Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Wintermelon43]

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Can you explain your Duck Hunt and Link votes?

 

[Dusk Pit]

Can you explain your Duck Hunt and Link votes?

Duck Hunt shouldn't move up because he isn't better than anyone above him. I have explained before but I guess once more.
1. DH has one of the worst recoveries in the game: it's slow, no hitbox and doesn't reach far.
2. His janky hitboxes really are a problem as they fail to connect more than they should.
3. His throws are bad, no kill throw or a proper combo throw.
4. The killing problem is real. No other character struggles more with killing than DH, which is bad in a game where your only goal is to get kills.
5. His projectiles are mediocre at best. Side b is very laggy, down b is just plain bad, only the can is good but even that can be used against DH.

Well he has good jab and uair but they don't change the fact that DH overall is a bad character who hasn't had buffs he needs.

And about Link, instead of me explaining why I think he isn't bad, I would like to hear why you think he is. I have explained this before and I really think he shouldn't be that low especially since Toon Link is way up there.

 

[lijero13ss]

+1 Luigi
+1 ROB
-1 Pikachu

 

[Wintermelon43]

Duck Hunt shouldn't move up because he isn't better than anyone above him. I have explained before but I guess once more.
1. DH has one of the worst recoveries in the game: it's slow, no hitbox and doesn't reach far.
2. His janky hitboxes really are a problem as they fail to connect more than they should.
3. His throws are bad, no kill throw or a proper combo throw.
4. The killing problem is real. No other character struggles more with killing than DH, which is bad in a game where your only goal is to get kills.
5. His projectiles are mediocre at best. Side b is very laggy, down b is just plain bad, only the can is good but even that can be used against DH.

Well he has good jab and uair but they don't change the fact that DH overall is a bad character who hasn't had buffs he needs.

And about Link, instead of me explaining why I think he isn't bad, I would like to hear why you think he is. I have explained this before and I really think he shouldn't be that low especially since Toon Link is way up there.

1.It's a little better than one of the worst, but otherwise correct.

2.The only jank hitboxes are his smashes, and those can connect a good amount anyway.

3.His throws are better than Cloud's though, and only a little worse than Bayonettas. He at least has down throw to forward air.

4.I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating that.

5.His projectiles are really good, actually. Can has great tricks and sheneagians, and can sometimes kill, also edgeguard. Side-B can get a good amount of damage when it hits, and is in general good.

He also has good dash attack, forward air, back air, neutral air, neutral special, and side special.

As for Link, he has bad frame data, is really slow, has bad recovery, many bad or terrible moves, and is just really bad in general. All of this stuff makes it hard for him to get damage too.

Also, Toon Link is so much better than Link that you can't really compare them to each other anymore.

 

[wedl!!]

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[L1N3R1D3R]

Can someone please enlighten me on why almost everyone thinks Cloud, and not Zero Suit, should be in top tier with Bayo and Rosa? I'm not against the idea, I just fail to see how it applies right now, especially after the up air and aerial Finishing Touch nerfs he got, where Zero Suit's nerfs didn't hurt her as much and she also got two (albeit small) undeniable buffs in B-throw and side B.

 

[Routa]

Can someone please enlighten me on why almost everyone thinks Cloud, and not Zero Suit, should be in top tier with Bayo and Rosa? I'm not against the idea, I just fail to see how it applies right now, especially after the up air and aerial Finishing Touch nerfs he got, where Zero Suit's nerfs didn't hurt her as much and she also got two (albeit small) undeniable buffs in B-throw and side B.

Finishing Touch was never that good of a kill move (at least in singles) and was outdone by Limit Side-B. He has best frame data of all Sword wielders. He has (2nd) greatest range of all characters. His Dair is godlike. Uair still beats most aerials that would normally beat Uairs (for example Swordfighter's Dair) etc.

I still believe that ZSS is up there. She is still very strong overall. It is just that you have to work just a bit more to get a kill.

Also gee what is up with these Zelda votes? You do realize that they didn't improve her game like at all? All the new "combos" were well known and were slightly harder to pull off.

 

[A10theHero]

That isnt how it works.

-3 will get you down one tier
-10 gets you down two tiers, but thats as low as you get. You can get -30, its still only down two tiers.

