. It is, rather, an excuse for the Melee leaders to show the proper way to handle things, and the Sm4sh people to realize ESAM is kind of an idiot. If you truly cared about "respecting each other's games", as so many of you have stated, then you'd realize that ESAM trying to enter this tournament is a joke and it's not really funny to the Melee players.
An idiot for wanting to participate in a tournament for a game loves? and you call him an idiot for that? ESAM has shown he isn't an idiot time and time again with his well thought out videos, so once again sounds like a bunch of whiners who literally are salty because someone from Smash 4 got in over a Melee only player. That's literally all that is going on here and the insults being thrown here with "idiot" and him entering a freakin' tournament is considered a "joke".

Ridiculous.

If he does make it, and he does do well, then you know what? Kudos. Brava. He deserves a spotlight for a time, because he caused huge ripples and contributed something. But the chances of that happening are practically zero, so until he proves that he's up to the task by actually doing something at other, less important tournaments, this is pathetic. A child's attempt at grabbing attention where it does not belong.
You call him a child for wanting to enter a big tournament regardless of his skill level? How else do people get better at Smash? and regardless if you can go to lower tournaments, how does that make him a child? Why are you perceiving him in such a "childish" way?

I literally cannot fathom why this is a deal on such a level to anyone, I can understand being disappointed, but to literally throw insults at someone for wanting to enter a tournament and WINNING a poll? That my friend is childish.
 
I think it's mostly the fact that the Smash 4 community acts as if the Melee community's support and infrastructure should just be there automatically in every regard, and that we should be #ONEUNIT (lmao). All the big tournament series have Smash 4 events so really it's a non issue, and Melee players do not hold a responsibility to Smash 4 at the most grassroots level, because the whole point of that is it just being people getting together for whatever they enjoy. If they don't enjoy Smash 4, then they won't be playing it.

The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!


Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy

The Melee community is full of dip****s it's true, but Melee's strength as a scene is rooted in its merit as a game. The engine for that game is very well crafted and extremely unique. Melee players play Melee because of the game itself, the mechanics, and Brawl/Smash 4 players largely play those games because they are called Smash. People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.

One thing I will heavily criticise Melee players for these days is their chastising of the Smash 4 community for being inherently scrubby. The irony behind that is that Melee community has been a bunch of ****ing scrubs about Hbox's playstyle, wobbling, characters like Sheik etc for YEARS. "That playstyle is gay", "that's not how you're MEANT to play Melee" when a person wins with a conservative playstyle. **** outta here with that ****, Melee community is just as scrubby tbqh.


I sound kinda angry LOL
 
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Fair points from Tafo on his video. Alienating players away from the Melee community just because they also like Smash 4 is actively ruining the community. I play both games and love both, and while I am respected in my own region, online I have called fake for liking both games, or being told that I do not truly caring about one of them, which is silly. People CAN like both games, However I don't take it heart since I know its only a vocal minority, most of the community is super accepting.

As for the Omni video...ok yeah we get your points...but what you said about ESAM was not entirely true. Yes people are hating on him because he plays Smash 4...but really that's not even close to the reason most people don't like him being at Smash Summit...Most of us don't want him in because he objectively a worse player than every other player in the running, who has only been allowed because Druggedfox messed up at BH5 Day 1, thus giving ESAM an easier bracket. He is only doing well because he is taking advantage of having Smash 4 fans vote for him while his competition is splitting most of their votes. Can't blame ESAM for trying to get in, but you can't blame us for not wanting a worse player (Compared to the rest of the possible candidates) at an exclusive event. Many of the people irritated with ESAM now were irritated with Alex19 last time...except Alex19 acheived a lot more, and has done very well at Genesis 3 beating Wizzy and Silentwolf. Esam's biggest Melee accomplishment...is beating Alex19. Oh also ESAM made a super arrogant post on Reddit that made me and many others lose a lot of respect for him.

