• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

Bigbomb2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
164
Location
PA
NNID
Bigbomb2
:4yoshi: + He just doesn't seem to fit there. He can tango with a lot of the characters above him
:4gaw: - Dangerous in the right hands like 95% of the cast but I feel he has some issues holding him back
:4dk: - I dunno, feels a tad high to me. You still can't ever sleep on the dong though
:4olimar: + Always seemed like he had the tools to succeed. And didn't an Olimar make it to GF at some big tourney recently?
:4link: + I have no idea who else to vote for so I'll just throw in a counter-vote for my boi. Technical Links are fun to watch/play against, and always have some neato tricks
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3

Enjoy! This was just last weekend here in Florida~
See, the problem with this is at no point during the matches did I see Xaltis do something to force Lucas to use his PK Thunder. There were times when she could have easily ran off stage and took his PK Thunder but for some reason stayed on stage and threw out a hitbox. The times when she did go off stage, she was too aggressive, throwing out a hitbox as soon as possible. I find edgeguarding Lucas and Ness with Rosalina to be a similar thing as how M2K explained how to edgeguard Cloud; if you just go out there and threaten Lucas with your presence, you should get one of two options. 1) - they air dodge, which you can punish afterward, as Rosalina is floaty enough to use a move and recover. Or 2) - get out there near the ledge and wait to see their option. 9 times out of 10, the Lucas or Ness won't want to use PK Thunder anyway in this matchup, but if you go to meet them, you have more than enough time to head below them to evade an attack, then double jump and punish. Go read M2K's How to Edgeguard Cloud for a better analysis.

Another thing I didn't see Xaltis do was Dtilt for a ledge snap. Lucas puts his head above the ledge making it very easy to 2 frame his ledge snap with Dtilt. Hitting this is a fantastic way at forcing PK Thunder.

I will just say that just beacuse this is one time where Lucas beat a Rosalina,it doesn't make the matchup any easier. Lucas and Ness still lose badly to Rosalina, however you look at it. However, with Lucas having a Zair, I do think Lucas has a slightly better time.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Marth +1
Samus +1
Roy +1
Mii Gunner -1
Mii Swordsmen -1
You do know Miis are all specials allowed, right?

See, the problem with this is at no point during the matches did I see Xaltis do something to force Lucas to use his PK Thunder. There were times when she could have easily ran off stage and took his PK Thunder but for some reason stayed on stage and threw out a hitbox. The times when she did go off stage, she was too aggressive, throwing out a hitbox as soon as possible. I find edgeguarding Lucas and Ness with Rosalina to be a similar thing as how M2K explained how to edgeguard Cloud; if you just go out there and threaten Lucas with your presence, you should get one of two options. 1) - they air dodge, which you can punish afterward, as Rosalina is floaty enough to use a move and recover. Or 2) - get out there near the ledge and wait to see their option. 9 times out of 10, the Lucas or Ness won't want to use PK Thunder anyway in this matchup, but if you go to meet them, you have more than enough time to head below them to evade an attack, then double jump and punish. Go read M2K's How to Edgeguard Cloud for a better analysis.

Another thing I didn't see Xaltis do was Dtilt for a ledge snap. Lucas puts his head above the ledge making it very easy to 2 frame his ledge snap with Dtilt. Hitting this is a fantastic way at forcing PK Thunder.

I will just say that just beacuse this is one time where Lucas beat a Rosalina,it doesn't make the matchup any easier. Lucas and Ness still lose badly to Rosalina, however you look at it. However, with Lucas having a Zair, I do think Lucas has a slightly better time.
Lucas also has better air speed than Ness and a better projectile for dealing with Rosalina, which helps.

But we'll agree to disagree. Those were good points.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jespoke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
239
Location
Denmark
NNID
Jespoke
The reason Son's win became such a talking point is that together with Taiheita beating his regions Rosa at every encounter this gives Lucas an amazing record against Rosa at high level, across 2 different players.

And a Lucas in top 8 elsewhere fueled the discussion further.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
You guys forgot to mention Taiheita.......

He's beaten Atelier, the 2nd best Rosa in Japan, 3 times already.

I can't link the footage, on mobile.

:150:
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
To all you people saying results don't matter and all that stuff, put Yoshi in tier 2 and puff at like 10th in Melee
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member

Guest
To all you people saying results don't matter and all that stuff, put Yoshi in tier 2 and puff at like 10th in Melee
That's a poor analogy considering both characters you mentioned still get consistently good results thanks to their players.
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
That's a poor analogy considering both characters you mentioned still get consistently good results thanks to their players.
That is what I meant. It was meant to say that if you don't use results, then those characters would be higher/lower




But like, results play a part. If it was theory, we would see a different tier list. We just need to find a way for it to be equal
 
Last edited:

SpaceCanary

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
31
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
SpaceCanary
+1 :4link: Whoa, watch it with the Link downvotes. Here's why he deserves to be where he is:

First, Link has an insane projectile game. His variety easily rivals "gunner" characters like Samus and Megaman, allowing for mixups and versatility. His Gale Boomerangs are good at harassing reflector users because reflected boomerangs are stripped of the outward hitbox, leaving them with only the returning windbox, so Link won't take any damage. Bombs are good at zoning and creating delayed explosions to disrupt approaches, and they can keep opponents in shield, leading to grab setups. In addition, his Hylian Shield blocks enemy projectiles, so Link can fire projectiles without being countercamped easily.

The knockback on Link's moves is also crazy - in fact, he can launch the Target Blast bomb by just using his jab repeatedly. He's very powerful up close unlike other projectile-based characters and can launch opponents into zoning range or get them offstage easily. The knockback is especially deadly on his smashes and Spin Attack, which are reliable KO options and are multi-hit attacks that can punish rolls, bad shielding, or poor approaches (especially from the ledge).

One of Link's greatest strengths imo, though, is his edgeguarding potential. All his projectiles can serve as options to knock opponents away from the edge. Boomerangs deal solid hits that are good at interrupting horizontal recovery moves such as Pikachu's Skull Bash, arrows can fire down off of the edge towards the bottom corners of the screen, and bombs can be thrown upwards to crash down on top of opponents that are trying to sweetspot the ledge from below. This is especially effective in conjunction with his dair, which can meteor at the start and lasts a long time so as to get in the way of recoveries by moving sideways with it out (I often call this "panning"). Down tilt is also a meteor smash, making it a ledgeguarding option.

His air game isn't bad either, with nair, fair, and/or bair for up-close spacing. Uair is good for intercepting falling characters and its long-lasting hitbox allows it to punish air dodges. Dair can cover his landing and break combos (along with nair being a good combo breaker.) Finally, his zair is a great poking/spacing option with its long reach. Add its lack of any landing lag and Link's extra-fast fast-fall speed, and SHFFing zairs can become a deadly option to interrupt another character. It should also be mentioned that his down throw leads into aerials rather easily, as well as u-tilt and u-smash.

Common weaknesses that I've heard people say Link has are his recovery and susceptibility to combos. His recovery is by no means terrible. He has both Spin Attack and his tether grab as options for unpredictability, and he can extend his air time by using bombs to remove the helplessness from Spin Attack (although he will take damage). At any rate, it's better than some top-tier characters such as Cloud. As I mentioned earlier, his nair and dair can break combos, and his fast-fall (which accelerates him to 90% falling speed instead of the usual 50%) can also cause some combos to miss.

Overall, I think he should get more play than he does.

-1:4sonic:
-1 :4mario: Top tier is becoming meaningless with all these characters in it.

I'm saving my last vote, and I may change them depending on what happens.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member

Guest
-1 :4cloud: I somehow don't feel Cloud. He has a lot of the same kill setups as Link imo but has terrible recovery and iffy range. So long as you shield his Limit Breaks, you're usually in a pretty good spot.
>cloud
>iffy range

I am so done with this goddamn thread
 

DMWN

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
138
Location
Onett, the wildflower of Eagleland.
NNID
poe376
All right. I'm going to present evidence for Lucas's case in argumentative format for the sake of ease, so if I start to sound pissy, I encourage you not to take offense to it ( Xandercosm Xandercosm ).

The thing about Lucas is that he's very much overshadowed by Ness. Many pretend he's just a less-capable Ness (which, to an extent, is true), when he has all of the tools at his disposal. I'm going to run through all of them for you. Note that some of what I'll note was already covered by @Feelicks, but I'll reference it here just for the sake of keeping things together.

Let's start with his standard attacks. His jab is very, very quick--tied for fastest in the game, coming out on Frame 2. It even hits behind Lucas, which is an incredible boxing option. His forward tilt is similar, only its damage output and spacing ability is better (when sweetspot), though it first activates on frame 7. Its sourspot can lock opponents who miss their tech or fall victim to one of his infamous footstool combos. His down tilt is also tied for quickest in the game, coming out on frame 3. It can combo into itself, a forward tilt, an up tilt, a grab, or (in some cases) an aerial. It can also lock opponents if they're hit with its tip, which is helpful when you land too far away from your opponent during a 0-death. His sourspotted dash attack can combo into an up tilt at low percents and an up air at mid-percents, and its sweetspot sends opponents at a safe distance while inflicting a nice 11 damage. It works as a wonderful kill option despite its slow startup, as it has low endlag.