Is it similar in the opposite direction?
Like +5 is one tier and then +10 and greater is only at max up two tiers?

 

[.....]

I'm not telling you not to vote this way. I am simply interested in the reasoning behind this vote. Diddy Kong, in my opinion, completely deserves his spot in the top 5.

Then should I give a reason why I voted for said characters?

 

[Ze Diglett]

+1
-1
+1
+1
-1

 

[Deleted member]

lmao why are people upvoting Zelda when she's still a heap of garbage

 

[Xandercosm]

And why the heck are people down voting Mario? For god's sake could you freaking explain your reasoning before doing crazy votes?

 

[420quickscoper]

Mewtwo probably isn't low tier anymore, but it's hard to accept him being in high-mid tier. I mean, look at his buffs:

• Weight: 72 -> 74
• Run Speed: 1.9 -> 2.05
• Usmash Total Duration: 73F -> 68F
• Nair Multihit Hitbox Size: 2.3 -> 3.0

They're great buffs no doubt, especially the speed buff, but it's nothing game changing for him. He was a low/ low mid tier pre-patch, I find it difficult to put him all the way into top 20. Wario, Olimar (both whom are way too low), Lucario, ROB, and Yoshi are just a few off the top of my head that I would put higher than him. Putting him in tier 5 would put him at a solid mid-tier.

"Probably isn't a low tier anymore."
Yeah, probably can't even describe it. He's undoubtedly at least a mid tier.
I mean, it kind of is game changing. Even if it makes a little difference, it is a difference.
I think that Mewtwo as a character just screams that he's high tier.
People don't really look at all the things he has, and even I can't think of it all at the top of my head.

I think it's fine for where he is. He's a great character.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo probably isn't low tier anymore, but it's hard to accept him being in high-mid tier. I mean, look at his buffs:

• Weight: 72 -> 74
• Run Speed: 1.9 -> 2.05
• Usmash Total Duration: 73F -> 68F
• Nair Multihit Hitbox Size: 2.3 -> 3.0

They're great buffs no doubt, especially the speed buff, but it's nothing game changing for him. He was a low/ low mid tier pre-patch, I find it difficult to put him all the way into top 20. Wario, Olimar (both whom are way too low), Lucario, ROB, and Yoshi are just a few off the top of my head that I would put higher than him. Putting him in tier 5 would put him at a solid mid-tier.

Why should they all be higher than Mewtwo when especially characters like Wario have a worse MU spread?

 

[T4ylor]

- (minus)Her buffs didn't make her that much better of a character. She's still terrible.
- (minus)She's too weak to Cloud, whom is now the most played character, and Meta Knight to be number one.
+ (plus)More than capable of hanging around in the tier above him with his buffs and the top character's nerfs.
+ (plus)Objectively a worse Mario, but his frame data, KO power, and actual neutral means he shouldn't be lumped around trash.
+ (plus)Was gatekept by Sheik, like so many other characters, but now the match up isn't so bad. For now I think his viability is on par with Lucario, Pacman etc.

 

[NimbusSpark]