One last thing I want to add, I feel things are very one sided right now. Yes, SOME of the melee community have done some unjustified things recently, but the Smash 4 community isn't full of angels (as ESAM seems to make it out to be). There is a lot of toxicity in that community as well, and singling out Melee is just wrong. Also the SMash 4 community needs to stop victimizing themselves constantly (another thing ESAM did), its really unnecessary
 
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I Agree with Omni but poeple should never neglect the infinite pain of the melee community to never got their melee-HD expected game.

I think this not really about hating smash4 game or community but is because melee community still feels deep in their heart that they are still fighting to survive. And that , at the first opportunity Nintendo will have to get rid of melee competitive scene he will do!
And this cause a hate towards of smash game especially beacause they have true nintendo's blessing.

This is all Nintendo fault! but it is common amongs Editor, Capcom did the same to Street Fighter 3 third Stryke and is repeating it with SF4.
 
I was just thinking this, I think he's going to get bodied. I've seen a couple of his Melee matches and while he does ok, it's not like it's impressive stuff. And if they're saying he has a good Samus all I can say is pfffffft. No words. I have a friend who's a way better Samus than him.
The most impressive thing about ESAM's play in Melee is that he's one of the only Samus players to use missles extremely effectively.
 
The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!

Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy
At the time, Brawl was all we really had. So when Smash 4 comes out and it's just Better Brawl, naturally we're going to jump ship. Yes, partly because it is a new game, and partly because it improved on the gameplay we already liked. In comparison, Brawl became a much worse game. At least, to us. However, there are some people who do actually prefer Brawl, and who have stuck with that game. Kudos to them. They had the game they loved all along. The Brawl players who switched to Smash 4 were playing Brawl because it was the best at the time to them. Now it isn't. I don't get how that's an issue.
 
At the time, Brawl was all we really had. So when Smash 4 comes out and it's just Better Brawl, naturally we're going to jump ship. Yes, partly because it is a new game, and partly because it improved on the gameplay we already liked. In comparison, Brawl became a much worse game. At least, to us. However, there are some people who do actually prefer Brawl, and who have stuck with that game. Kudos to them. They had the game they loved all along. The Brawl players who switched to Smash 4 were playing Brawl because it was the best at the time to them. Now it isn't. I don't get how that's an issue.
The gameplay issues that plagued Brawl were very apparent back then, and the Brawl community not only knew about them but DEFENDED them. The fact of the matter is that the only reason Brawl players wanted to play Brawl was because of the bigger roster and because it was new, game play be damneed. It's the same with Smash 4. Smash 4 on release was truly horrific with its complete lack of shield stun, but hey ya know doesn't matter I'm just criticising because elitism.

The biggest issue is that I'm sure come Smash 5, Smash 4 fans will **** on their beloved game. Hell, Smash 4 has changed so much since release that liking the game just as much as release would mean you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics, or are being completely dishonest about your opinion on game design.

That's basically the big issue
 
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The gameplay issues that plagued Brawl were very apparent back then, and the Brawl community not only knew about them but DEFENDED them. The fact of the matter is that the only reason Brawl players wanted to play Brawl was because of the bigger roster and because it was new, game play be damneed. It's the same with Smash 4. Smash 4 on release was truly horrific with its complete lack of shield stun, but hey ya know doesn't matter I'm just criticising because elitism.

The biggest issue is that I'm sure some Smash 5, Smash 4 fans will **** on their beloved game. Hell, the Smash 4 has changed so much since release that liking the game just as much as release would mean you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics, or are being completely dishonest about your opinion on game design.

That's basically the big issue
This is why I say the Smash 4 community is the worst community out there. I'm glad someone besides me is talking about this.
 
All this fighting and bickering for him to get in and get absolutely demolished at the summit. Theres nothing fun in seeing someone get BTFO.
 
People need to learn that every Smash game is good in its own right. Heck, I think Brawl is fun if someone isn't playing as Meta Knight.
Anyway, Melee and Smash 4 have their differences. So what if one game is different from another? Just have fun with whatever game you're playing, because something's wrong with you if you get annoyed by people who like to play a different game.
 