His specials are a slightly different story, but still a good one at that. His ability to wavebounce using special stick-PK Fire allows him to zone out opponents to the point of frustration. Even without B-stick, Lucas is still granted the gift of great mobility with this projectile's recoil if he chooses to retreat using it (though, electing not to use B-stick does put him at a disadvantage). PK Freeze is a situational ledgeguard--a good one, at that. It has a relatively small amount of ending lag for its size and mobility. This plays contrast to PK Thunder, which is a very bad option for ledgeguarding and attacking in general due to its moderately high amounts of endlag. PSI Magnet is a great tool for stalling offstage, producing an emergency hitbox, and, well, healing Lucas. Sometimes it can work as an approach option, and it works rather well should the opponent be caught off-guard. All of this combined with his ability to reverse his direction with it mid-air only means it's his best tool when offstage.

Lucas's aerials are iffy to an extent, but still strong overall. His neutral air would be incredible if only its SDI multiplier weren't twice as high as it was in Brawl, but it begins to link better as the opponent reaches mid-percents. Even so, Lucas can follow his opponent's DI at lower percents to begin with, so it's not too big of a detriment. Should every hit of nair link properly, it can be followed up with a forward air, up air, down air, footstool, or another nair. The real kicker here is Lucas's ability to fast-fall his neutral air to bring opponents to the ground and use its low landing lag to follow up with moves like up tilt, forward tilt, down tilt, jab, or grab. His up air hitbox is puny, but with such small amounts of endlag and landing lag, it's pretty safe to throw out for its good 13 damage. Since up tilt, down throw and dash attack combo into it, it has solid uses besides a safe gamble. His back air is a nice approach option and kill move, given that its spike hitbox isn't too hard to get opponents with on the ledge or offstage if you can corner them offstage. It reaches just below the ledge if you're facing away from it, meaning Lucas will be getting lots of two-frame spikes on the ledge. It, like all of Lucas's aerials, has little enough landing lag to be safe to throw out onstage. Its non-spike sweetspot--yes, it has two--kills around the 120% range near the ledge, which is actually pretty late. His down air is very finnicky, but it's viable as a situational approach. Its hitboxes don't link well, but this move shines in two regards: its ability to lock opponents and its gimping ability, the latter of which works well when Lucas hovers just off the ledge while his opponent attempts to recover. It begins to KO opponents starting at around 80%, but most will either be caught off guard or sent too far down to even consider a recovery attempt--lest, of course, the opponent is using a character with a lengthy recovery. However, most of such characters have slow, gimpable recoveries anyway. Lucas's forward air is a wonderful poking tool which also has multiple uses. As a kill move, it's decent at best. However, this move can also lock with its sourspot, combo its sweetspot into itself up to four times in midair at mid percents (you just took 45%), and poke at opponents' shields effectively. His grab air is possibly the most versatile zair in the game as well as Lucas's best tool overall given that it has only 8 frames of landing lag with its incredible reach. Out of a shorthop, it can lead into a forward tilt, down tilt, forward smash, or even a grab. Though it only does 4% max, it adds up when you're walling your opponent out in conjunction with PK Fire. It keeps opponents away and halts

Lucas's smash attacks are relatively slow, but they still have their individual uses. Up smash is a fairly bad move due to its high startup and ending lag. It doesn't see much use unless the player reads their opponent or gets a shield break, but the move pays off greatly in both situations with its above average damage output and absurd knockback growth, as well as invincibility on Lucas's head from frames 15-30 (I believe it's for that long, anyway). His down smash actually has very similar knockback growth values compared to his up smash, its ending lag is significantly shorter, and the attack activates 39 frames earlier. The attack hits thrice and gets bigger with each hitbox (though with progressively less knockback per hit). This is a very questionable move to use onstage as shielding only the first hit of the move will mark the shielder invincible to the latter two, leaving Lucas open to punishes. Where this move shines is on the ledge, due to its already-astounding knockback, large hitbox sizes, and its ability to be spammed combined with its practically-nonexistent punishability on the ledge. If used properly, Lucas can always be safe to throw out this move as a ledgeguard. Lucas's best smash attack is his forward smash, which is not only quicker to start up than Ness's, but is also higher in knockback values than his, killing tens of percents earlier. Lucas has setups into the move as well, the most common of which being zair and down tilt. This move also acts as a means of reflecting opponents' projectiles back at them for 1.5x the damage, which is actually more than Fox's reflector would do. For reference, Ness's frame 21 fsmash reflects for 2.0x the damage, Lucas's frame 14 fsmash reflects for 1.5x the damage, and Fox's frame 6 Reflector reflects for 1.5x the damage. Lucas's reflection ability is middle-of-the-road, but for how safe his fsmash is, it can only be called a viable, versatile move.

Lucas benefits greatly from grabs. Lucas's standing, pivot, and dash grabs are all relatively laggy, as they come out on frames 12, 12, and 14, respectively. They all have moderate amounts of endlag as well (46, 56 and 56, respectively). However, this still leaves Lucas's tether grab as the quickest in the game, which is understandable for its short reach compared to other tether grabs. Even with such boisterous amounts of lag, Lucas won't be suffering from it if he sets up his grabs using zair. After he nets a grab, he can down throw and follow up with any of his aerials--yes, any of them. All of them come out quick enough. Neutral air is the most common and optimal follow up (unless the player is not confident in their ability to follow SDI...or footstool), but forward air is sometimes seen for quick damage--down air is seen as well, but mostly for combo purposes. Back air out of down throw is a common kill setup at higher percents, but the most common of all is his "Mama's Boy" combo: down throw to up air. It begins killing most opponents around 100%, but it can fall apart if Lucas has a lot of rage. If that's the case, the stock can be closed with an up throw (~120%), back throw (~95% near the ledge) or forward throw (~105% near the ledge), all of which have high knockback growth most noticeable within the 130%< range, as the latter two begin KOing from the middle of the stage. In short, all of his throws will be able to kill at some reasonable point, making all of them useful.

Allow me to list some attributes pertaining to Lucas. His air speed is above average (tied for 14th if memory serves correctly), making his aforementioned aerial follow-ups all the more reliable. He has an average weight value at 94 units, is relatively short, and has a passable ground speed. His ability to return to the stage is, in my opinion, unmatched by any other character in the game in terms of distance and variability. Lucas can go under most stages if the player is crazy enough to attempt it, but even without doing so, he has the ability to halt his midair momentum and bait gimps with PSI Magnet, gain distance (whether it be from the blast zone or his opponent) with PK Fire, snap back to the ledge with his tether recovery, or go plain and simple with his PK Thunder 2--which travels twice the length of Ness's. Lucas can fake out a tether recovery by tapping down just before the Rope Snake grabs onto the ledge, giving him a safe mix-up option to recover using PK Thunder 2.

Lucas's 0-death is not as difficult as one may believe. His footstool combos can very easily turn the tides of a match, though it seems it's best fitted to Final Destination. If Lucas counterpicks Final Destination, his opponent may be in for a rough time.

Lucas is clearly a very capable character to the player who desires to learn the full extent of all of his tools--he belongs in Tier 3 for sure. I understand it's not exactly the most comparative essay, but I'll be sure to amend it at a time during which I do not have a headache.

I should've called upon my dude Strawbaby Strawbaby --he knows infinitely more about this character than I do. At least he can help back up/clarify this information.
 
Last edited:

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
+1 :4link: Whoa, watch it with the Link downvotes. Here's why he deserves to be where he is:

First, Link has an insane projectile game. His variety easily rivals "gunner" characters like Samus and Megaman, allowing for mixups and versatility. His Gale Boomerangs are good at harassing reflector users because reflected boomerangs are stripped of the outward hitbox, leaving them with only the returning windbox, so Link won't take any damage. Bombs are good at zoning and creating delayed explosions to disrupt approaches, and they can keep opponents in shield, leading to grab setups. In addition, his Hylian Shield blocks enemy projectiles, so Link can fire projectiles without being countercamped easily. Tink does this far better

The knockback on Link's moves is also crazy - in fact, he can launch the Target Blast bomb by just using his jab repeatedly. He's very powerful up close unlike other projectile-based characters and can launch opponents into zoning range or get them offstage easily. The knockback is especially deadly on his smashes and Spin Attack, which are reliable KO options and are multi-hit attacks that can punish rolls, bad shielding, or poor approaches (especially from the ledge). This is something he does have an edge over, so I DO have to go him that, but Tink also has kill throw and a ton of kill set ups.

One of Link's greatest strengths imo, though, is his edgeguarding potential. All his projectiles can serve as options to knock opponents away from the edge. Boomerangs deal solid hits that are good at interrupting horizontal recovery moves such as Pikachu's Skull Bash, arrows can fire down off of the edge towards the bottom corners of the screen, and bombs can be thrown upwards to crash down on top of opponents that are trying to sweetspot the ledge from below. This is especially effective in conjunction with his dair, which can meteor at the start and lasts a long time so as to get in the way of recoveries by moving sideways with it out (I often call this "panning"). Down tilt is also a meteor smash, making it a ledgeguarding option. I am like 99% sure Link has god awful air mobility which is really not the best for edge guarding when compared to chars like :4megaman::4marth::4peach::4tlink::4sonic::rosalina::4wiifit:and more characters that are even worse than him, some even in the tier he is in now. Also, his way to get back on the stage when he goes deep, not saying he does have to due to bomb and all that stuff, but it is hard to get back. That being said he does have a good edge guarding game, but when compared to others its just yeah.