-1 Ike is in a pretty weird situation in terms of where he is placed in the tier list. Whilst I must agree he definitely has been getting the good results ever since Big House had several Ike's placing highly, in the long run he's going to go down. He lacks solid approach options due to a slow general movement speed with no projectiles whatsoever to mitigate that weakness, a linear and predictable recovery and a simple, fundamental play style which will in general not help him out in the long run as the meta evolves deeper. I just can't see him being up there with threats such as Luigi or Pac-Man later on through Smash 4's lifetime like he currently is.
+1 No one is really giving the King love anymore. He's got so much things going for him compared to others within his level it's somewhat surprising to see him as the 3rd worst character. He's got some excellent survivability outside of being comboed with his heavy weight and hard to punish recovery, a great game in the ledge and offstage and the access to one of the better suiciding tools in Smash 4. Also, compared to those around his level, he still has a greater amount of representation. Also, please don't turn this into a bandwagon where he just ends up in top tier. He's still got his flaws, he's just definitely not Bottom 3.
+1 The recent buffs have definitely been kinder to Greninja than ever. His standing grab was fixed in speed (Still waiting for you to fix Pac-Man's grab, Sakurai.), and in general he has been made as a character whom is more safer in the air. Coupled with the recently excellent results from iStudying and yeah, I'm pretty sure Greninja is going to go back to his former glory.
+1 The fact that Dr. Mario is still so low within the tier list just baffles me. As mentioned before, he's a worse version of Mario, no doubt. But remember, he's a worse version of Mario, a character who was stayed consistently as one of the strongest threats throughout Smash 4's lifetime. He's still different to Mario is some cases, more notably for the worse, but does that really warrant him to be so low?
-1 Yes, yes, I know, Bowser was buffed again this patch. Sure, he's faster. Sure, he's harder to steal a stock against. But Bowser is still a character with glaring flaws which are holding him back. He can't land reliably within getting punished for it. He's somewhat easier to combo with his increase of weight and his massive hurtbox. He lacks any notably fast frame data. What he has as his strengths are great, don't get me wrong, but if he were to go higher in the tier list in my opinion, he just needs something to mitigate his massive weaknesses.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Why should they all be higher than Mewtwo when especially characters like Wario have a worse MU spread?

Wario might (I say might cause I'm not well versed in Wario's stuff) have less winning match-ups than Mewtwo, but he has a way better time fighting the high tiers. Mewtwo's match-up spread is a lot like how Robin's has been for a while, has plenty of winning match-ups against fellow mid-tier characters but gets bodied hard by the top end of the cast. Like I said before he's definitely much higher on the tier list, but top 20 is pushing it.

Sorry if I seem adamant about this, but it just feels like we're basing this on theory. If I start seeing results than I'll be more than happy to support him being high tier. I mean hell, I used to main Falco, the king of theorycraft. I'm standing my ground on the other characters I mentioned.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Finishing Touch was never that good of a kill move (at least in singles) and was outdone by Limit Side-B. He has best frame data of all Sword wielders. He has (2nd) greatest range of all characters. His Dair is godlike. Uair still beats most aerials that would normally beat Uairs (for example Swordfighter's Dair) etc.

I still believe that ZSS is up there. She is still very strong overall. It is just that you have to work just a bit more to get a kill.

Cool. Thanks for being respectful, and I can understand his high placement now. Still think ZSS is #4 then, but feel free to disagree.

 

[420quickscoper]

Wario might (I say might cause I'm not well versed in Wario's stuff) have less winning match-ups than Mewtwo, but he has a way better time fighting the high tiers. Mewtwo's match-up spread is a lot like how Robin's has been for a while, has plenty of winning match-ups against fellow mid-tier characters but gets bodied hard by the top end of the cast. Like I said before he's definitely much higher on the tier list, but top 20 is pushing it.

Sorry if I seem adamant about this, but it just feels like we're basing this on theory. If I start seeing results than I'll be more than happy to support him being high tier. I mean hell, I used to main Falco, the king of theorycraft. I'm standing my ground on the other characters I mentioned.

He doesn't get bodied by the top half of the cast...?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
He's more than capable.
In fact he has a decent amount of winning matchups there like Cloud.
And he goes even with some, and the ones he loses are either a slight disadvantage or disadvantage.

 

[IndigoSSB]

He doesn't get bodied by the top half of the cast...?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
He's more than capable.
In fact he has a decent amount of winning matchups there like Cloud.
And he goes even with some, and the ones he loses are either a slight disadvantage or disadvantage.

By top end I meant the top tiers, not the top half. Basically tier 2 and up using the old community tier list.

 

[Deleted member]

By top end I meant the top tiers, not the top half. Basically tier 2 and up using the old community tier list.

He goes even with .