D
You know... If Melee players stopped projecting their distaste for Sakurai's decisions since Brawl onto people who love Brawl or Smash 4, and lashing out with hate as seen by EVO, including this poll and all of the other documented cases (in which there are no incidents involving Smash 4 players doing anything like this to the Melee scene), and perhaps maybe realize that people don't have to have their opinion on these games, then maybe people wouldn't be pissed and tired of it.

I straight up don't like Brawl, like I quite frankly, hate the game and you know what? who gives a ****? I'm not gonna take my dislike for that game or Sakurai's decision out on a community that loves the game and it makes them happy to play it, nor the players themselves, it is so childish. And people want to say "blahblahblah we can't even disagree". No, that is not the case at all. If you guys were simply just disagreeing, then none of this would have transpired and it'd be actual respect involved.

No respect has been involved between this in real life scenarios like the EVO bash when top players were competing and now this. You can attempt to say it was cause Melee and Smash 4 is on the same stream and SO? How does that give someone the entitlement to bash the other game on such a tremendous level and to even do it in person at EVO? A lot of people want their game to be streamed, but no community in the FGC outside of Melee is doing this when a certain game is gone. It's poor sportsmanship and immature.
 
Do you realize that what you said in the latter contradicts what you said in the former?

"steal a spot from someone more deserving than him", you realize that is just an opinion and to claim it is theft of any kind sounds really immature? If he won the chance he won the chance, no johns.

Doesn't deserve. Who are you to judge that? It's someone who wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve? Seriously where is this entitlement coming from?
Aye, you raise some valid points. Granted, I wrote this after 14 hours of school so I must admit I wasn't as diplomatic as I typically am. I apologize. All this about "entitlement" is a thing, you are correct. But you misunderstand. ESAM is NOT good enough. I don't really care if you think he is, but he isn't. It's not an opinion, it is, based on his past performance, a cold, hard fact. He's good, but he isn't THAT good. Not yet. He has very, very rarely, placed barely top 32. If he "wants to go, is a high level smasher and wants to improve", as you say, then he can do that elsewhere. This isn't a typical tournament; invitationals are very different. A sense of entitlement is what YOU have described. He does not have the ranking to back up his desire to enter the tournament. I can wish to enter all I want, but I'm just not ranked high enough to enter. Yes, there is nothing against him attempting to make it into the tournament, you are correct. He can attempt to enter. I could too. But that doesn't change that I am doing the community a disservice by being there. Fan voting does not equal earning something. The fact is, his PAST RESULTS, things you cannot change, identify him as a player who hasn't achieved enough to compete at a tournament like this. And most of the Melee community isn't going to vote for him. IF he makes it, it will be because he has a fan base in both games. Melee fans aren't happy that someone is using his large fan base to enter a tournament he hasn't otherwise proven he is a strong enough player to enter into.
This has nothing to do with him being a "Sm4sh player-gone-Melee" or whatever you want to call it. It's the abuse of fanbase. I understand if Sm4sh players want him there, but they should not be the ruling voice in a game that isn't theirs. Though, I suppose, if Melee wants to become a spectator sport, that really shouldn't matter either.

Also, you should be aware that all of your responses to my post were backed by nothing substantial. Saying "ridiculous" isn't really accomplishing anything. "Zero said this" is garbage. In MY own experience, traveling and currently living in a heavily favored Sm4sh community, I have seen much more hate from Sm4sh than Melee. Not in public forums, but in person. It's disgusting and it's unhealthy. Perhaps YOU have seen something else in your own experience, living in your own community where things are undoubtedly different than for me. Things are not always the way you think they are just because the public forums are filled with children. I do not accuse the Sm4sh community of anything, nor do I accuse Melee of anything. I merely state that rather than making blanket sweep statements like "Melee community is toxic", perhaps a more analytical answer made by people who actually pay attention would be better. No "playing the victim", that act has gotten stale. That only feeds the fire of those who want to create drama.