His air game isn't bad either, with nair, fair, and/or bair for up-close spacing. Uair is good for intercepting falling characters and its long-lasting hitbox allows it to punish air dodges. Dair can cover his landing and break combos (along with nair being a good combo breaker.) Finally, his zair is a great poking/spacing option with its long reach. Add its lack of any landing lag and Link's extra-fast fast-fall speed, and SHFFing zairs can become a deadly option to interrupt another character. It should also be mentioned that his down throw leads into aerials rather easily, as well as u-tilt and u-smash. Again, lack of mobility as mentioned above, but he does have those projectiles which help and other moves mentioned here. Also outclassed by others, but no char is perfect.

Common weaknesses that I've heard people say Link has are his recovery and susceptibility to combos. His recovery is by no means terrible. He has both Spin Attack and his tether grab as options for unpredictability, and he can extend his air time by using bombs to remove the helplessness from Spin Attack (although he will take damage). At any rate, it's better than some top-tier characters such as Cloud. As I mentioned earlier, his nair and dair can break combos, and his fast-fall (which accelerates him to 90% falling speed instead of the usual 50%) can also cause some combos to miss.
His recovery is bad and predictable. I don't play too many Links, so the spin attack part might be wrong from what I am saying, but I think he is vulnerable at the top and bottom, and tethers can be read if your close by the ledge. However, its nice to know that Dair actually breaks combos as I do that with Tink and I always think they just stop the combo. Also :4cloud2:has limit up b and stalling with Cross Slash, I think Feelicks talked about this earlier in the new list
Overall, I think he should get more play than he does.

-1 :4cloud: I somehow don't feel Cloud. He has a lot of the same kill setups as Link imo but has terrible recovery and iffy range. So long as you shield his Limit Breaks, you're usually in a pretty good spot.

-1 :4sonic:
-1 :4mario: Counter-votes. Top tier is becoming meaningless with all these characters in it.
Your not really counter voting if you are downvoting when everyone else is downvoting
I'm saving my last vote, and I may change them depending on what happens.
I just gave my opinion in the thing bolded so yeh...
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Lot seem to have instantly forgot Sonic almost consistently gets top 16/8 placements at every major he's been at, and still has a rather solid matchup spread. I see the "wah but his neutral sucks and he solely relies on Spindash" sentiment thrown around, even though literally no top Sonic does that. Especially someone like KEN, Komorikiri (when he played him) or K.I.D. Goggles. But you know how much people hate to do their homework in this thread.

OKAY I KNOW I'M A POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK BUT THIS HAS SERIOUSLY ANNOYED ME.

:4sonic:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Xandercosm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,425
Location
the nearest neutron star!
NNID
vineto
All right. I'm going to present evidence for Lucas's case in argumentative format for the sake of ease, so if I start to sound pissy, I encourage you not to take offense to it ( Xandercosm Xandercosm ).

The thing about Lucas is that he's very much overshadowed by Ness. Many pretend he's just a less-capable Ness (which, to an extent, is true), when he has all of the tools at his disposal. I'm going to run through all of them for you. Note that some of what I'll note was already covered by @Feelicks, but I'll reference it here just for the sake of keeping things together.

Let's start with his standard attacks. His jab is very, very quick--tied for fastest in the game, coming out on Frame 2. It even hits behind Lucas, which is an incredible boxing option. His forward tilt is similar, only its damage output and spacing ability is better (when sweetspot), though it first activates on frame 7. Its sourspot can lock opponents who miss their tech or fall victim to one of his infamous footstool combos. His down tilt is also tied for quickest in the game, coming out on frame 3. It can combo into itself, a forward tilt, an up tilt, a grab, or (in some cases) an aerial. It can also lock opponents if they're hit with its tip, which is helpful when you land too far away from your opponent during a 0-death. His sourspotted dash attack can combo into an up tilt at low percents and an up air at mid-percents, and its sweetspot sends opponents at a safe distance while inflicting a nice 11 damage. It works as a wonderful kill option despite its slow startup, as it has low endlag.

His specials are a slightly different story, but still a good one at that. His ability to wavebounce using special stick-PK Fire allows him to zone out opponents to the point of frustration. Even without B-stick, Lucas is still granted the gift of great mobility with this projectile's recoil if he chooses to retreat using it (though, electing not to use B-stick does put him at a disadvantage). PK Freeze is a situational ledgeguard--a good one, at that. It has a relatively small amount of ending lag for its size and mobility. This plays contrast to PK Thunder, which is a very bad option for ledgeguarding and attacking in general due to its moderately high amounts of endlag. PSI Magnet is a great tool for stalling offstage, producing an emergency hitbox, and, well, healing Lucas. Sometimes it can work as an approach option, and it works rather well should the opponent be caught off-guard. All of this combined with his ability to reverse his direction with it mid-air only means it's his best tool when offstage.

Lucas's aerials are iffy to an extent, but still strong overall. His neutral air would be incredible if only its SDI multiplier weren't twice as high as it was in Brawl, but it begins to link better as the opponent reaches mid-percents. Even so, Lucas can follow his opponent's DI at lower percents to begin with, so it's not too big of a detriment. Should every hit of nair link properly, it can be followed up with a forward air, up air, down air, footstool, or another nair. The real kicker here is Lucas's ability to fast-fall his neutral air to bring opponents to the ground and use its low landing lag to follow up with moves like up tilt, forward tilt, down tilt, jab, or grab. His up air hitbox is puny, but with such small amounts of endlag and landing lag, it's pretty safe to throw out for its good 13 damage. Since up tilt, down throw and dash attack combo into it, it has solid uses besides a safe gamble. His back air is a nice approach option and kill move, given that its spike hitbox isn't too hard to get opponents with on the ledge or offstage if you can corner them offstage. It reaches just below the ledge if you're facing away from it, meaning Lucas will be getting lots of two-frame spikes on the ledge. It, like all of Lucas's aerials, has little enough landing lag to be safe to throw out onstage. Its non-spike sweetspot--yes, it has two--kills around the 120% range near the ledge, which is actually pretty late. His down air is very finnicky, but it's viable as a situational approach. Its hitboxes don't link well, but this move shines in two regards: its ability to lock opponents and its gimping ability, the latter of which works well when Lucas hovers just off the ledge while his opponent attempts to recover. It begins to KO opponents starting at around 80%, but most will either be caught off guard or sent too far down to even consider a recovery attempt--lest, of course, the opponent is using a character with a lengthy recovery. However, most of such characters have slow, gimpable recoveries anyway. Lucas's forward air is a wonderful poking tool which also has multiple uses. As a kill move, it's decent at best. However, this move can also lock with its sourspot, combo its sweetspot into itself up to four times in midair at mid percents (you just took 45%), and poke at opponents' shields effectively. His grab air is possibly the most versatile zair in the game as well as Lucas's best tool overall given that it has only 8 frames of landing lag with its incredible reach. Out of a shorthop, it can lead into a forward tilt, down tilt, forward smash, or even a grab. Though it only does 4% max, it adds up when you're walling your opponent out in conjunction with PK Fire. It keeps opponents away and halts

Lucas's smash attacks are relatively slow, but they still have their individual uses. Up smash is a fairly bad move due to its high startup and ending lag. It doesn't see much use unless the player reads their opponent or gets a shield break, but the move pays off greatly in both situations with its above average damage output and absurd knockback growth, as well as invincibility on Lucas's head from frames 15-30 (I believe it's for that long, anyway). His down smash actually has very similar knockback growth values compared to his up smash, its ending lag is significantly shorter, and the attack activates 39 frames earlier. The attack hits thrice and gets bigger with each hitbox (though with progressively less knockback per hit). This is a very questionable move to use onstage as shielding only the first hit of the move will mark the shielder invincible to the latter two, leaving Lucas open to punishes. Where this move shines is on the ledge, due to its already-astounding knockback, large hitbox sizes, and its ability to be spammed combined with its practically-nonexistent punishability on the ledge. If used properly, Lucas can always be safe to throw out this move as a ledgeguard. Lucas's best smash attack is his forward smash, which is not only quicker to start up than Ness's, but is also higher in knockback values than his, killing tens of percents earlier. Lucas has setups into the move as well, the most common of which being zair and down tilt. This move also acts as a means of reflecting opponents' projectiles back at them for 1.5x the damage, which is actually more than Fox's reflector would do. For reference, Ness's frame 21 fsmash reflects for 2.0x the damage, Lucas's frame 14 fsmash reflects for 1.5x the damage, and Fox's frame 6 Reflector reflects for 1.5x the damage. Lucas's reflection ability is middle-of-the-road, but for how safe his fsmash is, it can only be called a viable, versatile move.