The only top tier matchups where he's outright bodied are and , probably . Even then the MK MU might be more manageable since he can't stairway us to heaven anymore.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

+ - Honestly I'm shocked (lol, no pun intended) at his placement right now. I know that there isn't a lot of rep for this character, but I can't be the only one who sees mad potential in Pika. Awesome frame data, potentially best edge guarding in the game, small hurtbox, great auto-cancels, and very little lag on most moves...I'd argue Pika is top 10 in terms of potential.
- - Really don't think he deserves a spot in the top 15. He's a good character but I just don't see it. His bombs can be used to kill him, his recovery is really predictable and linear, and his neutral isn't anything special.
- - He's an awesome character but I don't think he's better than Ryu, Sheik, ZSS, or Sonic. Without the banana his gameplan can really struggle. Also his exploitable recovery hurts his placement IMO.
+ - Still an amazing character despite her nerfs. Would still place her in top 4.
- - If not top 5, then certainly top 10. Though his recovery really hurts him. Ledge trumps, grab releases, and most edge-guarding can really hurt him. Also he doesn't have any ridiculously fast moves to break him out of combos. Just don't see him as a top 3 character.

 

[IndigoSSB]

He goes even with .

The only top tier matchups where he's outright bodied are and , probably . Even then the MK MU might be more manageable since he can't stairway us to heaven anymore.

In that case our opinions differ in his match-up spread, imo he loses to more top tier characters than that (namely Sheik and ZSS, I know they were nerfed, they win for the same reason they did pre-patch).

I'm not ready to hop on the Mewtwo bandwagon yet. As great as Mew^2 is there isn't enough results yet to convince me.

 

[Munomario777]

- - Really don't think he deserves a spot in the top 15. He's a good character but I just don't see it. His bombs can be used to kill him, his recovery is really predictable and linear, and his neutral isn't anything special.

I disagree. Tink's projectile game is a pretty big strength – it lets him control space, and catch his opponents off guard, mainly by throwing a bomb upward or throwing a boomerang behind the opponent. He's a great zoner / camper, and has a pretty solid neutral IMO because of this.

I don't see how "his bombs can be used to kill him." Yeah, it's possible, but from what I can gather, it's not often that the opponent A) manages to catch a bomb, B) manages to catch Tink off guard with it, and C) successfully Links it into a KO move, which I imagine players aren't particularly worried about practicing. Tink though is a master at projectile combos – returning boomerang into a smash attack can net you a kill if the foe is caught off guard (not that hard when you've got all his projectiles etc to worry about), bomb -> fair is guaranteed at kill %s, and both can be used to tack on extra damage after an attack.

His recovery isn't that bad either. Yeah, Spin Attack can be gimped, but you've also got a wall jump, Hookshot, and projectiles to keep your foe busy while you return. It's... not the best though.

The real thing holding him back IMO is his up close game, and his difficulty dealing with pressure. (And his recovery.)

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I disagree. Tink's projectile game is a pretty big strength – it lets him control space, and catch his opponents off guard, mainly by throwing a bomb upward or throwing a boomerang behind the opponent. He's a great zoner / camper, and has a pretty solid neutral IMO because of this.

I don't see how "his bombs can be used to kill him." Yeah, it's possible, but from what I can gather, it's not often that the opponent A) manages to catch a bomb, B) manages to catch Tink off guard with it, and C) successfully Links it into a KO move, which I imagine players aren't particularly worried about practicing. Tink though is a master at projectile combos – returning boomerang into a smash attack can net you a kill if the foe is caught off guard (not that hard when you've got all his projectiles etc to worry about), bomb -> fair is guaranteed at kill %s, and both can be used to tack on extra damage after an attack.

His recovery isn't that bad either. Yeah, Spin Attack can be gimped, but you've also got a wall jump, Hookshot, and projectiles to keep your foe busy while you return. It's... not the best though.

The real thing holding him back IMO is his up close game, and his difficulty dealing with pressure. (And his recovery.)

Fair enough, and great reply. The problem with Tink is, in my eyes, he relies on his projectiles a little too much. As you said, his up close game is a problem and I don't think a top 15 character should rely on something like that. Once an opponent gets in, Tink can have a hard time getting the enemy away. His grounded frame data is nothing to boast about. Perfect shields can also be pretty detrimental to Tink. He can't get bomb confirms, and opponents can get closer and closer bypassing his projectiles. And at high level play, the bombs have been, and will be used against him just as Diddy's banana can be used against him. If Tink can hit an opponent with a bomb and true combo that into his frame 14 fair, I don't see why another character wouldn't be able to do the same thing against Tink.