This all being said, I personally have mixed feelings. I like Samus in Melee, if played correctly. I also like underdogs. I am tired of the gods winning everything. But I'm not sure I can vote for ESAM knowing the likely outcome is destruction. Could be good for entertainment purposes though.
 
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One last thing I want to add, I feel things are very one sided right now. Yes, SOME of the melee community have done some unjustified things recently, but the Smash 4 community isn't full of angels (as ESAM seems to make it out to be). There is a lot of toxicity in that community as well, and singling out Melee is just wrong. Also the SMash 4 community needs to stop victimizing themselves constantly (another thing ESAM did), its really unnecessary
The Smash 4 scene does have toxicity, though almost all of it is directed inward rather than towards other games. There's actually very little hostility towards other Smash games within the Smash 4 community, and that which does flare up usually does in response to some Melee player badmouthing the game. It's almost always the Melee people who are keeping these sorts of flame wars going. The Smash 4 community has a lot to criticize, but internecine warfare with other Smash communities is pretty far down the list, and is barely an issue. Our toxicity stems mostly from DLC bandwagoning, DLC whining, patch whining, general meta whining, and even occasionally some ruleset whining. Smash 4 people from my experience are either neutral towards or pro-Melee, at most only criticizing the community, and even that's usually in pretty mild terms. The "Melee autist" people are almost exclusively casuals, and while plenty of the Melee keyboard warriors aren't really good at Melee, a lot more of that kind of attitude is present in the Melee tourney scene than is present for Smash 4. (I will say that most of the Melee people I've encountered have been generally courteous and decent people though)
 
I seriously don't understand how people can fight and argue so much about 2 DIFFERENT Smash games. I personally like Smash 4 more, but I still think Melee is fantastic. I like Samsung a lot more than iPhone, but I don't go around and sh*t on Apple users. I like DOTA a lot more than LoL, but I don't go around and bash people who think the opposite.

Not sure why respect and having an open mind is so hard to learn.




(Btw, that edited picture of Melee's crew facing against some of Smash 4's crew looks pretty darn awesome)
You like Smash 4 than Melee but DOTA 2 more than LoL? Weird. Generally, I would think that people who like 4 are more likely to like LoL, and people who like Meleemore likeley to like Dota, because 4 is more similar/analogous to LoL and Melee is analogous to Dota; 4 and LoL are the casual and easier games, while Melee and Dota are the more hardcore, complicated games.
 
This argument was ongoing before Smash Summit 2, but it's been made a hot topic because of ESAM's votes. I just have 2 things to say:
1: They are both great games! If you don't like one, it takes more effort to criticize and hate rather then to keep quiet. It's easier if you just don't say anything and keep out of it.

2: Why are people complaining that ESAM is leading in the Smash Summit 2 voting? The MAJORITY of people are voting for him, that's why he's winning! This group of people complaining is a small minority, and I think they should be ignored. There's a reason that Smash Summit lets people vote, and that's so we can see the people we want there, and the most people want ESAM. It's as simple as that. This small minority saying that ESAM doesn't deserve the spot are wrong, and honestly, who cares? Just ignore them.
 
I want to go back on my statement how its not fun to see people get BTFO.
For the most part is true, but there are legendary exemptions (MyB)
 
This argument was ongoing before Smash Summit 2, but it's been made a hot topic because of ESAM's votes. I just have 2 things to say:
1: They are both great games! If you don't like one, it takes more effort to criticize and hate rather then to keep quiet. It's easier if you just don't say anything and keep out of it.

2: Why are people complaining that ESAM is leading in the Smash Summit 2 voting? The MAJORITY of people are voting for him, that's why he's winning! This group of people complaining is a small minority, and I think they should be ignored. There's a reason that Smash Summit lets people vote, and that's so we can see the people we want there, and the most people want ESAM. It's as simple as that. This small minority saying that ESAM doesn't deserve the spot are wrong, and honestly, who cares? Just ignore them.
The people voting for ESAM are not a majority. They are a unified minority. If everyone in Melee decided to get behind 1 particular player instead of splitting their votes, ESAM's votes wouldn't even come close. This is the problem with a system like this, and it's being exploited. You could pair almost any top 30 player against ESAM in a 1 vs 1 vote, and ESAM would likely lose. But when there's a dozen people to vote for, it becomes a different story.