Lucas benefits greatly from grabs. Lucas's standing, pivot, and dash grabs are all relatively laggy, as they come out on frames 12, 12, and 14, respectively. They all have moderate amounts of endlag as well (46, 56 and 56, respectively). However, this still leaves Lucas's tether grab as the quickest in the game, which is understandable for its short reach compared to other tether grabs. Even with such boisterous amounts of lag, Lucas won't be suffering from it if he sets up his grabs using zair. After he nets a grab, he can down throw and follow up with any of his aerials--yes, any of them. All of them come out quick enough. Neutral air is the most common and optimal follow up (unless the player is not confident in their ability to follow SDI...or footstool), but forward air is sometimes seen for quick damage--down air is seen as well, but mostly for combo purposes. Back air out of down throw is a common kill setup at higher percents, but the most common of all is his "Mama's Boy" combo: down throw to up air. It begins killing most opponents around 100%, but it can fall apart if Lucas has a lot of rage. If that's the case, the stock can be closed with an up throw (~120%), back throw (~95% near the ledge) or forward throw (~105% near the ledge), all of which have high knockback growth most noticeable within the 130%< range, as the latter two begin KOing from the middle of the stage. In short, all of his throws will be able to kill at some reasonable point, making all of them useful.

Allow me to list some attributes pertaining to Lucas. His air speed is above average (tied for 14th if memory serves correctly), making his aforementioned aerial follow-ups all the more reliable. He has an average weight value at 94 units, is relatively short, and has a passable ground speed. His ability to return to the stage is, in my opinion, unmatched by any other character in the game in terms of distance and variability. Lucas can go under most stages if the player is crazy enough to attempt it, but even without doing so, he has the ability to halt his midair momentum and bait gimps with PSI Magnet, gain distance (whether it be from the blast zone or his opponent) with PK Fire, snap back to the ledge with his tether recovery, or go plain and simple with his PK Thunder 2--which travels twice the length of Ness's. Lucas can fake out a tether recovery by tapping down just before the Rope Snake grabs onto the ledge, giving him a safe mix-up option to recover using PK Thunder 2.

Lucas's 0-death is not as difficult as one may believe. His footstool combos can very easily turn the tides of a match, though it seems it's best fitted to Final Destination. If Lucas counterpicks Final Destination, his opponent may be in for a rough time.

Lucas is clearly a very capable character to the player who desires to learn the full extent of all of his tools--he belongs in Tier 3 for sure. I understand it's not exactly the most comparative essay, but I'll be sure to amend it at a time during which I do not have a headache.

I should've called upon my dude Strawbaby Strawbaby --he knows infinitely more about this character than I do. At least he can help back up/clarify this information.
Very interesting. I think that was quite a well written run-down of Lucas's moveset. The thing is, you listed all his strengths without thinking about his weaknesses as well. Every character has some great attributes that you could list. Zelda has her ladder which KOs incredibly early, Ganondorf has a super fast U-air that can edge-guard like mad, etc. Does that mean those characters are good? No.

For the sake of discussion, I will explain some of the weaknesses I know that Lucas suffers from: First of all, the character struggles quite a lot with killing because of his unconventional and few killing options and his bad Smash attacks don't help. I would say he suffers a bit from what I call the "Pikachu Effect". Whenever the opponent is at KO percent, Lucas has to work incredibly hard to actually secure that kill because he just doesn't have any super reliable KO options. In my opinion, this is a huge issue and the main reason why Pikachu is so hard to get reward with as well.

Another issue he has is his poor range. He gets walled out like mad against characters with big disjoints such as Cloud. This would be less of a problem if he had the tools and/or frame data to make up the difference (like Mario) but he simply doesn't. He has no quick combo breakers and he doesn't have that one long range move that he can use to get in and rack that big damage. This means that he struggles a lot against characters with a lot of range and that's a huge deal since there are a lot of dominant characters with good range (Cloud, Rosa, even Mewtwo, etc). I feel like that's a bit of a gatekeeper for him.

He also just has some really weird hitboxes on all his moves. U-air has a ton of trouble actually hitting opponents, B-air's hitbox is really hard to control to get the hitbox you want, F-air just has plain old no range, N-air is ruined by SDI wether you can read SDI or not, and D-air is so jank and has trouble connecting. I don't think his aerials are bad but the hitboxes are really messed up and probably need to be completely reworked. Overall, I think that his hitboxes really hurt his consistency.

I could go on, but at the end of the day, my point is really that Lucas has not yet proven himself in any way and does not have strong enough theory alone to put him in Tier 3. I certainly could see him there in the future if someone comes along who knows something other people don't and can take advantage of his tools in a really unexpected way. However, I find the that prospect unlikely and until that does happen, he won't be a Tier 3 character to me.
 

DMWN

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
138
Location
Onett, the wildflower of Eagleland.
NNID
poe376
Very interesting. I think that was quite a well written run-down of Lucas's moveset. The thing is, you listed all his strengths without thinking about his weaknesses as well. Every character has some great attributes that you could list. Zelda has her ladder which KOs incredibly early, Ganondorf has a super fast U-air that can edge-guard like mad, etc. Does that mean those characters are good? No.

For the sake of discussion, I will explain some of the weaknesses I know that Lucas suffers from: First of all, the character struggles quite a lot with killing because of his unconventional and few killing options and his bad Smash attacks don't help. I would say he suffers a bit from what I call the "Pikachu Effect". Whenever the opponent is at KO percent, Lucas has to work incredibly hard to actually secure that kill because he just doesn't have any super reliable KO options. In my opinion, this is a huge issue and the main reason why Pikachu is so hard to get reward with as well.

Another issue he has is his poor range. He gets walled out like mad against characters with big disjoints such as Cloud. This would be less of a problem if he had the tools and/or frame data to make up the difference (like Mario) but he simply doesn't. He has no quick combo breakers and he doesn't have that one long range move that he can use to get in and rack that big damage. This means that he struggles a lot against characters with a lot of range and that's a huge deal since there are a lot of dominant characters with good range (Cloud, Rosa, even Mewtwo, etc). I feel like that's a bit of a gatekeeper for him.

He also just has some really weird hitboxes on all his moves. U-air has a ton of trouble actually hitting opponents, B-air's hitbox is really hard to control to get the hitbox you want, F-air just has plain old no range, N-air is ruined by SDI wether you can read SDI or not, and D-air is so jank and has trouble connecting. I don't think his aerials are bad but the hitboxes are really messed up and probably need to be completely reworked. Overall, I think that his hitboxes really hurt his consistency.

I could go on, but at the end of the day, my point is really that Lucas has not yet proven himself in any way and does not have strong enough theory alone to put him in Tier 3. I certainly could see him there in the future if someone comes along who knows something other people don't and can take advantage of his tools in a really unexpected way. However, I find the that prospect unlikely and until that does happen, he won't be a Tier 3 character to me.
The only thing you really introduced to this discussion was your second paragraph (which I halfheartedly agree with). The rest I covered in-depth and refuted already. If you'd paid more attention while reading, you would have noticed that I did indeed note his flaws and how to work around them, whereas you listed something generic that works with any character. Try writing a similarly detailed analysis to mine on Falco or someone, then tell me I'm sugarcoating.
Taiheita just beat the best Bayonetta in Japan as Lucas on several accounts. Does that really not mean anything to you? You're free to have your opinion, but whether or not you "believe" he's doesn't have what it takes to be tier 3 matters not--he'll end up there anyway.

Is Lucas really in such a different boat as, say, Peach?
Think about it.
 
Last edited:

TMNTSSB4

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
29,396
Location
John Cena
NNID
No More
3DS FC
3368-4469-9312
Switch FC
SW-6414-0526-7609
  1. Very interesting. I think that was quite a well written run-down of Lucas's moveset. The thing is, you listed all his strengths without thinking about his weaknesses as well. Every character has some great attributes that you could list. Zelda has her ladder which KOs incredibly early, Ganondorf has a super fast U-air that can edge-guard like mad, etc. Does that mean those characters are good? No.

    For the sake of discussion, I will explain some of the weaknesses I know that Lucas suffers from: First of all, the character struggles quite a lot with killing because of his unconventional and few killing options and his bad Smash attacks don't help. I would say he suffers a bit from what I call the "Pikachu Effect". Whenever the opponent is at KO percent, Lucas has to work incredibly hard to actually secure that kill because he just doesn't have any super reliable KO options. In my opinion, this is a huge issue and the main reason why Pikachu is so hard to get reward with as well.

    Another issue he has is his poor range. He gets walled out like mad against characters with big disjoints such as Cloud. This would be less of a problem if he had the tools and/or frame data to make up the difference (like Mario) but he simply doesn't. He has no quick combo breakers and he doesn't have that one long range move that he can use to get in and rack that big damage. This means that he struggles a lot against characters with a lot of range and that's a huge deal since there are a lot of dominant characters with good range (Cloud, Rosa, even Mewtwo, etc). I feel like that's a bit of a gatekeeper for him.

    He also just has some really weird hitboxes on all his moves. U-air has a ton of trouble actually hitting opponents, B-air's hitbox is really hard to control to get the hitbox you want, F-air just has plain old no range, N-air is ruined by SDI wether you can read SDI or not, and D-air is so jank and has trouble connecting. I don't think his aerials are bad but the hitboxes are really messed up and probably need to be completely reworked. Overall, I think that his hitboxes really hurt his consistency.