More importantly, if the enemy has a significant lead, Tink can be forced to approach, cause let's be honest here, shielding/jumping over his arrows and boomerang isn't difficult. In the event that Tink has to approach, I just don't see him excelling at that. His range, frame data, and overall options are mediocre at best. Yeah he has some pretty cool strings, combos, kill confirms and so on, but when it comes down to it, I don't think the way Tink plays is worthy of top 15. Hyuga has some excellent achievements, but at some point you have to start crediting the player over the character.

With that said, I could be wrong. I don't think my opinion on this matter is necessarily the "right" opinion, but it is the opinion I'm standing by for now. If/when proven wrong, I will acknowledge it, but until then.

 

[Munomario777]

Fair enough, and great reply. The problem with Tink is, in my eyes, he relies on his projectiles a little too much. As you said, his up close game is a problem and I don't think a top 15 character should rely on something like that. Once an opponent gets in, Tink can have a hard time getting the enemy away. His grounded frame data is nothing to boast about.

Yeah, that is his primary weakness, although I'm not 100% sure whether or not it'd hinder him as much as you're suggesting. (I'm not a particularly competitively-knowledgeable Smasher, so.)

Also worth noting is how his bombs can be thrown OoS, without shield-drop lag, or even help him escape combos / stuns by exploding in his hand at the right moment. It's not terribly consistent, but hey, it's something.

Perfect shields can also be pretty detrimental to Tink. He can't get bomb confirms, and opponents can get closer and closer bypassing his projectiles.

Power shielding multiple projectiles in a row, though, is no easy feat, which is what you'll have to do against Tink the way I'm seeing it.

And at high level play, the bombs have been, and will be used against him just as Diddy's banana can be used against him. If Tink can hit an opponent with a bomb and true combo that into his frame 14 fair, I don't see why another character wouldn't be able to do the same thing against Tink.

Tink's bombs, though, require a much more specific timing window to catch. Diddy's banana is just lying on the ground, but the bombs are always flying through the air. While yes, it is possible to practice this sort of thing, I don't imagine that a lot of players do. And unless the opponent has instant tossing down, the Tink player knows to be more cautious when they see that bomb in the foe's hands, maybe easily intercept it with a 'rang or another bomb (or by just standing there with his Hylian Shield). Also unlike the banana, bombs have a fuse, which leads to hasty actions from the foe – by the point they catch it, it's already got a couple of seconds off its fuse between Tink holding it and the bomb flying through the air. "Better act fast, or it'll blow up in your face!" Not a lot of time to strategize.

As for other characters being able to use bomb combos. I can't speak from experience here, but I'm not sure how well that may work out. One of the better, if trickier, setups, I find, is dashing JCT -> dash -> fair. The JCT (jump-cancel toss) is quite an irrelevant technique to the rest of the cast, so not many will probably have practiced it (let alone in this rare, specific combo). Plus, Tink's fair has good range on it compared to others, which helps. But of course there may very well be other bomb setups usable by other characters... I just think that the fuse and the unlikelihood of being practiced make it less of a concern to Tink.

More importantly, if the enemy has a significant lead, Tink can be forced to approach, cause let's be honest here, shielding/jumping over his arrows and boomerang isn't difficult. In the event that Tink has to approach, I just don't see him excelling at that. His range, frame data, and overall options are mediocre at best.

I think his projectiles give him a decent approach. His arrows are easily the weakest overall of his "Triforce" of projectiles, but boomerangs, bombs, and zair are great for making openings. While avoiding his projectiles individually may not be very hard, it's when he uses them all in conjunction with one another and his other moves that it gets trickier.

Yeah he has some pretty cool strings, combos, kill confirms and so on, but when it comes down to it, I don't think the way Tink plays is worthy of top 15. Hyuga has some excellent achievements, but at some point you have to start crediting the player over the character.

I've actually not seen Hyuga play much at all, mainly speaking from my experience with the character (who I'm maining along with Pika).

With that said, I could be wrong. I don't think my opinion on this matter is necessarily the "right" opinion, but it is the opinion I'm standing by for now. If/when proven wrong, I will acknowledge it, but until then.