Also, these people voting for ESAM are not as likely to watch the event given that most of them are Sm4sh players and the Summit is a Melee event. They are neither invested in the Melee community or the event. I know this statement will be taken the wrong way by someone, but I think it's wrong for the Sm4sh community to have such a strong voice in something that really doesn't involve or affect the vast majority of them. I'm not trying to say that their opinions aren't important. It's just that most are likely to be less informed and invested in who wins because it doesn't really affect them. It's similar to letting another country elect the President of the US, except that the PotUS actually does have an affect on other countries, whereas who gets in to the Summit it pretty irrelevant to most of the Sm4sh community.
 
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Theres no majority voting for Esam. Pretty much all of his votes are coming from Smash 4 players. So no, the melee community is not voting for ESAM to get in.
Can they do that? Of course.
No idea why they would outside of getting the perks Esam is giving or straight out just in spite towards the melee community.
 
I think it's mostly the fact that the Smash 4 community acts as if the Melee community's support and infrastructure should just be there automatically in every regard, and that we should be #ONEUNIT (lmao). All the big tournament series have Smash 4 events so really it's a non issue, and Melee players do not hold a responsibility to Smash 4 at the most grassroots level, because the whole point of that is it just being people getting together for whatever they enjoy. If they don't enjoy Smash 4, then they won't be playing it.

The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!


Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy

The Melee community is full of dip****s it's true, but Melee's strength as a scene is rooted in its merit as a game. The engine for that game is very well crafted and extremely unique. Melee players play Melee because of the game itself, the mechanics, and Brawl/Smash 4 players largely play those games because they are called Smash. People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.

One thing I will heavily criticise Melee players for these days is their chastising of the Smash 4 community for being inherently scrubby. The irony behind that is that Melee community has been a bunch of ****ing scrubs about Hbox's playstyle, wobbling, characters like Sheik etc for YEARS. "That playstyle is gay", "that's not how you're MEANT to play Melee" when a person wins with a conservative playstyle. **** outta here with that ****, Melee community is just as scrubby tbqh.


I sound kinda angry LOL
This. All of this. When and if the next Smash game comes out, Smash 4 will be just as dead as Brawl is now. Melee has survived because it actually works as a competitive game. With a skill ceiling as low as Smash 4's it'll end up the same way in just a few years. That's why I find it sad when people join that community instead of Melee, because Melee actually has the potential to survive, it has an infinitely high skill ceiling that nobody will EVER reach. If we don't care about depth of gameplay and we'd rather just play the shiny new one, then when they stop making shiny new ones there won't BE a Smash community anymore. And I don't wanna think about that day. /:
 
This argument was ongoing before Smash Summit 2, but it's been made a hot topic because of ESAM's votes. I just have 2 things to say:
1: They are both great games! If you don't like one, it takes more effort to criticize and hate rather then to keep quiet. It's easier if you just don't say anything and keep out of it.

2: Why are people complaining that ESAM is leading in the Smash Summit 2 voting? The MAJORITY of people are voting for him, that's why he's winning! This group of people complaining is a small minority, and I think they should be ignored. There's a reason that Smash Summit lets people vote, and that's so we can see the people we want there, and the most people want ESAM. It's as simple as that. This small minority saying that ESAM doesn't deserve the spot are wrong, and honestly, who cares? Just ignore them.
The people voting for ESAM are in no way the "majority" of the Melee community. It's literally just the Smash 4 community trolling us. Lol.
 