    I could go on, but at the end of the day, my point is really that Lucas has not yet proven himself in any way and does not have strong enough theory alone to put him in Tier 3. I certainly could see him there in the future if someone comes along who knows something other people don't and can take advantage of his tools in a really unexpected way. However, I find the that prospect unlikely and until that does happen, he won't be a Tier 3 character to me.
    Holy
    All right. I'm going to present evidence for Lucas's case in argumentative format for the sake of ease, so if I start to sound pissy, I encourage you not to take offense to it ( Xandercosm Xandercosm ).

    The thing about Lucas is that he's very much overshadowed by Ness. Many pretend he's just a less-capable Ness (which, to an extent, is true), when he has all of the tools at his disposal. I'm going to run through all of them for you. Note that some of what I'll note was already covered by @Feelicks, but I'll reference it here just for the sake of keeping things together.

    Let's start with his standard attacks. His jab is very, very quick--tied for fastest in the game, coming out on Frame 2. It even hits behind Lucas, which is an incredible boxing option. His forward tilt is similar, only its damage output and spacing ability is better (when sweetspot), though it first activates on frame 7. Its sourspot can lock opponents who miss their tech or fall victim to one of his infamous footstool combos. His down tilt is also tied for quickest in the game, coming out on frame 3. It can combo into itself, a forward tilt, an up tilt, a grab, or (in some cases) an aerial. It can also lock opponents if they're hit with its tip, which is helpful when you land too far away from your opponent during a 0-death. His sourspotted dash attack can combo into an up tilt at low percents and an up air at mid-percents, and its sweetspot sends opponents at a safe distance while inflicting a nice 11 damage. It works as a wonderful kill option despite its slow startup, as it has low endlag.

    His specials are a slightly different story, but still a good one at that. His ability to wavebounce using special stick-PK Fire allows him to zone out opponents to the point of frustration. Even without B-stick, Lucas is still granted the gift of great mobility with this projectile's recoil if he chooses to retreat using it (though, electing not to use B-stick does put him at a disadvantage). PK Freeze is a situational ledgeguard--a good one, at that. It has a relatively small amount of ending lag for its size and mobility. This plays contrast to PK Thunder, which is a very bad option for ledgeguarding and attacking in general due to its moderately high amounts of endlag. PSI Magnet is a great tool for stalling offstage, producing an emergency hitbox, and, well, healing Lucas. Sometimes it can work as an approach option, and it works rather well should the opponent be caught off-guard. All of this combined with his ability to reverse his direction with it mid-air only means it's his best tool when offstage.

    Lucas's aerials are iffy to an extent, but still strong overall. His neutral air would be incredible if only its SDI multiplier weren't twice as high as it was in Brawl, but it begins to link better as the opponent reaches mid-percents. Even so, Lucas can follow his opponent's DI at lower percents to begin with, so it's not too big of a detriment. Should every hit of nair link properly, it can be followed up with a forward air, up air, down air, footstool, or another nair. The real kicker here is Lucas's ability to fast-fall his neutral air to bring opponents to the ground and use its low landing lag to follow up with moves like up tilt, forward tilt, down tilt, jab, or grab. His up air hitbox is puny, but with such small amounts of endlag and landing lag, it's pretty safe to throw out for its good 13 damage. Since up tilt, down throw and dash attack combo into it, it has solid uses besides a safe gamble. His back air is a nice approach option and kill move, given that its spike hitbox isn't too hard to get opponents with on the ledge or offstage if you can corner them offstage. It reaches just below the ledge if you're facing away from it, meaning Lucas will be getting lots of two-frame spikes on the ledge. It, like all of Lucas's aerials, has little enough landing lag to be safe to throw out onstage. Its non-spike sweetspot--yes, it has two--kills around the 120% range near the ledge, which is actually pretty late. His down air is very finnicky, but it's viable as a situational approach. Its hitboxes don't link well, but this move shines in two regards: its ability to lock opponents and its gimping ability, the latter of which works well when Lucas hovers just off the ledge while his opponent attempts to recover. It begins to KO opponents starting at around 80%, but most will either be caught off guard or sent too far down to even consider a recovery attempt--lest, of course, the opponent is using a character with a lengthy recovery. However, most of such characters have slow, gimpable recoveries anyway. Lucas's forward air is a wonderful poking tool which also has multiple uses. As a kill move, it's decent at best. However, this move can also lock with its sourspot, combo its sweetspot into itself up to four times in midair at mid percents (you just took 45%), and poke at opponents' shields effectively. His grab air is possibly the most versatile zair in the game as well as Lucas's best tool overall given that it has only 8 frames of landing lag with its incredible reach. Out of a shorthop, it can lead into a forward tilt, down tilt, forward smash, or even a grab. Though it only does 4% max, it adds up when you're walling your opponent out in conjunction with PK Fire. It keeps opponents away and halts

    Lucas's smash attacks are relatively slow, but they still have their individual uses. Up smash is a fairly bad move due to its high startup and ending lag. It doesn't see much use unless the player reads their opponent or gets a shield break, but the move pays off greatly in both situations with its above average damage output and absurd knockback growth, as well as invincibility on Lucas's head from frames 15-30 (I believe it's for that long, anyway). His down smash actually has very similar knockback growth values compared to his up smash, its ending lag is significantly shorter, and the attack activates 39 frames earlier. The attack hits thrice and gets bigger with each hitbox (though with progressively less knockback per hit). This is a very questionable move to use onstage as shielding only the first hit of the move will mark the shielder invincible to the latter two, leaving Lucas open to punishes. Where this move shines is on the ledge, due to its already-astounding knockback, large hitbox sizes, and its ability to be spammed combined with its practically-nonexistent punishability on the ledge. If used properly, Lucas can always be safe to throw out this move as a ledgeguard. Lucas's best smash attack is his forward smash, which is not only quicker to start up than Ness's, but is also higher in knockback values than his, killing tens of percents earlier. Lucas has setups into the move as well, the most common of which being zair and down tilt. This move also acts as a means of reflecting opponents' projectiles back at them for 1.5x the damage, which is actually more than Fox's reflector would do. For reference, Ness's frame 21 fsmash reflects for 2.0x the damage, Lucas's frame 14 fsmash reflects for 1.5x the damage, and Fox's frame 6 Reflector reflects for 1.5x the damage. Lucas's reflection ability is middle-of-the-road, but for how safe his fsmash is, it can only be called a viable, versatile move.

    Lucas benefits greatly from grabs. Lucas's standing, pivot, and dash grabs are all relatively laggy, as they come out on frames 12, 12, and 14, respectively. They all have moderate amounts of endlag as well (46, 56 and 56, respectively). However, this still leaves Lucas's tether grab as the quickest in the game, which is understandable for its short reach compared to other tether grabs. Even with such boisterous amounts of lag, Lucas won't be suffering from it if he sets up his grabs using zair. After he nets a grab, he can down throw and follow up with any of his aerials--yes, any of them. All of them come out quick enough. Neutral air is the most common and optimal follow up (unless the player is not confident in their ability to follow SDI...or footstool), but forward air is sometimes seen for quick damage--down air is seen as well, but mostly for combo purposes. Back air out of down throw is a common kill setup at higher percents, but the most common of all is his "Mama's Boy" combo: down throw to up air. It begins killing most opponents around 100%, but it can fall apart if Lucas has a lot of rage. If that's the case, the stock can be closed with an up throw (~120%), back throw (~95% near the ledge) or forward throw (~105% near the ledge), all of which have high knockback growth most noticeable within the 130%< range, as the latter two begin KOing from the middle of the stage. In short, all of his throws will be able to kill at some reasonable point, making all of them useful.

    Allow me to list some attributes pertaining to Lucas. His air speed is above average (tied for 14th if memory serves correctly), making his aforementioned aerial follow-ups all the more reliable. He has an average weight value at 94 units, is relatively short, and has a passable ground speed. His ability to return to the stage is, in my opinion, unmatched by any other character in the game in terms of distance and variability. Lucas can go under most stages if the player is crazy enough to attempt it, but even without doing so, he has the ability to halt his midair momentum and bait gimps with PSI Magnet, gain distance (whether it be from the blast zone or his opponent) with PK Fire, snap back to the ledge with his tether recovery, or go plain and simple with his PK Thunder 2--which travels twice the length of Ness's. Lucas can fake out a tether recovery by tapping down just before the Rope Snake grabs onto the ledge, giving him a safe mix-up option to recover using PK Thunder 2.

    Lucas's 0-death is not as difficult as one may believe. His footstool combos can very easily turn the tides of a match, though it seems it's best fitted to Final Destination. If Lucas counterpicks Final Destination, his opponent may be in for a rough time.

    Lucas is clearly a very capable character to the player who desires to learn the full extent of all of his tools--he belongs in Tier 3 for sure. I understand it's not exactly the most comparative essay, but I'll be sure to amend it at a time during which I do not have a headache.

    I should've called upon my dude Strawbaby Strawbaby --he knows infinitely more about this character than I do. At least he can help back up/clarify this information.
    ****ing
    The only thing you really introduced to this discussion was your second paragraph (which I halfheartedly agree with). The rest I covered in-depth and refuted already. If you'd paid more attention while reading, you would have noticed that I did indeed note his flaws and how to work around them, whereas you listed something generic that works with any character. Try writing a similarly detailed analysis to mine on Falco or someone, then tell me I'm sugarcoating.
    Taiheita just beat the best Bayonetta in Japan as Lucas on several accounts. Does that really not mean anything to you? You're free to have your opinion, but whether or not you "believe" he's doesn't have what it takes to be tier 3 matters not--he'll end up there anyway.