*likes post*

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

+
-( Mac should be barely moved down, like 3 spots

 

[TimG57867]

- I've read what knowledgeable Meta Knight players have had to say, and the consensus amongst them is that this patch hit him harder than many want to admit. He's not trash now or anything and is probably still Top 20, but I don't think he has the jank or the ease of use that other characters in his tier and above have anymore. Sure people are finding new combos, but it seems a lot of these were likely possible last patch and just weren't looked into before since he could just Rufio. Heck, a quick a check of Japanese brackets shows Abadango is already starting to invest in his Mewtwo more. Like this for instance:
http://challonge.com/TUSTournament4T
- I think people are giving this guy a little too much credit. His results don't justify a placement this high and it's not like he has no player base. Tier 5 is where he belongs.
+ (Say what you want about DDD but tier lists incorporate results and DDD having actual placements at big tourneys like BEAST 6 and Genesis 3 gives him a big 1-UP over the Zelda tier which should really have Zelda herself put back)
+ (With surprisingly good performances at tourneys like BH5 and Glitch, I think he deserves to go up a tier)
+ (While I still feel Nario's performance with him was over-hyped, he objectively is probably better than this. He may have horrid mobility and recovery, but he still has lot of Mario's kit which is one of the strongest in the game and can distinguish himself with his OoS options and hard hitting moves. He may be worse than Mario but he's probably better than Tier 7.)

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can someone please enlighten me on why almost everyone thinks Cloud, and not Zero Suit, should be in top tier with Bayo and Rosa? I'm not against the idea, I just fail to see how it applies right now, especially after the up air and aerial Finishing Touch nerfs he got, where Zero Suit's nerfs didn't hurt her as much and she also got two (albeit small) undeniable buffs in B-throw and side B.

To be fair to the both of them, Cloud and ZSS's nerfs don't actually affect or change them up much at all. However, I also fail to see how Cloud should be up there if ZSS isn't. I think both of them are within the top 5 realm, but to me, Cloud just seems a lot more exploitable than ZSS. Sure, Cloud has very good range and fantastic power to boot, but he is rather exploitable. ZSS I feel is far less exploitable and demands much more respect on and off stage than Cloud, as being lax WILL get you punished. Cloud's nerfs just toned down his killing power in reality, which is still very strong. ZSS's nerfs just toned down her damage output. She can still finish you off at around 55% off of a grab, and still has by far one of the best recoveries in the game, tied in with arguably the best mobility in the game.

If we are going strictly off of the most recent patch though, Cloud got slight nerfs with no compensation. ZSS got slight nerfs but actually got a couple of useful buffs, such as Plasma Whip being no longer totally useless, and Nair's hitbox changes actually make it hit closer to the ground now, giving her a more reliable time in troublesome matchups such as Kirby, Jiggs and G&W. She still has all of her confirms, such as Nair to grab, Zair to grab, Paralyser, Dsmash into Flip Kick, Uair to Up B etc. Apparently, Nair to Flip Kick is now a new thing too, which is always nice.

In short, both characters are still very very good. I could perhaps understand a Sheik downvote, but a downvote to Cloud, more specifically ZSS, or them not being in the top 5 is unbelievable to me.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

The Doc love is beautiful

+1
-1

 

[420quickscoper]

In that case our opinions differ in his match-up spread, imo he loses to more top tier characters than that (namely Sheik and ZSS, I know they were nerfed, they win for the same reason they did pre-patch).

I'm not ready to hop on the Mewtwo bandwagon yet. As great as Mew^2 is there isn't enough results yet to convince me.

The worst one is Fox for me and that's just a disadvantage.
I think Mewtwo wins against MK actually, even some MK players consider him to be a bad matchup now.
How much do you even know about Mewtwo's matchup spread, because I don't know where you're getting your information from.

 

[Xandercosm]

The Doc love is beautiful

+1
-1

Again, I want to ask for an explanation. Why are you downvoting Mario? Is there a reason you don't think he should be in the top 10?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

So would a reasonable top tier at the moment be ? (Only putting above b/c Rosalina can get in much easier most of the time, where Bayonetta mostly relies on punishing the opponent's mistakes to start her offense.)

 

[DMWN]

And why the heck are people down voting Mario? For god's sake could you freaking explain your reasoning before doing crazy votes?