This. All of this. When and if the next Smash game comes out, Smash 4 will be just as dead as Brawl is now. Melee has survived because it actually works as a competitive game. With a skill ceiling as low as Smash 4's it'll end up the same way in just a few years. That's why I find it sad when people join that community instead of Melee, because Melee actually has the potential to survive, it has an infinitely high skill ceiling that nobody will EVER reach. If we don't care about depth of gameplay and we'd rather just play the shiny new one, then when they stop making shiny new ones there won't BE a Smash community anymore. And I don't wanna think about that day. /:
That day won't come, because there's something called the Melee community.
 
When and if the next Smash game comes out, Smash 4 will be just as dead as Brawl is now. Melee has survived because it actually works as a competitive game.
All Smash games work as competitive games, some more than others. The reason that Melee has stuck around for as long as it has is because there's no other Smash game like it. Smash 4 is pretty much a "better Brawl," and I have little doubt that Smash 5 will be something similar. This is why it was replaced; it does the same thing, but better. Melee, on the other hand, was sort of a one-off thing; that is, Brawl went in a very different direction, and even Smash 4 doesn't fill that same role. Thus, if you want Melee style gameplay, you have to play Melee, so people do play Melee. Brawl and Smash 4 are significantly more similar than Melee and Brawl, so that's why Brawl's fanbase migrated over to the Wii U entry.

P:M is not a replacement for Melee...
It's the closest thing that can be reasonably expected: Melee style gameplay, advanced techniques like wavedashing, a focus on bringing back content from Melee such as top-tier fighters, stages, cut characters, alts based on Melee models, et cetera; plus new changes and improvements such as better visuals, an expanded roster, added features, improved balance. While it may not be the same as Melee (I haven't played nearly enough of either to say), the way I see it, it's the best successor to Melee they could've really expected, especially from Nintendo / Sakurai.

But then again I've never played Melee and have little experience with P:M, so I could very well be wrong about this kinda stuff. :dizzy: Just an outsider looking in here.
 
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The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!
Really the difference between Melee and Brawl/Smash 4 in terms of motives as to why one would play each has a lot to do with the fact that Melee is an engine-driven game while Brawl/Smash 4 are character-driven. Melee and Smash 64 have far smaller and less varied rosters than Brawl and Smash 4, and Melee's meta is extremely centralized around a still smaller character pool. You play Melee for crazy engine exploits moreso than for your favorite character, while Brawl/Smash 4 have far larger and more differentiated character rosters.
Brawl died out in large part because it's poor balance killed off interest for people who liked [insert low/mid tier] but couldn't perform with them in tourney at all.

Smash 4 has a still larger and more diverse and interesting cast (not to mention a generally solid if unspectacular game engine), but it's final balance state is currently unclear, but were Bayo/Cloud/whoever in fact actually centralizing enough to dominate the meta long term and squeeze out most low/mid tiers at even the local/regional level(I doubt this'll be anywhere close to Brawl bad, though of course low tier viability will always shrink as the meta develops) then Smash 4 would likely die out as well due to most players not being able to win at all with their favorites. (I'd personally probably consider jumping ship were Ganon Brawl tier useless, though PM is a turnoff because Ganon feels way too weird in that game to me. MeleeDorf I actually like better, but nowhere near as much as Brawl/Smash 4 Dorf)
 
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People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.
I was about to call bulls**t on this, but then I remembered I have a few Sm4sh friends who are exactly this. They too were Brawl players and sang its praises over Melee before Sm4sh came out but then turned around and acted like it was total junk when Sm4sh finally released.
 
I think it's mostly the fact that the Smash 4 community acts as if the Melee community's support and infrastructure should just be there automatically in every regard, and that we should be #ONEUNIT (lmao). All the big tournament series have Smash 4 events so really it's a non issue, and Melee players do not hold a responsibility to Smash 4 at the most grassroots level, because the whole point of that is it just being people getting together for whatever they enjoy. If they don't enjoy Smash 4, then they won't be playing it.