    Is Lucas really in such a different boat as, say, Peach?
    Think about it.
    Well this one isn't as long as the other 2, but you most definitely support those Earthbound/Mother boys
 

Xandercosm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,425
Location
the nearest neutron star!
NNID
vineto
The only thing you really introduced to this discussion was your second paragraph (which I halfheartedly agree with). The rest I covered in-depth and refuted already. If you'd paid more attention while reading, you would have noticed that I did indeed note his flaws and how to work around them, whereas you listed something generic that works with any character. Try writing a similarly detailed analysis to mine on Falco or someone, then tell me I'm sugarcoating.
Taiheita just beat the best Bayonetta in Japan as Lucas on several accounts. Does that really not mean anything to you? You're free to have your opinion, but whether or not you "believe" he's doesn't have what it takes to be tier 3 matters not--he'll end up there anyway.

Is Lucas really in such a different boat as, say, Peach?
Think about it.
You are overrating your own writing skills. That's quite a big ego. I kid, though...

The thing is, you are pretty much blatantly ignoring this character's issues and telling me that "wether or not I believe it, he will end up in Tier 3" means absolutely nothing. What you just said in the paragraph above is something a literally can't respond to. The TL:DR for that is: I am right, you are wrong. End of story.

How am I supposed to respond to that? You say that I didn't bring anything to the table but that seems a bit hypocritical when you are basically expecting me to just accept your opinion because you say so. I really don't want to have a heated argument but you are not really making any convincing points and don't expect me to just take your word for things without any reasoning.

Also, on a different note, what boat is Peach in? She doesn't deserve to be in Tier 3 either.
 

DMWN

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
138
Location
Onett, the wildflower of Eagleland.
NNID
poe376
You are overrating your own writing skills. That's quite a big ego. I kid, though...

The thing is, you are pretty much blatantly ignoring this character's issues and telling me that "wether or not I believe it, he will end up in Tier 3" means absolutely nothing. What you just said in the paragraph above is something a literally can't respond to. The TL:DR for that is: I am right, you are wrong. End of story.

How am I supposed to respond to that? You say that I didn't bring anything to the table but that seems a bit hypocritical when you are basically expecting me to just accept your opinion because you say so. I really don't want to have a heated argument but you are not really making any convincing points and don't expect me to just take your word for things without any reasoning.

Also, on a different note, what boat is Peach in? She doesn't deserve to be in Tier 3 either.
First sentence is a jab at me. "I kid, though." Am I really the one overrating my writing skills when you're the fool who believes I'll look past that petty insult if you put "I kid"? Ad hominem fallacy, kiddo.

This is the second time I have to explain this, but that was probably your goal--to make me waste my time.
I realize Lucas has issues. If only you weren't so overanalytical, you could see that--you're scrambling so hard to look for fallacies in my writing that you can't even gather enough information to understand my opinion, but I guess I'll just have to explain it all in simple wording so you can get it through your head:
Lucas has pretty big flaws, but the positives outweigh the negatives and what flaws he has can be compensated for in few scenarios.
What flaws are those? Simple: He can't get in on fast characters. He has to wait for those characters to make mistakes, but by the time they leave their openings for punishes, Lucas can't respond. His wonky hitboxes are hard to grasp, sure, but they do their job. No, he has no reliable combo breaker, nor does he have any lightning-quick aerials. Not every character in tier 3 does. Yeah, I could go on about Lucas's flaws, but what's the point if you covered all of them already? Even so, those flaws aren't glaring enough to hold him back as much as you seem to believe, in my opinion. The only other bane I could think of is his lack of out-of-shield options, and even that's debatable.

What's your ethos? Do you even play this character?

Why do you claim I'm shoving my opinion down your throat when I said you're completely entitled to your own?

"I am right. You are wrong."
Yeah, uh... Mind telling me what exactly you're "right" about? 'Cause you'd look pretty silly to say my opinion is wrong. :p My "argument" was made simply so you could see my point of view, not so you would admit Lucas is some mystical god character. False dilemma fallacy. (Man, compared to your writing, it's almost like I have the right to talk up my writing. I kid, though.)

"I really don't want to have a heated argument"
Looking at your track record, you seem to be very, very fond of heated arguments, and I have nearly every regular on the thread to back me up on that.

Also, on a different note, Peach is in the "not so many results but is still considered to be okay" boat.
...But you shouldn't go around stating your opinion on Peach as if she factually belongs in a tier lower than 3. ;)

I swear, the day when you admit you're not correct in every little argument you spark is one I'm sure means the world is turning upside-down.
 
Last edited:

Xandercosm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,425
Location
the nearest neutron star!
NNID
vineto
First sentence is a jab at me. "I kid, though." Am I really the one overrating my writing skills when you're the fool who believes I'll look past that petty insult if you put "I kid"? Ad hominem fallacy, kiddo.

This is the second time I have to explain this, but that was probably your goal--to make me waste my time.
I realize Lucas has issues. If only you weren't so overanalytical, you could see that--you're scrambling so hard to look for fallacies in my writing that you can't even gather enough information to understand my opinion, but I guess I'll just have to explain it all in simple wording so you can get it through your head:
Lucas has pretty big flaws, but the positives outweigh the negatives and what flaws he has can be compensated for in few scenarios.
What flaws are those? Simple: He can't get in on fast characters. He has to wait for those characters to make mistakes, but by the time they leave their openings for punishes, Lucas can't respond. His wonky hitboxes are hard to grasp, sure, but they do their job. No, he has no reliable combo breaker, nor does he have any lightning-quick aerials. Not every character in tier 3 does. Yeah, I could go on about Lucas's flaws, but what's the point if you covered all of them already? Even so, those flaws aren't glaring enough to hold him back as much as you seem to believe, in my opinion. The only other bane I could think of is his lack of out-of-shield options, and even that's debatable.

What's your ethos? Do you even play this character?

Why do you claim I'm shoving my opinion down your throat when I said you're completely entitled to your own?

"I am right. You are wrong."
Yeah, uh... Mind telling me what exactly you're "right" about? 'Cause you'd look pretty silly to say my opinion is wrong. :p My "argument" was made simply so you could see my point of view, not so you would admit Lucas is some mystical god character. False dilemma fallacy. (Man, compared to your writing, it's almost like I have the right to talk up my writing. I kid, though.)

"I really don't want to have a heated argument"
Looking at your track record, you seem to be very, very fond of heated arguments, and I have nearly every regular on the thread to back me up on that.

Also, on a different note, Peach is in the "not so many results but is still considered to be okay" boat.
...But you shouldn't go around stating your opinion on Peach as if she factually belongs in a tier lower than 3. ;)

I swear, the day when you admit you're not correct in every little argument you spark is one I'm sure means the world is turning upside-down.
I'm gonna opt out of this discussion right now because we all know where these types of things go. You sound really angry and annoyed. You are clearly letting my little "jab" get to you which is exactly the reaction I would have been looking for were I a troll. You need to calm down.

All I can say is that we clearly have to agree to disagree because this isn't going in a healthy direction. But, please, in the future tone down your attitude. It really doesn't help a debate to have people getting upset for no reason. We are talking about video game here.

You don't sound very mature, to be honest, which IS something we should all strive for on this thread.
 

DMWN

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
138
Location
Onett, the wildflower of Eagleland.
NNID
poe376
I'm gonna opt out of this discussion right now because we all know where these types of things go. You sound really angry and annoyed. You are clearly letting my little "jab" get to you which is exactly the reaction I would have been looking for were I a troll. You need to calm down.

All I can say is that we clearly have to agree to disagree because this isn't going in a healthy direction. But, please, in the future tone down your attitude. It really doesn't help a debate to have people getting upset for no reason. We are talking about video game here.

You don't sound very mature, to be honest, which IS something we should all strive for on this thread.
the hypocrisy is killing me
but I'll now opt out as well

@Feelicks, how's Peach looking in terms of results?
 
Last edited:

DarkAuraful

Torpid Dragon
Joined
Nov 29, 2015
Messages
1,154
Location
Tenebris#4427
- 1 to :4lucina:: Still surprised to see her that high. Although a few gaps between her and Marth could be more accurate, it's still better than separating them by ten people.
- 1 to :4marth:: Sorry, but I don't think he should be in the same league as Ike or Pits. Of course, that's obviously because I've been living inside a rock, not knowing the work Pugwest and Mr. E are putting into.

+ 1 to :4lucas:
+ 1 to :4robinm:
+ 1 to :4shulk:

I not up to date with the competitive scene as much as I should, so take this as you would. I wonder how many people are going to be mad this post anyways.
 