It's not up to you to decide when people have to justify what they're voting for.

 

[T4ylor]

TimG57867 Abadango switching mains doesn't really mean anything. He dropped Meta as his main the second 1.1.5 hit, because his play revolved entirely around his ladder combo, unlike the other top Meta Knights.

L1N3R1D3R I agree with Cloud, Bayonetta, and Zero Suit, but I'm not sure I'd put Rosalina up that high when Diddy and Sonic are potentially better than her. I just think her weakness to Cloud and Meta are too big to let her be grouped with him (Cloud) and Bayo.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Again, I want to ask for an explanation. Why are you downvoting Mario? Is there a reason you don't think he should be in the top 10?

Well, you are asking for an explanation, so mission accomplished.

I just think that other characters are better (Sonic, Fox, MK, Diddy, Villager, Pika, maybe Corrin), at least in terms of what they are capable of. Mario doesn't have much to justify a Top 10 position. Not fast enough (outside aerial mobility), poor range, difficulty in sealing stocks and meh neutral. Still a good character, but barely high tier.

Why does it bother you? It's a community tier list where votes are given for various reasons. Don't take it seriously.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So would a reasonable top tier at the moment be ? (Only putting above b/c Rosalina can get in much easier most of the time, where Bayonetta mostly relies on punishing the opponent's mistakes to start her offense.)

That in my opinion would be a reasonable and the most logical top 4 at this current moment, but I wouldn't say Rosalina is purely the top character, at all. Bayonetta doesn't have to totally rely on punishing mistakes, and her insane combos and death combos are enough to push her to the top if you ask me. Rosalina potentially at 2nd position in my opinion, which makes me think...

T T4ylor , Rosalina has more strengths and uses over both Sonic and Diddy. While Sonic and Diddy have suddenly become a lot more viable with the nerfing of Sheik, and seemingly being the best counters to Bayonetta, they still don't match the positives Rosalina has over the rest of the cast. The Rosalina v Meta Knight matchup is not as terrible anymore, after Meta Knight's nerfs either. The main reason that matchup was so terrible for Rosalina was the fact that Rosalina was so easy for Meta Knight to up air to death. With that being virtually removed, Rosalina has less to fear in that matchup. Meta Knight still has great ways of getting rid of Luma, but now lacks the fantastic punish he could go for when Luma was out of the equation. I see this matchup going from significantly in Meta Knight's favor, to potentially even, if not that, then around the 55:45 for Meta Knight. Rosalina is undoubtedly better than Diddy and Sonic. However, she still isn't the best character in the game.

Theoretically, Rosalina only really fears Cloud out of the potential top tiers now (but I even think that matchup is blown out of proportion. I think Cloud wins, sure, but Rosalina can do stuff to him that Cloud must fear/respect).

 

[TimG57867]

TimG57867 Abadango switching mains doesn't really mean anything. He dropped Meta as his main the second 1.1.5 hit, because his play revolved entirely around his ladder combo, unlike the other top Meta Knights.

L1N3R1D3R I agree with Cloud, Bayonetta, and Zero Suit, but I'm not sure I'd put Rosalina up that high when Diddy and Sonic are potentially better than her. I just think her weakness to Cloud and Meta are too big to let her be grouped with him (Cloud) and Bayo.

True. But regardless, MK definitely isn't as strong as he was before. Although how much this will hinder his performance at big tourneys remains to be seen.

 

[T4ylor]

Bowserboy3 Just curious, but have you played a good Meta Knight since the patch hit? Because Rayquaza said the match up is still the same since Rosa goes into tumble, so MK still has his combo on her.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 Just curious, but have you played a good Meta Knight since the patch hit? Because Rayquaza said the match up is still the same since Rosa goes into tumble, so MK still has his combo on her.

I know plenty of Meta Knight players, one of which happens to be my buddy (who ended up picking Meta Knight up just because I play Rosalina), and I feel the matchup is a hell of a lot easier now. Yes, Meta Knight still has virtually all of his specials and dash attack for dispatching Luma, but he's a whole lot less threatening when you are Luma-less now. I still think he wins, but not as easily as before.