The biggest issue with the Smash 4 community, imo, is that they are extremely disingenuous about why they play the game. I feel they play it because it's the newest, shiniest, and most packed edition of Smash. That's fine, but you know what I find really ironic? They constantly **** on Brawl, which essentially had the same community as Smash 4 does now. Remember when Melee players criticised Brawl and the Brawl players defended their game relentlessly? Oh well never mind that, was all garbage after all LOL so glad Smash 4 is out!


Then Smash 4 came out with very glaring issues (no shield stun being the biggest one), and everyone's like OH WELL YOU KNOW THE GAME IS GREAT CUZ MUH BALANCE #BanDiddy

The Melee community is full of dip****s it's true, but Melee's strength as a scene is rooted in its merit as a game. The engine for that game is very well crafted and extremely unique. Melee players play Melee because of the game itself, the mechanics, and Brawl/Smash 4 players largely play those games because they are called Smash. People will jump in to disagree with me on that part, with the whole "oh no I REALLY prefer the gameplay of Smash 4 it's so great", but these were the same people who said Brawl was so great then turned around to take a mountain sized dump on it when Smash 4 came out.

One thing I will heavily criticise Melee players for these days is their chastising of the Smash 4 community for being inherently scrubby. The irony behind that is that Melee community has been a bunch of ****ing scrubs about Hbox's playstyle, wobbling, characters like Sheik etc for YEARS. "That playstyle is gay", "that's not how you're MEANT to play Melee" when a person wins with a conservative playstyle. **** outta here with that ****, Melee community is just as scrubby tbqh.


I sound kinda angry LOL
From the constant scrub crying over Bayonetta, Corrin and Cloud shows this.

It's like EVERYTHING should be nerfed. It's why characters get butchered to hell and back because of constant babies crying that Falcon, Fox, Marth and others can't beat these options. It's why Greninja, Mac, Bowser, Meta Knight, Diddy (post Hoo Haa) and Luigi get harshly nerfed because this community doesn't know the term ADAPT

There's one thing with Diddy but Bayo is straight up overblown as hell.
 
I was about to call bulls**t on this, but then I remembered I have a few Sm4sh friends who are exactly this. They too were Brawl players and sang its praises over Melee before Sm4sh came out but then turned around and acted like it was total junk when Sm4sh finally released.
If I had to guess, they probably just preferred Brawl over Melee (whether it be for the bigger roster, the easier-to-follow gameplay, or whatever), and then when Smash 4 came along and improved on many of Brawl's flaws, they became all the more apparent with Smash 4 as a foil. But of course, not knowing the people or having any of their exact statements to refer to means that I could very well be wrong here, just taking a guess here.
 
All Smash games work as competitive games, some more than others. The reason that Melee has stuck around for as long as it has is because there's no other Smash game like it. Smash 4 is pretty much a "better Brawl," and I have little doubt that Smash 5 will be something similar. This is why it was replaced; it does the same thing, but better. Melee, on the other hand, was sort of a one-off thing; that is, Brawl went in a very different direction, and even Smash 4 doesn't fill that same role. Thus, if you want Melee style gameplay, you have to play Melee, so people do play Melee. Brawl and Smash 4 are significantly more similar than Melee and Brawl, so that's why Brawl's fanbase migrated over to the Wii U entry.


It's the closest thing that can be reasonably expected: Melee style gameplay, advanced techniques like wavedashing, a focus on bringing back content from Melee such as top-tier fighters, stages, cut characters, alts based on Melee models, et cetera; plus new changes and improvements such as better visuals, an expanded roster, added features, improved balance. While it may not be the same as Melee (I haven't played nearly enough of either to say), the way I see it, it's the best successor to Melee they could've really expected, especially from Nintendo / Sakurai.

But then again I've never played Melee and have little experience with P:M, so I could very well be wrong about this kinda stuff. :dizzy: Just an outsider looking in here.
PM is more balanced, better graphics, etc. and it is more similar to Melee than 4 and Brawl, but I'd argue it's still slower than Melee. Also, PM has been dealt a blow by the fact that it exists in a legal gray area.
 
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