Phuckyew

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
31
Hello all! I've been lurking for quite some time and decided to finally make an account. With my greeting out of the way, I would like to put in one vote:

+:4drmario: Because of his clone (I would almost argue semi clone but this isn't the time for that) status, he's often overlooked and considered to be an inferior Mario. He does however have merits in his solid kill power, superior short hop and doc tornado. Being an inferior copy of one of the best characters in the game doesn't make him a bad character.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
the hypocrisy is killing me
but I'll now opt out as well

@Feelicks, how's Peach looking in terms of results?
Peach gets a ton of **** for a lot of reasons, but results shouldn't be one of them.

7th at Paragon LA 2015
17th and 33rd at GENESIS 3
13th at Umebura F.A.T.
7th at Umebura 21
25th at Umebura 22
17th at BEAST 6

I don't believe Peach is high tier, but her being right smack-dab of middle or upper-mid seems more accurate.
 

Cyn

Sith Archivist
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
23,495
Location
The Farthest Shore
Guys, please keep the discussion here civil. There is no reason that an argument has to become hostile. Thank you for acknowledging the behavior and curbing it before it got out of hand. But please remember that inflammatory remarks will not be tolerated. Thanks.
 

Airpoizon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
91
NNID
(Private)
3DS FC
0946-2898-1267
:4feroy: +1 This guy is definitely not bottom tier, he should be high-mid
:4dk: +1 He's good, has rep, results, yeah.
:4link: -1 I swear this is the most overrated character anywhere I look for tier standings
:4cloud: -1 he's definitely good, just a bit overrated.
:4robinm: +1 Robin is very, very slow, and requires a very technical player to master
 
Last edited:

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
You're thinking about it in a bubble. Citing some random results doesn't really make a character more viable. I agree that double eliminating a Rosalina player is nice but it's just one result. The same can even be said for Mewtwo but to a lesser extent. Yes, he won a major but that is just one result. Characters have to become more significant before we can start saying they should move up a large amount.
Hold up a second.

First of all, that one result of winning a major is one huge result. Anyway . . .

Mewtwo doesn't have a results problem, as of the past few months, Mewtwo's results on a regional level are easily above average and are mostly on par with those in tier two. Hitaku, Mew^2, and LoF Blue especially have racked up great results at regional tournies.

Notable Wins (without Abadango):
Nairo
Trevonte
Aerolink
Mew2king (twice)
Vex
Apple
Hooded
Denti
Jerm
Megafox
K9sBruce
Mr.ConCon
Nicko
K9sBruce
Zex
Mr. Eric
CRZ
J. Miller
ONI Day

and there are some more, Those are all I can think of right now.

TBH it seems like people are just scared to call Mewtwo high tier because of how bad he was before the recent patches. I'd imagine if someone like corrin had results like these, people would have an easier time believing he's high tier. Mewtwo doesn't fit the mold of a traditional high tier, but he definitely has done enough to deserve it in IMO.

:150:
 

jespoke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
239
Location
Denmark
NNID
Jespoke
Hold up a second.

TBH it seems like people are just scared to call Mewtwo high tier because of how bad he was before the recent patches. I'd imagine if someone like corrin had results like these, people would have an easier time believing he's high tier. Mewtwo doesn't fit the mold of a traditional high tier, but he definitely has done enough to deserve it in IMO.

:150:
I think people are just hesitant to believe in something shooting quickly up or down the tier list because of repeated cases of overestimation of the impact of buffs and nerfs, :4diddy: being the prime example. This will smooth out over time.
 
Last edited:

Zerp

Formerly "ZeroSoul"
Administrator
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
4,625
Location
South Carolina
1::4bayonetta::4zss::4diddy::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4ryu::4mario:
2::4cloud::4fox::4metaknight::4villager::4ness::4pikachu::4mewtwo:
3::4greninja::4corrin::4falcon::4tlink:(:4darkpit::4pit:):4rob::4dk::4lucario::4luigi::4myfriends::4peach::4megaman::4marth::4lucina:
4::4yoshi::4kirby::4pacman::4miibrawl::4lucas::4robinf::4olimar::4wario::4wiifit::4gaw::4link::4samus::4bowser:
5::4miigun::4miisword::4shulk::4falco::4drmario::4bowserjr::4littlemac::4charizard:
6::4feroy::4palutena::4duckhunt::4dedede::4ganondorf:
7::4zelda::4jigglypuff: Ganondorf apparently decided to move out of the cool club for a while but at least we're not alone down here.
:4cloud2: + 1 Oh he's totally not a top tier guys, he's got a plethora of weaknesses, a crappy neutral, terrible dash, a terribly inefficient gimmick called limit break that he never ever gets to use, is insanely punishable on shield especially after limit break Side B, and has by far the worst aerials in the game. Cloud is terribad.
:4kirby: - 1 Still a bit too high up on the ladder imo, personally I think he belongs with Falco and the good Doctor.
Edit: :4link: -1 Somehow didn't notice him being so high, it's like he was using camouflage or something.

I'll save my other votes for later.
:4miibrawl:+1 XXXX Mii Smaller is terrifying, I'm guessing people don't talk about him/her much is that it's banned in most places.
:4sonic:+1 Sorry for the counter-vote but as long as our current S Tier has Ryu + Mario I believe Sonic is truly worthy of being up in S Tier, he's pretty darn good in theory, and gets far in Tourneys, recently even winning Umebura 22, I cannot see him being a whole entire Tier below them. Maybe a borderline S.5 Tier for Ryu Mario and Sonic would make sense since they aren't as overwhelming as the other S's are imo, but if they count as true S Tiers for right now then I see no reason for Sanic to be a tier below them.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
why are so many people downvoting Cloud anyway lol. Y'all really want him in tier 2?
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
I want to say that it's very easy to make a character sound good. While some of the wording may have not been the best choice, what Xandercosm Xandercosm said was totally right; without properly touching on the negatives, it's easy to make a character sound great. I'll have a go with a different character. For the sake of discussion, I'll choose Falco...

Falco has many strengths. To start, his ground moves are great; a frame 2 jab with a great rapid jab and finisher is fantastic for close quarters. His dash attack has absurd active frames, launches at a good angle for follow ups, and can even KO at high percents. It's also a great move for crossing up shields. His F/Dtilts both come out rather quickly, at frame 6 and 7, and both have an FAF of 28, which makes them very safe to throw out. His Utilt is a great juggler, and can catch regular ledge getups and true combo straight into a Dair to finish stocks off. His smash attacks are all very strong, which is nice. His legs are even intangible in Up and Down Smashes. He has lots of combo ability thanks to multiple combo starters, such as Utilt, Dthrow and Uthrow, and luckily to compliment this, multiple moves to combo, such as neutral, forward, and up aerials. Back aerial can also combo into itself from a down throw via RAR, which is an incredible option near the ledge. Of note, all of hit aerials can be used to score KO's; up, forward and back can all be used on stage, but all can be used off stage for fantastic effect. They all come out quickly, and are powerful (aside nair), with back air being frame 4 and is one of the strongest back airs in the entire game. In fact, most of his aerials chain into themselves. His ledge game is fearsome because of these points, and it is made only better by his fantastic jumps, and great recovery, which allows him to go deep or far out with ease. He prefers the air, you know? To top it off, he has a projectile, and a reflector, only giving his kit even more utility.

So, with all this, why isn't Falco top or high tier? He certainly has great tools and multiple options. Hit kit is fantastically well rounded, and has lots of options. Falco's weaknesses hold him back, however. While he has far less total weaknesses than total strengths, they are significant enough to keep him down. While he has lots of fantastic ground options, his sub par mobility prevents him from utilising them to full effect. This is only hampered further by his lack of a safe approach, as his projectile has lots of endlag and doesn't travel quick enough to warrant using it often. Falco has no real safe neutral game, and relies on the opponent making mistakes to get his damage and setups. This alone cripples Falco. While Falco is not bad, he can't ever be good unless his core problem, a neutral game. This alone holds him back significantly.

It's easy to gloss over weaknesses of a character, or, play them down. To be fair, I do think Falco is a relatively decent character, but I know his weaknesses hold him back.

I like you DMWN DMWN , you know exactly what you're on about and get straight to the point. However, you must be the only Lucas player I know who assumes that Lucas's positives outweigh his negatives. Of course, that's fine, you're allowed your own opinion, I'm not saying you can't think that, but let's look into it a bit more... I'm no pro Lucas player, but I think I can get a good grasp of the characters strengths and weaknesses. I'll have a go anyway...

By my reckoning, Lucas's ground moves are very useful. They are quick, and can be used most times in close quarters to beat most characters options, with jab and down tilt being frame 2 and 3 respectively. He also has a lot of disjointed hitboxes on at least half of his moveset, and of course, disjoints are a very cool thing to possess, and are always a help, increasing the safety of moves with said points. His smashes are among the strongest in the game, which is a great plus point. His grab, while the shortest reaching tether grab, is still one of the longest ranged grabs in the game, and he gets lots of reward from his grab. His down throw is a great combo starter, and while mixed DI can make follow ups hard, he has an option for each method of DI, which is great. His aerials are all relatively powerful, and damaging. Neutral air gets a special mention for being fantastic at being able to chain into itself, and thus, can be hard to tech due to multiple hits. Lucas also has projectiles, which are always helpful. PK Fire is great as a disrupter as it launches opponents away at an unfavourable angle, and if hit, can often win Lucas the stage control due to this. PK Thunder is a very controllable projectile that can force reactions and tack on damage along the way. He also has a zair/grab aerial, so this can also be used as an approach option and an alternate recovery option. PK Thunder 2 is long ranged and hard to interrupt when Lucas is on the move, giving Lucas a relatively strong recovery.

So, with all these strengths, why isn't Lucas so high on the tier list? He does possess flaws, and unfortunately, how I see it, they are enough to keep him back (though not to the same extent as say, Falco). To start with, despite him having powerful smashes, throws and KO options, they all have flaws. His smashes are all slow or punishable upon use, and his grab is punishable when missed, which is easy to bait out by staying in shield, and can be easily avoided by simply jumping, and the endlag is high enough to be punished upon whiffed. In fact, that brings me to another point. Good utilisation of PK Fire I feel is crucial to success with Lucas, but the problem lies here. It's laggy on start up, and laggy on endlag. Standard human reaction time is 13 frames. PK Fire comes out on frame 21, thus, is relatively easy to shield. Add onto this that the move has a FAF of 53, and you have one of your main spacing and baiting tools being one of the more punishable moves in your moveset. You can shield most of Lucas's main approach options, such as PK Fire, Thunder and Zair, to which has has little answer other than grab. And in a similar vein to characters like Roy (though not to the same extent), Lucas's lack of autocancels particularly harms his aerial approach options. His subpar mobility and further compounds to this. Another problem I find with Lucas is that his moves require a lot of precision; certain moves have sourspots that can hinder the overall potential of them. Up Air, while powerful, has a criminally small hitbox and timing. And while his ground attacks such as jab and down tilt are fast, they lack range, which forces Lucas to fight up close in such situations.

And there we go. Like I say, I'm no Lucas expert, but I can see his strengths and weaknesses clearly. His weaknesses seem enough to hold him back, but are luckily, not as detrimental or to the same extent as say Falco and Roy's weaknesses. I cannot for one minute see how a character with problems or issues such as these, be a tier 2 character as you implied before. Potentially a tier 3 character, maybe, but not tier 2.

I will just give my closing thoughts on Lucas: I honestly find Lucas to be rather underwhelming, but by no means bad. I feel he is at least mid tier. I'm personally quite happy with his placement right now (for a start, I think Kirby should be lower than Lucas, but that's for a different debate).
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member

Guest
Everyone will see Lucas is a good character this year like everyone did with Mewtwo back then.

I'm just sayin'.
 

Xandercosm

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
1,425
Location
the nearest neutron star!
NNID
vineto
Everyone will see Lucas is a good character this year like everyone did with Mewtwo back then.

I'm just sayin'.
Yup. Just cause you say so without any reasoning to back it up. Seems legit. ;)

I want to say that it's very easy to make a character sound good. While some of the wording may have not been the best choice, what Xandercosm Xandercosm said was totally right; without properly touching on the negatives, it's easy to make a character sound great. I'll have a go with a different character. For the sake of discussion, I'll choose Falco...

Falco has many strengths. To start, his ground moves are great; a frame 2 jab with a great rapid jab and finisher is fantastic for close quarters. His dash attack has absurd active frames, launches at a good angle for follow ups, and can even KO at high percents. It's also a great move for crossing up shields. His F/Dtilts both come out rather quickly, at frame 6 and 7, and both have an FAF of 28, which makes them very safe to throw out. His Utilt is a great juggler, and can catch regular ledge getups and true combo straight into a Dair to finish stocks off. His smash attacks are all very strong, which is nice. His legs are even intangible in Up and Down Smashes. He has lots of combo ability thanks to multiple combo starters, such as Utilt, Dthrow and Uthrow, and luckily to compliment this, multiple moves to combo, such as neutral, forward, and up aerials. Back aerial can also combo into itself from a down throw via RAR, which is an incredible option near the ledge. Of note, all of hit aerials can be used to score KO's; up, forward and back can all be used on stage, but all can be used off stage for fantastic effect. They all come out quickly, and are powerful (aside nair), with back air being frame 4 and is one of the strongest back airs in the entire game. In fact, most of his aerials chain into themselves. His ledge game is fearsome because of these points, and it is made only better by his fantastic jumps, and great recovery, which allows him to go deep or far out with ease. He prefers the air, you know? To top it off, he has a projectile, and a reflector, only giving his kit even more utility.

So, with all this, why isn't Falco top or high tier? He certainly has great tools and multiple options. Hit kit is fantastically well rounded, and has lots of options. Falco's weaknesses hold him back, however. While he has far less total weaknesses than total strengths, they are significant enough to keep him down. While he has lots of fantastic ground options, his sub par mobility prevents him from utilising them to full effect. This is only hampered further by his lack of a safe approach, as his projectile has lots of endlag and doesn't travel quick enough to warrant using it often. Falco has no real safe neutral game, and relies on the opponent making mistakes to get his damage and setups. This alone cripples Falco. While Falco is not bad, he can't ever be good unless his core problem, a neutral game. This alone holds him back significantly.

It's easy to gloss over weaknesses of a character, or, play them down. To be fair, I do think Falco is a relatively decent character, but I know his weaknesses hold him back.

I like you DMWN DMWN , you know exactly what you're on about and get straight to the point. However, you must be the only Lucas player I know who assumes that Lucas's positives outweigh his negatives. Of course, that's fine, you're allowed your own opinion, I'm not saying you can't think that, but let's look into it a bit more... I'm no pro Lucas player, but I think I can get a good grasp of the characters strengths and weaknesses. I'll have a go anyway...

By my reckoning, Lucas's ground moves are very useful. They are quick, and can be used most times in close quarters to beat most characters options, with jab and down tilt being frame 2 and 3 respectively. He also has a lot of disjointed hitboxes on at least half of his moveset, and of course, disjoints are a very cool thing to possess, and are always a help, increasing the safety of moves with said points. His smashes are among the strongest in the game, which is a great plus point. His grab, while the shortest reaching tether grab, is still one of the longest ranged grabs in the game, and he gets lots of reward from his grab. His down throw is a great combo starter, and while mixed DI can make follow ups hard, he has an option for each method of DI, which is great. His aerials are all relatively powerful, and damaging. Neutral air gets a special mention for being fantastic at being able to chain into itself, and thus, can be hard to tech due to multiple hits. Lucas also has projectiles, which are always helpful. PK Fire is great as a disrupter as it launches opponents away at an unfavourable angle, and if hit, can often win Lucas the stage control due to this. PK Thunder is a very controllable projectile that can force reactions and tack on damage along the way. He also has a zair/grab aerial, so this can also be used as an approach option and an alternate recovery option. PK Thunder 2 is long ranged and hard to interrupt when Lucas is on the move, giving Lucas a relatively strong recovery.

So, with all these strengths, why isn't Lucas so high on the tier list? He does possess flaws, and unfortunately, how I see it, they are enough to keep him back (though not to the same extent as say, Falco). To start with, despite him having powerful smashes, throws and KO options, they all have flaws. His smashes are all slow or punishable upon use, and his grab is punishable when missed, which is easy to bait out by staying in shield, and can be easily avoided by simply jumping, and the endlag is high enough to be punished upon whiffed. In fact, that brings me to another point. Good utilisation of PK Fire I feel is crucial to success with Lucas, but the problem lies here. It's laggy on start up, and laggy on endlag. Standard human reaction time is 13 frames. PK Fire comes out on frame 21, thus, is relatively easy to shield. Add onto this that the move has a FAF of 53, and you have one of your main spacing and baiting tools being one of the more punishable moves in your moveset. You can shield most of Lucas's main approach options, such as PK Fire, Thunder and Zair, to which has has little answer other than grab. And in a similar vein to characters like Roy (though not to the same extent), Lucas's lack of autocancels particularly harms his aerial approach options. His subpar mobility and further compounds to this. Another problem I find with Lucas is that his moves require a lot of precision; certain moves have sourspots that can hinder the overall potential of them. Up Air, while powerful, has a criminally small hitbox and timing. And while his ground attacks such as jab and down tilt are fast, they lack range, which forces Lucas to fight up close in such situations.

And there we go. Like I say, I'm no Lucas expert, but I can see his strengths and weaknesses clearly. His weaknesses seem enough to hold him back, but are luckily, not as detrimental or to the same extent as say Falco and Roy's weaknesses. I cannot for one minute see how a character with problems or issues such as these, be a tier 2 character as you implied before. Potentially a tier 3 character, maybe, but not tier 2.

I will just give my closing thoughts on Lucas: I honestly find Lucas to be rather underwhelming, but by no means bad. I feel he is at least mid tier. I'm personally quite happy with his placement right now (for a start, I think Kirby should be lower than Lucas, but that's for a different debate).
Thanks for summing up my point fantastically for the most part. That was really what I was trying to say. I don't think Lucas is bad but he has serious flaws that we can't just ignore.
 

Y2Kay

BLACK MAMBA FOREVER
Moderator
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
3,802
Location
Brooklyn, NY
NNID
Why2Kay
Everyone will see Lucas is a good character this year like everyone did with Mewtwo back then.

I'm just sayin'.
A lot of people will wait till that Lucas Main kicks everyone's butts to realize how good they are.

Hey I've been saying Mewtwo was top 15 material for like month at least, only now people don't think I'm insane

:150:
 
Top Bottom